Xeruskōz are Celts?

[Tartaros]

Hello,

i just read an interessting book (Rainer Friebe isbn 3-933046-36x) about the location of the Varus-battle ("Te ut o burgi ensi saltu") near halberstadt/harz.

early on, friebe decribed the Xeruskōz as celtic peopel in orgin and thinking. mainly because of the relations with the also celtic (hallstatt) xabukaz/chauki(Friebe) and because of there headhunter-mentality - arminius send the head of varus to marbod and the Xeruskoz nailed alot of heads in the woods and sacrifice prisoners in "weidriesen" after the battle. but i don´t know if that is typical for celts only. an other aspect are the settlements that often end with -um (for opidum or dunum) like in beckum today.

In EB, the Xeruskōz have an extra sword-unit. AFAIK, iron was expensive and more typical for celts.

So, can anybody tell me more about the Xeruskōz and what is the historical backround for the "Druhtiz Herusku"?

[Fluvius Camillus]

Hello,

i just read an interessting book (Rainer Friebe isbn 3-933046-36x) about the location of the Varus-battle ("Te ut o burgi ensi saltu") near halberstadt/harz.

early on, friebe decribed the Xeruskōz as celtic peopel in orgin and thinking. mainly because of the relations with the also celtic (hallstatt) xabukaz/chauki(Friebe) and because of there headhunter-mentality - arminius send the head of varus to marbod and the Xeruskoz nailed alot of heads in the woods and sacrifice prisoners in "weidriesen" after the battle. but i don´t know if that is typical for celts only. an other aspect are the settlements that often end with -um (for opidum or dunum) like in beckum today.

In EB, the Xeruskōz have an extra sword-unit. AFAIK, iron was expensive and more typical for celts.

So, can anybody tell me more about the Xeruskōz and what is the historical backround for the "Druhtiz Herusku"?

I don't know about this though, so instead I'm asking you questions

The Bold Underlined part, does that mean that the Chauci Warband is Celtic too (Druhtiz Habukisku)?


As someone from the Netherlands, to what culture group do the Batavians belong? And what about the Frisians?

~Fluvius

[athanaric]

My uneducated guess is that they were Germanic people living close to Celts, which means they were heavily influenced by Celtic culture.

How come Mr Friebe places the battle near Halberstadt?

[Tartaros]

I don't know about this though, so instead I'm asking you questions

The Bold Underlined part, does that mean that the Chauci Warband is Celtic too (Druhtiz Habukisku)?

ok, i don´t know that also.

friebe says that celtic peopel not only moved south and south-east to iberia and ankyra and so on. also north over the alps along the great rivers rhine and elbe (don´t know in english).
the Chauci and Frisians peopel because of there close relations to the celtic Chauki in england, like later on the angeln and saxons. there settlements named also with -um from dunum or opidum) like today brinkum and borkum.

Dio: the Habukisku and Xeruskōz speak a diffrent (celtic?) language to suebi-peopel and are the first that have contracts with rome. friebe: because they have closer contact as celts than other groups in germania magna

[Tartaros]

How come Mr Friebe places the battle near Halberstadt?

this can fill a hole day :), but i think its interesting

he believe that kalkriese is the battle at pontes longi 15ad mainly because of tacitus, dio and florus II.

halberstadt because of the location "te ut o burgi ensi saltu" = there, where the saltu (=latifundia) that was destroyed, being just grow up and secured by sword and tower (burgi=greek =tower, not turres)

in his opinion the norther-harz area was a growing roman saltu. it has a special (good) microklimate. quedlinburg is still today famos for plants and growing.

he also believe that the romans were defeat in open battle, because early and later army don´t had such "problems" like varus. for example, the battle at pontus longi is fought in castru formation.

[Centurio Nixalsverdrus]

Oppidum is a Latin word I thought???

Don't know from what date this book is, but it's widely accepted that the Varus battle took place at Kalkriese near Osnabrück, and that's quite a few hundred kilometres north of Halberstadt.

Being under Celtic influence doesn't mean being Celtic. Of course, the Germanic people were the most "primitive" cultural group at this time, except the Slavs perhaps (living in Pripjet swamp at that time iirc), and that means that they would easily adopt cultural / technical things from other cultures like the Romans or the Celts.

I have learned (and was really surprised) that the Teutons, Cimbri and Ambrones are nowadays supposed to have been more Celtic, according to cmacq, who points to the Gundestrup Kessel in that regard. I have really strong doubts that the Angles and Saxons of late antiquity were Celts.

