What are your cheapest core units to defeat Rome?

[zenisar]

Let's say you set out on a campaign (difficulty H/H) aiming to obliterate Roman Republic and ultimately conquer the city of Rome. You pick your favourite faction. You tinker with your generals little bit. You give Rome a few decades time to fully develop and get some reforms. Then you start your ultimate campaign of all campaigns. You will face full stack after full stack army built around principes, pedites extraordinarii or legionary cohorts.

What are the cheapest units you feel confident to use as core of your armies in order to consistently defeat Roman armies you will face? Why?

[QuintusSertorius]

Can't go wrong with a lot of the widely-available Greek roster for your infantry (who are both regionals and mercenaries): Classical Hoplites and Thureophoroi. Add in some mercenary/levy phalanxes to hold the centre, and that's a cheap, yet sturdy, battle line. Honourable mention to Keltohellenikoi, who are equivalent to Thureophoroi. For skirmishing Peltastai and Kretan Archers, again cheap, common and effective. For that all important ranged anti-armour role, Iaosatae. Especially good for assassinating Roman FMs before the clash, though make sure you keep them well away from any fighting.

For cavalry, Curepos/Leuce Epos are the best mediums around (and again both cheap and mercenary). Javelins for harassment, excellent stamina, lances to close when you've worn the enemy down. You can have three of them for every two elites you might have bought and they're much more useful. If you can't get them, Thracian Light Cavalry isn't bad either, again it's the AP weapons that make all the difference.

[jackfruitguy69]

all what surena had at the battle of carrhae

[moonburn]

go with germn baseball bats they are cheap and effective

[kdrakak]

Carthage has all you need and you don't even have to think about cavalry too much. And you can throw in a few elites whose upkeep won't break your economy since they won't be coming to Rome from very far. Roman infantry is cheap and well armored. The best and surest way to deal is the typical frontal infantry engagement coupled with a cavalry charge to the flank or rear. Any other scheme takes too much effort and micromanagement. The Carthaginian roster's core mix is the obvious solution.

[QuintusSertorius]

Carthage has all you need and you don't even have to think about cavalry too much. And you can throw in a few elites whose upkeep won't break your economy since they won't be coming to Rome from very far. Roman infantry is cheap and well armored. The best and surest way to deal is the typical frontal infantry engagement coupled with a cavalry charge to the flank or rear. Any other scheme takes too much effort and micromanagement. The Carthaginian roster's core mix is the obvious solution.

Funny you mention Qart-Hadast, some of their core roster are imitations of the same Greek units I mentioned upthread, meaning you can mix and match/replace with mercenaries as you go. Hanatim Libim (Libyan Spearmen) are Thureophoroi/Keltohellenikoi and Dorkim Libi-Ponnim (Liby-Phoenician Infantry) are Classical Hoplitai. As an aside, Hanatim Libim Kdedim (Libyan Heavy Spearmen) are Thorakitai.

Balaeric Slingers are even better than Iaosatae.

[Bodeni]

Siluri skirmishers and Cwmyr. Supported by Belgian cavalry of course...

[zenisar]

First, I played some campaigns with diadochi (AS, Makedonia). When facing Romans on battlefield, it happened several times that they massed all their Principes infantry in the centre. After a while of pushing the mass on my solid line of pikemen, even the core Pezhetairoi lost numbers in the few criticial center units that broked and fled. My cavalry flanking maneuvres were then not the usual winning strike any more but rather securing just some kind of a draw ...

Later on in my Arverni campaign, I used Bataroas (Northern Gallic Swordsmen) as the core, complemented with a unit of Solduros, a unit of Gaesatae, plus some light cavalry. That usually worked fine, almost never losing battles. The FM reached Italy from the north on his avenger trip via the Alps. Later on, I built second army around slightly cheaper Botroas (Southern Gallic Swordsmen) in order to make logistics easier and took off on the route from Massilia to Italy. To my surprise, I was defeated on multiple occassions, and forced to rebuild this army again and again.

Then I started to wonder what units will do just fine and what units will not ... curious about your experience?

[QuintusSertorius]

First, I played some campaigns with diadochi (AS, Makedonia). When facing Romans on battlefield, it happened several times that they massed all their Principes infantry in the centre. After a while of pushing the mass on my solid line of pikemen, even the core Pezhetairoi lost numbers in the few criticial center units that broked and fled. My cavalry flanking maneuvres were then not the usual winning strike any more but rather securing just some kind of a draw ...

