Does skirmisher‘s javelin has ap effect?

[kidpacific]

Greetings,everyone.
I konw heavy infantry's pilum has ap effect and the nomal skirmisher‘s stat_pri_attr is thrown without ap . Does skirmisher‘s javelin has an ap effect in EB battle? If skirmisher‘s javelin doesn't have ap effect, I wonder how could they kill elephants so quickly with only +2. bonus .Would you please help me?
Thanks forward.

[FriendlyFire]

Greetings,everyone.
I konw heavy infantry's pilum has ap effect and the nomal skirmisher‘s stat_pri_attr is thrown without ap . Does skirmisher‘s javelin has an ap effect in EB battle? If skirmisher‘s javelin doesn't have ap effect, I wonder how could they kill elephants so quickly with only +2. bonus .Would you please help me?
Thanks forward.

No, skirmisher javelins don't have an AP effect. However, the EDU guide states that thrown weapons are more effective against multi-hitpoint units, which may explain why javelins are so effective against elephants.

(I'm assuming that "more effective" means that thrown weapons negate some or all of the multiple HP, but that's only an assumption. Maybe someone knows for sure?)

[jirisys]

No, skirmisher javelins don't have an AP effect. However, the EDU guide states that thrown weapons are more effective against multi-hitpoint units, which may explain why javelins are so effective against elephants.

(I'm assuming that "more effective" means that thrown weapons negate some or all of the multiple HP, but that's only an assumption. Maybe someone knows for sure?)

On the EDU

mount_effect: (elephant, chariot, cavalry)

That's the effect they have on mounted unit

say...
Spearman: chariot -1, elephant -2, cavalry +3

Javelineer: chariot +2, elephant +3, cavalry -2

Reverse it and you will get the opposite effect

~Jirisys (EDU expert)

[kidpacific]

No, skirmisher javelins don't have an AP effect. However, the EDU guide states that thrown weapons are more effective against multi-hitpoint units, which may explain why javelins are so effective against elephants.

(I'm assuming that "more effective" means that thrown weapons negate some or all of the multiple HP, but that's only an assumption. Maybe someone knows for sure?)

Thanks for your detailed relay.I understand in some extent. So skirmisher can deal Gaesatae effectively,while only do little harm to spartan hoplite?

On the EDU

mount_effect: (elephant, chariot, cavalry)

That's the effect they have on mounted unit

say...
Spearman: chariot -1, elephant -2, cavalry +3

Javelineer: chariot +2, elephant +3, cavalry -2

Reverse it and you will get the opposite effect

~Jirisys (EDU expert)

Javelineer's attack is about 4-6,with +3 bonus is 7-9, no ap effect; India elephant's mount amor is 24 ,
So i wonder how they can slaughter elephant so effectively.

[jirisys]

Javelineer's attack is about 4-6,with +3 bonus is 7-9, no ap effect; India elephant's mount amor is 24 ,
So i wonder how they can slaughter elephant so effectively.

120 skirmishers vs 12 elephants?

~Jirisys (do the math)

[kidpacific]

120 skirmishers vs 12 elephants?

~Jirisys (do the math)

Thanks for answering.
High exp archer's attack is higher than 7-9, but they seem to be useless vs elepahant. Even 100 skirmisher cavalries are much more useful than 160 high exp archers in this aspect. So i assume the difference comes from the range attack type. I think there are sonmething more than attack bonus.

[Vaginacles]

Perhaps Arrows and spears are different weapon types and thus have different attributes?

[jirisys]

Perhaps Arrows and spears are different weapon types and thus have different attributes?

From EDU:

;181
type             greek missile toxotai
dictionary       greek_missile_toxotai      ; Toxotai
category         infantry
class            missile
voice_type       Heavy_1
soldier          hellenistic_missile_toxotai, 30, 0, 0.85
mount_effect     chariot +2, horse -2, elephant +1
attributes       sea_faring, hide_improved_forest, hide_long_grass, can_sap, very_hardy
formation        1.6, 2, 3.2, 4, 4, square
stat_health      1, 1
stat_pri         3, 0, arrow, 143, 15, missile, archery, piercing, none, 15 ,1
stat_pri_attr    no
stat_sec         7, 0, no, 0, 0, melee, simple, piercing, knife, 0 ,0.04
stat_sec_attr    no
stat_pri_armour  2, 6, 0, flesh
stat_sec_armour  0, 0, flesh
stat_heat        1
stat_ground      0, 0, 1, -1
stat_mental      8, low, untrained
stat_charge_dist 30
stat_fire_delay  0
stat_food        60, 300
stat_cost        1, 411, 103, 40, 60, 411
ownership        greek_cities, thrace, macedon, carthage, romans_julii, numidia, seleucid, egypt, dacia, armenia, gauls, scythia, slave

;142
type             greek skirmisher akontistai
dictionary       greek_skirmisher_akontistai      ; Akontistai
category         infantry
class            missile
voice_type       General_1
soldier          hellenistic_missile_akontistai, 60, 0, 0.85
mount_effect     elephant +2, chariot +2, horse -2
attributes       sea_faring, hide_forest, can_sap, hardy, hide_long_grass
formation        1.6, 2, 3.2, 4, 7, square
stat_health      1, 1
stat_pri         4, 2, javelin, 55, 6, thrown, simple, piercing, spear, 10 ,1
stat_pri_attr    thrown
stat_sec         7, 2, no, 0, 0, melee, simple, piercing, knife, 0 ,0.04
stat_sec_attr    no
stat_pri_armour  1, 6, 2, flesh
stat_sec_armour  0, 0, flesh
stat_heat        1
stat_ground      0, 0, 0, -2
stat_mental      8, low, untrained
stat_charge_dist 30
stat_fire_delay  0
stat_food        60, 300
stat_cost        1, 810, 202, 20, 30, 810
ownership        thrace, macedon, carthage, romans_julii, numidia, seleucid, egypt, greek_cities, dacia, armenia, gauls, scythia, slave

Resuming: Akontistai: +1 elephant than Toxotai, Akontistai javelin +1 attack than toxotai, Akontistai +30 men than toxotai (normal unit size), Akontistai -7 ammo than toxotai.