To me, it seems like that: Celts influenced many Germanic peoples, and of course those living in the south and the west more than these of the east (Suebi). Nerthuz is supposed to be a deity of Celtic origin. That doesn't mean those people were Celtic. We are not Americans because we like to drink Coke.

I think that the statements of this author are rather odd (and typical left wing).

[Tartaros]

I have really strong doubts that the Angles and Saxons of late antiquity were Celts.

i mean the local connection of chauci(germany/netherland) and chauki (england)

like

angeln and saxons in later times

the book is from 1999

even wikipedia (ok, its wikipedia) say´s that kalkriese is not for sure

http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fundregion_Kalkriese (german only)

[MeinPanzer]

I have learned (and was really surprised) that the Teutons, Cimbri and Ambrones are nowadays supposed to have been more Celtic, according to cmacq, who points to the Gundestrup Kessel in that regard. I have really strong doubts that the Angles and Saxons of late antiquity were Celts.

The Gundestrup cauldron was almost certainly produced among the Scordisci or a tribe closely related to them, and its production had nothing to do with any Germanic peoples. One hypothesis is that it was taken back to the Jutland peninsula after the Cimbri invaded the Balkans, but that doesn't mean that any information on the iconography or the form itself of the cauldron reflects upon the Cimbri.

[geala]

I would be very careful with the book of Mr. Friebe and especially what he said about the Varus battle. There is very convincing evidence that the dip near Kalkriese was the place of the battle. Of course some things are still problematic (f.e.discussion about the coins found, a sword sheath part with a inscription of the legio I and so on) but these are minor concerns.

The distinction between Celts and Germanics is difficult and has an artificial element. The Celts had an urban culture (oppidae) which the Germanics normally had not, but even there were seemingly mixtures. The Germanics were at least heavily influenced by the Celtic culture.

[Tartaros]

I think that the statements of this author are rather odd (and typical left wing).

Normally i share your opinion, but friebe deserted from gdr in the sixties. i don´t think he is a typical leftwing agitator...

There is very convincing evidence that the dip near Kalkriese was the place of the battle.

Really?
the osning is today called "teutoburger wald". did we call him now osning again, because of kalkriese?
i think small communities like bramsche and kalkriese have a massive touristical and financial interest. so i would be carefull with this.

anyway.
i read a bit about the settlements borkum, beckum, dötzum and so on. i think some of them are more related to medieval -heim or -hem instead of celtic dunum. so this indicate no celtic orgin.
but i also found out, that ptolemäus called 6 big city´s or settlement in germania magna. a modern measurement (Berlin - 2004) located them around the harz area.

[Frostwulf]

The only thing I have read on Rainer Friebe comes from the forum "Roman Army Talk". This is what one person said of him:
"As to Schoppe I dont know about him, but his website reminded me of the *very special* Friebe forum - which for entertainment I absolutely suggest for german readers".

Does Freibe mention the other classical authors such as Tacitus, Pliny, Livy, etc. which call the Cherusci and the Chauci Germanic? Does he come up with a reason for the tribal names being Germanic (Chauci-hauhoz), (Cherusci-herut(Much)) as well as their leaders names? Does Freibe go into the archeological record and explain how the items found belong to the North Sea group?

Unless Freibe comes up with something better then head-hunting, different language(lots of problems with this, such as dialect and ignorance of the situation), and a possible relation to the Chauki, I will have to go with the likes of Drinkwater, Todd, Much, Schmid, Goldsworthy, Wenskus, Will, Wells, Thompson, etc, etc.

Also as far as the Cimbri, Teutons and Ambrones are concerned, the vast majority of historians still consider them Germanic, mostly based on Pliny.

[athanaric]

Sounds like Mr Friebe is some kind of relative of Guido Knopp

[blitzkrieg80]

early on, friebe decribed the Xeruskōz as celtic peopel in orgin and thinking. mainly because of the relations with the also celtic (hallstatt) xabukaz/chauki(Friebe) and because of there headhunter-mentality - arminius send the head of varus to marbod and the Xeruskoz nailed alot of heads in the woods and sacrifice prisoners in "weidriesen" after the battle. but i don´t know if that is typical for celts only. an other aspect are the settlements that often end with -um (for opidum or dunum) like in beckum today.

the particular Celtic fondness of head-hunting aside, the practice is very common to Indo-European culture: SEE Scythians who use their enemies' heads as cups.