A significant part of the problem is that you're playing on Hard battle difficulty; the bonuses given to the AI virtually negate the problems they should be having going at a phalanx from the front.

Otherwise I'd say don't rely solely on your cavalry to flank, Thureophoroi/Thorakitai are much more mobile than your phalanxes, and equal to the task of matching Romans in melee.

Later on in my Arverni campaign, I used Bataroas (Northern Gallic Swordsmen) as the core, complemented with a unit of Solduros, a unit of Gaesatae, plus some light cavalry. That usually worked fine, almost never losing battles. The FM reached Italy from the north on his avenger trip via the Alps. Later on, I built second army around slightly cheaper Botroas (Southern Gallic Swordsmen) in order to make logistics easier and took off on the route from Massilia to Italy. To my surprise, I was defeated on multiple occassions, and forced to rebuild this army again and again.

Then I started to wonder what units will do just fine and what units will not ... curious about your experience?

The standard Celtic units don't have armour, which means they can't survive prolonged melee with well-armoured Romans. The only common, non-elite Celtic unit that fits the bill are Keltohellenikoi who are great in numbers for holding the centre. Certainly better suited than Botroas/Bataroas or Gaeroas/Gaelaiche. Otherwise you're into elites like Solduros or Neitos.

[moonburn]

the northern gaul swordman is already elite as it is they are a kind of carnutes and i do love them greatly even tough they tend to drive me to the red more often then not

[QuintusSertorius]

the northern gaul swordman is already elite as it is they are a kind of carnutes and i do love them greatly even tough they tend to drive me to the red more often then not

Bataroas have even less armour than Camillian Hastati, so even if you consider them "elite", they won't last in prolonged contact with even the lightest Roman line troops. Even the Golberi Curoas aren't equally armoured, though they just top out the Camillian Hastati in total defense.

[Bodeni]

Bataroas have even less armour than Camillian Hastati, so even if you consider them "elite", they won't last in prolonged contact with even the lightest Roman line troops. Even the Golberi Curoas aren't equally armoured, though they just top out the Camillian Hastati in total defense.

But the charge bonuses! The lethality score! Slam a roman formation with these bad boys and watch them flee. Keltoi victories have to come quick or they won't come at all. Trick is to rout the romans as quickly as possible, Brihentin make good FM killers, Gaeroas and Gailache are best used to draw enemies into traps or as light reserves, Gallic elites are too pricey to use against anything but enemy elites. But Bataroas should be thrown into the enemy as soon as possible.
Keltoi don't do hammer and anvil, they use chisel and hammer instead.

[QuintusSertorius]

But the charge bonuses! The lethality score! Slam a roman formation with these bad boys and watch them flee. Keltoi victories have to come quick or they won't come at all. Trick is to rout the romans as quickly as possible, Brihentin make good FM killers, Gaeroas and Gailache are best used to draw enemies into traps or as light reserves, Gallic elites are too pricey to use against anything but enemy elites. But Bataroas should be thrown into the enemy as soon as possible.
Keltoi don't do hammer and anvil, they use chisel and hammer instead.

You don't get quick routs on Hard battle difficulty, there's a coded bonus to both defense and morale (and Romans already have high morale). So unless you're fighting a stack led by a captain, they'll be sticking around.

[Ca Putt]

When dealing with Romani there are imho just two vertitable courses of action:

Carrhae - Romani lack cavalry and don't have as many spearmen as most factions, so Heavy cavalry(or any lancer, cuepos, Illyrioi hippeis....) ideally supported by horsearchers.

Teutoburg forest - Romani sport large numbers of heavily armoured units but don't have a lot of archers, so getting lots of "weak" armour piercing units with nor armour can be rather usefull.

When in doubt add slingers and levy hoplites/Phalangites, but that's "Win EB 101".

[Empire*Of*Media]

all what surena had at the battle of carrhae

YeS ExactlY !!

all those Veteran Armies they could not cross Mesopotamia! because Parthians were tactican & powerful!

and they could not cross Syria! because Sassanids were highly Veteran and Advanced Equal to rome and even better!

