Guns are too strong or not?

[Kocmoc]

Alright, I saw some treads flying around lately, where people pointed out that guns are too strong, have not enough FF (which is wrong) or should get changed. Id like to know how you think about guns in general.

It would be great, if you could post, why you think whatever you think. Thanks in advance.


Here is a replay,
https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/images/kocmoc/FF1.replay

which shows perfectly how "good" the Friendly Fire is. Its done with my 2 PC´s, so you can be sure, thats perfect! ;)
It will clearly show you, that the FF is higher than the casualties of the enemy unit.

I also want to point out the "gun punching" vid I made, which give you some impression how guns can work.



Koc

[Nowake]

Hey,

From a new MP player's perspective, I must write that I do find them a bit off in terms of moral, so I went for
Yes. The Moral Shock is too much.
I get the number of kills as correct, but when they retreat behind their melee infantry and continue to give such a moral penalty, it is a bit meh. I believe the unit covering them and getting all the friendly fire should have an even higher penalty to moral to be honest.

Also, while the kill per Salvo is all right, perhaps their Reload time should be increased a bit more? They may seem slow to Reload now, but I think they were even slower in reality and certain special abilities really bring them a bit over the top (yes, I am aware the previous Inspire was even more ridiculous than Rapid Fire ever will).

[AMP]

Hard to say really...

Most that complain about them go about fighting them all wrong or atleast in the games that I have played anyway. Also no one is posting replays against skilled players showing how they are OP or pointing out certain points in replays showing how they are OP. They just say this or that...

It would help determine how much of a morale penalty units should receive if it showed in stats the number of the units current morale, but it doesn't constantly update. I would say however it would make sense that a unit getting shot in the back by friendly fire should suffer a higher morale penalty than a unit getting shot in the front by enemy gun fire.

If you watch the tracers they aren't going through any friendly soldiers that I can see, that any soldier hit by a bullet dies.

The thing that may seem broken is how soldiers in a unit can target an enemy soldier behind the lines when it's vision to the enemy soldier is blocked, but I don't think the AI can read that and would probably be hard to code to read such a thing I don't know. If they could fix it so a soldier can't target an enemy soldier without vision that would make a world of difference or atleast be a big step in the right direction.

[Zarobien]

Now I'm guilty of using 1-2 of these as a tide turner for win. Mostly by running them on the side or even to the backside of the enemy; then fire once for the moral shock. So I voted "Yes, the moral shock is too much." The kills they do seem to be inline for me.

[AMP]

What's the morale shock -morale on units, do we have exact numbers? Aren't high tier units resistant to morale shocks anyway? If a gun shoots in the side or back of enemy they should get a nice minus on morale, that's how it was back in STW days and chain routs were easier back then and no one complained about it, only those new to the game.

[Swoosh So]

My god now people are complaining units get morale shocks when shot in their backside :O

[AMP]

It sure keeps it entertaining having always a "next" thing to complain about. It's very interesting to see what people consider OP in this game and not fair, so keep it coming. Some I may agree with if they provide good evidence to back up what they say, but that hardly happens.

[Nowake]

I either did not understand your quip or you misunderstood our posts Swoosh. Every post here stated precisely that it is abnormal for your own units to not receive a moral penalty when your muskets are behind them and tearing through the enemy infantry you have engaged. So who is complaining exactly?

Indeed, we state that penalty should be higher than that of the enemy troops, after all, no one getting shot in the arse would wave it off as a "Nevermind lads, I know you mean well!"

[Sp00n]

Its seems that most matches now are developing into large missile encounters with most players taking a combined 6-8 missiles, you only have to look at the Tosa Cup matches, I think missiles in general are overpowered personally I don't think its just down to guns, upgraded bows are also pretty sick.

[Kocmoc]

Its seems that most matches now are developing into large missile encounters with most players taking a combined 6-8 missiles, you only have to look at the Tosa Cup matches, I think missiles in general are overpowered personally I don't think its just down to guns, upgraded bows are also pretty sick.

Yes, bows are also pretty powerful, Imo the bows are even more of a problem, than the guns. We need the guns to stop the rush, we dont need bows for that!

[UglyJun]

What's the morale shock -morale on units, do we have exact numbers? Aren't high tier units resistant to morale shocks anyway? If a gun shoots in the side or back of enemy they should get a nice minus on morale, that's how it was back in STW days and chain routs were easier back then and no one complained about it, only those new to the game.

well we had major problems with the chain rout in STW Amp :) but it was addressed and rebalanced !!! so far i must say from my limited mp experience that i don't see any unit that's OP :)

[AMP]

well we had major problems with the chain rout in STW Amp :) but it was addressed and rebalanced !!! so far i must say from my limited mp experience that i don't see any unit that's OP :)

no comment Jun just no comment :)

[AggonyKing]

Yes, bows are also pretty powerful, Imo the bows are even more of a problem, than the guns. We need the guns to stop the rush, we dont need bows for that!

when you can wield 200 range monks vs 100 range guns (and at 125range they hardly kill anything) I would say worry bout bows instead :D

I love shooting the guns from far far away :)

[Kocmoc]

when you can wield 200 range monks vs 100 range guns (and at 125range they hardly kill anything) I would say worry bout bows instead :D

I love shooting the guns from far far away :)

Especially as your bows really kill quick!

[AggonyKing]

Especially as your bows really kill quick!

ya i'm pretty sure if we do test of reload and shooting speed bows will come out on top (as they should)

even though guns have the most shock when fired, bows have a way faster kill rate. As soon as guns close in if you focus your bows on those guns its game over for the guns.

