StarWars: Return of the Sith [Concluded]

[Renata]

OK, Diamondeye was promoted to Grand Master on night five, upon Chaotix' death.

On Night Six:
-- Gun Han Saresh (Sasaki) killed by cloaked person using force choke. Mention of speed.
-- Corran Horn (Joooray) killed by cloaked person, amber eyes, using lightsaber (lightsaber is used very well)
-- Keyan Farlander (GeneralHankerchief) investigated by force drain (Diamondeye)

On Night Seven:
-- Atris (Kagemusha) killed by lightsaber (ditto), cloaked person. Mention of speed.
-- Micah Giett (Secura) killed by choke, amber eyes, cloak
-- Belth Allusis (I don't know who this is) is roleblocked (Diamondeye)
-- Atris (Kagemusha) is to be investigated, but is already dead (Diamondeye)

On Night Eight:
-- Kenth Hamner (atheotes) killed by figure in dark cloak, amber eyes, using force avalanche (which beat force push)
-- Keyan Farlander (GeneralHankerchief) killed by figure in dark cloak, amber eyes, using force lightning. This is the first time there is no lightsaber used for either kill. There's no mention of speed in either kill, either.
-- Niklas is investigated by force drain (Diamondeye)
-- Psychonaut is roleblocked (Diamondeye)

On Night Nine:
-- Psychonaut is roleblocked and investigated by force drain (Diamondeye, two actions)
-- Luke Skywalker (Diana Abnoba) faces recruitment, but is unrecruitable and is killed. Dark cloak, amber eyes

The idea with roleblocking Psychonaut was that it looked possible that both kills on Night eight had been performed by Niklas, who knew he would most likely have his lynch immunity drained. Psychonaut seemed likelier to face the roleblock on that night (which he did). So Diamondeye's suggestion, which I later agreed with and expanded on, was to roleblock Psychonaut (and investigate someone else), which should stop him recruiting or killing whether he was investigation-immune or not. On closer inspection of the write-up, it looks like Diamondeye in fact did both investigate and roleblock Psychonaut, so his claimed two actions are accounted for. As they are in fact every night since night seven. (BTW with Psychonaut now in the clear it looks likelier that if there was any trickery going on with the kills on that night, it was Niklas' partner doing both kills, not him.)

The question is how many actions a Sith Lord (who is also a Grand Master) might get. He'd have to have at least three in order to account for last night; a town Grand Master would have only two.

Here's what I have *against* DE:

There are some suggestive coincidences (here I go with the coincidences again) involving DE's investigations. DE investigates GeneralHankerchief, reports innocence, a couple of nights later GH (who was at least as much lynchbait as some other people still alive) is dead. DE investigates Kagemusha; he's dead the same night. It looks rather a lot like the results you'd expect if you had someone on your mafia team doing investigations and wanted to keep the number of confirmed innocents down to something manageable. Right now we have one and a half (Psychonaut, and Pizzaguy unless the Sith Lord is immune to Beskar's investigation type) -- if Kagemusha and GH were still alive we'd have two more.

DE revealed to me rather easily, and it was prompted by a partial reveal to Niklas prior. I had been suspicious of DE; Niklas said he was suspicious of DE; Niklas got out of DE that he had a protective ability. I agreed with Niklas we needed to tag-team DE to get the straight story. I did so the next day by myself, with Niklas not around, and DE basically just popped out with the whole thing. The day after that, Niklas did not ask me if I had spoken with DE (this was still prior to the QT issue coming up).

DE hasn't accounted for who he was protecting prior to his promotion to Grand Master. He said he didn't have the sent PMs (which is plausible; it's just a profile setting, IIRC) and didn't remember (which is a bit less plausible). One thing which I'm amazed I didn't think to ask at the time -- why didn't he try to protect Chaotix? (Convo not cleaned up, no time.)

