Canadian Journalist Attacked by Muslims

[Banquo's Ghost]

This thread has been re-opened thanks to requests from the OP.

It has all the making of an interesting discussion and there have been some good contributions.

Please ensure that posts stick to the topic. Please bear in mind the sensitivities and beliefs of other members. Try to avoid one-dimensional generalisations.

You all know the rules, and the standards of debate that we aspire to here. I won't hesistate to hand out serious warning points to trolls who think they are being clever.

Thank you kindly.

[Banquo's Ghost]

Bumped so that it is clear the thread is open again.

[Crazed Rabbit]

Thanks, BG!

This is understood so well and to such an extent that now self-censorship has become a problem. Under Muslim intimidation - real or imagined - movies and plays are not shown and books and articles remain unpublished.

That is important. Freedom of speech needs to be cherished. Giving it up to be kind to some group is as bad as having it taken by that group.

I think the urge of Muslim leaders in the West to control their 'own' communities is demonstrated most clearly by their demand to be allowed to apply sharia law in their 'constituencies'. Canada seems to have had some experience with his, in the sense that these sharia courts are used to suppress mostly immigrant women who don't speak the language of the host country, who don't know their rights, etcetera. Such courts operate in secret, no records are kept, and verdicts are reached by judges who have difficulty counting to ten and writing their own names. Not a huge success, I believe.

Swedish Muslim leaders have demanded the same sort of sharia juridisdiction, but were treated to a loud and clear 'No' from the government.

That's interesting (and disturbing). Do you have any sources on that? To me, it seems like stopping the spread of Sharia law and insuring immigrants integrate into the justice system is an essential factor.

CR

[Ignoramus]

May I just record my disapproval of the moderators' actions in deleting Vuk's posts?

They were direct quotes from the Koran, and if Muslims get offended by their own Koran, well then that's hypocritical.

That's all, thank you.

[Crazed Rabbit]

Look, if he wants a thread about that, let him make his own thread. I don't want this thread to be dragged off-topic.

CR

[Reenk Roink]

Dear God, do I really have to dredge up a million articles where a journalist has been attacked by groups other than Muslims?

The only trend here is to demonise Muslims because a few fanatics despise being exposed. Lots and lots of other nutters do the same.

So I ask myself, what's the agenda for highlighting this particular example?

Banquo, as a believer that the sun will rise tomorrow due to the fact that it has risen in the past, you shouldn't be surprised by this.

After all, the Backroom topics are nothing but cycles coming in waves. There really is nothing new, aside from a different incident which puts up the same old themes.

After all Banquo, it is not hypocrisy or an attempt to turn universities into Jewish institutions when colleges have Kosher food specially prepared for their Jewish students, but when a foot washing thingy is announced, it certainly is hypocrisy and an attempt to turn colleges into an Islamic institution.

When a crazy man goes at kills 32 people in his college, compares himself on tape to Jesus Christ, there is never even a hint of linking Christianity to such a vile crime.

When a crazy man goes and kills 5 people at a Jewish center, it is portrayed as "Sudden Jihad Syndrome" or Islamic terrorism, despite the fact that the man is a convert to Christianity.

[Tribesman]

How many journalists were attacked at the opposition rally in Russia this weekend ?

[Louis VI the Fat]

How many journalists were attacked at the opposition rally in Russia this weekend ?

Quite a few! And this has happened before in Russia too! Intimidation, murder, censorship!

All of which leads me to believe that the freedom of the press is under duress in modern Russian culture.


Edit to add: So why should we shy away from a conclusion like that when it involves Islam?

[Tribesman]

So why should we shy away from a conclusion like that when it involves Islam?

A simple question for you Louis , would anyone dream of attributing blame on all Russians for the attacks , or claim that attacking journalists was just a russian thing ?
Surely it would have to be the case wouldn't it .
It was Russians that did it so it must be the Russians that are to blame , because ...well because thats what Russians are like .

So when you shied away from a conclusion , did you reach a conclusion as outlined above , or are you mixing conclusions?

