Our well-paid idiots in the House of Representatives just passed a resolution condemning the crackdown in Iran. Well, that will make everything better then, won't it? [/sarcasm]
Meanwhile, since President Obama is not willing to play villain for the mullahs, they've been stretching out, looking for other people to blame everything on. Britain is declared the most evil country in the world, which sounds waaaay too ambitious for modern-day Britannia. Also there are unconfirmed reports that state-run Iranian TV is recycling clips from Fox News to show their people what a war-mongering, hateful country we are. Glenn Beck is Imadinnerjacket's useful idiot. Who knew?
The Supreme Leader decides to double-down on his regime, and instead of throwing Ahmadinejad under the bus, as I predicted, he's trying to focus outrage on Rafsanjani by giving him a poisoned kiss. Complicated stuff.
Iran has sought independence and some form of democracy for over a century. It now has the former but this election has clarified, for an overwhelmingly young population, the Islamic Republic’s utter denial of the latter.
The feeling in the crowd seems to be: today or never, all together and heave!
A man holds his mobile phone up to me: footage of a man with his head blown off last Monday. A man, 28, whispers: “The government will use more violence, but some of us have to make the sacrifice.”
Another whisper: “Where are you from?” When I say the United States, he says: “Please give our regards to freedom.”
Meanwhile, since President Obama is not willing to play villain for the mullahs, they've been stretching out, looking for other people to blame everything on. Britain is declared the most evil country in the world, which sounds waaaay too ambitious for modern-day Britannia. Also there are unconfirmed reports that state-run Iranian TV is recycling clips from Fox News to show their people what a war-mongering, hateful country we are. Glenn Beck is Imadinnerjacket's useful idiot. Who knew?
]
I laugh in the Mullahs face, any excuse to divert the failings of their radical and oppressive regime.
They'll get what's coming to them soon enough. Even if this revolution does get stomped out, do these mad men think the world will tolerate a nuclear Iran?
See ya in about 5 years Ayatollah Ali Khamenei, I'm counting down the days till we see your head on a silver plater.
Last edited by tibilicus; 06-19-2009 at 19:38.
"A lamb goes to the slaughter but a man, he knows when to walk away."
Our well-paid idiots in the House of Representatives just passed a resolution condemning the crackdown in Iran. Well, that will make everything better then, won't it? [/sarcasm]
The House 405-1 voted in favor of the following statement:
RESOLUTION
Expressing support for all Iranian citizens who embrace the values of freedom, human rights, civil liberties, and rule of law, and for other purposes.
Resolved, That the House of Representatives—
(1) expresses its support for all Iranian citizens who embrace the values of freedom, human rights, civil liberties, and rule of law;
(2) condemns the ongoing violence against demonstrators by the Government of Iran and pro-government militias, as well as the ongoing government suppression of independent electronic communication through interference with the Internet and cellphones; and
(3) affirms the universality of individual rights and the importance of democratic and fair elections.
There's nothing there that I have a problem with. It's short, direct, and doesn't take sides.
For some more reading, here is an interview with Mousavi spokesperson, Mohsen Makhmalbaf, who recently spoke to members of th EU parliament,
"Don't believe everything you read online."
-Abraham Lincoln
The last two points are fine. I don't see how you can see the first as anything else then support for the protesters.
When it occurs to a man that nature does not regard him as important and that she feels she would not maim the universe by disposing of him, he at first wishes to throw bricks at the temple, and he hates deeply the fact that there are no bricks and no temples
-Stephen Crane
I see that only Ron Paul had the guts to vote against it. Whatever, I suppose it doesn't matter; the mullahs want to put a face on the enemy, and that's Obama. As long as he plays it cagey they're out of luck.
-edit-
Dr. Paul's statement: "I have admired President Obama’s cautious approach to the situation in Iran and I would have preferred that we in the House had acted similarly. I adhere to the foreign policy of our Founders, who advised that we not interfere in the internal affairs of countries overseas. I believe that is the best policy for the United States, for our national security and for our prosperity. I urge my colleagues to reject this and all similar meddling resolutions."
