post patch [04/30]: end-game play not fixed

[antisocialmunky]

It would be nice if the end game was actually fun - that the business of actually going from getting to the world domination stage to GOD EMPEROR OF MANKINDS isn't just a bunch of tedious grind.

Lots of Strategy Games have issues with this but some have solved it by adding in special win conditions. I just don't see ETW being able to implement anything truly interesting in the state its in right now. It would be awesome to be able to coordinate a massive alliance to fight another massive alliance liek hte Napoleonic Wars but the AI just isn't in a state to supply the player with any sort of meaningful coordinated challenge.

[Namarie22]

I frankly though, don't see much point in playing until they've reached some stability with the balancing..

Hate to start campaigns, then abandon because of patch (or, tear your hair out).. wonder if this is how it will be, or if there will be another patch shortly?

[Tully Bascombe]

I've had 3 crashes since the new patch came out, so in my opinion they fixed nothing.

[Slaists]

It would be nice if the end game was actually fun - that the business of actually going from getting to the world domination stage to GOD EMPEROR OF MANKINDS isn't just a bunch of tedious grind.

Lots of Strategy Games have issues with this but some have solved it by adding in special win conditions. I just don't see ETW being able to implement anything truly interesting in the state its in right now. It would be awesome to be able to coordinate a massive alliance to fight another massive alliance liek hte Napoleonic Wars but the AI just isn't in a state to supply the player with any sort of meaningful coordinated challenge.

Well, modders have had quite some success tweaking the diplomatic engine in the previous TW titles: AI does seem to form alliance blocks against the player in Broken Crescent for example.

One of the biggest gameplay drawbacks of the previous titles was that in order to win you really had to conquere most of the known world. It just did not leave enough space and resources for a meaningful counter-power developing. End-game was just that, as you mentioned just a tedious grind.

I believe, the idea of ETW was exactly to solve this problem by NOT making the player conquer the known world, but rather maintain his empire against other powers (or alliance of powers) of similar size and capability. The problem is: it's not happening in the game. Once the player has gotten his win condition 'assigned provinces', his economy is the most powerful in the game, while the AI is busy fighting each other and ruining their treasuries in decades old wars in which actually nothing is happening.

The latter is happening because the AI has suddenly (compared to the previous TW titles) lost ability to make peace with other AI factions.

[antisocialmunky]

Well, modders have had quite some success tweaking the diplomatic engine in the previous TW titles: AI does seem to form alliance blocks against the player in Broken Crescent for example.

One of the biggest gameplay drawbacks of the previous titles was that in order to win you really had to conquere most of the known world. It just did not leave enough space and resources for a meaningful counter-power developing. End-game was just that, as you mentioned just a tedious grind.

I believe, the idea of ETW was exactly to solve this problem by NOT making the player conquer the known world, but rather maintain his empire against other powers (or alliance of powers) of similar size and capability. The problem is: it's not happening in the game. Once the player has gotten his win condition 'assigned provinces', his economy is the most powerful in the game, while the AI is busy fighting each other and ruining their treasuries in decades old wars in which actually nothing is happening.

The latter is happening because the AI has suddenly (compared to the previous TW titles) lost ability to make peace with other AI factions.

The problem with ETW is that CA has never really throught overly hard about figuring out the end game. A lack of a definite direction...

I was always impartial to the late game alternate victorys. For ETW I could see a fun sort of economic victory condition based on relative incomes. As for the normal military domination, I wouldn't mind it if after certain thresholds are passed the game picks a few random factions reasonably far away and reasonably powerful and start giving them bonuses in diplo to each other, and to their economies so they eventaully ally against you in a giant bloc.

Of course my favorite late game victory condition was form Master of Orion 2 where you can travel to another Dimension and kill those hyper advanced Antarian bastards that have been attacking you FTW.

If this was a WWI game, I would suggest that when the player reaches about 80% domination, alien Tripods land and try to conquer the Earth.

[loony]

when you have a dominating position, the game has to become too easy. it has become very difficult to get that position, however.
I play as Poland-Lithuania and I am in trouble all the time for the first 20 turns (VH/VH, of course :))
Pre-patch I played GB and it was a cakewalk...

