I'm getting a laptop, and I'm too stupid to tell if the one I like is any good

[Subotan]

I will need a laptop when I go away to university next year, in order to do work, but I still want to be able to play most games whilst at university. Although this might sound like I'm trying to square a circle, I have recently come into some money which I want to use to purchase a gaming laptop. Now when I say "gaming laptop", I don't mean a mighty colossus of a desktop that has a touchpad, but weight isn't a huge problem for me. Likewise, looks are nearly irrelevant, and I'd probably prefer something that isn't really flashy.
After quite some time trawling around on the internet, I came across these
http://www.novatech.co.uk/novatech/l...x70ca15.6.html

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

NOTE:These are both from the pro version
Processor
Description
Intel Core i7 Mobile 720 1.6Ghz
Architecture Features
Intel 64 Architecture
Cache
6Mb
Clockspeed
1.6GHz
Manufacturer
Intel
Supports Virtualisation
Yes
No. of Cores
4
Memory
Description
2 x 2Gb 240Pin DDR3 1066Mhz
Speed
1066Mhz
Harddrives
Description
500Gb 2.5" 7200rpm SATA Hard Drive
Interface
SATA
Optical Drives
Description
Blu Ray Combo Drive
Formats
4.8x BD-R, 6x DVD-R, 6x DVD+R, 6x DVD-R DL, 6x DVD+R DL, 8x DVD-RW, 8x DVD+RW, 5x DVD-RAM
Interface
SATA
Graphics
Description
GTX 280 Graphics
Laptop Chassis
Dimensions
374(W) x 263.5(D) x 42(H) mm
E-SATA
1x eSATA port
Firewire
1x IEEE 1394a port
Memory Capacity
4GB
Memory Slots
Two 204 Pin SODIMM sockets
LAN
Built-in Gigabit Ethernet LAN
OS Compliance
Microsoft Windows 7 32Bit & 64Bit, Microsoft Windows Vista 32Bit & 64Bit
Sound
High Definition Audio
Speakers
Built-in 2 speakers
TV Out
1x DVI-I output port
1x HDMII output port
USB
4x USB 2.0 ports
Webcam
2.0 Mega Pixel
Weight
3.3kg with ODD and battery
Screen
15.6" FHD (1920x1080)

http://www.novatech.co.uk/novatech/l...x80ca17.3.html

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Processor
Description
Intel Core i7 Mobile 820 1.73Ghz
Architecture Features
Intel 64 Architecture
Cache
8Mb
Clockspeed
1.73Ghz
Manufacturer
Intel
Supports Virtualisation
Yes
No. of Cores
4
Memory
Description
2 x 2Gb 240Pin DDR3 1066Mhz
Speed
1066Mhz
Harddrives
Description
500Gb 2.5" 7200rpm SATA Hard Drive
Interface
SATA
Optical Drives
Description
Blu Ray Combo Drive
Formats
4.8x BD-R, 6x DVD-R, 6x DVD+R, 6x DVD-R DL, 6x DVD+R DL, 8x DVD-RW, 8x DVD+RW, 5x DVD-RAM
Interface
SATA
Graphics
Description
Nvidia GTX280 Graphics
Laptop Chassis
Audio In
1x microphone jack (external 5.1CH audio output supported)
Audio Out
1x headphone jack (external 5.1CH audio output supported
Dimensions
412(W) x 279(D) x 39~48(H)mm
Memory Capacity
Expandable memory up to 4GB, depends on 1GB/2GB SODIMM Module
Memory Slots
Two 204Pin SODIMM sockets, support for DDR3 1333MHz
LAN
Built-in Gigabit Ethernet LAN
OS Compliance
Microsoft Windows 7 32Bit & 64Bit, Microsoft Windows Vista 32Bit & 64Bit
PCMCIA / Cardbus
One ExpressCard /54(/34) slot
Two MiniCard slots (1st for WLAN module with PCIe interface , 2nd for TV Tuner with USB interface)
Sound
High Definition audio interface - 3D stereo enhanced sound system
Speakers
Built-in four speakers - Built-in Sub-woofer
TV Out
1x HDMI output port
1x DVI-I output jack
USB
4x USB 2.0 port
Webcam
2.0M pixels Video Camera with USB interface
Weight
4kg with ODD and battery
Screen
17.3" FHD (1920x1080)

I'm torn between the two, as they both have had good reviews by other sites. A requirement to play EB II comfortably is essential. As mentioned before, money is not a huge issue, but I'd still like to get good value for money. So what does the .Org think?