I don't even want to try to judge this given how wrong I've gotten things so far. Up to the rest of you.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

4/26/2010 3:18:41 PM Renata Marcus niklas says you soft claimed to him yesterday
4/26/2010 3:18:44 PM Marcus Renata I did.
4/26/2010 3:18:52 PM Renata Marcus would you like to expand on it?
4/26/2010 3:18:54 PM Marcus Renata And I guessed he spilled it.
4/26/2010 3:19:16 PM Marcus Renata I don't know what to say... I recieved a protective power on the very first night... pre-game, I believe.
4/26/2010 3:19:48 PM Marcus Renata By one of the Jedi holocrons (the other person who recieved a power that night was Beskar, by his own words).
4/26/2010 3:20:06 PM Renata Marcus brb
4/26/2010 3:20:13 PM Marcus Renata I've managed to send in orders every night except the one with Ibn...
4/26/2010 3:20:30 PM Marcus Renata Which was the only one where I had a decent chance of guessing the mafia's target...
4/26/2010 3:21:59 PM Renata Marcus i thought the night one holocron visitors were accounted for
4/26/2010 3:22:10 PM Marcus Renata hmm?
4/26/2010 3:22:11 PM Renata Marcus or night zero, rather
4/26/2010 3:22:16 PM Marcus Renata Beskar and who, then?
4/26/2010 3:22:16 PM Renata Marcus beskar being one
4/26/2010 3:22:22 PM Renata Marcus i had thought it was csargo
4/26/2010 3:22:37 PM Marcus Renata Is he alive? I'm not viewing the thraed.
4/26/2010 3:22:45 PM Renata Marcus no, he was killed
4/26/2010 3:23:01 PM Renata Marcus who did you protect every night?
4/26/2010 3:23:09 PM Marcus Renata I can't remember on-hand.
4/26/2010 3:23:15 PM Marcus Renata I protected Beskar the first night.
4/26/2010 3:23:21 PM Marcus Renata After his claim...
4/26/2010 3:23:28 PM Renata Marcus did he know?
4/26/2010 3:23:32 PM Marcus Renata No.
4/26/2010 3:23:51 PM Marcus Renata Prior to my reveal to Niklas, only Chaotix knew of my role.
4/26/2010 3:23:55 PM Renata Marcus and you sent in orders every night *but* the plain as day one
4/26/2010 3:24:01 PM Renata Marcus kinda convenient
4/26/2010 3:24:11 PM Renata Marcus who are you, then?
4/26/2010 3:24:38 PM Marcus Renata I'd love to say that but I'd like to know something about you first.
4/26/2010 3:24:53 PM Marcus Renata My name's on Obi Wan's list.
4/26/2010 3:25:02 PM Renata Marcus lol. so's almost everybody
4/26/2010 3:25:16 PM Marcus Renata Yeah but when I asked Niklas, that was all he was willing to say aswell.
4/26/2010 3:25:33 PM Marcus Renata I guess it's reasonable to keep a kind of anonymity towards people you don't trust 100 %.
4/26/2010 3:25:40 PM Marcus Renata brb turning my LP.
4/26/2010 3:25:44 PM Renata Marcus ok
4/26/2010 3:26:07 PM Marcus Renata back.
4/26/2010 3:26:35 PM Marcus Renata So, anyway, are you going to spill me some beans, too, or am I the sitting duck of the Renata-Niklas mafia Inquisition?
4/26/2010 3:26:54 PM Renata Marcus you're the sitting duck, pretty much
4/26/2010 3:27:26 PM Marcus Renata That's great. I hope I've spilled enough to satisfy you, then.
4/26/2010 3:27:54 PM Renata Marcus well, i would like the role name. i can't think of any reason not to give it to me, as if i were mafia, you'd have already given me enough to kill you about five times over
4/26/2010 3:28:24 PM Marcus Renata Nancy... I've got this gut feeling that I am going to regret telling you.
4/26/2010 3:28:30 PM Marcus Renata So:
4/26/2010 3:28:34 PM Marcus Renata If I tell you...
4/26/2010 3:28:50 PM Marcus Renata 1: You WON'T tell anyone, cross swear on mother's grave etc.
4/26/2010 3:28:57 PM Marcus Renata 2: You spill your full role info.
4/26/2010 3:29:24 PM Marcus Renata And that's generous because I don't like keeping secrets from you..!
4/26/2010 3:29:50 PM Renata Marcus sorry, my son is having potty issues atm
4/26/2010 3:29:58 PM Renata Marcus 1 is fine
4/26/2010 3:30:01 PM Renata Marcus 2 i'll think
4/26/2010 3:30:02 PM Renata Marcus brb
4/26/2010 3:30:05 PM Marcus Renata cool.
4/26/2010 3:32:09 PM Renata Marcus back
4/26/2010 3:32:49 PM Renata Marcus ok
4/26/2010 3:32:50 PM Renata Marcus deal
4/26/2010 3:33:00 PM Marcus Renata Grand Master Qui Gon Jinn.
4/26/2010 3:33:07 PM Renata Marcus no kidding
4/26/2010 3:33:14 PM Marcus Renata No kidding.
4/26/2010 3:33:18 PM Renata Marcus hahaha
4/26/2010 3:33:25 PM Marcus Renata Understand my caution?
4/26/2010 3:33:31 PM Renata Marcus should i keep up lynch pressure on you, just a teensy bit?
4/26/2010 3:33:42 PM Renata Marcus migth keep you alive longer
4/26/2010 3:33:45 PM Renata Marcus but anyway, yeah
4/26/2010 3:33:51 PM Renata Marcus i am tahiri veila, padawan
4/26/2010 3:34:01 PM Renata Marcus i was called to the holocron on i think night five
4/26/2010 3:34:10 PM Renata Marcus (the night there was only one person called, referred to as "she")
4/26/2010 3:34:16 PM Marcus Renata All right.
4/26/2010 3:34:21 PM Marcus Renata What power did you recieve?
4/26/2010 3:34:26 PM Renata Marcus a defense one
4/26/2010 3:34:33 PM Marcus Renata Brilliant. Thank you :)