[HighFistRW]

Hi All,
its been awhile since i have posted anywhere :) but i have returned to playing S2 after several years break and i dont see a problem with guns atm, i dont look at stats to much and would call myself a moderate player who plays for fun or running away mostly lol..... i have found that if you can take out the guns early with bows then it usually levels out as most peeps i come acroos filed 3 bows 2-3 guns rest cav & inf. i do miss the old fashioned chain routes of the stw days and often think good god how is that unit that is surrounded not running away but have learnt that vets etc have more stay puff and am coming to terms with new dynamics... at present i think that some players who like me on my return are a little taken aback that the dynamics have changed.. hope that makes sense all.

oh and hello again to all that remeber me

[UglyJun]

welcome back UglyFist nice u made it back :)

[Cu'Roi]

not really sure that it matters. there will always be things that work better than others in TW. adaptable players will simply switch to what works best. i think it is good when more units have worthwhile uses, and i think the patch improved that. wherever things are at i want them to stay there, it gets confusing to learn so many different styles.

[Paolai]

In STW musks were a lot stronger and they were the most important units for the shoot out. The way players used them was different because gun's mechanism was different (a lot better imho).

[UglyJun]

hey Paolai been a while :)
i remember massive army's with mainly guns and a few units to hold the flanks, because anything that charged at u frontal was toast :_)

[Kocmoc]

I started this tread, to get some general feedback. We can see tons of treads at the com, but mostly its from pretty new player. So this help me a lot to actual understand how "we" feel about it. Thanks for that!

[ELITEofWARMANGINGERYBREADMEN88]

I think the game is better then what is was before, granted though I don't waste my time looking over "if this unit has this extact stat...." so I don't know if there are real major stat issues.

[sabresandiego]

Guns are too strong IMO. They could use some tuning. I think the problem lies mainly in their cost effectiveness. For Under 700 koku you can get a unit which can wipe out half an army, heros, generals, and more.

[chrisj]

But you can kill this unit with a light cav (granted a good player won't let you), its price is fair considering a single mistake and you've spent 700 credits on nothing.

[Zarobien]

What's the morale shock -morale on units, do we have exact numbers? Aren't high tier units resistant to morale shocks anyway? If a gun shoots in the side or back of enemy they should get a nice minus on morale, that's how it was back in STW days and chain routs were easier back then and no one complained about it, only those new to the game.

Kantana Samurai atleast has the "resistant to morale shocks" trait. But I have charged them from front with yari samurai too and got trought (alltought eaten one volley). So I would say the shock is just a short time and it cant be more than -5. I would say even less than that but more than -2. I think my light cav ate 3 volleys; one direct and two sideways trought opponent archers. It was the 3rd that got it routing but the 2 other light cavs stayed there for for one more volley. I think they have base morale of 8. So one volley shock would be -3? (Hard to say because theres lots of stuff going on there.)

[Orda Khan]

Its seems that most matches now are developing into large missile encounters with most players taking a combined 6-8 missiles, you only have to look at the Tosa Cup matches, I think missiles in general are overpowered personally I don't think its just down to guns, upgraded bows are also pretty sick.

Hello Sp00n,
I have to agree mate. I've looked at the replays and it seems a good supply of muskets and bows will practically wipe out advancing units before they make contact, or if they do (highly depleted) they waver/route in an instant.
Whatever the problem: range, accuracy, lethality, reload, morale shock, (probably all) range units are proving to be too important.

[Cu'Roi]

i think it's clear that guns are definitely not underpowered. they are also a unit u must take every game, other types are not so necessary in so many situations as guns are. but if they are overpowered? it's really hard to say. rushing is possible in this game but conditions must be right. in fact 2 different types of rush can work in this game. to me this is good. if you did reduce some of the stats for matchlocks, it would be best to do it only very slightly, otherwise rushers will have too easy of a time, imo.

i have talked about this before, and it's sort of off topic so i wont go into detail here, but in the absence of gametypes, it's hard to balance the game. this game doesn't need 20 different game types like the fantasy game Myth had, but 2-3 game types other than just last man alive would benefit the game, and open up more roles for more units if done tastefully and properly tested.

[Tempiic]

Ever since the first TW, balance always suffered from the upgrade system. Now we're playing with vets, in which we have more control about how and what we upgrade. I cannot say I am surprised. It does not matter either when we get our guns or bows balanced again, then something else will became OP thanks to veterancy&upgrades. Honestly, it is not really unvetted guns&bows that cause this issue.

[Paolai]

Hello Sp00n,
I have to agree mate. I've looked at the replays and it seems a good supply of muskets and bows will practically wipe out advancing units before they make contact, or if they do (highly depleted) they waver/route in an instant.

Do not advance too early then. Work with your shooters, do the job on the side you think it is better to attack. Surely you have to have strong shooters aswell.
An army with 4/5 strong and upgraded shooters can beat an army of 8/9 "weak" shooters maybe also more. And then the H2H it is quite easy.

[Sp00n]

Do not advance too early then. Work with your shooters, do the job on the side you think it is better to attack. Surely you have to have strong shooters aswell.
An army with 4/5 strong and upgraded shooters can beat an army of 8/9 "weak" shooters maybe also more. And then the H2H it is quite easy.

My army isnt the issue, I have plenty of upgraded Bow Monks and all types of Guns, I'm just saying they are all overpowered, its a melee era being dominated by missiles.