What do we know about the economy?

[Rothe]

I think it would be nice to discuss the economy also here on these forums and try to come up with some ideas for a guide that helps to choose buildings and what to do with agents to boost your economy.

My findings from the game and other forums:

Food
Food surplus adds to the growth in each of your provinces. That means, a food spent means -1 growth in all your provinces, regardless of what you spend it on.

This means, if you control 5+ towns, you will lose growth if you have to build a castle upgrade just to add a market. Since most games will get to 5+ provinces quite fast, it means you should not generally upgrade castles only to include a market slot.

For the same reason the rice exchange and bigger buildings in the market chain actually hurt growth, since they themselves use up food. The only reason to build them would be to get better Metsuke, but the tech research for that is slow.

Since food is so strongly linked to growth, it also means you should be stingy on building castles up, unless you can really benefit from the castle defenses, repression, recruit slots etc. For me, it means I will not build up castles if the area is not crucial for defense, or unless I need several building chains for unit production because the area is good for that (metalsmith, horses, crafts). In addition, I max out farms. With this tactic, playing for a while, I can see that my total growth is better than those early games where I build up markets.

Metsuke
Since Metsuke add to tax rate when overseeing towns, it means that they are really a part of the economics engine of the game. Making use of them is key. I try to find places where I can build a market (See above where not to build), and those places are basically provinces where I don't have troop production (I might even scrap a troop building if I don't need it) and where I have good commodities/other wealth producing buildings. Stack your wealth in a limited number of provinces so you can use your limited supply of Metsuke to boost tax in those provinces. Eventually, try to find places where to fit 5 markets, so you can have the max number of Metsuke.

Trade
Here I have more questions than answers.
How are commodities divided amount exports and own use? Certain amount of commodity can be sold to one clan? No idea.


Summary of my notes:- Food = growth in all provinces. Every spent food = -1 growth in all provinces
- Avoid spending food on anything that is not really essential. - Max out farms.
- Metsuke XP = bonus to tax levels. I think it is 5% per star, but it might change when XP goes up.
- Build 5 markets to get 5 metsuke. Build them in places where you don't have to upgrade castles just to include markets. In early game you probably can only build a few.
- Stack your wealth in places where you have commodities. That makes it easier for using Metsuke to boost taxes.

I am not trying to impose one particular way to play. I just want people to notice what I did not during my first week of playing.

[Zarky]

This means, if you control 5+ towns, you will lose growth if you have to build a castle upgrade just to add a market. Since most games will get to 5+ provinces quite fast, it means you should not generally upgrade castles only to include a market slot.

But a single market gives you +5 to that provinces growth and the ability to recruit metsuke and the upgraded castle gives you better spawned defense troops, very tiny bonus to bushido arts and at higher levels they also increase replenishment rate. Therefore you should avoid upgrading castles just to include market once you reach the maximum number of metsuke.

For the same reason the rice exchange and bigger buildings in the market chain actually hurt growth, since they themselves use up food. The only reason to build them would be to get better Metsuke, but the tech research for that is slow.

It might actually be better to recruit your metsuke from philosophical tradition province. If you're only ever going to use metsuke to oversee town you don't need +2 experience levels. To max metsuke efficiency you'd need top level market in a philosophical tradition province.

Trade
Here I have more questions than answers.
How are commodities divided amount exports and own use? Certain amount of commodity can be sold to one clan? No idea.

When ever you have trade commodity, it's spread evenly to your trading partners. Evenly here is relative, it depends on the size of clans. Big clan buys more silk than a small clan. Any surplus that you can't sell to trading partners is sold within your clan automatically for a smaller price.

Edit: And yes, metsuke give 5% bonus to taxes per level (character effect part) which is of course then reduced by your administration cost.
If you see any number not divisible by 5 in character effect, this is because you have a general as finance commissioner.

[Rothe]

But a single market gives you +5 to that provinces growth and the ability to recruit metsuke and the upgraded castle gives you better spawned defense troops, very tiny bonus to bushido arts and at higher levels they also increase replenishment rate. Therefore you should avoid upgrading castles just to include market once you reach the maximum number of metsuke.