[Askthepizzaguy]

ok so i keep catching up and then losing ground and then i say okay ill see how this develops before i vote. and thne i miss the vote and get behind again.

My attention is now on this fantastic game i should be paying better attention to.

vote: split

god said to :D

A terrible vote.

Vote: Centurion1 finally post again, but only after you're pointed out as not having enough posts, and should have been WOG'd by now. And on top of that, you pick one of the only players, that just replaced an inactive player that was WOG'd, and mafia have been active every phase. Very scummy!!

I also like the pressure on white_eyes, and Niklas, something is just off there.

As you wish, my love.

Vote: Centurion1

[TinCow]

Thank you for the information, Renata. There is a lot of damning evidence in there about Diamondeye. Before I dig into it though, I'd like some confirmation from Psychonaut and/or Chaotix that ALL of these actions were indeed performed by Diamondeye:

On Night Seven:
-- Belth Allusis (I don't know who this is) is roleblocked (Diamondeye)
-- Atris (Kagemusha) is to be investigated, but is already dead (Diamondeye)

On Night Eight:
-- Niklas is investigated by force drain (Diamondeye)
-- Psychonaut is roleblocked (Diamondeye)

I have a follow-up question as well. If Diamondeye DID perform all of these actions himself, what was Psychonaut doing?

[Chaotix]

Did you guys seriously force-reveal Qui-Gon in the thread? REALLY?

Did what happened to me have no impact on your opinions at all? I'm Yoda, and even I could not survive an attack by the Sith. What do you think is going to happen to Diamondeye now, hmm?

Brilliant.

[Centurion1]

im just saying im a normal padawan (i think thats a townie.... ) and i should be paying more attention but its hard to read through all this with rl in the way.

sorry sigurd, you and your game deserve better.

[pevergreen]

Vote: TinCow

Trying too hard and if DE is Qui Gon, I want to keep my favourite Jedi alive a bit longer.

