Twenty years after the wall

[Hosakawa Tito]

It's hard to believe that the 20th anniversary of the dismantling of the Berlin Wall is this month. A symbol of all that divided East & West, seemingly impregnable and permanent. And then the wall & barbed wire, and the barriers it stood for, was destroyed. It was certainly the most momentous event to occur in Europe since the collapse of the Nazi Empire.

By the end of May 1989 the Goddess of Democracy statue was unveiled a continent away in Tiananmen Square, Beijing.

Soviet troops withdraw from Afghanistan after a nine year occupation.

The Communist Party of Poland voted to legalize Solidarity, the independent trade union that spawned a huge social movement.

In 1989 it was possible to speak of a "peace dividend", when, according to the tenets of the New World Order, all the money that had gone into military spending could suddenly be invested in social spending or reducing the budget deficit. So much for that theory, eh?

Now, in a different era, we face the challenge of remembering and commemorating the demise of one of the great symbols of tyranny.

1989, freedom's spring.

[Vuk]

Let me beat my Hungarian friends to it and mention that Hungary played a leadership role in making this possible for the rest of the world. Their shed blood earned them freedoms and loosened the power of the government enough that it made a decision to let thousands of East Germans out of the bloc, thus making the wall effectively useless as it could easily be circumvented. This led to the East German boss eventually having to resign and move to Chile.

[Hosakawa Tito]

Yes, the wall's demise began with the removal of miles of barbed wire separating Hungary from Austria.

[Vuk]

Yes, the wall's demise began with the removal of miles of barbed wire separating Hungary from Austria.

But after that at a 'PanEuropean picnic' several EGs escaped. When EGs still in East Germany heard about this they flocked to the West German embassy in Budapest and eventually camped out in Buda being fed by charity. The Hungarian government ended up opening the border for them and letting them leave without exit visas or any proper documentation. When EGs still in EG heard about this, even more came and there was a mass exodus.

EDIT: oh yeah, and not just barbed wire, but mines as well.

[CountArach]

This is yet another example of the triumph of the people over their governments who would wish to keep them in their place. We should not forget those in the East who risked everything to fight for their right to free movement and simple, basic human rights.

[Incongruous]

This is yet another example of the triumph of the people over their governments who would wish to keep them in their place. We should not forget those in the East who risked everything to fight for their right to free movement and simple, basic human rights.

Well, perhaps, but simple people power does not work, as those who were brave enough to pick up a gun in '56 know...

The entire world watched as the Hungarian people rose up against communism, did nothing and let them get crushed by the furious Russian response. People power can not ever do anything alone, people power had to wait decades before the idiocy of soviet communism became hard reality and the entire joke came tumbling down.

I had quote in my sig sometime time ago, went something like

"the first crack in the Berlin wall, began with a hole in a flag in Hungary"

Much good the end of communism has done, well there is no more torture I think, but the country is still nothing but a sink hole, pathetic how improvement seems to have left Hungary behind.

[Vuk]

Well, perhaps, but simple people power does not work, as those who were brave enough to pick up a gun in '56 know...

The entire world watched as the Hungarian people rose up against communism, did nothing and let them get crushed by the furious Russian response. People power can not ever do anything alone, people power had to wait decades before the idiocy of soviet communism became hard reality and the entire joke came tumbling down.

I had quote in my sig sometime time ago, went something like

"the first crack in the Berlin wall, began with a hole in a flag in Hungary"

Much good the end of communism has done, well there is no more torture I think, but the country is still nothing but a sink hole, pathetic how improvement seems to have left Hungary behind.

The problem is that when Hungary transitioned it allowed direct foriegn investment and lost everything. They should have used indirect foriegn investment so that everything stayed in Hungarian hands. Also, there are so many socialist elements left over.

[Incongruous]

Indeed, commies are everywhere and the place is run by idotic scumbags...

[Sarmatian]

The problem is that when Hungary transitioned it allowed direct foriegn investment and lost everything. They should have used indirect foriegn investment so that everything stayed in Hungarian hands. Also, there are so many socialist elements left over.