Akontistai advantage: 60*2*4*6=2880
Toxotai advantage: 30*1*3*15=1350

Akontistai advantage over toxotai: 2880/1350=2.133333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333

~Jirisys (I told you to do the math )

[Cute Wolf]

From EDU:

;181
type             greek missile toxotai
dictionary       greek_missile_toxotai      ; Toxotai
category         infantry
class            missile
voice_type       Heavy_1
soldier          hellenistic_missile_toxotai, 30, 0, 0.85
mount_effect     chariot +2, horse -2, elephant +1
attributes       sea_faring, hide_improved_forest, hide_long_grass, can_sap, very_hardy
formation        1.6, 2, 3.2, 4, 4, square
stat_health      1, 1
stat_pri         3, 0, arrow, 143, 15, missile, archery, piercing, none, 15 ,1
stat_pri_attr    no
stat_sec         7, 0, no, 0, 0, melee, simple, piercing, knife, 0 ,0.04
stat_sec_attr    no
stat_pri_armour  2, 6, 0, flesh
stat_sec_armour  0, 0, flesh
stat_heat        1
stat_ground      0, 0, 1, -1
stat_mental      8, low, untrained
stat_charge_dist 30
stat_fire_delay  0
stat_food        60, 300
stat_cost        1, 411, 103, 40, 60, 411
ownership        greek_cities, thrace, macedon, carthage, romans_julii, numidia, seleucid, egypt, dacia, armenia, gauls, scythia, slave

;142
type             greek skirmisher akontistai
dictionary       greek_skirmisher_akontistai      ; Akontistai
category         infantry
class            missile
voice_type       General_1
soldier          hellenistic_missile_akontistai, 60, 0, 0.85
mount_effect     elephant +2, chariot +2, horse -2
attributes       sea_faring, hide_forest, can_sap, hardy, hide_long_grass
formation        1.6, 2, 3.2, 4, 7, square
stat_health      1, 1
stat_pri         4, 2, javelin, 55, 6, thrown, simple, piercing, spear, 10 ,1
stat_pri_attr    thrown
stat_sec         7, 2, no, 0, 0, melee, simple, piercing, knife, 0 ,0.04
stat_sec_attr    no
stat_pri_armour  1, 6, 2, flesh
stat_sec_armour  0, 0, flesh
stat_heat        1
stat_ground      0, 0, 0, -2
stat_mental      8, low, untrained
stat_charge_dist 30
stat_fire_delay  0
stat_food        60, 300
stat_cost        1, 810, 202, 20, 30, 810
ownership        thrace, macedon, carthage, romans_julii, numidia, seleucid, egypt, greek_cities, dacia, armenia, gauls, scythia, slave

Resuming: Akontistai: +1 elephant than Toxotai, Akontistai javelin +1 attack than toxotai, Akontistai +30 men than toxotai (normal unit size), Akontistai -7 ammo than toxotai.

Akontistai advantage: 60*2*4*6=2880
Toxotai advantage: 30*1*3*15=1350

Akontistai advantage over toxotai: 2880/1350=2.133333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333

~Jirisys (I told you to do the math )

you forgot the "thrown" attribute of the javelins, they will negate the double shield value against missiles, and deal more damage when the targets have more hitpoints.

source : http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showthread.php?t=111344

~ Cute Wolf

[Vaginacles]

I really didn't need to do the math, all you have to do is think about the size of a javelin compared to an arrow ^^

[vartan]

I really didn't need to do the math, all you have to do is think about the size of a javelin compared to an arrow ^^

Exactly. Sometimes you gotta just stop and relax. Not everything in life is Rocket Science!

[kidpacific]

you forgot the "thrown" attribute of the javelins, they will negate the double shield value against missiles, and deal more damage when the targets have more hitpoints.

source : http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showthread.php?t=111344

~ Cute Wolf

Many thanks, that is exactlly what i need.
Because your kindness and knowledge, this problem is solved.

Perhaps Arrows and spears are different weapon types and thus have different attributes?

Thanks for your help, you are a kind man.

[Cute Wolf]

Many thanks, that is exactlly what i need.
Because your kindness and knowledge, this problem is solved.

ahh, no problem mate, (...)

~ Cute Wolf

[jirisys]

Many thanks, that is exactlly what i need.
Because your kindness and knowledge, this problem is solved.

It wasn't a problem, so much as a query...

try http://rtw.heavengames.com/rtw/mods/...ls/index.shtml for more detailed and complete information on most of the RTW modifiable files

~Jirisys

[Blxz]

That picture means so much to me. it means you have the old style colour of the forums while I am stuck with this stupid red Shogun 2 background. How do I change it to be that babyshit brown colour again?

[Ludens]

That picture means so much to me. it means you have the old style colour of the forums while I am stuck with this stupid red Shogun 2 background. How do I change it to be that babyshit brown colour again?

Go to the drop-down menu on the bottom left of the screen and select "Guild".