[kdrakak]

Funny you mention Qart-Hadast, some of their core roster are imitations of the same Greek units I mentioned upthread, meaning you can mix and match/replace with mercenaries as you go. Hanatim Libim (Libyan Spearmen) are Thureophoroi/Keltohellenikoi and Dorkim Libi-Ponnim (Liby-Phoenician Infantry) are Classical Hoplitai. As an aside, Hanatim Libim Kdedim (Libyan Heavy Spearmen) are Thorakitai.

Balaeric Slingers are even better than Iaosatae.

It's the cavalry that makes the difference. I love the Hellenic rosters too, but cheap core units to defeat the Romans are to be found more readily in Carthage. Besides... Xanthippos may join the fight so you get the best of both worlds! :)

[QuintusSertorius]

It's the cavalry that makes the difference. I love the Hellenic rosters too, but cheap core units to defeat the Romans are to be found more readily in Carthage. Besides... Xanthippos may join the fight so you get the best of both worlds! :)

True, they do have a much better cavalry choice than any of the Greek factions. One thing they do miss are Peltastai, who are extremely useful and cheap, but they're a mercenary unit widely available, so not a big deal.

[moonburn]

YeS ExactlY !!

all those Veteran Armies they could not cross Mesopotamia! because Parthians were tactican & powerful!

and they could not cross Syria! because Sassanids were highly Veteran and Advanced Equal to rome and even better!

thats why the romans burned the persian capital on 2 ocasions

crassus made a mistake when he trusted his scouts and was missinformed about the kind of catrphact he would be facing since he assumed he would be facing armenian cathraphacts wich weren´t as armoured or disciplined as the parthians

also the parthians inovated with their camel caravan suply train or they would be out of arrows and forced to face the romans in melee before they where in disaray

[zenisar]

After fighting battles with hellenistic phalanx for some time, slow and cumbersome heavy tool for steamrolling anything - if you can catch it - I switched to celtic more flexible style. Though at first, I used those units more like any regular swordsman until I discovered their charge. For those less patient generals among us - charge is the answer! Enemies tremble in fear when they see us. And where the fighting is the thickiest - Gaesatae is the answer!

Anyway, speaking about units available to celtic factions, I was actually impressed by Massilian Hoplites - they can stand to Roman legions in normal circumstances. On the other hand, the other naked unit Uiruduisios was rather dissapointment, they broked and fled even when facing some regular celtic units. But I never actually tried Celtic Axemen - does the armor piercing ability make a difference against against Romans? And Helvetii Phalanx, how do they fare?

[athanaric]

On the other hand, the other naked unit Uiruduisios was rather dissapointment, they broked and fled even when facing some regular celtic units.

They're a support unit, never use them as frontline troops. They should be standing behind your main line, lobbing javelins. They're also great for flanking enemy units. Basically like chariots, but easier to use.

But I never actually tried Celtic Axemen - does the armor piercing ability make a difference against against Romans?

Definitely. On top of being strong against armour, Celtic Axemen are one of the most versatile units in the game.

And Helvetii Phalanx, how do they fare?

Unsurprisingly well. Both the Helveti phalanx and the "Alpine" phalanx spearmen are very useful, especially for Celtic factions. The latter even have axes, making them a dual purpose unit.

[QuintusSertorius]

Anyway, speaking about units available to celtic factions, I was actually impressed by Massilian Hoplites - they can stand to Roman legions in normal circumstances.

Really? I've found them a good deal less capable than Keltohellenikoi.

[zenisar]

Really? I've found them a good deal less capable than Keltohellenikoi.

I just play around with Arverni campaign, trying to awake the "Celtic Storm" that once plundered Roma. Recently conquered Massilia. So in time, I will try once more both Keltohellenikoi and Massilian Hoplite against legions. Will let you know.

[QuintusSertorius]

I just play around with Arverni campaign, trying to awake the "Celtic Storm" that once plundered Roma. Recently conquered Massilia. So in time, I will try once more both Keltohellenikoi and Massilian Hoplite against legions. Will let you know.

Out of interest, are these Camillian or Polybian legions? Keltohellenikoi seem pretty well-matched to Camillian Hastati and even Principes, but the heavier-armoured Polybian variants are much more durable.