[ULC]

Did you guys seriously force-reveal Qui-Gon in the thread? REALLY?

Did what happened to me have no impact on your opinions at all? I'm Yoda, and even I could not survive an attack by the Sith. What do you think is going to happen to Diamondeye now, hmm?

Brilliant.

You survived one attack, you didn't survive a second. There is only one Sith now, who is pretty much wandering in the dark, looking for a convert that they're likely to never find. DE should be quite invulnerable right now.

[Chaotix]

About those actions:

-Diamondeye claims to have investigated Niklas and gotten a guilty result at some point. I forget which night this is.
-Nobody can perform two actions on two different people. So Diamondeye did not try to investigate Atris. Does it explicitly mention Qui Gon in that write-up?
-I believe Psychonaut has only limited protection ability as of now.

I am lost in the clues right now. I'm trying to make sense of what's going on. There is no doubt that Diamondeye is who he says he is. However, I find it hard to believe he could be the original Sith Lord. It doesn't fit Qui-Gon. Can a Sith Lord even become the Grand Master?

[naut]

Thank you for the information, Renata. There is a lot of damning evidence in there about Diamondeye. Before I dig into it though, I'd like some confirmation from Psychonaut and/or Chaotix that ALL of these actions were indeed performed by Diamondeye:

You'll want Chaotix to confirm. Diamondeye was never revealed to be Qui-Gon to me.

I have a follow-up question as well. If Diamondeye DID perform all of these actions himself, what was Psychonaut doing?

The one you quoted, as I've already said, I did nothing. I can use to one action with two abilities, and I had two defensive abilities (one of which Diamondeye drained last night), and the previous day I issued a challenge to the Sith, so I was waiting for them to attack me, which never happened.

----------

Interesting stuff Renata. I'm inclined to believe Diamondeye, you've put him in a similar situation to the one I have been in for most of the game. Kindred spirits and what-not. And Chaotix is right, we really need to stop revealing our strongest roles in thread, it's doing the Sith's job for them.

----------

I've already stayed up too late, but I still haven't recieved the result PM

The basic run-down is you blocked and investigated me, and you took a defensive ability. But, please confirm when you get the chance.

[Sasaki Kojiro]

Looking at the alive list...bandwagon autolycus?

[autolycus]

I'm going to agree with Diamondeye here and vote:White_Eyes. I'm inclined to not believe that Qui-gon is our Sith Lord. TinCow I'm all but positive is clean. I would like some more contribution from Centurion.

[Diana Abnoba]

Dang it dead again, I knew it was coming, well at least I lasted longer than usually do. Best of luck town!!

[Diamondeye]

Dropping by real fast before I have to go out the door...

About those actions:

-Diamondeye claims to have investigated Niklas and gotten a guilty result at some point. I forget which night this is.
-Nobody can perform two actions on two different people. So Diamondeye did not try to investigate Atris. Does it explicitly mention Qui Gon in that write-up?
-I believe Psychonaut has only limited protection ability as of now.

I am lost in the clues right now. I'm trying to make sense of what's going on. There is no doubt that Diamondeye is who he says he is. However, I find it hard to believe he could be the original Sith Lord. It doesn't fit Qui-Gon. Can a Sith Lord even become the Grand Master?

The same night there was a Master upgrade (two actions on same player), there was a Grandmaster upgrade (two actions targets, each 1-2 actions).

You'll want Chaotix to confirm. Diamondeye was never revealed to be Qui-Gon to me.


The one you quoted, as I've already said, I did nothing. I can use to one action with two abilities, and I had two defensive abilities (one of which Diamondeye drained last night), and the previous day I issued a challenge to the Sith, so I was waiting for them to attack me, which never happened.

----------

Interesting stuff Renata. I'm inclined to believe Diamondeye, you've put him in a similar situation to the one I have been in for most of the game. Kindred spirits and what-not. And Chaotix is right, we really need to stop revealing our strongest roles in thread, it's doing the Sith's job for them.

