historical quotes on loading screens

[zzrowgraff]

Hello,

I have seen quotes from the Cycles of Don, Telam, and Dunnar on EB loading screens. I've looked unsuccessfully for English (or any other for that matter) translations, and come up empty. If anyone knows where to obtain English translations for these texts, please let me know.

Thanks,

Zzrow Graff

[Elthore]

I think they got those from some guy on the forums called Ranika. If I recall correctly, he said it they were still unpublished findings of some such.

[oudysseos]

There have been some serious doubts expressed as to their authenticity. I don't think it's inappropriate to ask the EB team to provide some verification of the sources for these quotes, particularly when there must be hundreds of period quotes about which there is no question.

[Pharnakes]

Yes, but not many from the celts, I wouldn't have thought.

And who is casting the doubt?

[Bootsiuv]

I remember a huge hullabaloo about this a few months ago.

The problem is that it would be very very hard for an entire 'cycle' to go unnoticed for so long, as cycles consist of an enormous amount of work spanning centuries of time.

I figured they were going to remove them for 1.0, simply because, being unpublished works, there is no way for the EB team to prove they existed.

That being said, they take historical accuracy fairly seriously, so I don't think they would add them willy-nilly.

It's a sensitive subject IIRC, and I don't mean any offense to the team members by this post. I have 100% faith that if they included it, there is a good reason. Otherwise, they would have axed them, like they've done for so many other things which were proven false after a time.

Bootsiuv

[Horst Nordfink]

Nice use of the word hullabaloo!

[Redmeth]

I think they got those from some guy on the forums called Ranika. If I recall correctly, he said it they were still unpublished findings of some such.

Ranika was an esteemed EB member and not "some guy". I think you didn't intend it to sound that way but this needed clearing up

He had an impressive knowledge of the Celts and all the "doubt" cast was cast by someone who was IMHO an initiate and not an expert with the access Ranika had.

To imply that those quotes were dreamed or made up is an affront to all of our work and please refrain from such opinions. (This is not aimed at anyone just saying...)

[Intranetusa]

Why is Sun Tzu and Confucious in there? They were 100-200 years before EB's time period and were 2000+ miles to the east of EB's Baktrian borders...

:D I think they're cool btw

[Tellos Athenaios]

You guys will/may know Ranika from the Bartix thread; and will have seen his work in the form of the Galatians and many, many Celtic features to EB.

Strategist Sun and Confucius were there in RTW Vanilla. EB seems to have simply added their own quotes on top and replaced Vanilla instances with original language or different translations often. Still there are some things directly from Vanilla in EB.

[Lusitani]

Ranika was ...

Was?....Pitty i really enjoyed his posts and i have noticed his absence...oh well.

[oudysseos]

No aspersions cast on Ranika, but it is not an insult to a scholar to ask him or her to verify something by showing some evidence or proof. The guy from the posts didn't sound like a tyro to me and his questions were never really answered. They still haven't been. Where do these Cycles come from? If you can't support it, why include it? It'd be an easy enough matter to clear up.

[Long lost Caesar]

well the idea that ranika made these up is stupid for two reasons: 1-seems that hes a highly respected, legit historian, he wouldnt just make them up. 2-if he DID make them up, damn that mans like a buddha!

[lobf]

So I was curious about the quotes of the Cycles of Don/Telam so i decided to look up your info on them. I found this topic and a few gems

Ranika was an esteemed EB member and not "some guy". I think you didn't intend it to sound that way but this needed clearing up

He had an impressive knowledge of the Celts and all the "doubt" cast was cast by someone who was IMHO an initiate and not an expert with the access Ranika had.

To imply that those quotes were dreamed or made up is an affront to all of our work and please refrain from such opinions. (This is not aimed at anyone just saying...)

hey, I know Ranika is very well informed on the celts, his posts were very interesting to read and contained a wealth of knowledge. However, it is very unacademic to be using non peer-reviewed or unpublished sources.

I do think that most people, including myself, dont really care about that though and they're just looking for something interesting to read!

So is there absolutely nothing info regarding these sources???

It seems that the validity of those quotes is based on this guy's word? I'm sure he was a great historian and did a lot of work for the game, but it seems irresponsible to one the one hand claim historical accuracy and then turn around and put unpublished, unreviewed work in your game.

I mean, the quotes seem so suspicious. The writing style is anachronistic and stereotypical. I don't have the quotes here so I can't point out specifics. It just seems so fishy!

