Archery animations

[Cute Wolf]

If you read the text in my first post, you would know...

I made this thread because I think the new archer animations for EB are incorrect and I wanted to let the team know. I posted those videos because I thought the EB team would want to see some sources.

But as far as I cab recognize.... the archery techniques that used on that video was definitely asian, not only japan, but that was closer to asian styled archery arts. that way they draw bows was definitely used for drawing bamboo / composite bows, with direct pull, wait, and shot. AFAIK, self bows used in europe (and mediterranians) will quickly break if you try to use direct pulls. so withdrawing closer to the body first, and quickly relase the arrow. Waiting and aiming for too long will compromise with the strength on your self bow.

[Tuuvi]

But as far as I cab recognize.... the archery techniques that used on that video was definitely asian, not only japan, but that was closer to asian styled archery arts. that way they draw bows was definitely used for drawing bamboo / composite bows, with direct pull, wait, and shot. AFAIK, self bows used in europe (and mediterranians) will quickly break if you try to use direct pulls. so withdrawing closer to the body first, and quickly relase the arrow. Waiting and aiming for too long will compromise with the strength on your self bow.

I didn't know that the shooting style used in the first video was asian. As I said before I shoot the same way and I haven't studied asian archery technique. The problem I find with the EB animations is not how they draw the bow but with the release and follow through. If you watch the EB video on the new animations the archers make a jerking motion with their arm and hand when releasing the arrow. This isn't necessary and is bad form. I learned that when releasing the arrow you want to hold your position until the arrow hits the target, because any sudden movements you make after shooting could mess up your aim. I disagree with you when it comes to shooting and self bows. If a self-bow is properly made and tillered it is in little danger of breaking as long as it is taken good care of. The only way you could break such a bow by shooting is if it is drawn farther than it was tillered to draw.

I hope I'm not being nitpicky, I was just watching the video in the thread Cute Wolf started and as an archer I noticed that the animations weren't correct so I thought I would point that out to the EB team.

[Cute Wolf]

Your "correction" was completely right if we talk about steppe / eastern archers armed with composite bows. But when we talk about western self-bows archers (as the Toxotai in da video), the Jerking movement was done to reduce the strains they put on the self bows.

[Tuuvi]

Well I disagree with you there. Like I said before a self bow that is properly made and tillered isn't going to break very easily and no change in shooting style is needed to reduce strain. The only way you could damage a self bow while shooting is if you over draw the bow,and even then the bow is more likely to take a massive set before it breaks. Watch the second video and you will see that their shooting technique isn't a whole lot different from the guy in the first video. The bows they are shooting in the second video are self-bows.

[-Praetor-]

The EB team appreciates very much your suggestions.

Since I'm partly in charge of the animations department, I would like to let you know that I made some of the archery animations. We don't have any accurate description, other than sporadic paintings and other visual reference, on how archery was practiced on the 3rd C. BC. So, while your suggestion is accurate for XX or even XV C. AD archery, it might not be entirely true for ancient warfare. However, we may want to change it in the future, since your theory makes sense, but it would be ideal to see vase paintings of the epoch, depicting the exact moment of release, to see whether the archer maintains his hand precisely on the position of the draw, or if he moves it after release.

If there aren't, it would be quite reckless to call our current animation as "incorrect".

We won't modify this animation in the first release. We've been working on other animations at the minute, and going back to correct things already made will put us behind schedule. But if we see evidence that isn't anachronistic for our context, we will definitively change it on future releases.

Thanks!

[ziegenpeter]

it would be ideal to see vase paintings of the epoch, depicting the exact moment of release, to see whether the archer maintains his hand precisely on the position of the draw, or if he moves it after release.

Setting aside the discussion about the use and accuracy of pictorial representation for archeology, reenactment and so on in general, I still wonder whether you could really trust an image in that specific case. I mean this is imho something only an expert would recognize (until this thread I didn't even know about these different shooting techniques) and even though an artist of the antiquity might be much closer to poeple who use bow&arrow than an average person of today's western culture, I still have doubts, if only based on common sense, that we can reconstruct the exact movement of antiquity's archery by using vase paintings.

[Tuuvi]

The EB team appreciates very much your suggestions.

Since I'm partly in charge of the animations department, I would like to let you know that I made some of the archery animations. We don't have any accurate description, other than sporadic paintings and other visual reference, on how archery was practiced on the 3rd C. BC. So, while your suggestion is accurate for XX or even XV C. AD archery, it might not be entirely true for ancient warfare. However, we may want to change it in the future, since your theory makes sense, but it would be ideal to see vase paintings of the epoch, depicting the exact moment of release, to see whether the archer maintains his hand precisely on the position of the draw, or if he moves it after release.

If there aren't, it would be quite reckless to call our current animation as "incorrect".

We won't modify this animation in the first release. We've been working on other animations at the minute, and going back to correct things already made will put us behind schedule. But if we see evidence that isn't anachronistic for our context, we will definitively change it on future releases.

Thanks!

Yea I admit I based my criticism on the assumption that archery form hasn't changed much over time. I'm glad that this thread was helpful to the team, even if only a little bit.

[geala]

I think it is not possible to judge the position of the hand pre and after release from vase pictures. It had to be a comic like set of pictures to get to a good conclusion. I studied a lot of ancient Greek paintings (but mostly from classical time) with bow pictures and never saw one that gives a clear hint. What is evident is that the Greeks had another shooting style than that of the medieval western world. The arrows were mostly shot from the right side of the bow, not the left and two fingers or often thumb and finger were used to draw, however I never saw a thumb ring or a forearm protection. When you shoot from the right, no forearm protection is needed indeed. Some forearm protections are found in excavations, but they come from the Mycenean period as far as I know.

The second video with the English war bows is very interesting. At the beginning it shows clearly the near total failure to penetrate even 1,2 mm of the steel panel (which I presume was in addition also not overhardened like the better 15th c. war armors). However it is only a 100 lbs bow and the fact that we have some (very few) reliable stories about penetration of knightly armor is another argument that the 15th c. war bow had pull weights between 120 and 170 lbs, with the most frequent weight near150 lbs.