----------

The basic run-down is you blocked and investigated me, and you took a defensive ability. But, please confirm when you get the chance.

Confirmed. I've got myself some defense now, which seems to be perfect timing considering I am a sitting duck of sith attacks tonight.

TinCow, I had Sigurd send me my protection orders before I assumed the Grandmaster title, I'll find them later. Gotta go.

[naut]

Looking at the alive list...bandwagon autolycus?

I'm tempted, his post below yours is pretty suspect.

[Askthepizzaguy]

I'd suggest he's worth blocking or scanning or something tonight.

[Subotan]

Has White_Eyes been implicated by any night actions of his, or is he under pressure for his remarkably scummy behaviour in-thread alone?

For want of some investigation results, Vote:White_Eyes

[Renata]

Did you guys seriously force-reveal Qui-Gon in the thread? REALLY?

Did what happened to me have no impact on your opinions at all? I'm Yoda, and even I could not survive an attack by the Sith. What do you think is going to happen to Diamondeye now, hmm?

Brilliant.

Did you even read it, Chaotix? Diamondeye did this to himself.

[Renata]

vote: Autolycus

If not DE, and I just can't bring myself to make that call, then I think it should be him or white_eyes.

[TinCow]

Diamondeye's reveal is now making no sense at all. He claims to have been the person who force-drained Niklas... and we all know that the power that was force-drained was lynch immunity. So, Diamondeye is currently immune to lynching. Why would he then reveal his role un-prompted when he knew he would not be killed by a lynch in the first place?

I am very concerned by this whole reveal. The role is certainly legit, and since no-one has counterclaimed the night actions I assume he did indeed do them all... but his behavior is classic scum in every possible degree. For those looking for evidence of innocence in DE's guilty result on Niklas, keep in mind that was only performed AFTER the metagaming info on Niklas was posted. He was a guaranteed lynch at that point, regardless of any investigation results. In that situation, a smart mafia team would sacrifice one member to boost the prestige of another member who 'investigated' them.

As for Diamondeye being innocent because he is Grand Master... he didn't start in that role. He started as Master, like Beskar. We already know Beskar could have been recruited if he vig killed, so clearly Masters are not unconvertable. In addition, Niklas is our one confirmed Sith and his starting role was Initiate. In Midgard II, Sigurd gave the top Jotun (mafia) role a cover role PM as a Champion, which was the second-highest rank in the game, while the other mafioso got lower ranking cover role PMs. I find it entirely plausible that if Niklas' cover was Initiate, someone who started as Master could be the other starting Sith. When it comes down to it, the ONLY evidence we have of DE's innocence are the multiple night actions that we have seen in the thread. However, we have no idea how the Sith role works. If the Sith are allowed to do an action in addition to their normal cover role actions, then DE could easily be Sith.

Also note that apparently last night Diamondeye drained a defensive ability from Psychonaut. Why a defensive ability? Psychonaut was publicly exposed as a Master and was likely to be attacked at night. He needed the protection. Diamondeye was not exposed as Qui-Gon publicly, so he had less of a need or protection. What he did last night made Psychonaut vulnerable to the Sith.

Finally, please note in Renata's big post that apparently Niklas was aware of Diamondeye's role a long time ago. If he knew, then why wasn't Diamondeye attacked at any point over the last several days? Yoda was offed almost immediately by a double kill... but his GM replacement isn't worth an attack by even a solo Sith?

I suggest we lynch Diamondeye right now because he's got lynch immunity anyway and won't die. With the immunity removed, we can then get rid of him at will in the future if he remains scummy. If we leave him with lynch immunity, we risk being unable to get rid of him if we need to.

[Subotan]

I don't think we should lynch Diamondeye. Yes, his Master Role PM may be just a cover PM, but he does have a number of alibis, and the primary justification for his lynch appears to be anallegation made by a confirmed mafioso.

That said, someone who claims such a powerful role has to be investigated. Perhaps Kenobi could investigate him tonight, if he has that ability?