I hate to say it, but some commentators and politicians seem to be opposing the President's course because he's Obama, and not because they've given any strategic thought to reality.
Hear hear. American-Iranian history has been so poisonous that taking sides and applying US pressure woudl have only averse effects upon the present movement for more democracy. Obama is doing the right thing. I think his 'Twitter move' proves that the US are working behind the scenes, but very very carefully.
The bloody trouble is we are only alive when we’re half dead trying to get a paragraph right. - Paul Scott
Good analysis from an anonymous Iranian here, with this heartening (and chilling) detail:
[A]s the general crowds spread into their homes militia style Mousavi supporters were out on the streets 'Basiji hunting'.
Their resolve is no less than these thugs -- they after hunting them down. They use their phones, their childhood friends, their intimate knowledge of their districts and neighbours to plan their attacks -- they're organised and they're supported by their community so they have little fear. They create the havoc they're after, ambush the thugs, use their Cocktail Molotovs, disperse and re-assemble elsewhere and then start again - and the door of every house is open to them as safe harbour -- they're community-connected.
The Basiji's are not.
These are not the students in the dorms, they're the street young -- they know the ways better than most thugs - and these young, a surprising number of them girls, are becoming more agile in their ways as each night passes on.
It was 4pm at Vanak Square in Tehran, and people were protesting against the election results. The riot police were standing in front of us.
Suddenly the police started to run towards us, with their black helmets and batons they were so scary. Some people escaped and some others ran towards them and threw stones.
As we were running down Vali Asr Avenue, a young man fell on the ground. I saw that, as he was there a soldier reached him and started beating him in the back with the baton. He shouted and cried for help. I ran towards the soldier and punched him in the face. The young man managed to escape.
As I tried to escape two other soldiers were behind me. They cornered me. I didn't have any way of escaping. They started beating me like hell, and the one that I'd punched also came in.
The three of them hit me at least 50 times. One of them grabbed me and tried to push me on the ground. The punched one tried to beat me in the face and I had to protect it with my left hand.
As people saw this, they threw stones at them. Fortunately a big one hit one of them in back, and I managed to push him and run like hell.
I didn't even dare to go to hospital because they might easily catch you there. I've been taking painkillers just to able to sleep.
When the people don't even trust the doctors...
Rest in Peace TosaInu, the Org will be your legacy
Originally Posted by Leon Blum - For All Mankind
Nothing established by violence and maintained by force, nothing that degrades humanity and is based on contempt for human personality, can endure.
That is twisting things. There's a good chance there's police / security services / revolutionary guard keeping watch, so even if the medical staff don't say anything (and OK, they might be informants in Iran) you'll still be picked up.
An enemy that wishes to die for their country is the best sort to face - you both have the same aim in mind. Science flies you to the moon, religion flies you into buildings.
"If you can't trust the local kleptocrat whom you installed by force and prop up with billions of annual dollars, who can you trust?" Lemur
If you're not a liberal when you're 25, you have no heart. If you're not a conservative by the time you're 35, you have no brain.
The best argument against democracy is a five minute talk with the average voter. Winston Churchill
That is twisting things. There's a good chance there's police / security services / revolutionary guard keeping watch, so even if the medical staff don't say anything (and OK, they might be informants in Iran) you'll still be picked up.
True, I didn't think of that angle. My mind leaped to people not trust doctors to keep their Hypocratic oaths.
Rest in Peace TosaInu, the Org will be your legacy
Originally Posted by Leon Blum - For All Mankind
Nothing established by violence and maintained by force, nothing that degrades humanity and is based on contempt for human personality, can endure.
I see that only Ron Paul had the guts to vote against it. Whatever, I suppose it doesn't matter; the mullahs want to put a face on the enemy, and that's Obama. As long as he plays it cagey they're out of luck.
-edit-
Dr. Paul's statement: "I have admired President Obama’s cautious approach to the situation in Iran and I would have preferred that we in the House had acted similarly. I adhere to the foreign policy of our Founders, who advised that we not interfere in the internal affairs of countries overseas. I believe that is the best policy for the United States, for our national security and for our prosperity. I urge my colleagues to reject this and all similar meddling resolutions."