[Louis VI the Fat]

A simple question for you Louis , would anyone dream of attributing blame on all Russians for the attacks , or claim that attacking journalists was just a russian thing ?
Surely it would have to be the case wouldn't it .
It was Russians that did it so it must be the Russians that are to blame , because ...well because thats what Russians are like .

So when you shied away from a conclusion , did you reach a conclusion as outlined above , or are you mixing conclusions?

Who's blaming all Russians or all Muslims attack journalists, or claiming that attacking journalist is unique to either?

My conclusion is really simple: journalists, artists, authors get attacked, intimidated and murdered quite a bit in a lot of places. But more so in some places and in some cultures. Hence these cultures have more of a problem with freedom of speech than others.

I'm sure I could dig up some link about some Norwegian being beat up for saying something or another. Yet nobody will claim that Norway has as much of a problem as Russia in this respect.

And Islamic culture is very much on one end of the scale. And yes, Islam is not a monolith, but no, I'm not going to break down Islamic culture into different times, places, subdivisions and what not. I'm not going to do the same for Russia either - even though we can't speak of 'Russia' as a monolithic unchangeable culture either.
I would, as soon as somebody explains to me why this nuance is implicitly understood when, say, the Guardian writes 'Freedom of press at peril in Russia' but not when somebody writes '...at peril by Islamicism'.

If freedom of speech is under duress from either the government, religious institutions or ordinary citizens, then it is. Simple as that. I'm not going to be a fool about it, or be silent about it out of sensitivity.

[Ser Clegane]

Who's blaming all Russians or all Muslims attack journalists

Here is an example

I fully agree with you though, that the reasoning behind any act of such deserves to be mentioned

[Randarkmaan]

Allow me to explain further. I am not saying that the people who follow islam are at fault, but quite the opposite! I am saying that islam is at fault. All QUOTE]lmao, I think BG just doesn't want a "touchy" thread, because then he'd have to do his job! lol
Say what you like BG, but there IS a pattern. The islamic religion teaches hate and intolerance. They do not allow anyone to say anything that they disagree with (sound familiar BG?). If you think that I am just bashing a religion, and not telling the absolute truth, I could come up with 70 million news articles and quotes from the koran that prove what I am saying.religions have had wackos that do mental things in the name of their religion, so you cannot judge a religion by the attrocities comitted by the wackos of an era. What you CAN judge a religion by (and yes, I think that judging is important here) is the "holy" books on which it is based (after all, this IS the religion. Religions regulate a way of life and inspire a set of beliefs. These ways of life and beliefs are taken directly from the "holy" books), and by a predominant, continuing trend throughout centuries. Judging islam by those criteria yields the conclusion that islam is a religion of hate, of war, of intolerance, and of violence. (We will leave morality out of this discussion :P)

The religion of islam started out as...AN ARMY!! It was formed, and the koran was based on the writings of one of the most violent, perverse men in history! It is the most intolerant religion in the world!! It condemns ALL other religions (except, it is funny, that it had EXTREMELY good relations with jews when first invented. Kind of ironic...), all other races except, arabic, turk, and indian (yes, again, rather ironically, it condemns blacks as well), it condemns WOMEN!!!

The "islamic nation" has committed more, and larger, more filthy genocides than anyone else in the world!!! Even more than Stalin!!! (who WAY out-did Hitler!)

Muslims in todays society are calling for an over-throw from within of Western nations! The have raped, killed, enslaved, and persecuted all they have conquered! (which includes much of Europe, till the West declared the Crusades in responce and finally weakened them enough to blunt the offensive...Yes, that is right, the Crusades were in responce to centuries of muslim conquest.)

I'll be back online Monday and will be perfectly willing to prove ANYTHING I said that you may think untrue, unreasonable, unfounded, or slanderous. One request? Think before you post and do not flood me with responces to answer. ;)
Hope that will give you something to think of,

Vuk... you're out of your little mind, my friend.