[TinCow]

the primary justification for his lynch appears to be anallegation made by a confirmed mafioso.

Have you read any of my posts?

[Subotan]

Yes.

Unless I see proof from others that there are night actions that PROVE he was not killing, I believe he is the strongest candidate.

https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showt...=1#post2480912

and I had two defensive abilities (one of which Diamondeye drained last night),

It appears you have your proof. Why do you want to lynch him now, considering that we might be able to investigate him tonight?

[Yaropolk]

vote: autoclys sasaki throws an accusation his way and he immediately jumps on WE BW

[pevergreen]

Theres a white eyes bandwagon?

[TinCow]

Why do you want to lynch him now, considering that we might be able to investigate him tonight?

Because he's lynch immune and won't die anyway. I do not like the idea of someone as scummy as Diamondeye remaining immune to lynching in future rounds, so best to get rid of that ability now so that we can get rid of him if we need to later on. We did the same thing to Beskar for the exact same reason.

[Subotan]

It's a waste of a lynch. There are scummier individuals such as pevergreen and WE who don't have the alibis that Diamondeyes has. We should investigate him tonight, or if anyone else can, drain that lynch ability from him if you're concerned.

[Renata]

Also note that apparently last night Diamondeye drained a defensive ability from Psychonaut. Why a defensive ability? Psychonaut was publicly exposed as a Master and was likely to be attacked at night. He needed the protection. Diamondeye was not exposed as Qui-Gon publicly, so he had less of a need or protection. What he did last night made Psychonaut vulnerable to the Sith.

Just a few comments -- Psychonaut's other known ability is the force sight, which Diamondeye has no use for (his own investigation skill is clearly better); and Psychonaut was according to him (and me) a suspect, so why not take the defense? This isn't a good argument.

Finally, please note in Renata's big post that apparently Niklas was aware of Diamondeye's role a long time ago. If he knew, then why wasn't Diamondeye attacked at any point over the last several days? Yoda was offed almost immediately by a double kill... but his GM replacement isn't worth an attack by even a solo Sith?

Niklas didn't know DE's role (if DE is town); he knew that DE claimed a protective ability (no role name attached). This in itself should have made him a decent target; however, Diamondeye was scummy in general, so a delay in killing him is not completely out of the question. Protections hardly ever work. It may even be a partial explanation for some of the unusual kill targets -- DE would certainly not have been protecting GH, for instance. What I personally find suggestive about that whole thing is Niklas never bringing up DE again after I "interrogated" him -- I'd have thought he'd have wanted to know if I found out anything.

I suggest we lynch Diamondeye right now because he's got lynch immunity anyway and won't die. With the immunity removed, we can then get rid of him at will in the future if he remains scummy. If we leave him with lynch immunity, we risk being unable to get rid of him if we need to.

This isn't a completely horrible idea. I won't argue against it if TinCow can get some support.

Subotan's got some factual mistakes in his coments but I have no time to address them.

[TinCow]

It's a waste of a lynch. There are scummier individuals such as pevergreen and WE who don't have the alibis that Diamondeyes has. We should investigate him tonight, or if anyone else can, drain that lynch ability from him if you're concerned.

I do not see any evidence that there are any other investigators or drainers. Apparently all of that info has been coming from Diamondeye himself, with the exception of the name-list info coming from Psychonaut. Psychonaut's information clearly is not very useful in identifying Sith, so I see no reason to believe that there is another Jedi out there who will be able to give us more info on Diamondeye after tonight.

[Subotan]

I do not see any evidence that there are any other investigators or drainers.

Ah, I stand corrected then. I was of the assumption that all masters could do such things.

In that case, things are a little less clear, and I'm more in tune with Renata's position on the issue.

[Sasaki Kojiro]

I agree that DE's reveal is very suspicious. Especially the haste to claim when he has a lynch immunity, and when chaotix should be able to vouch for him. And his "posting before I go out the door" aka "I know I said I wouldn't be around, so let me emphasize that I don't have much time".