placenames (European in particular) with -um endings are coincidental because that just happens to be an Indo-European plural suffix /declension - amazing!
For instance, Old English has -um as the dative plural ending for strong masculine/neuter nouns: OE scipum = 'ships'

placenames with -dunum (eventually meaning 'town' from 'hill-fort') would be much more correct, as the Celtic root implies more, and linked to some extent to the very common Germanic root seen in -ton (Washington / Hampton) from -tun in Old English, thought to be loan but the jury is still out, especially since it could be an unknown Indo-European root common between... but considering the sheer amound of oppida in Europe...

yep - the Cherusci are thought to be named after the Germanic word for 'sword' and they are in a Celto-Germanic zone of trade and influence, thus they indeed wield Celtic longswords, while somewhat too numerous an aggregation for a proper portrayal, a lack of would be equally innaccurate.

[geala]

...


Really?
the osning is today called "teutoburger wald". did we call him now osning again, because of kalkriese?
i think small communities like bramsche and kalkriese have a massive touristical and financial interest. so i would be carefull with this.

...

The name "Teutoburger Wald" was given to the Osning in the 17th c. AD. A common modern reconstruction of the Clades Variana is that the battle lasted 3 or 4 days and occupied a far greater area than the Kalkriese-Niewedder dip where the excavations were made until now. It could perhaps have started near the Osning ridge. I think the whole region was named saltus teutoburgiensis (wood of the forts of the people) by Tacitus. So no need to change the name for the Osning again or move the ugly nationalistic 19th-century "Hermannsdenkmal" (monument for Arminius).

Of course the Kalkriese findings had a great commercial impact to the region. But regional influence onto the scientific szene in Germany is not so huge that this would force all people to support Kalkriese as the place of the battle. It is not proved that Kalkriese has to do with Varus defeat but it is in my opinion far more probable than the other explanations. By now, that can change of course.

[Tartaros]

So no need to change the name for the Osning again or move the ugly nationalistic 19th-century "Hermannsdenkmal" (monument for Arminius).

you are right, probably it could be seen as memorial instead of a monument.

Of course the Kalkriese findings had a great commercial impact to the region. But regional influence onto the scientific szene in Germany is not so huge that this would force all people to support Kalkriese as the place of the battle. It is not proved that Kalkriese has to do with Varus defeat but it is in my opinion far more probable than the other explanations. By now, that can change of course.

best is that a lot of peopel think about this time and remember history.

the particular Celtic fondness of head-hunting aside, the practice is very common to Indo-European culture: SEE Scythians who use their enemies' heads as cups.

ok, so this could be a spiritual / religious thing in indoeuropean culture right? (and possible deterrence)

also interessting, the continuing development of language. i don´t know that ton is related with dunum.

yep - the Cherusci are thought to be named after the Germanic word for 'sword' and they are in a Celto-Germanic zone of trade and influence, thus they indeed wield Celtic longswords, while somewhat too numerous an aggregation for a proper portrayal, a lack of would be equally innaccurate.

Ahh, thanks for this info. that answer my question

Sounds like Mr Friebe is some kind of relative of Guido Knopp

The only thing I have read on Rainer Friebe comes from the forum "Roman Army Talk". This is what one person said of him:
"As to Schoppe I dont know about him, but his website reminded me of the *very special* Friebe forum - which for entertainment I absolutely suggest for german readers".

net-twitter, i don´t give bug.

Does Freibe mention the other classical authors such as Tacitus, Pliny, Livy, etc. which call the Cherusci and the Chauci Germanic?

yes, friebe says (and our world history is full of this) that all peopel in history like romans, often generalize there enemys. they are barbarian galli, germanic or whatever. romans divided this groups arbitrarily into left and right sight of the rhine.

Does he come up with a reason for the tribal names being Germanic (Chauci-hauhoz), (Cherusci-herut(Much)) as well as their leaders names?

no, but he didn´t say that the cherusci are pure celts (that was my topic - to intensify a little bit). he said they have a celtic orgin and thinking. so the time between the celtic hallstatt migrations and 9 ad is big enough to melt this culture (if you assume that they have a celtic aspect). i personally see no problem in it. best example are the polish immigrants in germany in the early 20th. a lot of -ski´s, -row´s names are today "normal" german surname.

Does Freibe go into the archeological record and explain how the items found belong to the North Sea group?

yes, he did (by the way he is an architect). 40% of the book are about it.

i don´t want to defend friebe as an infallible historian. the book is interessting and it has got many unusual aspects, but if an author develops a theory, why should i dogmatise his opinions?

thats why i ask in this forum about the cherusci sword unit

[blitzkrieg80]

Ironically, EB2 will see revision / redistribution around the Rhineland, especially the Cherusci area...