[Fragony]

Get the new macbook, put windows7 on, and it eats Crysis for breakfast

http://www.apple.com/macbook/specs.html

[Lemur]

The graphics card is prolly going to be the deciding factor. According to this site, the GTX 280M (for mobile) is roughly equivalent to a desktop 8800 GTS, which should handle EB and RTW easily.

Nice thing about the two laptops you specced out is that they have 15" screens and good video cards. Most laptops that have high-end video cards sport 17" screens, which is a bit much for a mobile card. You should probably be able to play just about any AAA title for a while with that rig.

-edit-

By way of comparison, the current iteration of the Macbook Pro only sports a 9600M videocard, which is a steep step down. As nice as Apple laptops are, I wouldn't recommend it over the Novatch you linked.

[Fragony]

doublepost

[Subotan]

Get the new macbook, put windows7 on, and it eats Crysis for breakfast

http://www.apple.com/macbook/

NEVER

The graphics card is prolly going to be the deciding factor. According to this site, the GTX 280M (for mobile) is roughly equivalent to a desktop 8800 GTS, which should handle EB and RTW easily.
.

Cool. Generally, I'm semi-knowledgeable about hardware; it's just graphics cards that let me down. And what about MTWII (Not that I'd play Vanilla, of course)?

Nice thing about the two laptops you specced out is that they have 15" screens and good video cards. Most laptops that have high-end video cards sport 17" screens, which is a bit much for a mobile card. You should probably be able to play just about any AAA title for a while with that rig.

Why's that?

By way of comparison, the current iteration of the Macbook Pro only sports a 9600M videocard, which is a steep step down. As nice as Apple laptops are, I wouldn't recommend it over the Novatch you linked.

Hehe, my prejudice is now justified.

If you were to pick one of the two, which would it be?

[Fragony]

If you need it to be a working machine as well, well. Good laptop needs good battery as well I get almost 10 hours with light usage, so far it runs everything just fine and I'll take this 13 inch screen over any 19 any day it's fantastic. I am really pleased with the new macbook and it's priced pretty competively.

[Lemur]

And what about MTWII (Not that I'd play Vanilla, of course)?

Any machine that can handle RTW should be able to handle MTW2 as well. Just don't ask me about the original MTW; apparently there are unsolved driver issues with modern video cards. Haven't tried it meself, but I hear it's quite the problem.

Why's that?

Bigger screen = more pixels to push around. The more pixels, the more work for the graphics card. Big screens plus mobile graphics cards usually equals teh suck.

As for which machine I'd recommend, obviously I'd go with the fifteen inch version, with Windows 7 Pro 64-bit preinstalled. Shame you can't opt out of the Blu-ray drive, but then you can't have everything.

[pevergreen]

As for which machine I'd recommend, obviously I'd go with the fifteen inch version, with Windows 7 Pro 64-bit preinstalled. Shame you can't opt out of the Blu-ray drive, but then you can't have everything.

This.

[Lemur]

If you were to pick one of the two, which would it be?

Just to clarify, I'd pick the 15" model with the 280M graphics card, this one, were I buying for myself.

Well, to be honest, if I were buying for myself I'd wait and see what the Jan 27th refresh of the Macbook Pro line brought, then I'd take the plunge. Apple makes a nice, nice laptop, and the ability to boot seamlessly into OS X and Windows would be very nice. Plus, Apple and Intel have some sort of mutual beard-soaping thing where Apple gets the newest mobile chips first, so some sort of really hot-to-trot i5 mobile is prolly going to show up real soon.

[pevergreen]

Just to clarify, I'd pick the 15" model with the 280M graphics card, this one, were I buying for myself.

Well, to be honest, if I were buying for myself I'd wait and see what the Jan 27th refresh of the Macbook Pro line brought, then I'd take the plunge. Apple makes a nice, nice laptop, and the ability to boot seamlessly into OS X and Windows would be very nice. Plus, Apple and Intel have some sort of mutual beard-soaping thing where Apple gets the newest mobile chips first, so some sort of really hot-to-trot i5 mobile is prolly going to show up real soon.