Actually, my tactic is to find provinces where I am not going to do anything else (like recruitment) and reserve them for markets. That means, I would not upgrade a military town castle to include a market in any case. I am better off conquering a town and putting the market there (even scrapping an unneeded troop building).

It might actually be better to recruit your metsuke from philosophical tradition province. If you're only ever going to use metsuke to oversee town you don't need +2 experience levels. To max metsuke efficiency you'd need top level market in a philosophical tradition province.

I agree. Although, doesn't the extra XP mean extra tax in any case, or is there a limit to what a Metsuke can add?

When ever you have trade commodity, it's spread evenly to your trading partners. Evenly here is relative, it depends on the size of clans. Big clan buys more silk than a small clan. Any surplus that you can't sell to trading partners is sold within your clan automatically for a smaller price.

So, basically it just means it is better to get enough trade partners to avoid surplus. I am guessing that it is always better to have more partners.

I still am a bit at odds with the value of a trade route shown on a sea lane to a trade node, and how that gets converted into profit for me. For instance, after the realm divide I am without any allies, but the sea lane values are still the same, even if I should now be using the goods for my own consumption (which would mean they have less value). But I am guessing the value of the outside trade to the nodes is separate from the value of trade goods I get from there.

Edit: And yes, metsuke give 5% bonus to taxes per level (character effect part) which is of course then reduced by your administration cost.
If you see any number not divisible by 5 in character effect, this is because you have a general as finance commissioner.

[Rothe]

I just wanted to add that I am not really against upgrading castles. I am just against upgrading castles when you don't need the extra benefits from them.

So, in regards to the market, I prefer to put them somewhere that does not require a big castle level.
It is better to specialise some areas for troops and usually troop production provinces will need a castle of level 3 or so (few basic troop buildings and an encampment). Building one more level of castle there for a market is a waste because the level will be expensive to build there.

Defensive value of castles in terms of free defenders and replenishment is another concern, but that you can't really link with the discussion on economics. That is more of a question of conquest strategy.

I do find myself upgrading a seemingly good defensive position a bit too easily, since that might later on become a province behind the lines when I conquest the next one.

For defense, I prefer to keep max 3 levels of castle, until I get to the real divide event preparation phase. That way, I can get food surplus since I have some castles at 3 and some at lower, and level 3 farms are pretty easy to get everywhere.Building level 4 castles just for defensive purposes before the realm divide is not needed in my opinion, but most of my gaming is on hard level.

[aimlesswanderer]

Hang on, metsuke boost tax? Mine were wasting time scouting for enemy armies. Crap, best leave that to my bludging ninja. If the tax bonus is level dependant, you should have one high level market, to train tax maximising metsuke. I have definitely become more selective with what buildings I build, especially troop training ones - I used to use up every spot I could. And am much more careful when building buildings which use food.

[Zarky]

Metsuke give the 5% per star, but 1st experience level nets them the skill that adds 2 cunning when overseeing towns, but 2nd experience level only affects overseeing armies while 3rd would give more to overseeing towns. While overseeing towns, you gain exp so slowly that you probably won't make it to 4 stars if starting from 3, but you can make it from 2 to 3 stars, also netting you a possibly beneficial retainer.
And for me at least all metsuke are recruited very early, mostly from a philosophical tradition province which I develop towards improved research.

Of course if you ever get a top level market to a province with magistrate/law court, you could build ships and drown your metsuke 1 by 1 and recruit new ones.

[Rothe]

Hang on, metsuke boost tax? Mine were wasting time scouting for enemy armies. Crap, best leave that to my bludging ninja. If the tax bonus is level dependant, you should have one high level market, to train tax maximising metsuke. I have definitely become more selective with what buildings I build, especially troop training ones - I used to use up every spot I could. And am much more careful when building buildings which use food.

