Switzerland About To Vote On Minaret Ban

[Subotan]

This is just racism, plain and simple. There would be a storm if Morocco said it was going to ban Church bells, and yet the Swiss are quite happy to prevent the building of a fourth minaret in Switzerland. That's right, there are a grand total of three minarets in Switzerland, and yet the way the Swiss xenophobic parties describe them, you'd think that primary schools and orphanages were being knocked down to make way for Mega-Mosques. The Swiss People's Parties are merely the same spawn as the BNP, Geert Wilders, etc.

[Fragony]

Geert Wilders really doesn't belong there, a lot of his voters are secular muslims, mostly Iraqi's and Iranians, and other immigrants from the old colonies as well.

[Azathoth]

They aren't trying to stop mosques altogether, just stopping them building the minarets(the spikey bits) on the top of them, which makes even less sense then stopping the construction of mosques. The whole idea sounds pretty stupid to me.

So if banning minarets won't even prevent Muslims from building mosques...

[Fragony]

Word is in, the Swiss voted in favour of a ban

Thank you very much Switzerland, makes it all that much easier for me to explain that the decent right only has it's eyes on the political Islam

idiots. Gah I am furious you are hurting our cause you cheesemelting mongrols

[Furunculus]

This is just racism, plain and simple. There would be a storm if Morocco said it was going to ban Church bells, and yet the Swiss are quite happy to prevent the building of a fourth minaret in Switzerland. That's right, there are a grand total of three minarets in Switzerland, and yet the way the Swiss xenophobic parties describe them, you'd think that primary schools and orphanages were being knocked down to make way for Mega-Mosques. The Swiss People's Parties are merely the same spawn as the BNP, Geert Wilders, etc.

it is daft, but it is also their right.

[HoreTore]

it is daft, but it is also their right.

It's their right to deny other people their freedom?

That's stretching things, methinks.

[Fragony]

That's stretching things, methinks.

You just wait, this is a disaster for Europe the mother of 'yeah but', thanks for giving away the higher ground, really, good job. I now have nothing to say for myself, and that's going to be exploited, Switzerland FU

[Husar]

Switzerland is only geographically part of Europe so they can keep all the blame for themselves.
It really is rather silly though.
Nay for direct democracy?

[Hax]

Not something I would do even if I am not very fond of the Islam

What is "The Islam"? Is it by any chance related to "The Christianity" or "The Buddhism"?

[Fragony]

What is "The Islam"? Is it by any chance related to "The Christianity" or "The Buddhism"?

Hax I may be an idiot but that doesn't mean I am not educated, I know of the various branches of Islam, where, how, when. But I know it when I see it, and the political branch has little to do with the lore of old it's power

@Horetore, the minaret is a symbol, there are many ways to conquer a place. That is the exact original meaning of a minaret; conquered. They aren't wrong about that, in the Islam there is conquest by migration and conquest by force.

[Azathoth]

Some justifications I saw online:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Why are we, in the US. "The Great Satan"? We allow all to practice their religion unhindered or not practice any religion if you so choose. Europe puts restrictions on what, how, and where you can practice your religion. Why do the muslim countries forbid the practice of any religion other than Islam?

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

simply another instance of muslims trying to force their way on the world. They refuse to assimilate into a culture so they wish to force that culture to change to suit them. We've all seen what happens if we don't kiss their asses, they kill a few thousand of us. What a wonderful philosophy, kill the infadel, unless it's more worthwhile to just take over their country. I say, let them boycott their little asses off and protest all they want, if they don't like it, GO THE **** HOME

I nearly pooped at this one.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

if they allow minarets, the next thing they will have to change the flag.

if you didnt know, the swiss flag is a cross. that means its a christian country.

[HoreTore]

A similar thing has happened in my town, Drammen.

There's a sizeable population of people of turkish descent here, and they want to build a proper mosque, as the mosque in use today are just office buildings and such redecorated to be a place of worship, and that's not very stylish...

Here are the pics of what it will look like(p01 and p12, tiny pictures though unfortunately), and let's face it; it looks awesome. It will easily be one of the best looking buildings in the city, it's a shame it won't get built in the centre of the city though.

But awesome as it may look, the "immigration skeptics"(the party Roger Madsen, from another thread, belongs to) have been blocking its construction for years now. Even though not a single tax dollar will be spent on it, they will pay for everything themselves, permits and such have been blocked as much as possible.