See, you say all this nice stuff, then you go ruin it by suggesting Mac.


Why can't you be consistant!

[Subotan]

Just to clarify, I'd pick the 15" model with the 280M graphics card, this one, were I buying for myself.

Cool

Well, to be honest, if I were buying for myself I'd wait and see what the Jan 27th refresh of the Macbook Pro line brought, then I'd take the plunge. Apple makes a nice, nice laptop, and the ability to boot seamlessly into OS X and Windows would be very nice. Plus, Apple and Intel have some sort of mutual beard-soaping thing where Apple gets the newest mobile chips first, so some sort of really hot-to-trot i5 mobile is prolly going to show up real soon.

I could never bring myself to be a Mac user, so that's out of the question.

[Fragony]

I could never bring myself to be a Mac user, so that's out of the question.

Why is that, it runs windows much better and you have a much better looking/feeling (yes feeling I love that keyboard and touchpad) machine to run it on. The latest line are also equipped with a solid graphical card have yet to see a hick-up. Awesome gaming machine means poor working machine, if you also want to use it for university I would get a good desktop and get a cheap wordpad for your notes.

[Beskar]

You need faster processor speeds. I believe Sims 3 for example needed 2.4 Dual Core as minimum, for example. The speeds in the laptops listed look quite far below that.

[Beskar]

Why is that, it runs windows much better and you have a much better looking/feeling (yes feeling I love that keyboard and touchpad) machine to run it on. The latest line are also equipped with a solid graphical card have yet to see a hick-up. Awesome gaming machine means poor working machine, if you also want to use it for university I would get a good desktop and get a cheap wordpad for your notes.

But then, he needs to pay far more money in excess just for a machine branded "Mac".

[pevergreen]

You need faster processor speeds. I believe Sims 3 for example needed 2.4 Dual Core as minimum, for example. The speeds in the laptops listed look quite far below that.

Hmmm Dual vs Quad

[Fragony]

Apple is a truly annoying company with all that guru-bull and their adds make me want to kill something, but imho they are worth their price as it are just excellent laptops. You pay a little bit more but when you translate that into the time you save using it it's a perfectly fine choice.

[Subotan]

Why is that, it runs windows much better and you have a much better looking/feeling (yes feeling I love that keyboard and touchpad) machine to run it on. The latest line are also equipped with a solid graphical card have yet to see a hick-up. Awesome gaming machine means poor working machine, if you also want to use it for university I would get a good desktop and get a cheap wordpad for your notes.

Because:

But then, he needs to pay far more money in excess just for a machine branded "Mac".

And also, I don't play the latest, graphically intense games., so It'll probably do fine.

You need faster processor speeds. I believe Sims 3 for example needed 2.4 Dual Core as minimum, for example. The speeds in the laptops listed look quite far below that.

And I would be playing Sims 3...why?

Apple is a truly annoying company with all that guru-bull and their adds make me want to kill something, but imho they are worth their price as it are just excellent laptops. You pay a little bit more but when you translate that into the time you save using it it's a perfectly fine choice.

Maybe, but I just don't like them. I have an iPod to be fair, as they are the best MP3 players on the market, but the actual Macs? No way.

[Beskar]

And I would be playing Sims 3...why?

That wasn't the point... it was an example I remembered from the top of my head, due to my friend having the game and owning a laptop and said about the trouble he had.

Replace "Sims 3" with "Generic New Game".

[Subotan]

Like I said, I don't really play brand spanking new games, so it wouldn't be that much of a problem.

[Furunculus]

this is what you want:

Have a look at the 15" Acer in this link:
http://www.hexus.net/content/item.php?item=21878

New CPU
Decent GPU
Pretty cheap

[Fragony]

What good is it if it has only 4 hours of battery, two colleges and it's empty. They are poor gaming machines anyway, gaming wears your keyboard down, sweaty palms button mashing, but on a laptop the keyboard isn't as easily replaced. Get a fat custom desktop if you want to game, gaming-laptop is a little bit of everything but in the end nothing at all, not that powerful for games, and not of that much use for work.