Muslims in todays society are calling for an over-throw from within of Western nations! The have raped, killed, enslaved, and persecuted all they have conquered! (which includes much of Europe, till the West declared the Crusades in responce and finally weakened them enough to blunt the offensive...Yes, that is right, the Crusades were in responce to centuries of muslim conquest.)

Yay! The Crusades blunted the offensive! Although they didn't really achieve anything else than a latin country that existed in the middle east for a while, primarily because it took time for the Muslims to find a reason to remove them. Three centuries later and south eastern Europe was ruled by Muslims.

The "islamic nation" has committed more, and larger, more filthy genocides than anyone else in the world!!! Even more than Stalin!!! (who WAY out-did Hitler!)

How do you know this? I haven't really heard about any genocides, atleast not real ones, massacres of course, but those happen everywhere. And I think they would have to really well to outdo Stalin, in numbers, and Hitler in, cruelty and efficiency.

The religion of islam started out as...AN ARMY!! It was formed, and the koran was based on the writings of one of the most violent, perverse men in history! It is the most intolerant religion in the world!! It condemns ALL other religions (except, it is funny, that it had EXTREMELY good relations with jews when first invented. Kind of ironic...), all other races except, arabic, turk, and indian (yes, again, rather ironically, it condemns blacks as well), it condemns WOMEN!!!

It does not condemn all other religions, it "accepts" christianity and Judaism as flawed but valid religions, though pagans are to be considered idolators and unbelievers. But Monotheistic religions tend to have it built into them the belief that they are the only true religion and that they reject all others, they may allow others to keep their faith, but they will tell you that you will burn in hell if you do. Actually in Islam everyone who is a muslim is supposed to be equal, though they haven't really followed that (who has anyway?) and there may be some things in it, such as the status of women, that contradicts the "all are equal" thing. It does not condemn blacks, but people tend to be racists. Like you perhaps? You claim muslims are intolerant, but what are you then? I don't think Muslims would fare well in a society run by you... maybe sent of to some nice vacation camps? Alot of this is reminiscent of what people said of Jews in the middle ages, they thought they kidnapped and sacrificed children.

[Tribesman]

I would, as soon as somebody explains to me why this nuance is implicitly understood when, say, the Guardian writes 'Freedom of press at peril in Russia' but not when somebody writes '...at peril by Islamicism'.

There is nothing wrong when someone writes that , but too often it is written as Islam not islamicism .
Take the title of this topicCanadian Journalist Attacked by Muslims Canadian journalist attacked by fundamentalist Islamic fruitcakes reads very differently , offensive maybe but specificly offensive .
And it fits better with Ser Clegs line.......

the reasoning behind any act of such deserves to be mentioned

[Goofball]

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[Fragony]

You claim muslims are intolerant, but what are you then? I don't think Muslims would fare well in a society run by you... maybe sent of to some nice vacation camps? Alot of this is reminiscent of what people said of Jews in the middle ages, they thought they kidnapped and sacrificed children.

Muslims don't fare well anywhere, say what you want but they have a hard time accepting non-islamic vallues. I don't blame them with all these multiculturalists giving them the feeling that they are special, giving them what they want even before they know they realise that they demand it, idiots. Also in Norway, you guys must be doing something very very wrong there, just like they are doing something very very wrong in Sweden, Belgium, France, England, and my very own Dutchiestan, or everywhere, and now guess what Canada! Blame Canada! How could you fail them like that. Maybe there is, well, something wrong with Islam or at least with it's followers? Now I am consistantly growing milder, or at least trying really hard, but out of all major religions which one would you personally consider the most violent?

ps, godwin award is yours.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

I think the difference with Islam is that it's very explicit. A lot of what can be inferred from the Bible/Torah is spelled out in the Koran.

So if you want to find a verse telling you to smite the infidel you can. Having said that there's plenty of justification for smiting in the Old Testemant, and some places of the new. Jesus did apparently blast a fig tree just for not being in season.

Having said that, Islam has become the way it is partly because it has been seperated off and appeased, though the Sikhs did take one or two liberties over here. Most notably an open air cremation.