For building even one high level market you need several things:
- Koku amount of the building upgrades
- Time - the total build time is quite long. You could be using the investment for other valuable stuff earlier (like troops)
- Chi research (I think the rice exchange tech you get when going for farms, but the otheres I am not so sure about)
- 2+ food

For me, the benefit from building a merchant guild or the top level building seems like a waste even with the higher level Metsuke.
It costs a lot, you lose 2 food which is 2 x your number of towns in growth and the research I could be using for better things.

I agree a lot with Zarky that the philosophical tradition is the way to go. Or, get a small apprehension bonus and hope for a busy place with low level agents to level up your Metsuke via apprehension, and then take them to oversee the things.
Even the second level of Metsuke is good enough in my opinion compared to building stuff to get more, unless the buildings also net you other things like research.

[Rothe]

I have been trying to look into what determines the value of my trade with my trade partners, and surely more provinces = more profit. Still, I don't really know if it is in fact based on wealth, or just number of provinces.

I could see a clear difference when I had Takeda as my partner, and they slowly were cut down in number of provinces. I think at first I had like 3.5k value on the route, and later on it dwindled down to 2.5k and a bit later to 2k. They still have about 4 provinces left. Sadly, I lack a spy (or other info) about the wealth of their provinces...

[Daveybaby]

I'm finding the best approach is to only upgrade a few strategically located provinces and leave all other provinces at either first or second level (i.e. as i've found them, i never actually upgrade them) with a variety of markets, shrines and tea-houses, as appropriate to the location. These less developed provinces almost never have any troop production facilities (apart from the odd siege engineer, or occasionally to take advantage of unit bonuses). Markets are never upgraded past the first level.

Thus i have a small number of fully upgraded provinces each of which are capable of producing all varieties of units, at high skill levels (ideally located on armourer/weaponsmith or other bonus giving locations). These elite troops are then padded out with utterly mundane zero skill yari and bow ashigaru recruited from the more numerous underdeveloped provinces.

This lets you get massive growth in the early game (which is when it really matters) by having lots of surplus food, which you can keep going all the way through the mid game until you hit the realm divide event. At this point its probably worth sacrificing that extra food and upgrading your markets to boost your cash now that youve lost a lot of trade income.

It goes without saying that farms are upgraded everywhere as a priority, though i try to restrain myself to building the highest level farms at only fertile & very fertile locations.

[Rothe]

I'm finding the best approach is to only upgrade a few strategically located provinces and leave all other provinces at either first or second level (i.e. as i've found them, i never actually upgrade them) with a variety of markets, shrines and tea-houses, as appropriate to the location. These less developed provinces almost never have any troop production facilities (apart from the odd siege engineer, or occasionally to take advantage of unit bonuses). Markets are never upgraded past the first level.

I agree. Although, I always take care to utilize province bonuses for unit stats (crafts, armorer, horses, holy site). Basically these provinces are priority 1. The rest are priorized for upgrades mostly just if they have an important strategic location on the expected frontline or not.

Thus i have a small number of fully upgraded provinces each of which are capable of producing all varieties of units, at high skill levels (ideally located on armourer/weaponsmith or other bonus giving locations). These elite troops are then padded out with utterly mundane zero skill yari and bow ashigaru recruited from the more numerous underdeveloped provinces.

Ashigaru I recruit in the beginning from anywhere I can get them, but later on I end up disbanding "vanilla" ashigaru and I seem to be able to produce them with at least some bonuses to armor and perhaps even attack. I don't rush so much in the mid game, so I kind of wean out the weak units and rotate in fully upgraded ones while I still have my trade to give me funds for it - I do it even for some samurai units. My idea is to max out the unit stats I get for the upkeep I will have to pay for it. The recruitment cost is small compared to the upkeep over the whole campaign anyway. Also, I use some ashigaru in most of my army, and they have to be top notch to be of use.

For the late game, I expect to build very few new units anymore, except to keep the peace.

This lets you get massive growth in the early game (which is when it really matters) by having lots of surplus food, which you can keep going all the way through the mid game until you hit the realm divide event. At this point its probably worth sacrificing that extra food and upgrading your markets to boost your cash now that youve lost a lot of trade income.