[Subotan]

this is what you want:

Have a look at the 15" Acer in this link:
http://www.hexus.net/content/item.php?item=21878

New CPU
Decent GPU
Pretty cheap

Looks interesting. What does everyone else think?

What good is it if it has only 4 hours of battery, two colleges and it's empty. They are poor gaming machines anyway, gaming wears your keyboard down, sweaty palms button mashing, but on a laptop the keyboard isn't as easily replaced. Get a fat custom desktop if you want to game, gaming-laptop is a little bit of everything but in the end nothing at all, not that powerful for games, and not of that much use for work.

Hence my "trying to square a circle" comment. I'm going to university, so I'll need a laptop anyway, and I'd like one that could play EB II/Paradox Games/TF2. Getting a desktop isn't an option.

[Furunculus]

What good is it if it has only 4 hours of battery, two colleges and it's empty. They are poor gaming machines anyway, gaming wears your keyboard down, sweaty palms button mashing, but on a laptop the keyboard isn't as easily replaced. Get a fat custom desktop if you want to game, gaming-laptop is a little bit of everything but in the end nothing at all, not that powerful for games, and not of that much use for work.

i agree, but if you must have one machine, and it must be portable then this acer is a pretty good compromise at a very cheap price.

[Husar]

Either buy the one Lemur chose, or the one Furunculus suggested.

A Macbook doesn't eat Crysis for breakfast at all, there are few if any desktops capable of that.
Of course Fragony's definition of "eats for breakfast" might be "runs fine on low/medium".

[Lemur]

The Acer looks nice as well, and I've had slightly better experiences with ATI graphics cards than Nvidia, but your mileage may vary. Certainly the 5650 mobile is probably going to have a little more oomph than the 280M, but I couldn't say how noticeable the difference may be.*

For a laptop, I would also prefer the i5 to the i7 for reasons of heat, battery life, longevity, etc., so yeah, the Acer looks a bit better.

As for Mac, I don't really understand the love or the hate. Ignore their marketing. Ignore whatever "status" they attempt to attach to their products. Just look at the machines and the OS on their own merits, and go from there.

My thinking is simple to the point of stupidity: They make a very nice laptop, and a fully supported, easy-to-use variant of BSD Unix is nothing to sneeze at. Being able to put my computer-idiot aunt on a laptop that is relatively secure out of the box is a good thing. And as a my database geek buddy said, "You have no idea what it's like to get a Unix laptop that just works."

As for the Mac price premium, (a) it isn't so terrible, depending on how smart you are about model, make, etc., and (b) commercial OS development has to get subsidized somehow. Microsoft has the Office line which subsidizes their OS, and Apple has the hardware. Somebody pays somewhere at some point to subsidize several thousand code monkeys maintaining and updating the OS. That's just how the world works right now, unless you're ready to commit to Linux.

-edit-

*I was as wrong as a wrong person could be, mixing up my model numbers. The 5650 is slower than the 280M, by a very measurable margin. Chart here. I was thinking of the Radeon 5850 mobile, which should be on the market shortly.

[Furunculus]

ati are being cheeky.

what is a 58xx on desktop is a 1600 shader part (2.10B transistors)
what is a 58xx on mobile is a 800 shader part (1.07B transistors)

what is a 57/6xx on desktop is a 800 shader part (1.07B transistors)
what is a 57/6xx on mobile is a 400 shader part (0.67B transistors)

what is a 54/5xx on desktop is a 400 shader part (0.67B transistors)
what is a 54/5xx on mobile is a 80 shader part (0.24B transistors)

still a £500 laptop with a 400 shader GPU with a 128bit DDR5 bus is good value.

[Subotan]

The Acer looks nice as well, and I've had slightly better experiences with ATI graphics cards than Nvidia, but your mileage may vary. Certainly the 5650 mobile is probably going to have a little more oomph than the 280M, but I couldn't say how noticeable the difference may be.*

For a laptop, I would also prefer the i5 to the i7 for reasons of heat, battery life, longevity, etc., so yeah, the Acer looks a bit better

Battery wouldn't be a huge problem, as it's mostly going to be a replacement desktop, than can move from Point A (My house) to Point B (Oxford).
Besides, according to this ( http://forum.notebookreview.com/showthread.php?t=382561 ), it has a silent mode, which extends battery life to about three hours, which is fine for me.

