No excuse to not buy a classic.

[Monk]

So I was thinking about TW and how the series progressed when I realized something. I have never played STW-MI. Ever! I bought the original STW and played up to 1.12 but never upgraded and got the expansion, it was something I always felt kinda bad about but never something I felt strongly enough to change. That's when I saw this.

While browsing around looking at deals on the Empire Total war SF ed, i saw Shogun: Warlord Ed(includes original game and expansion), for under 20 dollars! It didn't surprise me when I thought about it, the game's been out 8+ years, but with a price so low there was no way I could pass it up. I splurged on one day delivery and sometime Thursday I'll receive my copy.

For all you vets of the TW era who got in during RTW or MTW, if you never played STW this is a great chance to grab up the title that started it all for a really low price. The graphics aren't flashy, but it's a great buy.

[caravel]

May the enemy flee in terror from your Mongol Horde, may your powder be dry and may the terrain always be favourable.

[AggonyDuck]

It's a great game, if your computer can run it.

[Puzz3D]

So I was thinking about TW and how the series progressed when I realized something. I have never played STW-MI. Ever! I bought the original STW and played up to 1.12 but never upgraded and got the expansion, it was something I always felt kinda bad about but never something I felt strongly enough to change.

The Warlord Edition is poorly balanced.

[Krasturak]

Hey, Yuuki, didn't you make a re-balance version for MI?

If you could post a link, that might embellish your opinion posted above.

[Puzz3D]

Hey, Yuuki, didn't you make a re-balance version for MI?

If you could post a link, that might embellish your opinion posted above.

You can show mathematically that Warlords Edition was poorly balanced, and I am referring to the v1.2 re-balance version. However, it isn't just my opinion because, within one month of release, online participation dropped from over 100 players and increasing on weekends to only 35 players. The re-balance only brought participation up to 45 on weekends, and that number remained static until shortly before MTW was released. I can't post a link because I personally kept track of these participation numbers for myself at the time since I was involved in the re-balance effort and wanted a measure of its success. In addition to that, the SP campaign was harder in the original STW v1.12 than it was in the Warlords Edition.

[Togakure]

One very nice thing about the Warlord edition is that there are several new campaign scenarios (starting in 1530, 1550, 1580 and the Mongol Invasion), which add a lot of interesting playtime to the original game.

I enjoyed WE very much, both SP and MP. It has differences that have been viewed as cons, but I think it's really a matter of personal taste. The troop stat can be modded if you find the balance not to your liking.

After hundreds of hours of playing the original version, I obtained WE and never looked back except for a few comparison tests. I found WE to be better suited for my tastes overall, and a few glaring issues with the original (the endgame "Hojo hordes" issue in particular) were fixed.

***

In regard to the whole MP community thing, my understanding was that folks could still log in and play the original version online, in addition to WE. Why didn't those who didn't like the WE balance just go back to playing original? Perhaps there was more to why the numbers dropped than just the mass disapproval of the new version.

[caravel]

No, AFAIK once the new version was out the servers began running it, this meant that MP players had to move on to the new version. Puzz3D will correct me if I'm wrong.

[Togakure]

Heh, actually yes. That wasn't really a question, Asai Nagamasa/Caravel, and I'll be happy to correct you (I am formerly Togakure O'Jonin). Yuuki is undeniably knowledgeable about such things, but there are others with experience and knowledge here.

On the official STW server at the time that I was active almost daily in MP (2003-2005), I know that if two players had the same version of STW, be it original 1.xx or WE/MI 1.0x and one created a game, the other could see it and join it. It was possible to play either on the server, just as it's possible to play both vanilla MTW and VI on the same official server now. You can still do this on a fakeserver.

[caravel]

Masamune,

Sorry, I didn't realise you were referring to fakeservers, must have misunderstood your post then...

[R'as al Ghul]

Hi Nagamasa,

I think Masamune is saying that as long as two players have the same version (which one doesn't matter, mods also work) they can play a game, whether they are on the official server or on the fakeserver doesn't matter. That's also my experience.

R'as

[caravel]

R'as,

Yes I had gathered that. I had thought that Masamune was referring to the official servers.

Hi Nagamasa,

I think Masamune is saying that as long as two players have the same version (which one doesn't matter, mods also work) they can play a game, whether they are on the official server or on the fakeserver doesn't matter. That's also my experience.

R'as

[R'as al Ghul]

I had thought that Masamune was referring to the official servers.

He was.... I'm confused.

[Togakure]

Hehehe ... ah, conversations on the internet. Sometimes they can be so confusing.

Yeah, on both fakeservers and official TW servers, basically any version can be played. The requirement is that all players wanting to join a hosted game must have the exact same version as the host to join. Otherwise, a message is displayed saying "incompatible version" or something like that. Same goes for the map hosted; if a player doesn't have the hosted map in his installed map set, a "cannot join: message is displayed. Hope that clears things up.