The really funny stuff is that some people seem to think that there are no mosques here, that muslims have been living here for 30 years without a place of worship, and they seem to be completely ignorant of the fact that all they want to do is build a nicer mosque, there already are a bunch of mosques, and unless they get genocidal there's no way to stop them from having mosques.

[Subotan]

Nay for direct democracy?

Nay for Direct Democracy.

[Subotan]

Word is in, the Swiss voted in favour of a ban

I'm ashamed to be on the same continent as the pigs who voted for the ban.

it is daft, but it is also their right.

Viva tyranny of the majority!

[naut]

it is daft, but it is also their right.

Yep. You can't stop a political vote just because its daft. You can however stop it if it goes against the laws of said country (ie, an unconstitutional law/ruling/statute). I'm not versed in Swiss law though, so I'm in no position to pass judgement.

[HoreTore]

Yep. You can't stop a political vote just because its daft. You can however stop it if it goes against the laws of said country (ie, an unconstitutional law/ruling/statute). I'm not versed in Swiss law though, so I'm in no position to pass judgement.

I would be surprised if they aren't subject to the European human rights court...

So honestly, I can't really see how this can be passed...

[ICantSpellDawg]

This seems to me more like an issue of the building code in a historical nation. Maybe they don't want alien architecture to clutter up and confuse the countryside that is responsible for so much tourism. Maybe Muslims could create a Swiss style mosque that jives with the them park that is switzerland instead of bringing the desert with them to the alps. Very little says skiing, hot chocolate, watches and Europe as poorly as the Middle east. It would be wierd if universal studios set up mammoth movie posters in the middle of Disneyworld, eh?

Religions have adapted to local architectural conventions for years. Look at modern Jewish temples and tell me that they look like they were shipped in from the Levant. They could start building church styled buildings with little crescents at the top. Time for change; I know foreign words like "change" and "adapt" have a hard time setting up their minarets in Muslim brains. Nobody is saying no to mosques, just no to the unsightly phallus-like minarets hogging the pristine skyline.

I also believe that Christian denominations should build steeples that look like minarets in Islamic nations. Everybody should be able to build whatever they'd like in countries like the US.

[HoreTore]

This seems to me more like an issue of the building code in a historical nation. Maybe they don't want alien architecture to clutter up and confuse the countryside that is responsible for so much tourism. Maybe Muslims could create a Swiss style mosque that jives with the them park that is switzerland instead of bringing the desert with them to the alps. Very little says skiing, hot chocolate, watches and Europe as poorly as the Middle east. It would be wierd if universal studios set up mammoth movie posters in the middle of Disneyworld, eh?

Religions have adapted to local architectural conventions for years. They could start building church styled buildings with little crescents at the top. Time for change; I know foreign words like "change" and "adapt" have a hard time setting up their minarets in Muslim brains. Nobody is saying no to mosques, just no to the unsightly phallus-like minarets hogging pristine skyline.

That post was rather contradicting....

Anyway, look at the minaret in the article. That ain't no middle eastern building style, that's a european style construction.

Also, having an entire country as a national park? That be taking things a bit too far. For the special spots, sure I can understand it. But I highly doubt that every new construction in Switzerland is in the same style as they built stuff centuries ago. Times change, so does Switzerland. Working as an architect in Switzerland sounds like the worst job in the world....

EDIT: A small tower is too much, but this is fits in perfectly with medieval buildings....? Please.

[Subotan]

Geneva is the ugliest city I've ever been in. All the buildings are exactly the same height, same style, same size...it's like being surronded by Communist apartment blocks, except they're 300 years old rather than 30.

A minaret or two would make it a lot more interesting.

[Papewaio]

Nobody is saying no to mosques, just no to the unsightly phallus-like minarets hogging the pristine skyline.

The article linked to it has a phallic steeple right behind the phallic minaret. It seems to be which patriarchal religion has the biggest schlong contest...

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

The article linked to it has a phallic steeple right behind the phallic minaret. It seems to be which patriarchal religion has the biggest schlong contest...

Well, not really. After all, Mosques are just developments of Byzantine Churches, because the most impressive early ones were originally Byzantine Churches.

[ICantSpellDawg]

The article linked to it has a phallic steeple right behind the phallic minaret. It seems to be which patriarchal religion has the biggest schlong contest...