Good on Obama, and good on Dr. Paul. *Becomes wistful...*
Another whisper: “Where are you from?” When I say the United States, he says: “Please give our regards to freedom.”
I'm speechless.
[A]s the general crowds spread into their homes militia style Mousavi supporters were out on the streets 'Basiji hunting'.
Their resolve is no less than these thugs -- they after hunting them down. They use their phones, their childhood friends, their intimate knowledge of their districts and neighbours to plan their attacks -- they're organised and they're supported by their community so they have little fear. They create the havoc they're after, ambush the thugs, use their Cocktail Molotovs, disperse and re-assemble elsewhere and then start again - and the door of every house is open to them as safe harbour -- they're community-connected.
The Basiji's are not.
These are not the students in the dorms, they're the street young -- they know the ways better than most thugs - and these young, a surprising number of them girls, are becoming more agile in their ways as each night passes on.
For those wondering what use guns would be for people fighting tyranny...
There's nothing there that I have a problem with. It's short, direct, and doesn't take sides.
It's a thin and threadbare veil, and we all know what it means. I think Obama is going down the right path.
CR
Ja Mata, Tosa.
The poorest man may in his cottage bid defiance to all the forces of the Crown. It may be frail; its roof may shake; the wind may blow through it; the storm may enter; the rain may enter; but the King of England cannot enter – all his force dares not cross the threshold of the ruined tenement! - William Pitt the Elder
Our well-paid idiots in the House of Representatives just passed a resolution condemning the crackdown in Iran. Well, that will make everything better then, won't it? [/sarcasm]
i don't buy that line of reasoning.
adult are supposed to be able to take responsibility for their actions, and by supporting a US refusal to condemn the violence in case it creates an excuse for tehran to shift the blame from themselves you do nothing but infantilise the population of iran.
tehrans actions are disgusting, and the only honourable action for a civilised nation state to take is to publicly condemn it.
if it does lead to a resurgence of support for the regime because the iranian people choose to accept tehran demonising the US then so be it.
the iranian electorate are adults, they make their bed and they deserve to lie in it.
Last edited by Furunculus; 06-20-2009 at 12:59.
Furunculus Maneuver: Adopt a highly logical position on a controversial subject where you cannot disagree with the merits of the proposal, only disagree with an opinion based on fundamental values. - Beskar
Adults rarely take responsibility for their actions
Adults are very rarely well read or articulate and will often mob to a banner rather than think
Adults in no country likes others to meddle in their internal affairs
I would rather take a more pragmatic approach than have countries turn against mine purely as I was following the theoretically best one.
An enemy that wishes to die for their country is the best sort to face - you both have the same aim in mind. Science flies you to the moon, religion flies you into buildings.
"If you can't trust the local kleptocrat whom you installed by force and prop up with billions of annual dollars, who can you trust?" Lemur
If you're not a liberal when you're 25, you have no heart. If you're not a conservative by the time you're 35, you have no brain.
The best argument against democracy is a five minute talk with the average voter. Winston Churchill
your telling me that adults are frail creatures prone to failure and mistakes................ i agree.
i also don't care. iranian adults should be treated as such otherwise we should invade them so they can be taken into social-care, because clearly if they cannot act in the self-knowledge that their actions have consequences then they are not legally responsible, they are in fact children that mustn't be allowed to play with sharp objects.
Last edited by Furunculus; 06-20-2009 at 16:31.
Furunculus Maneuver: Adopt a highly logical position on a controversial subject where you cannot disagree with the merits of the proposal, only disagree with an opinion based on fundamental values. - Beskar
your telling me that adults are frail creatures prone to failure and mistakes................ i agree.
i also don't care. iranian adults should be treated as such otherwise we should invade them so they can be taken into social-care, because clearly if they cannot act in the self-knowledge that their actions have consequences then they are not legally responsible, they are in fact children that mustn't be allowed to play with sharp objetcs.