[athanaric]

Personally, I find it difficult to fight Romans as Gauls without axemen or other AP infantry. Reason being, Triarii (especially Camillan era), Pedites Extraordinarii, and Polybian Principes are very difficult to kill if all you have is spearmen and swordsmen. Sure, you have slingers and lancers for an AP punch, but they can't slug it out in melee. And slingers are notoriously bad at killing 4+ shield units from the front, and difficult to manoeuver around on the battlefield. Plus it's lame to spam those units. While Bataroas are the main killer unit in Gallic armies, you should always bring some Appea Gaedotos or Teceitos, or even Tekastos or Asturian axemen when fighting Romans.

[kdrakak]

Personally, I find it difficult to fight Romans as Gauls without axemen or other AP infantry. Reason being, Triarii (especially Camillan era), Pedites Extraordinarii, and Polybian Principes are very difficult to kill if all you have is spearmen and swordsmen. Sure, you have slingers and lancers for an AP punch, but they can't slug it out in melee.

In my experience, barbarian armies in Europe have the combination of speed, stamina and enhanced charge bonus as their greatest combat advantage. They don't hold the line against the Romans or anyone else... most of the time there is no line. They can however run their way to victory through any plan. They can team up on individual units that will rout and eventually get to the ones that don't usually rout, such as the Triarii and Pedites. Furthermore, most barbarian infantry units have a +8 charge bonus, while there are "freaks" with +10 or even +12 at reasonable prices, coming soon to a store near you! Outrun! Outcharge! Barbarize Barbarorum!!!

[Thoras]

In my experience, barbarian armies in Europe have the combination of speed, stamina and enhanced charge bonus as their greatest combat advantage. They don't hold the line against the Romans or anyone else... most of the time there is no line. They can however run their way to victory through any plan. They can team up on individual units that will rout and eventually get to the ones that don't usually rout, such as the Triarii and Pedites. Furthermore, most barbarian infantry units have a +8 charge bonus, while there are "freaks" with +10 or even +12 at reasonable prices, coming soon to a store near you! Outrun! Outcharge! Barbarize Barbarorum!!!

Well I'm currently playing a Sweboz campaign and they CAN definitely hold a line ;),even a against roman heavy infantry:
I usually pin them down with Dugundiz or Speudogordoz and use Clubmen to to kill them.

[kdrakak]

Well I'm currently playing a Sweboz campaign and they CAN definitely hold a line ;),even a against roman heavy infantry:
I usually pin them down with Dugundiz or Speudogordoz and use Clubmen to to kill them.

Speudogordoz are among the best Germanic infantry units, not "cheapest core". The principle is correct of course: gang up on them. However, if you are holding the line the attacker does the choosing. Why waiver that prerogative with a fast, high-stamina, barking band of beer-drunken and bloodthirsty Jerrys?
I would not really expect the Dugundiz to hold a line toe to toe against principes (which are pretty much same-tier units) under normal circumstances. But whatever floats your boat :)

[Thoras]

Speudogordoz are among the best Germanic infantry units, not "cheapest core". The principle is correct of course: gang up on them. However, if you are holding the line the attacker does the choosing. Why waiver that prerogative with a fast, high-stamina, barking band of beer-drunken and bloodthirsty Jerrys?
I would not really expect the Dugundiz to hold a line toe to toe against principes (which are pretty much same-tier units) under normal circumstances. But whatever floats your boat :)

It works if you block the Javelins ,with jugundiz, they can actually hold them with minimal losses,but most of my troops have 3 exp on default and my current main army(new campaign) has only silver chevrons.
Oh and they aren't holding the line for a long time I usually flank immediately,when fighting opponents with low morale I usually charge the enemy ;).

Speudogordoz are among the best Germanic infantry units, not "cheapest core".

Yeah I usually have only dugundiz ;) and the most of killing is done by the Slaganz .
But honestly by the time you get them you usually have enough money. ,my main point was that they can hold the line especially the Dacians and Sweboz.

[QuintusSertorius]

Just looking over the Qarthadastim roster again, and noting more Greek imitations; this time Parasim Libi-Ponnim (Liby-Phoenician Cavalry), who are Lonchophoroi Hippeis.

I wonder if I should just stow my dislike of AI Rome and give a Qart-Hadast game a go, just once...

[Thoras]

I wonder if I should just stow my dislike of AI Rome and give a Qart-Hadast game a go, just once...

Hmm I always though that it was too easy :Lot's of money and really good troops.