It is, however, unfortunate that the only way to make the game challenging is to make money so scarce. I have been fighting with the worst and most boring units all the time; no fancy cavalry, no fancy guns, no nothing... Militias and pikement slugging it out with general's bodyguard...

[Mr Frost]

I think one problem is having a tech tree {and building system} that even poor players can "max out" before the game ends {and easily at that} .
Indeed , at present by 1/3 of the way into a campaign , many {probably most} players have typically managed to achieve a comfortable technological lead over most other factions and certainly have a clear , even dominating , lead by mid game .

It should be that without cheating or modding , the player simply cannot complete the entire tech tree , but if He/She focuses sufficiently on some aspects of it , can finish some branches {though it should be a narrow thing and the technologies that are neglected should have an effect that is realistic} .

In reality , much on the end of the tech tree was actually early 19th century {for the steam block ships , 3 decades into it !} and some of the early tech was already in common use .
The tech tree needs a massive overhaul {it wouldn't be hard as it was a century of tremendous change and advancement in so many areas} and could probably use a number of new technology catagories {there seems to be room in the U.I.} such as "The Arts" for example {which would share the same tab as Philosophy} .

The way extra schools etc give bonuses to research could use overhaul : they seem to be adding too many extra research points for each extra school {from a game ballance perspective} and simply having many extra schools would still allow a much expanded tech tree to be completed without addressing this .
Perhaps altering it so the effects of having say 10 schools with 20-30 gentlemen spread evenly throughout them isn't quite so dramatically superior to having only 1 school with 3-5 genltemen in it would be fitting in such a redesigned system and each extra gentleman/scholar in a given school should add some research points to developing any specific tech , even if only by a tiny degree {I'm not sure that is allways the case at the moment} .

Gentlemen should only spawn in provincial capitals if that faction has no school {I've seen them spawn on schoolless islands for example} as there is no way the A.I. could be efficient in the way that is handled and/or be able to do research in capitals {at a serious penalty to their research} .
The best option here might be they only spawn in schools unless there are none and then only in the national capital {and mabey a cities with an observatory} in which they can research but only at half the rate they would in a school {again , spreading gentlemen out thin on many techs at once shouldn't be too much better than concentrating them on only one or a few techs at a time ... certainly not enough to make schoolspam an endgame easymode} .
Also the dueling feature is a bit silly {for many reasons} and stealing research needs serious work {currently it is a touch cheesy ; we need an elegant feature for a more civilized game} . Certainly the A.I. doesn't seem to be using their gentlemen very well , having them roaming around the countryside so much that they would be far better off never letting them set foot outside their own schools ! They need an overhaul themselves .




This all put together would still allow a player to focus on whatever they considered vital techs and , should they be willing to accept the penaties for neglecting other technology developments , allow them to develop technologies that didn't arrive until the next century {like steam driven warships , precussion cap firearms and rifled cannon ; or instead social advances etc} or merely advance all knowledges equally to a degree roughly equal to historical developments but never finish all the research trees and thus never reach a point where schools are no longer needed {and indeed become liabilities that get destroyed and replaced with other buildings which the A.I. wont do} nor achieve a point where it is literally impossible for an A.I. faction to hold a technological lead over them !

[Ardri]

Mr Frost, I agree totally with the fact that the tech tree should not be able to be completed. This would also add variety to the factions as some factions could be better at researching one line as opposed to another line of techs making some factions geared toward military prowess or others industrial powers. Not only would this bring variety to the game, it would also make it possible for countries to ally based on need. Say an industrial nation knows it cannot match a more militaristic nation on the battlefield so it allies with a militaristic nation to fill the need and militaristic nations could ally with industrial nations to help support their economies. It could ally for the creation of alliances based on need and necessity. The technological aspect of ETW definitely needs a bit of an overhaul if the game is to remain insteresting through the later stages.

[AussieGiant]

I'd just like to state for the record here and now that:

You are all arguing for the game to be made harder.

If in fact that does happen, can I quote you all liberally and be able to attribute these current quotes as "wanting to make the game harder" and therefore you all forgo the ability to complain that the game has become too hard in future?

[Slaists]

I'd just like to state for the record here and now that:

You are all arguing for the game to be made harder.

If in fact that does happen, can I quote you all liberally and be able to attribute these current quotes as "wanting to make the game harder" and therefore you all forgo the ability to complain that the game has become too hard in future?

Signed!