That shade of blue was necessary? Clearly one is more "Swiss" than the other.

[Louis VI the Fat]

This seems to me more like an issue of the building code

Religions have adapted to local architectural conventions for years.

Yes and no. 'Building codes' is the defensive wall that people who have a problem with Islam hide behind. More particularly, it is the argument of people who disagree with those who disagree that there should be a ban on minarets.

Clearly, the origin and the rationale behind the yes-vote to a ban are over issues of the multicultural society, not aesthetics. Even so, the point remains that one can with justification reverse, as it were, the 'burden of proof': that is, make the question not why minarets should be forbidden, but why they should be allowed.

In effect, the debate is changed from one over equality between religions, to one of equality of religion and non-religion.



Should McDonalds be allowed to build huge double-M arches? In many places in Europe, this is forbidden. Forbidden, because it is deemed an intrusion of traditional aesthetics, a sign of abrassive foreign/capitalist intrusion, that ruins the looks of inner cities or the countryside.


The McMinarets of Capitalism, in their ancestral homeland:





In Europe, often they have been asked to please keep a low profile:

[Louis VI the Fat]

I am a bit torn.

One argument in favour of a ban is that it stops the exceptional status Islam enjoys. Switzerland looks as good as it does because of very strict building laws. One is not allowed to build anything that clashes with the natural or cultural environment. And it shows in the beauty of the land.
Nobody, however, has dared to say 'no' to minarets, for fear of being labelled a racist.

A secular group is not allowed to build a large tower next to the clubhouse. Their Muslim neighbours are allowed to build it.

Clubhouses for traditional Swiss religions are allowed to build spires. Which moves the question to is essence: is multiculturalism about integration, or separation? All Swiss inhabitants of non-Swiss ancestry are perfectly well allowed to live in Switzerland, as Swiss. To integrate, as Swiss. But not as Non-Swiss. This referendum to some extent deems Islam 'non-Swiss'.

What the proponents of this ban ought to do, is test Switzerland by inventing a religion, and then to ask permission to build a 400 meter fluorescent pink tower in the centre of Bern - claiming their god demands this of them. This permission will obviously not be granted, neither before or after the current referendum. Which then puts the ball into the court of the 'pro-minaret' camp: what is so special about minarets that they should be accepted as Swiss, but other modes of expression via towers is not?





Also, it appears that all of the Frenchspeaking cantons voted against the ban, all of the other cantons voted in favour of it. The famous 'barrière de röstis' (Röstigraben) strikes again!

[Louis VI the Fat]

On the left, the French speaking cantons. All of the non-voting cantons were Frenchspeaking. All of the yes-voting cantons were non-Francophone. The famous barrière de röstis/ Röstigraben.

The West to East change in colour is striking. Switzerland, Swizerland...

[aimlesswanderer]

An interesting map that. Another vote for paranoia and intolerance. I have doubts that this will make Switzerland a happier, more harmonious place somehow. I see increases in anti Muslim sentiment, making the Muslims more scared and more likely to go fundamentalist... woohoo.

[Furunculus]

and yet it is switzerlands strongly democratic form of governance that causes its citizenry to be satisfied with their country.

we, in britain, could do worse given our broken political institutions.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Germany would have voted the same way:
http://www.spiegel.de/international/...664231,00.html

.......................But mass circulation Bild, which can claim to have its finger on the nation's pulse more than other newspapers, said Germans would probably vote the same way if they were allowed a referendum on the issue:
"The minaret isn't just the symbol of a religion but of a totally different culture. Large parts of the Islamic world don't share our basic European values: the legacy of the Enlightenment, the equality of man and woman, the separation of church and state, a justice system independent of the Bible or the Koran and the refusal to impose one's own beliefs on others with 'fire and the sword.' Another factor is likely to have influenced the Swiss vote: Nowhere is life made harder for Christians than in Islamic countries. Those who are intolerant themselves cannot expect unlimited tolerance from others."..............................

and another:
http://www.spiegel.de/international/...4176-2,00.html

So far, centrist politicians across the continent have failed to find an adequate response to the growing concern.
As such, it would be inaccurate to explain away the Swiss referendum results by merely pointing to xenophobia in the country. It is also an expression of the failures of the liberal political elite to adequately address the issue and to find solutions to the real and perceived problems with Muslim immigrants.

try blaming this one on Thatcher! lol