Hey there R'as! Glad to see you around. Hope everything is going well now.

And sorry Asai if I sounded snippy; sometimes I still come across wrong, even when I re-read my posts several times before posting.

[Puzz3D]

Creative Assembly changed the port number for each game. So, if you had STW you didn't see WE/MI games and vica versa. There were even different online rating sites for STW and WE/MI, and a player's rating appeared next to his name in the WE/MI foyer whereas it wasn't shown in STW. Only a few players, such as the Bear clan, stayed with STW while most moved to WE/MI. Most of the players that moved to WE/MI left rather than return to STW because the online community would remain drastically reduced in number since new players would naturally get the new game. WE/MI destroyed the STW community. It was inevitable. Most players move to the newer game regardless of whether it's better or worse. So, you have to hope that the new game is better than the old game or else you are stuck playing the inferior game, and the whole time you are playing the inferior game you remember the better experience of playing the better game.

[Togakure]

Sad, but true. I've never understood that. I'd rather play an older, better game that I like with a small group of friends, than a newer, crappier version of that game with the greater public. Meh, that's why I never played RTW, M2TW and probably won't try ETW, and would still play STW, MTW/VI, and mods like SamWars, SP or online. Running against the grain, as usual.

[Puzz3D]

Masa,

You are right about the Hojo Horde problem in STW v1.12 which I solve by playing a faction within striking distance of Hojo. That limits which factions I can play, but it gains the advantage of playing against the slightly better STW v1.12 tactical AI than the WE/MI v1.02 tactical AI. I also don't have to contend with the unbalanced units such as kensai that were added to WE/MI. Yes you can remove those added units, but very few people who buy WE/MI will bother to do that. The biggest problem in WE/MI is the imbalance of the guns. Muskets are relatively cheap in WE/MI at 250 koku, but so powerful that they should be the most expensive unit in the game. They cost 175 koku in STW but are also much weaker, and they don't shoot in the rain which is actually a mistake but a fortuitous one for the gameplay.

At the time, I paid $30 for STW and it was the best game I ever bought. I paid $40 for WE/MI, and was extremely disappointed that I had to pay more for a game that was inferior in tactical playbalance. Creative Assembly ripped off the American market by refusing to sell the MI expansion (which cost $15) in the USA. STW had unprecedented playbalance for such a complex tactical game, and I thought each subsequent installment released by Creative Assembly would be even better in that regard. However, they not only couldn't maintain the playbalance in subsequent releases, they intentionally relegated tactical playbalance to a low priority. Well, that kills the gameplay experience for me since, being a high rated chess player (chess being an extremely well balanced game with deep tactical play), I'm aware of nuances in the quality of the tactical gameplay.

[Togakure]

I hear ya, Puzz. I did that too in original--took the Hojo out so they couldn't horde. Usually had to take out the Uesugi too as they horded sometimes also.

The most attractive MI/WE feature for me is the added campaign scenarios. I really, really enjoy those. If I get bored of one, I move to another; it added a whole lotta game time for me.

Early on I used guns when playing Single Player WE/MI and yes, they are powerful and cheap. But after the first year of playing I'd had my fill and stopped using them pretty much, preferring to field archers instead. It's too easy to route the AI with guns, and I prefer a faster, more active and aggressive battle (heh). I really don't like to sit and shoot much (though admittedly sometimes it's necessary, particularly in MP against good shooters like that dratted gun lover CBR, gah!).

My campaigns are usually finished long before muskets are available if I start in 1530 (though I'm not nearly as fast as some of these guys who can finish in less than ten game years). Even in the later campaigns I don't often use them unless I decide to play a turtling gun game for kicks (which is rare). I do sometimes use an arquebusier paired with a yari ahsigaru unit and shinobi as garrison because they are cheap, and also sometimes to bolster numbers at a key choke point to discourage attack. But when it comes to a battle, I don't usually select them, and if I do, it's never more than two units. I prefer archers even for bridge battles because their range is superior. Tactics make up for the limited ammo.

Did you find the AI building a lot of guns in WE/MI? I don't see a lot of them in my games, and by the time they show up, they're munchies for my ravenous cavalry. The AI seems to build a ton of archers, YS, monks, and some YC and CA in my games.

In regard to the "fantasy" units, I don't build kensai, and in the majority of the games I've played, neither does the AI. In one scenario, I do use battlefield ninja--1580 Tokugawa, because that faction starts with nine units of them. I group them all together without any other type of unit and use them as a special ops raiding force. The Tokugawa are pinched at the start of that campaign and require careful management and timing to be successful unless the AI does some crazy things with the other factions. I use the ninja in that campaign to raid and draw armies, and to sack provinces for much-needed koku. The AI very rarely builds them, so that's not a big problem as i see it.