It goes without saying that farms are upgraded everywhere as a priority, though i try to restrain myself to building the highest level farms at only fertile & very fertile locations.

I max farms everywhere, but I play a long campaign so it makes more sense. I don't see the point of not maxing out farms. For the cost side of it, I always have enough koku in mid game to upgrade everything I need, and I avoid the divide until I am happy with my provinces (15 - 16 provinces at that point). Having a solid food surplus for the end game is important, and the surplus also keeps on giving growth. I don't care if a location is fertile, since I want the food, the wealth bonus is nice, but a fixed amount is less important than the global growth the food gives me.

For me, I am not sure about losing the food surplus even just before the realm divide (or after). You will still have to take provinces that might have very little food output, but might already have large castles and/or markets. Better to be safe and have all the surplus you can without leaving you open in terms of castle defense in critical places and having your 5 metsuke. More than 5 markets will be a waste in any case.

For instance, a surplus of 20 with 15 provinces (waiting period before divide) will give you lots of koku.
My quick calc gives me around 76k koku over 50 turns, using 20% tax and +20 growth per province and considering that Metsuke can compensate for the admin cost, if I use them in the most wealthy provinces. I would like to keep the growth going even after dividde because it allows to keep my tax income going up, which means I can afford a bit of building and units.
I currently am sitting at 1570 with this strategy and my taxes are only 1k koku higher than my unit upkeep.

That 50 seasons should be a reasonable time to have between getting 15 provinces and going for the shogunate (e.g. I get 15 provinces by 1558, and then wait 12'ish years to start end game 1570). 76k koku should be more than all the cost of the farms, considering the initial wealth boost also (Which I did not even count).

[andrewt]

I've been doing that and having all non-troop building provinces eventually just have a market, ninja and temple line. I think I'll eventually drop the ninja line past 5, since the food for the castle upgrade is better than what it gives.

The one that's hard to give up is the temple line. I find arts research to be too slow without using as many of these as possible.

[Zarky]

I've been doing that and having all non-troop building provinces eventually just have a market, ninja and temple line. I think I'll eventually drop the ninja line past 5, since the food for the castle upgrade is better than what it gives.

The one that's hard to give up is the temple line. I find arts research to be too slow without using as many of these as possible.

Very true. In my Uesugi campaign I upgraded temples to the level that gives 10% bonus to chi research, amazing. With the help of some philosophical traditions I neared 200% bonus to chi research. Opting for a temple over sake den can give you some much needed research help especially later on.

[Rothe]

I've been doing that and having all non-troop building provinces eventually just have a market, ninja and temple line. I think I'll eventually drop the ninja line past 5, since the food for the castle upgrade is better than what it gives.

The one that's hard to give up is the temple line. I find arts research to be too slow without using as many of these as possible.

I never upgrade a castle to include a market in a province unless I am at less than 5 markets (I need 5 metsuke). If you capture a province with a level 1 castle + market, I think you are better off tearing down the market and putting a temple there - to upgrade to stronghold and put a temple is basically the same as using a food for the market, which is not really a good idea.

After the realm divide I notice that temples are really useful for keeping the peace. Also, having extra research never hurts and all those +5% bonuses stack up to something significant at the end.

A big surplus of food will just out grow any market or sake den. Sake dens are ok still, because you also avoid garrisoning forces in those provinces because of the happiness effect.

My +26 surplus at 20 provinces in my current game seems to be able to keep me at positive income even if I build more troops slowly.
That is already 520 growth in wealth each turn from food alone, which gives 102 koku per turn cumulative income addition. I am not worried about losing my trade anymore.

[econ21]

I need 5 metsuke.

Just out of interest, why five?

[Rothe]

Just out of interest, why five?

Because you cant get more? 5 is the limit. Read the first post on why you need the 5.

[aimlesswanderer]

5 seems to be the limit for all agents (though may be able to bribe or convert for extra).

[Rothe]

5 seems to be the limit for all agents (though may be able to bribe or convert for extra).

Converting does not give agents over the limit. I have tried several times on enemy Metsuke, and I converted them but did not gain control.