I don' think that's the problem. The problem is that Hungary doesn't have any industry to speak of and has a considerable debt...

You can't build economy on shopping malls and banks...

[Vuk]

I don' think that's the problem. The problem is that Hungary doesn't have any industry to speak of and has a considerable debt...

You can't build economy on shopping malls and banks...

Sure, Szeged lost its industry with Trianon, but that does not mean that it could not make more. In fact, it started to develop industry under the socialist regime, but the socialism just was not sustainable and the country got into huge debt. The problem is then that it opened its assets to direct foriegn investment and a lot of investors bought the industry up just to close it down to make sure that it did not become competition. The country was hungry for its own industry and plenty of investors would have been willing to invest MONEY in Hungarian businesses through bonds and such (as no Hungarians had money of their own after years of socialism). Right now foriegn companies are not going to build industry to compete with their own and there are more profitable places for them to build branches, that is why industry is not developing. The mistake was using direct foriegn investment instead of indirect foriegn investment. The socialism elements left over in society now are making sure that no one has enough money to start their own up, which is why I mentioned them.

EDIT: and where did the debt come from BTW?

[Caius]

was opened on 9 November 1989.

It was in November or May?

[Fragony]

Kinda funny that this hardly gets any attention here. Not very surprising though, people could get reservations about socialism.

[CountArach]

Kinda funny that this hardly gets any attention here. Not very surprising though, people could get reservations about socialism.

Errr, in the rather Conservative country of Australia we get no coverage either...

[Scurvy]

There is likely to be more coverage in November.

[Louis VI the Fat]

I'm afraid the wall came down in November 1989. Hence the lack of coverage. No leftist conspiracy.

The cracks in the Iron Curtain started twenty years ago in spring and summer. In China, democratic demonstrations took place this month. In South Africa, the end of apartheid was announced.

The year is more important than exact months or dates. 1989 was a true Annus Mirabilis. The greatest year since 1789. The end of history, the end of that wretched short European century of 1914-1989.

[Fragony]

Errr, in the rather Conservative country of Australia we get no coverage either...

This is a big thing for Europe, not for Australia. The greatest historical event I had to pleasure to see with my own eyes even if I was too young to understand it's significance, the end of an era, the victory of individual freedom over ABSOLUTE CONTROL. But our socialists still can't come to terms with the fact that the great leap forward and the cultural revolution aren't the best thing that ever happened to China and that it wasn't Gorbatjov who won the cold war.

These things need time.

[Fragony]

I'm afraid the wall came down in November 1989.

The year is more important than exact months or dates.

ahum.

It's now time for the exams, kids are rolling from the assemblyline of the red machine as we speak to be further indoctrinated with leftist propaganda on universities, I bet there isn't a single question in the exams about the wall.

[CountArach]

The right-wing of this forum never ceases to amuse me

[Fragony]

The right-wing of this forum never ceases to amuse me

Ask any dutchie on our forums if our educational system could just be little biased. You wouldn't believe it.

[Vuk]

The right-wing of this forum never ceases to amuse me

Another stunningly brilliant and substantial post from the left. Foreign idea, why don't you criticize his argument instead of him? If you are not going to criticize a relevant point in the thread, you should not just post for the sake of attacking someone and taking the thread off course.

[Scurvy]

ahum.

It's now time for the exams, kids are rolling from the assemblyline of the red machine as we speak to be further indoctrinated with leftist propaganda on universities, I bet there isn't a single question in the exams about the wall.

I don't know about elsewhere, but in the UK GCSE and A level both have options for the Cold War - most of which end in 1989, and the OCR GCSE certainly has a section on themes, including the Cold War and fall of the Wall (something like 1945-1997).

Children are of course properly taught of the evils of capitalism in other subjects.

As a side note, educational systems are always biased from any point of view - for example I was taught (as an example) that Stalinism was the natural consequence of Communism, something I now completely disagree with - it's just what my teacher thought. Especially in subjects with 'subjective' or opinion-related answers, bias is always present, but it can go either way.

[Fragony]

Another stunningly brilliant and substantial post from the left. Foreign idea, why don't you criticize his argument instead of him? If you are not going to criticize a relevant point in the thread, you should not just post for the sake of attacking someone and taking the thread off course.

