Mafia Mongolica [Concluded]

[Splitpersonality]

Unvote; Vote: Splitpersonality

I agree, I've been silent this entire game and no one has called me out on it, it's time for me to face up to the music, and spill the beans.

[Askthepizzaguy]

Or, or... you could use your vote productively and just contribute more.

[Splitpersonality]

I'm following, I figured RR was a good vote, that's all.

[Askthepizzaguy]

Okay, that's something we can at least discuss. I think Reenk is taking a stick and smashing the wasp nest a bit too much to be mafia. Even though it is netting him votes it is not affecting his strategy. Trying to lead people towards a lynch is also an interesting move if he were mafia, because if Beskar turns up innocent then it just makes him look bad.

I wouldn't put it past Reenk to do pretty much anything, but I'm sure his teammates would be a little peeved if he got himself lynched right away due to poking a bunch of townies in the eye and pretty much saying "lynch me". I would note that Reenk is just doing what we're SUPPOSED to be doing, which is discussing and accusing, and that beats the hell out of lurking.

And that concludes my defense of Reenk Roink, because he's still accusing me and Beskar and that makes me shed fewer tears if he gets lynched.

[TinCow]

Now then, are you so entrenched in the dogmatic assumption of "behavior change = scum" that this statement is supposed to imply that I am scummy?

You do know how much I detest the equivocation of behavioral change to scumminess right? Would you wish for me to argue against it (rather I will repost my many tirades)?

Having observed a fair number of mafia games, I have concluded that it is the single most reliable method of spotting mafioso. This is based on observations of people who are good at this kind of thing, since I will freely admit that my track record on catching mafioso is pretty poor. Your disdain for attacks based on behavioral changes is irrelevant to me. As far as I am concerned, it's a well-established method of catching scum and has proven itself many times. Argue against it all you want, but feel free to target it at others, for you will not find me receptive.

It is late and I am tired. I will address the other parts of your post if they seem to still be relevant in the morning.

[Reenk Roink]

Having observed a fair number of mafia games, I have concluded that it is the single most reliable method of spotting mafioso. This is based on observations of people who are good at this kind of thing, since I will freely admit that my track record on catching mafioso is pretty poor. Your disdain for attacks based on behavioral changes is irrelevant to me. As far as I am concerned, it's a well-established method of catching scum and has proven itself many times. Argue against it all you want, but feel free to target it at others, for you will not find me receptive.

It is late and I am tired. I will address the other parts of your post if they seem to still be relevant in the morning.

OK, you seem uninterested in even discussing the epistemic virtues of the behavioral change method. Whatever then, that avenue of discussion is closed.

You seem to be basing your reliance on it on some kind of pragmatic justification. I think however, your impression of it's success is inaccurate, as in my judgment of it, behavior changes have got a ton of false positives while letting major figures slip through the cracks. Essentially, with my experiences, I don't believe they have performed better recently than random voting. I'll grant you, early on in Mafia here, it was a big thing, with some success (still vastly overhyped). However, the entire situation has changed.

Also would you not agree that a common mindset for a player who is Mafia would be to keep his behavior the same? While I'm not a fan of the method, I do realize that it does have many fans, and I do see a motivation for Mafia to purposely keep their behavior as static as possible, whereas the motivation would be much less for a townie I feel.

(a side note, I would love to see statistics on this kind of thing, although such may be impossible because pinning down behavior change into some quantitative form is hard - Seamus's post trackers did a partial job tracking ACTIVITY changes... which is what Kommodus also did)

Lastly, if you feel this way, you should go and vote for me, shouldn't you?

Tally:

Beskar: 2 (Reenk Roink, pevergreen)
Reenk Roink 2: (Beskar, Tratorix)
spL1tp3r50naL1ty: 2 (Askthepizzaguy, spL1tp3r50naL1ty)
Askthepizzaguy: 2 (White_eyes:D, gibsonsg91921)

[Splitpersonality]

Unvote

I think Reenk is taking a stick and smashing the wasp nest a bit too much to be mafia

Well, yeah, I'm not sure many people would gamble on us not voting for them because they're stirring things up, that'd be a pretty large risk for little reward.

So what, do I vote for you ATPG? What's your argument against beskar if you have one?

[Chaotix]

Okay, that's something we can at least discuss. I think Reenk is taking a stick and smashing the wasp nest a bit too much to be mafia. Even though it is netting him votes it is not affecting his strategy. Trying to lead people towards a lynch is also an interesting move if he were mafia, because if Beskar turns up innocent then it just makes him look bad.

I wouldn't put it past Reenk to do pretty much anything, but I'm sure his teammates would be a little peeved if he got himself lynched right away due to poking a bunch of townies in the eye and pretty much saying "lynch me". I would note that Reenk is just doing what we're SUPPOSED to be doing, which is discussing and accusing, and that beats the hell out of lurking.