I remember figuring out a new name for the area since I don't like (x)tribe+'land' names for less inclusive tribes who could not possibly have been the only one the area is known for. I remember the Osning being an excellent basis for the area especially in light of the fact that Teutoburg was a very late construction... on a similar note, the phrase 'Herman the German' is sooo annoying. it's so NOT the same name stupid modernity

I think there is a trend of over-qualifying the Celtic-ness of Celto-Germanic borderlands, but in general, it is true. Many areas taken over by Germanic-speakers of Late Antiquity were originally Celtic oppida and territory surrounding.. the question remains how many traditionally-viewed ethnic German / Germanic-speakers were practicers of La Tene / Halstatt who thus do not appear on radar and how early might they have assimilated and/or migrated? it is a sure fact that Caesar's 'Germans' were a piece of political propoganda to reinforce his occupation of Gaul, but tribes in Belgium and elsewhere DID call themselves so with pride, but the meaning was certainly not the same as 'Deutsch'.

If anything, the Nordwestblock and uniqueness of cultural throughput in the area of the Netherlands points to a third grouping not quite describable as Germanic or Celtic...

Interesting stuff.

[Tartaros]

Really!
that´s very interesting - can´t wait to play it in EB2!!!

You tell about a possible third group or unknown Indo-European root. this is absolutly new to me.
Can you please call me some resources or some books were i can find more about it?? a fascinating theme!

thanx for the response

[Tellos Athenaios]

ok, so this could be a spiritual / religious thing in indoeuropean culture right? (and possible deterrence)

Well, a certain obsession with skulls (and death) is something part of nigh any culture... And the finishing touch of chopping the head of your foe off after he's already been killed... common enough.

[Tartaros]

Ok, But i think an other important aspect could be the celtic concept of soul and oiw. the head was home of courage and strength.
So collecting skulls was like collecting courage and strength of a defeated opponent and add it to the personal strengh .

[Watchman]

Captain Obvious thinks it doesn't seem particularly odd that things get pretty mixed up and murky in the "interface zones" between major culture-groups... rather, it'd be odd if they *didn't*.

[mountaingoat]

So collecting skulls was like collecting courage and strength of a defeated opponent and add it to the personal strengh .

yes and i think this is common throughout many cultures . There is also something about decapitating an opponent so that their energy does not return to the planet/realm or has difficulty coming back or something, will need to look more into that.

[russia almighty]

yes and i think this is common throughout many cultures . There is also something about decapitating an opponent so that their energy does not return to the planet/realm or has difficulty coming back or something, will need to look more into that.

Wait, isn't defiling a corpse to prevent a successful afterlife, almost culturally universal?

[Frostwulf]

Well Tartaros now you have me a bit interested in his book. What is the name of his book, I want to check it out as well as the peer reviews on it.

[Tartaros]

Wait, isn't defiling a corpse to prevent a successful afterlife, almost culturally universal?

yes and i think this is common throughout many cultures . There is also something about decapitating an opponent so that their energy does not return to the planet/realm or has difficulty coming back or something, will need to look more into that.

all i now is that celts had 4 element zones: the centre = the Oiw , the intellectual realization, the living world(with soul) and the dead(and unsoul) material. So the dead was travel between this zones. I don´t think that defiling a corpse prevent a successful afterlife, because the body becomes undead material and the soul Oiw.
This Oiw visite from time to time for memory in other peopels mind till its is forgotten.

So technically, if you have a skull, you remember the person and tada his oiw is in your mind. but i´m not sure...

[Tartaros]

Well Tartaros now you have me a bit interested in his book. What is the name of his book, I want to check it out as well as the peer reviews on it.

Ok, best is follow this link:
http://www.amazon.de/gesichert-T%C3%.../dp/393304636X

Rainer Friebe
title: ... gesichert von Türmen, geschützt vom Schwert, ... - Varusschlacht bei Halberstadt (Schlacht im Teutoburger Wald)
ISBN-10: 3-933046-36x

(it becomes more expensive, i payed 28,00 euros!!!)

[mountaingoat]

Wait, isn't defiling a corpse to prevent a successful afterlife, almost culturally universal?

maybe something along those lines, something about delaying or distressing energies .. though i was not being specific to celtic culture , brought that up mostly due to the relation to the head , since collecting skulls was mentioned.