As for Mac, I don't really understand the love or the hate. Ignore their marketing. Ignore whatever "status" they attempt to attach to their products. Just look at the machines and the OS on their own merits, and go from there.

Personally, I think they're overrated for the kind of stuff I'd do on it (Word processing/Internet/Gamez). But that's just my opinion. I won't be doing anything like graphic design or composition on it, so all the neat features it has aren't that relevant.

ati are being cheeky.

what is a 58xx on desktop is a 1600 shader part (2.10B transistors)
what is a 58xx on mobile is a 800 shader part (1.07B transistors)

what is a 57/6xx on desktop is a 800 shader part (1.07B transistors)
what is a 57/6xx on mobile is a 400 shader part (0.67B transistors)

what is a 54/5xx on desktop is a 400 shader part (0.67B transistors)
what is a 54/5xx on mobile is a 80 shader part (0.24B transistors)

Huh? I don't understand

still a £500 laptop with a 400 shader GPU with a 128bit DDR5 bus is good value.

I agree, but as I said at the start, money isn't a problem (Compensation for a car accident that happened when I was 10, but I don't get access to it until I'm 18 ). I should probably be responsible, but I need a new gaming computer anyway, and I deserve a treat after my A Levels

[Furunculus]

Huh? I don't understand

I agree, but as I said at the start, money isn't a problem (Compensation for a car accident that happened when I was 10, but I don't get access to it until I'm 18 ). I should probably be responsible, but I need a new gaming computer anyway, and I deserve a treat after my A Levels

basically you would presume that the codename, i.e. 58xx or 57xx would refer to the GPU, and you know the desktop 58xx comes with 1600 shaders which is rockin, so you assume that the mobile 58xx would also come with 1600 shaders.
but it doesn't, the mobile 58xx is the same GPU as the desktop 57xx, and thus only has 800 shaders, not the 1600 you assume given the model name.

that said, the new ATI mobile 58xx card (with 800 shaders & DDR5) is in my opinion the best mobile GPU you can get, and if money is not an object i would find a laptop that has one of them inside (probably a 17" chassis).

[Subotan]

basically you would presume that the codename, i.e. 58xx or 57xx would refer to the GPU, and you know the desktop 58xx comes with 1600 shaders which is rockin, so you assume that the mobile 58xx would also come with 1600 shaders.
but it doesn't, the mobile 58xx is the same GPU as the desktop 57xx, and thus only has 800 shaders, not the 1600 you assume given the model name

Ah! Sneaky!

that said, the new ATI mobile 58xx card (with 800 shaders & DDR5) is in my opinion the best mobile GPU you can get, and if money is not an object i would find a laptop that has one of them inside (probably a 17" chassis).

Any suggestions?

[Tellos Athenaios]

Note. Lemur's assessment of screen size is not correct. It is not physical size but resolution that matters as far as FPS go; and it should be noted that the Novatech sports a 1080* resolution (1080p or 1080i) even though it has only a 15.6" screen. Furthermore its 17" alternative has the exact same resolution.

Why Lemur's rule of thumb works in practice is that bigger screens (usually) have larger resolutions to keep the pictures sharp and clear. But as mentioned the Novatech has a same high resolution as your average 22inch monitor so you should compare it to a typical 22inch monitor. The real issue with these monitors are: power draw (bigger monitors draw more power; and it is worsened by the fact that most power-saving strategies do not work as well with monitors), price (are they worth it to you?), and portability.

As for processor speeds the Corei have this ‘turbo boost’ feature which alters the clock speed on demand. This means you should get about 2.2-2.5Ghz when running only 2 cores, 1.9-2.2.Ghz when running 3, and 2.8Ghz when running 1. http://ark.intel.com/Product.aspx?id=43122

Because the TW games are not heavily multi threaded you will likely not run all 4 or 3 cores when playing which means you should get performance similar to a 2.2-2.5Ghz dual core processor [but which dual core heavily depends on (relative) cache size]. In more day-to-day tasks (especially number crunching tasks) you may see some benefit from using a 64bit OS as well.