Not to mention the fact that this guy hasn't been seen around here for a while, so even his golden reputation is hardly at stake. I wasn't around, but isn't he kind of a joker too?

There just seems to be a whole lot of reason not to let this stuff in the mod, and zero reason, except for trust, to include it. I don't mean to make a mountain out of a mole hill here, but I'm a historian, my father is a historian, and I love scholarly history. That's why I play EB. Not to read shit that would be cool if it was real. I want proof.

So don't take this as an attack, cuz I fully expect you to chew me out for this. I'm just pointing out that you guys have a historical inconsistency in your historical accuracy mod.

Edit- Besides, you guys don't think a huge trove of Celtic of Germanic literature from that era would be an absolutely groundbreaking, newsworthy event? Like, maybe a single news report on the entire internet about it?

[blacksnail]

A word of warning, this is very likely going to be interpreted as hornet-nest poking.

[lobf]

It needs to be resolved.

[Maxov]

I suspect that a translation error, or just a simple typing mistake has been made. I think Telam should be Elam. Elam was an ancient civilisation around southwest Iran. It existed for several millenia, but it was long gone at the time Rome: Total war begins. The Elamais were their successors, and they did live to see Rome: Total War. Very little is know about the Elamais, as they spent most of their days under Parthian, and later Sassanid rule.

[pezhetairoi]

Uh.... where did this come from? Do you even know what you're talking about? o.O Telam and Elam are NOT related in any way, and I doubt such an important typo would be committed by Ranika, who is to the Celts what the Persian Cataphract is to the Parthians.

These are Celts we're talking about, and I don't think any translation error could involve a Celtic name. What a bad start to the forums...

[The Persian Cataphract]

I suspect that a translation error, or just a simple typing mistake has been made. I think Telam should be Elam. Elam was an ancient civilisation around southwest Iran. It existed for several millenia, but it was long gone at the time Rome: Total war begins. The Elamais were their successors, and they did live to see Rome: Total War. Very little is know about the Elamais, as they spent most of their days under Parthian, and later Sassanid rule.

...Instant headache. Admirable effort, but you are off the mark. Elamite civilization, as weird as it may sound, is actually more securely documented than you'd expect at first, and we have a rather confident view on how the Elamite language is structured, much due to the Persepolis Elamite tablets (Often mentioned in context with the so-called "Fortification tablets"). There are no issues with the Ûvjâ/Hallatamti, but the term "Elymaean" may cause a ruckus, because it designates both the natives of the Susian district, but designates a tribe in Europe proper (Can't remember the specifics for the moment) as well.

Also Elamite does not necessarily equate to Elymaean; The first mention of the "Elymaei" is actually in Nearchus' log; So in difference with the Elamites, who were neither Semitic, nor necessarily Indo-European (Interestingly, they are referred to as Elamo-Dravidian), the Iranian-speaking Elymaeans hovered towards an "Aryan" identity, even though they worshipped the traditional Semitic pantheon. Furthermore, Khûzestân is one of the few provinces in Iran with such an archaeological wealth of both Parthian and Sassanian periods, not least the Parthian period, where most coins of the client Kamnaskirid dynasty have been found.

[Maxov]

And your explanation for the fact that nobody out of EB ever heard of Telam is "It is based on new unpublished discoveries"? When are these going to be published then? It is logical you get fuss like this when you put quotations in your game, when the people you quote don't seem te have existed.

[pezhetairoi]

And your explanation for the fact that nobody out of EB ever heard of Telam is "It is based on new unpublished discoveries"? When are these going to be published then? It is logical you get fuss like this when you put quotations in your game, when the people you quote don't seem te have existed.

Simply,that someone has access to them when others don't. It's a common thing in knowledge to have 'new unpublished discoveries' you know. Do you have access to classified government documents? Does your not having access to them mean that when someone writes a book about them after they are declassified, that book must be concluded to be talking about things that don't seem to have existed?

And besides, Ranika's reputation and word here is as solid as steel. His word on the Celtic factions has ever been taken as the word because of their academic precision, their well-substantiated arguments, and the fact that he has access to Celtic information that most people don't either because he has the right connections or is in the right circles, or because he happens to have privileges to access them in his own right. That he even knows about them is already testimony enough. We may take his word on trust. Either that, or call doubt on Ranika and name him liar.

For everyone's info, a short thread from a long time ago on the Cycles, with a final word by Khelvan, Patron God of EB himself.

https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?t=62922