Thank you Vuk. Do you ever wonder why the euro youngsta's are so violently anti-american? You must think what did we do wrong! It's everything they know, it is everything that is taught to them. In Flemish schoolbooks for toddlers for example you have this villain that sounds exactly like 'Dow Jones' when you read it out loud, I don't know about you but that qualifies as sublimal messages to me. In history classes we are taught that, ah well a lot of vietnam veterans here I really don't want them to be disgusted to much by us euro's but think village burn kill them all. Brainwashing pure and simple, teach them to be ashamed and afraid when they are young and you can fit them right in into the collective.

[CountArach]

Another stunningly brilliant and substantial post from the left. Foreign idea, why don't you criticize his argument instead of him? If you are not going to criticize a relevant point in the thread, you should not just post for the sake of attacking someone and taking the thread off course.

What is his argument?

[Fragony]

What is his argument?

What you responded to

[CountArach]

ahum.

It's now time for the exams, kids are rolling from the assemblyline of the red machine as we speak to be further indoctrinated with leftist propaganda on universities, I bet there isn't a single question in the exams about the wall.

1) Teachers teach to a syllabus - why should they change the syllabus for just one year?
2) Why do you assume that the Left wished the wall stayed up. Most of the Left is socially liberal... and The Wall represents everything opposed to that idea.
3) You are basing your entire argument on conjecture and the experiences of yourself, not actual sources.
4) Why should I feel it necessary to actually pose these questions when you dismiss public education as "the red machine"? That shows a complete lack of commitment to serious discussion/debate.

[Louis VI the Fat]

I predict that by this November, the vast leftist ABSOLUTE CONTROL of Dutch society will have been defeated.

Freedom to the Netherlands will have been restored. And then, this November, at last, the Dutch media and education will finally be free to devote massive attention to the twentieth anniversary of the fall of the Wall.





I just had a vision. I predict that the vast leftist stranglehold on Dutch society will collapse exactly on the Ninth of November. Mark my words.

[Fragony]

1) Teachers teach to a syllabus - why should they change the syllabus for just one year?
2) Why do you assume that the Left wished the wall stayed up. Most of the Left is socially liberal... and The Wall represents everything opposed to that idea.
3) You are basing your entire argument on conjecture and the experiences of yourself, not actual sources.
4) Why should I feel it necessary to actually pose these questions when you dismiss public education as "the red machine"? That shows a complete lack of commitment to serious discussion/debate.

Well I would be willing to explain why I detest socialism, any idealism kinda detests me. Why would you dislike socialism when everything goes right, perfect society, but so are all utopian theory's. But I wouldn't call it very realistic. Idealism went a bit too far though, a good smack around the head I just deserved at times. Too much. Lately saw about the Australian immigration policy, that is harsh even by my standards by the way.

[CountArach]

Well I would be willing to explain why I detest socialism, any idealism kinda detests me. Why would you dislike socialism when everything goes right, perfect society, but so are all utopian theory's. But I wouldn't call it very realistic. Idealism went a bit too far though, a good smack around the head I just deserved at times. Too much. Lately saw about the Australian immigration policy, that is harsh even by my standards by the way.

Way to address the points I was trying to make...

May I take that as permission to go on laughing at the Right?

[Adrian II]

I'm afraid the wall came down in November 1989. Hence the lack of coverage. No leftist conspiracy.

The cracks in the Iron Curtain started twenty years ago in spring and summer. In China, democratic demonstrations took place this month. In South Africa, the end of apartheid was announced.

The year is more important than exact months or dates. 1989 was a true Annus Mirabilis. The greatest year since 1789. The end of history, the end of that wretched short European century of 1914-1989.

I wish we had teachers like you in The Neds. Sound knowledge goes a long way toward stimulating kids to think for themselves. Without it, you get the sort of conspiracy nonsense that abounds in this thread. Boring.

[Fragony]

May I take that as permission to go on laughing at the Right?

If you must. It's like I have always said, the left needs a miracle the right needs patience. Laugh all you want.