The other problem is that the centre of Islam, in the Middle East, has become for hard line over the last hundred years as the other major religions have mellowed.

[Fragony]

Well I think the problem with Islam is what we make of it. Islamic culture is in many things vastly different from ours, and it belongs in another time and most of all in another place, and we see our inability to give it a place here in the west as some collective faillure of our own. We say we respect it, but we really think it's all bull and that they will all gladly welcome the great enlightment, but they don't, they actually believe all that, and a good nose needs only half a fart. Too much respect for what is different, just because it is different. Just keep a respectable distance, and we will all be just fine.

edit: ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh another fine example of major overdhimmification, and the rigid self-enforced respect for those that don't have it, the tsunami of cultural undertanding to wash out just a tiny little wee fire; a school in Amsterdam no longer teaches about farms because the little rascalls go a little bit jihad because they grow pigs there. I say more commisions, bring in the socioloco's to map out this truly fascinating development.

[Randarkmaan]

edit: ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh another fine example of major overdhimmification, and the rigid self-enforced respect for those that don't have it, the tsunami of cultural undertanding to wash out just a tiny little wee fire; a school in Amsterdam no longer teaches about farms because the little rascalls go a little bit jihad because they grow pigs there. I say more commisions, bring in the socioloco's to map out this truly fascinating development.

Really? What I often wonder when I hear about stuff like this is, do they really go a little bit jihad or are people just afraid they'll go a little bit jihad without asking because then they might go jihad?

I have to agree with you on some points actually, especially about the belief that they will instantly see the value of a society with values different than their own. Anyway this is a problem only time can solve, not special weeks in schools with incredibly long names or timidity in history teaching.

[Fragony]

Really? What I often wonder when I hear about stuff like this is, do they really go a little bit jihad or are people just afraid they'll go a little bit jihad without asking because then they might go jihad?

Exactly that, and then these multiculturalists dare say that it is me that is afraid.

[Tribesman]

a school in Amsterdam no longer teaches about farms because the little rascalls go a little bit jihad because they grow pigs there.

That wouldn't by any chance translate as ....a school canceled its agricultural field study trip to a pig farm .....would it .

[Leet Eriksson]

WHATS THIS, I AM AGREEING WITH FRAGONY AAAAAAAAAH

Well I think the problem with Islam is what we make of it. Islamic culture is in many things vastly different from ours, and it belongs in another time and most of all in another place, and we see our inability to give it a place here in the west as some collective faillure of our own. We say we respect it, but we really think it's all bull and that they will all gladly welcome the great enlightment, but they don't, they actually believe all that, and a good nose needs only half a fart. Too much respect for what is different, just because it is different. Just keep a respectable distance, and we will all be just fine.

But i disagree on one point:

Muslims don't fare well anywhere

They actually are faring well, provided they keep their heads low and not whine constantly, for instance the US and Latin America there are many immigrants who are successful and educated, its not the case with europe where most of them are uneducated, which spells a whole load of problems.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

Aha, so now we cut to the quic.

Education. We have problems with Afro-Carribeans shooting each other in London at the moment, they also lack a decent education.

So who's fault is this, the parents, the state or the individual?

[Randarkmaan]

They actually are faring well, provided they keep their heads low and not whine constantly, for instance the US and Latin America there are many immigrants who are successful and educated, its not the case with europe where most of them are uneducated, which spells a whole load of problems.

I remember reading about that, that Arab Americans (Muslims or Christians) usually have a higher income than the american average.

So who's fault is this, the parents, the state or the individual?

Well... Either one of those, two of those or all of those! That's the great thing with people, they're usually so different its illogical!

[Fragony]

WHATS THIS, I AM AGREEING WITH FRAGONY

Just breathe, or don't

That wouldn't by any chance translate as ....a school canceled its agricultural field study trip to a pig farm .....would it .

No Tribes, I guess it doesn't

[Xiahou]

After all Banquo, it is not hypocrisy or an attempt to turn universities into Jewish institutions when colleges have Kosher food specially prepared for their Jewish students, but when a foot washing thingy is announced, it certainly is hypocrisy and an attempt to turn colleges into an Islamic institution.

