Twenty years after the wall

[Vuk]

So where he said right wing nationalists started ethnic cleansing after the wall came down, you took this as him calling right wingers nazis ?!

because im sorry to tell you the nazi regime fell some 45 years prior...

First of all, I misread his post and I apologize. Second of all, it does not matter when the regime went down, because a Nazi is a Nazi is a Nazi, whether they are in power or not.

[LittleGrizzly]

Ok, but he didn't mention nazis whatsoever, you seem to be the only person mentioning nazis and assigning them to one paticular brand of politics or another... anyway drifting a little off topic here...

[Adrian II]

OK, I'll be this thread's loser and say 'Godwin'.

Now can we get back on track, sweethearts?

[Evil_Maniac From Mars]

Don't I know it? But we have to stop meeting his way, mon vieux, already people are looking at us. ... and the Right is blind. Nice couple, picture them in the dark room on a Friday night.

If it is a dark room, it doesn't matter that the right is blind but it matters very much that the left is perverted.

[Rhyfelwyr]

If it is a dark room, it doesn't matter that the right is blind but it matters very much that the left is perverted.

Only if you're the right.

[Evil_Maniac From Mars]

For my contribution to the debate, where I went to school the schooling was without a doubt biased towards the left (in the subjects you notice it in, namely the humanities) simply because those teachers tended to be left-wing. The only question was whether you got a teacher who was tolerant of right-wing viewpoints and respected them or if you got a teacher who wasn't. Fortunately, few teachers were in the former category.

Only if you're the right.

Well, yes and no...

[Adrian II]

If it is a dark room, it doesn't matter that the right is blind but it matters very much that the left is perverted.

Blind people are usually very tactile.

[CountArach]

Both Nazi Germany and the USSR were socialist countries. It is the left that is supporting socialism today.

Would you care to support that argument or is it simply fact because you stated it as such?

[Incongruous]

Would you care to support that argument or is it simply fact because you stated it as such?

Would you care to disprove it?

[LittleGrizzly]

Would you care to disprove it?

Well for starters the left doesn't support socialism and the USSR isn't a country, thats the complicated part out the way the rest is obviously wrong too... though deserving of a different topic!

[Evil_Maniac From Mars]

Well for starters the left doesn't support socialism

This is new...

In contemporary political discourse, the term the Left usually means either social liberal or socialist. The term is also used to describe social democracy and most forms of anarchism.

[LittleGrizzly]

Probably for another topic but i wouldn't really say we have a major socialist party, that used to be the domain of the labour party, but they shifted, and the general consesus is the centre ground did shift to the right, so that would mean the left is now partly the old centre, which wasn't really socialist... and generally among partys considered left wing they don't seem very socialist to me... but i may just be thinking to much into my own interpretation of the labels...

anyway all very off topic...

[Fragony]

Some brilliant conspiracy stuff in here, thanks frag needed a laugh.

No conspiracy, just people unsure of what their opinion should be and playing it safe just to be sure. Despite the wall comming down being one of the most important events in history it does not, and will not, get the coverage it deserves because of the suffocating social control within the leftist church and the terrible fate that is being excommunicated.

[CountArach]

Would you care to disprove it?

Ahem

the left is now partly the old centre, which wasn't really socialist... and generally among partys considered left wing they don't seem very socialist to me... but i may just be thinking to much into my own interpretation of the labels...

anyway all very off topic...

Yeah that's your interpretation. I, for one, consider myself something of a more Orthodox, old-style Socialist. Then again, as you say this is all off topic.

[Incongruous]

Ahem

...

I don't care about "the burden of proof", I care about your disproval and his (Vuk's) defence.

[CountArach]

...

I don't care about "the burden of proof", I care about your disproval and his (Vuk's) defence.

Hence the need for Burden of Proof. I can't be asked to affirm a negative position - he must provide the positive position and then I shall attempt to provide the counter-reasoning.

[Incongruous]

Oh come off it, he said that Nazis and Commies were socialists, that was enough for you to decide that a one liner was needed, so you clearly think he's talking bollox, so have at it.

You can confirm your position which is clearly at odds with his, if not then say so. say "yes I CA agree with Vuk", I will be on hand with tissues.

[CountArach]

Oh come off it, he said that Nazis and Commies were socialists, that was enough for you to decide that a one liner was needed, so you clearly think he's talking bollox, so have at it.

But what is there to refute? Just a statement without sources - he clearly is not/has never been willing to engage in some sort of intellectual debate on ideology; so what would be the point in me doing so? As soon as I see a single source come from him, I will be open to discussion.

[Fragony]

That is why Pim Fortuyn was excommunicated by the leftist church, it was a big NEIN to point out that the blessings of the social democracy were actually introduced by the german occupiers, even to fellow historians. Some things are just best left unspoken.

[Scurvy]

Economically Nazi Germany had some Socialist influences - government had high control over industry, price and wage controls, and following 1929, much government invesment in public infrastructure...

but Socilaism essentially aims to eliminate inequality, something Nazism cleary was not aiming to do.

The fact that the Nazi's were widely opposed to Marxists in Germany pre-election - maybe the most clear demonstration that they opposed socialism.

Both were authoritarian.

[Vuk]

Economically Nazi Germany had some Socialist influences - government had high control over industry, price and wage controls, and following 1929, much government invesment in public infrastructure...

but Socilaism essentially aims to eliminate inequality, something Nazism cleary was not aiming to do.

The fact that the Nazi's were widely opposed to Marxists in Germany pre-election - maybe the most clear demonstration that they opposed socialism.

Both were authoritarian.

So if they do the same thing, but claim to be doing different things, then they are different things? Ok, I see how that works...not

[CountArach]

So if they do the same thing, but claim to be doing different things, then they are different things? Ok, I see how that works...not

Are you going to post a source for your earlier claim soon?

[Fragony]

Economically Nazi Germany had some Socialist influences - government had high control over industry, price and wage controls, and following 1929, much government invesment in public infrastructure...

but Socilaism essentially aims to eliminate inequality, something Nazism cleary was not aiming to do.

The fact that the Nazi's were widely opposed to Marxists in Germany pre-election - maybe the most clear demonstration that they opposed socialism.

Both were authoritarian.

You just made this less fun I hope you realise that

[Vuk]

Are you going to post a source for your earlier claim soon?

Not a chance.
I am packing up and getting ready to leave, and am far too busy for a big debate. Don't worry, I will be back in the States on Sunday.

[Rhyfelwyr]

The Nazi's were economically left-wing. They were socially right-wing. Which one of those is it that we remember them for?

[Vuk]

The Nazi's were economically left-wing. They were socially right-wing. Which one of those is it that we remember them for?

I would argue that with you.

[CountArach]

I would argue that with you.

[Fragony]

Well I will do it then, what is socially rightwing about the nazi's?

[Vuk]

Well I will do it then, what is socially rightwing about the nazi's?

It was their welfare...erm...no.
It must have been their authoritarian control...erm...no.
It MUST have been the concentration camps and the mass murder! ... erm...no!
What exactly about it WAS right wing? That I would love to hear!

EDIT: I FIGURED IT OUT! It was their support of abortion and gun control and their insistence on equality of condition rather than equality of opportunity! Oh wait, gosh darnnit, those are actually leftist social policies.

[CountArach]

It must have been their authoritarian control...erm...no.
It MUST have been the concentration camps and the mass murder! ... erm...no!

Allow me to channel Tribsey for a moment...

You DON'T consider those right-wing...?

I am afraid there clearly isn't any point in arguing with you...

EDIT: I'm still bemused/amused by this... Could you care to explain what your ideas of a right-wing Social policy are?