As abhorrent and brutal as the outcome may be, the silver lining in the Tehran Tragedy is: the powers-that-be obviously now fear a large part of the population; they have to deploy both overwhelming force and calls for religious compliance to quell the expression of unrest.
But the unrest won't disappear. The protesters will remember their empowerment. And some day...
According to comments on that video foreign embassy's are starting to accept the injured as the hospitals aren't safe.Ayatollah Khamenei no doubt will try and sue such actions as propaganda. The guy genuinely sickens me.
Last edited by tibilicus; 06-20-2009 at 17:46.
"A lamb goes to the slaughter but a man, he knows when to walk away."
The poorest man may in his cottage bid defiance to all the forces of the Crown. It may be frail; its roof may shake; the wind may blow through it; the storm may enter; the rain may enter; but the King of England cannot enter – all his force dares not cross the threshold of the ruined tenement! - William Pitt the Elder
But the unrest won't disappear. The protesters will remember their empowerment. And some day...
They will remember their number. Dissidents in dictatorships are always kept isolated, silenced, supervised to keep them unaware of their strength and number. The sheer number of kindred souls pouring into the streets these days is what the Iranians will remember most, both those who hold power or support it, and those who contest it. This is very hopeful indeed, even if the wrong 'tollahs prevail.
The bloody trouble is we are only alive when we’re half dead trying to get a paragraph right. - Paul Scott
On HuffPost their also talking about a "suicide bombing" of a shrine by Iranians "trained in America and Britain" or somesuch nonsense (how does one train for suicide bombings?)
Last edited by Marshal Murat; 06-20-2009 at 19:04.
"Nietzsche is dead" - God
"I agree, although I support China I support anyone discovering things for Science and humanity." - lenin96
Re: Pursuit of happiness
Have you just been dumped?
I ask because it's usually something like that which causes outbursts like this, needless to say I dissagree completely.
I'm with Obama on this one. Best to stay out of this one because the Iranians in power now would love nothing more than to blame the Big Satan on this one. Regardless as to if Afterdinnerjacket or this other guy becomes the prez, either one is going to hate the US and blame the West in general as the source of all their problems.
In Washington, President Barack Obama urged Iranian authorities to halt "all violent and unjust actions against its own people." He said the United States "stands by all who seek to exercise" the universal rights to assembly and free speech.
Best post of the day. Please read it. Reprinted below the tag.
A Supreme Leader Loses His Aura as Iranians Flock to the Streets
By ROGER COHEN
Published: June 20, 2009
TEHRAN — The Iranian police commander, in green uniform, walked up Komak Hospital Alley with arms raised and his small unit at his side. “I swear to God,” he shouted at the protesters facing him, “I have children, I have a wife, I don’t want to beat people. Please go home.”
A man at my side threw a rock at him. The commander, unflinching, continued to plead. There were chants of “Join us! Join us!” The unit retreated toward Revolution Street, where vast crowds eddied back and forth confronted by baton-wielding Basij militia and black-clad riot police officers on motorbikes.
Dark smoke billowed over this vast city in the late afternoon. Motorbikes were set on fire, sending bursts of bright flame skyward. Ayatollah Ali Khamenei, the supreme leader, had used his Friday sermon to declare high noon in Tehran, warning of “bloodshed and chaos” if protests over a disputed election persisted.
He got both on Saturday — and saw the hitherto sacrosanct authority of his office challenged as never before since the 1979 revolution birthed the Islamic Republic and conceived for it a leadership post standing at the very flank of the Prophet. A multitude of Iranians took their fight through a holy breach on Saturday from which there appears to be scant turning back.
Khamenei has taken a radical risk. He has factionalized himself, so losing the arbiter’s lofty garb, by aligning himself with President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad against both Mir Hussein Moussavi, the opposition leader, and Ali Akbar Hashemi Rafsanjani, a founding father of the revolution.
He has taunted millions of Iranians by praising their unprecedented participation in an election many now view as a ballot-box putsch. He has ridiculed the notion that an official inquiry into the vote might yield a different result. He has tried pathos and he has tried pounding his lectern. In short, he has lost his aura.