You know, Hillel is a private student organization right? They were the one's preparing the food. The college was allowing students to transfer some of their mealplan (which the students have to purchase and pay for) to Hillel for them to buy kosher food- prepared at Hillel.

I wanted to point that out at the time, but never got back to it. Thanks for giving me the second chance.

[Tribesman]

No Tribes, I guess it doesn't

So Frag , you will undoubtably be able to provide proof that a school doesn't teach about farms because pigs are a type of farm animal , until then I will go on the basis of your past history of accuracy and say it is just some bollox that you made up .

[Louis VI the Fat]

Sorry Tribes, I like you and I'm afraid this might come off as me stalking you in every Islam thread there is around, but you and I simply don't agree about the intensity of hostility of Muslim immigrant circles towards their host nations and the urgency of solving the promblems this causes.

Netherlands National News Agency reports:

AMSTERDAM, 27/04/07 - A school in Amsterdam has halted lessons on rural life because the Islamic children refused to talk about pigs. Reporting this, Alderman Lodewijk Asscher said he wants to take "tough measures." Subsidies for all kinds of dubious groups must stop and parents of unruly children penalised financially.

Asscher told newspaper De Volkskrant: "A primary school in Amsterdam-Noord has decided no longer to teach about living on a farm. Various pupils began to demolish the classroom when the pig came up for discussion. Apparently it has gone that far. These children, 9, 10 years old, have not been given even the most elementary rules at home about why they must go to school."

Asscher, who is also the Labour (PvdA) leader in Amsterdam, wants to subject the parents to an 'upbringing requirement,' enforced with negative financial spurs. He is thinking of cuts in the children's allowance or lower welfare payments. In the Lower House, Youth and Family Minister Rouvoet recently rejected a plea for this from Party for Freedom (PVV).

Asscher also wants to prune the forest of subsidies for all kinds of foundations and organisations that say they work for multicultural goals. They receive 160 million euros annually from Amsterdam. Asscher wants to work out for each of these organisations in the "welfare industry" whether they do useful work and if not, halt the subsidy.

Asscher gave an example of abuse: "A Moroccan man took 50 youths off the streets, who were really an enormous nuisance. Now they collect wheelchairs for the handicapped in Surinam, Morocco and Turkey. Suddenly, a welfare body was set up alongside him, which is now trying to take the boys over from him, because they would then receive subsidies of 4,000 to 6,000 euros per kid. They are too timid to take these lads of the street themselves and now want them in their card-index because of the subsidy. Our Moroccan volunteer does not want to do it any more. I understand him."

Asscher is also shocked by the powerlessness of welfare bodies who try to talk criminal youngsters back onto the right track. In Slotervaart district, a mother of 10 children, of whom half have a criminal record, is guided by 35 different social workers, the alderman discovered. They have little or no idea of what each other is doing, according to Asscher.

And that is the Labour candidate speaking.

[Tribesman]

Thanks Louis .Simple question , why were the kids not simply removed from the class ?

[Louis VI the Fat]

why were the kids not simply removed from the class ?

Because half the youths in all big Northwest European cities are Muslim. And you can not dismiss half your class every time
either of the following subjects comes up: sex, gays, women, Jews, Israel, WWII, pigs, religion, evolutionism, colonialism, national history, English, French, physical education.
It is rather difficult to teach biology, history, geography, physical education and languages in a multi-cultural classroom.

The solution: for the parents, it's moving to a white area so your own children can go to a decent school where there's none of this rubbish. For the schools in the suburbs having to teach those left behind, the solution is giving up all pretence of educating pupils and focusing on getting pupils through school without a criminal record or getting gang-raped.

And for society as a whole, the solution to this segregation is a good car insurance.

[Tribesman]

you can not dismiss half your class every time

You don't have to .......
Various pupils began to demolish the classroom ....you prosecute the little buggers and throw them out of the school .