And that concludes my defense of Reenk Roink, because he's still accusing me and Beskar and that makes me shed fewer tears if he gets lynched.

I'll remind you that Reenk has claimed detective, ratted out his own mafia partners, and faked his way to a victory. I don't think there is anything that Reenk would consider to be "going too far" as a mafioso, so long as he believes it will work. And hypothetically, if Reenk is mafia: he is the one making up the plans, and his teammates are just rolling with it, unless they're someone like TinCow or Sigurd.

Reenk has also changed up playstyle considerably from previous games; he's now more impossible to read than he was before.

I think that, before this game ends, Reenk, ATPG, and Beskar all need to die.

Right now, I'm going to vote for someone low-profile, though. None of these three deserve a lynch before we have more info.

Vote: Splitpersonality

Because his self-vote is exactly the sort of thing he would do to make him a more unsavoury lynch target.

[pevergreen]

Can't you guys tell reenks alignment?

Its clear as day to me every game.

[Askthepizzaguy]

@ SP

You could always vote for Khazaar and maybe that will get him talking. Or vote for whoever. Personally I just want to encourage participation because I can't decide who to vote for when people aren't voting or discussing.

[Splitpersonality]

If I wanted to make myself an unsavory lynch target I'd claim a pro-town role, and as I say every game in which I am as unimportant as I am now, I would like you to not waste a lynch on me

Vote: Khazaar if I can discuss things you can get in here and too.

[Askthepizzaguy]

unvote, vote: Khazaar

until he starts participating.




Beskar: 2 (Reenk Roink, pevergreen)
Reenk Roink 2: (Beskar, Tratorix)
Askthepizzaguy: 2 (White_eyes:D, gibsonsg91921)
Khazaar: 2 (spL1tp3r50naL1ty, Askthepizzaguy)
spL1tp3r50naL1ty: 1 (Chaotix)

[Csargo]

Been messing around with my wireless internet trying to get it to work and stay connected. Finally seems to be working right not. I'll Vote:abstain for now until I can read the thread.

[DJGingivitis]

Vote : Tin Cow

Beskar: 2 (Reenk Roink, pevergreen)
Reenk Roink 2: (Beskar, Tratorix)
Askthepizzaguy: 2 (White_eyes:D, gibsonsg91921)
Khazaar: 2 (spL1tp3r50naL1ty, Askthepizzaguy)
spL1tp3r50naL1ty: 1 (Chaotix)
Tin Cow: 1 (DJGingivitis)

My reasoning is very simple. You have only gone after people who have started voted for people who look suspicious. However I feel that if you attempt to make a case on these people who are voting off of other people's actions that you are trying to delay someone dying perhaps yourself. Something about you stirring everything up seems odd. In the 2nd round you randomly switched to YLC. I had my suspicions about YLC up until now. His power to cast his vote for someone else's thoughts scared me. It is modern politics. But now I discovered you, a greater evil. And for this reason I shall vote for you. And YLC, my apologies but I ask you know, kind merchant, lend me your vote, vote for Tin Cow. Get rid of this murderous man.

[A Very Super Market]

I demand more unwarranted attention.

Vote: Split

Wow, what a split vote!


Beskar: 2 (Reenk Roink, pevergreen)
Reenk Roink 2: (Beskar, Tratorix)
Askthepizzaguy: 2 (White_eyes:D, gibsonsg91921)
Khazaar: 2 (spL1tp3r50naL1ty, Askthepizzaguy)
spL1tp3r50naL1ty: 2 (Chaotix, AVSM)
Tin Cow: 1 (DJGingivitis)

[ULC]

Vote : Tin Cow

Beskar: 2 (Reenk Roink, pevergreen)
Reenk Roink 2: (Beskar, Tratorix)
Askthepizzaguy: 2 (White_eyes:D, gibsonsg91921)
Khazaar: 2 (spL1tp3r50naL1ty, Askthepizzaguy)
spL1tp3r50naL1ty: 1 (Chaotix)
Tin Cow: 1 (DJGingivitis)

My reasoning is very simple. You have only gone after people who have started voted for people who look suspicious. However I feel that if you attempt to make a case on these people who are voting off of other people's actions that you are trying to delay someone dying perhaps yourself. Something about you stirring everything up seems odd. In the 2nd round you randomly switched to YLC. I had my suspicions about YLC up until now. His power to cast his vote for someone else's thoughts scared me. It is modern politics. But now I discovered you, a greater evil. And for this reason I shall vote for you. And YLC, my apologies but I ask you know, kind merchant, lend me your vote, vote for Tin Cow. Get rid of this murderous man.