The taboo-breaking response was unequivocal. It’s funny how people’s obsessions come back to bite them. I’ve been hearing about Khamenei’s fear of “velvet revolutions” for months now. There was nothing velvet about Saturday’s clashes. In fact, the initial quest to have Moussavi’s votes properly counted and Ahmadinejad unseated has shifted to a broader confrontation with the regime itself.
Garbage burned. Crowds bayed. Smoke from tear gas swirled. Hurled bricks sent phalanxes of police, some with automatic rifles, into retreat to the accompaniment of cheers. Early afternoon rumors that the rally for Moussavi had been canceled yielded to the reality of violent confrontation.
I don’t know where this uprising is leading. I do know some police units are wavering. That commander talking about his family was not alone. There were other policemen complaining about the unruly Basijis. Some security forces just stood and watched. “All together, all together, don’t be scared,” the crowd shouted.
I also know that Iran’s women stand in the vanguard. For days now, I’ve seen them urging less courageous men on. I’ve seen them get beaten and return to the fray. “Why are you sitting there?” one shouted at a couple of men perched on the sidewalk on Saturday. “Get up! Get up!”
Another green-eyed woman, Mahin, aged 52, staggered into an alley clutching her face and in tears. Then, against the urging of those around her, she limped back into the crowd moving west toward Freedom Square. Cries of “Death to the dictator!” and “We want liberty!” accompanied her.
There were people of all ages. I saw an old man on crutches, middle-aged office workers and bands of teenagers. Unlike the student revolts of 2003 and 1999, this movement is broad.
“Can’t the United Nations help us?” one woman asked me. I said I doubted that very much. “So,” she said, “we are on our own.”
The world is watching, and technology is connecting, and the West is sending what signals it can, but in the end that is true. Iranians have fought this lonely fight for a long time: to be free, to have a measure of democracy.
Ayatollah Ruhollah Khomeini, the leader of the Islamic revolution, understood that, weaving a little plurality into an authoritarian system. That pluralism has ebbed and flowed since 1979 — mainly the former — but last week it was crushed with blunt brutality. That is why a whole new generation of Iranians, their intelligence insulted, has risen.
I’d say the momentum is with them for now. At moments on Saturday, Khamenei’s authority, which is that of the Islamic Republic itself, seemed fragile. The revolutionary authorities have always mocked the cancer-ridden Shah’s ceding before an uprising, and vowed never to bend in the same way. Their firepower remains formidable, but they are facing a swelling test.
Just off Revolution Street, I walked into a pall of tear gas. I’d lit a cigarette minutes before — not a habit but a need — and a young man collapsed into me shouting, “Blow smoke in my face.” Smoke dispels the effects of the gas to some degree.
I did what I could and he said, “We are with you” in English and with my colleague we tumbled into a dead end — Tehran is full of them — running from the searing gas and police. I gasped and fell through a door into an apartment building where somebody had lit a small fire in a dish to relieve the stinging.
There were about 20 of us gathered there, eyes running, hearts racing. A 19-year-old student was nursing his left leg, struck by a militiaman with an electric-shock-delivering baton. “No way we are turning back,” said a friend of his as he massaged that wounded leg.
Later, we moved north, tentatively, watching the police lash out from time to time, reaching Victory Square where a pitched battle was in progress. Young men were breaking bricks and stones to a size for hurling. Crowds gathered on overpasses, filming and cheering the protesters. A car burst into flames. Back and forth the crowd surged, confronted by less-than-convincing police units.
I looked up through the smoke and saw a poster of the stern visage of Khomeini above the words, “Islam is the religion of freedom.”
Later, as night fell over the tumultuous capital, gunfire could be heard in the distance. And from rooftops across the city, the defiant sound of “Allah-u-Akbar” — “God is Great” — went up yet again, as it has every night since the fraudulent election. But on Saturday it seemed stronger. The same cry was heard in 1979, only for one form of absolutism to yield to another. Iran has waited long enough to be free.
Re: Iranian Elections
Reply With Quote
Originally Posted by Lemur
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