I am deeply sorry, for the Reenk and the Roink is correct, and I owe him a double deal, and it is up to him how the vote falls. However, if you want, you may preorder, and when we obtain a new shipment, we will send it right to you.

Vote: Beskar

I would also like to note that I am an honest merchant, and I do not take kindly to those who deal in shadows - such as Beskar himself, you tried to buy my vote through a PM, and to vote for my current customer no less.

[Askthepizzaguy]

This is fun. After the game, you owe me a beer or something Beskar.

unvote, vote: Splitpersonality

I now beg and plead for Beskar's survival, because it's totally not scummy for me to do that.

[ULC]

This is fun. After the game, you owe me a beer or something Beskar.

unvote, vote: Splitpersonality

I now beg and plead for Beskar's survival, because it's totally not scummy for me to do that.

How dare you sir! You would make a mockery of my product because one man can sell you a poor tasting beer? I will sell you wine instead!

[Askthepizzaguy]

Remind me why I argued for your innocence again? Pain in the...

[Sigurd]

I feel that Beskar is not the right choice this round. There will be ample time to lynch him later should we go for that option.

vote: Split

Tally
spL1tp3r50naL1ty : 4 (Chaotix, AVSM, ATPG, Sigurd)

Beskar : 3 (Reenk Roink, pevergreen, YLC)
Reenk Roink : 2 (Beskar, Tratorix)
Askthepizzaguy : 2 (White_eyes:D, gibsonsg91921)
Khazaar : 1 (spL1tp3r50naL1ty)
Tin Cow : 1 (DJGingivitis)

[White_eyes:D]

Unvote:ATPG Vote:Beskar Get rid of the guy who is "Always going to be lynch bait" (Nothing personal Beskar but your too big a threat to town)...."If we always look back, we well never move forward" Lynch Beskar and get it over with...

[Askthepizzaguy]

I will give anyone a cookie who spares Beskar.

[Death is yonder]

Vote: Split

I'd just like to say that Beskar's current playstyle correlates to his usual play.

Either, he is simply a normal townie person, or he's working very, very, hard to maintain his style of play.

I've learned from my mistakes in the past by dogmatically hounding Beskar for the type of behavior he currently displays, I don't think he's the mafia, at this point of time of course.

[Sigurd]

Tally:

spL1tp3r50naL1ty : 5 (Chaotix, AVSM, ATPG, Sigurd, DiY)

Beskar : 4 (Reenk Roink, pevergreen, YLC, WE:D)
Reenk Roink : 2 (Beskar, Tratorix)
Askthepizzaguy : 1 (gibsonsg91921)
Khazaar : 1 (spL1tp3r50naL1ty)
Tin Cow : 1 (DJGingivitis)

Abstains : 1 (Ichigo)
not voting : 5 (Caius, Jolt, Khazaar, LW, TinCow)

*names in red - WoK bait

[GeneralHankerchief]

Split, you really need to unvote Khazaar and put it on Beskar.

[TinCow]

Also would you not agree that a common mindset for a player who is Mafia would be to keep his behavior the same? While I'm not a fan of the method, I do realize that it does have many fans, and I do see a motivation for Mafia to purposely keep their behavior as static as possible, whereas the motivation would be much less for a townie I feel.

Certainly, but we're not talking about situations in which people are acting normally, are we? We're talking about situations in which people are acting abnormally. There are two basic methods of acting abnormally: intentionally and unintentionally. Unintentional abnormal action is very often due to a person's innately different reaction to a game that comes when they have more information than the rest. That extra information changes their behavior even if they do not intend it to. Intentional abnormal action indicates a plan of some kind and a strategy that is being pursued with a purpose. While that purpose could certainly be of a metagaming nature, it could also be for an in-game reason.

Either way, both of the above methods indicate that something is going on with that player that deserves further probing. Does it mean mafioso? No. Does it mean I think I should put some pressure on them? Yes.

Lastly, if you feel this way, you should go and vote for me, shouldn't you?

I have not voted for you because I am not yet convinced you are the best lynch this round. I prefer not to move my vote around regularly, and I am very comfortable holding it until late in a phase.

[Jolt]

I would abstain, since I don't seem to be making much sense of all the arguments around here. But since I like to matter, and since beefy is already dead (Voting against me carries extremely significant consequences as you noticed), I shall revert to voting for ATPG, since I still think random.org sucks.

Vote: ATPG

[Askthepizzaguy]

*POKE*

You might as well vote abstain for all the good that will do. Come on now, step up and decide. Frankly I don't even care if you pick the person I've been trying to defend, just pick one.

[Khazaar]

Umm, kinda missed the bus on this one but I´m catching up. ATPG offered me a cookie if I vote for Split so I´ll do that...

Vote: Splitpersonality

[atheotes]

so whats the case on split anyways

seems like a bandwagon to me