I train geishas only to counter the threat of AI geishas. Nowadays the AI rarely gets to that point; we've taken out the opposition before they can develop the infrastructure necessary.

The one MI/WE unit I do use frequently is the Naginata Cav, probably because I got so used to using them in MP. In SP, I don't use them exclusively over Yari Cav, tending to mix in one or two units as reserve for running down routing infantry, with YC and a CA or two for skirmishing and flanking.

I think a good point to make here is that, despite it's weaknesses, a player can adjust his game to compensate for them and still get some great entertainment out of WE/MI, just as you did to handle the horde issue.

CA's emphasis on glitz, overwhelming, unnecessary detail, and distracting variety over solid tactical war-gaming is the primary reason why I haven't bought or played any of it's games after MTW/VI. The shibumi of STW was lost. My imagination is not so weak that I need pretty graphics to stimulate it; I need solid, balanced tactical play in order to enjoy the game. The graphics in STW and MTW/VI were and still are plenty fine for me. I, too, am sorely disappointed in CA's direction, but ... they went where the money is. They didn't get mine, but so many others eat that pretty stuff up. I think a lot of players just want that eye candy and the rush of feeling powerful and skillful. That the game play actually requires much skill or offers much diversity in tactics and strategy is not an issue for today's average gamer, I think.

I paid about $60 for the two versions. I would guess conservatively that I've played 2000 hours of STW since it came out. Considering the cost per hour of entertainment that's quite a bargain in my book, when I stop and think about what I've paid to watch films, over half of which weren't worth the money or time spent. All in all I'm very happy with what I got for my $60.

[ReluctantSamurai]

Puzz....I agree with the spirit of what you are saying, to the extent of modifying troop stats to be as close as they can to the original version. But not having the original version to compare the WE edition to, my opinion is probably of limited value in that respect.

But what Masamune has to say holds true for me.......I've gotten many, many hours of enjoyment out of STW/WE and it was well worth the money I payed for it.

I think the addition of the fantasy units makes for a fun diversion when one gets tired of the same-old, same-old...........I don't normally play with kensei or bfn, and even when playing a 'serious' campaign, I only make judicious use of things like muskets and Nag Cav. They make up only a small portion of my armies in nearly every campaign except for the late Oda Campaign.

All-in-all, if anyone asked me for my opinion to buy or not to buy WE, I'd give them a thumbs up.

Just my 2cents..........

[caravel]

Creative Assembly ripped off the American market by refusing to sell the MI expansion (which cost $15) in the USA.

I didn't know that. So MI was not sold at all in the US?

[Gregoshi]

I didn't know that. So MI was not sold at all in the US?

Yes it was. I bought a copy at Electronics Boutique (Gamestop nowadays), I think, right when it came out. However, it must not have been available for very long before they went to the WE because I can't recall ever seeing MI on the shelves very much at the time.

[Monk]

Yes it was. I bought a copy at Electronics Boutique (Gamestop nowadays), I think, right when it came out. However, it must not have been available for very long before they went to the WE because I can't recall ever seeing MI on the shelves very much at the time.

I remember MI was pulled from retail shelves very quickly, it became impossible to find a short time after it was released.

[Martok]

I didn't know that. So MI was not sold at all in the US?

At the very least, it almost certainly wasn't sold in South Dakota or Minnesota. I visited nearly 20 different game stores in the 2 weeks following MI's release looking for it -- in both Sioux Falls, SD, and all over southern Minnesota (including Mankato, Willmar, Rochester, and Minneapolis-St. Paul) -- and didn't find a single copy. I ended up having to wait until WE was released.

[Puzz3D]

I never saw the MI add-on in the Boston area. I remember paying $40 for WE/MI at Electronics Boutique, and thinking at the time "I'm paying $40 for an add-on when I only paided $30 for the original game.".

SHOGUN TOTAL WAR GOLD EDITION is not the original SHOGUN.

[Puzz3D]

While browsing around looking at deals on the Empire Total war SF ed, i saw Shogun: Warlord Ed(includes original game and expansion), for under 20 dollars!

The Warlord Edition does not contain the original game, and there is no way to restore the original gameplay using the Warlord Edition. The strategic and tactical AI is optimized for the original STW not for the Warlord Edition. There are changes in Warlord Edition at the strategic and tactical levels that the AI is not adapted to handle, and the result is that the AI is a significanty weaker opponent in Warlord Edition than it was in original STW.

[caravel]

the result is that the AI is a significanty weaker opponent in Warlord Edition than it was in original STW.

This is very true. I remember that I started this old thread due to this very issue. The number of people having to play STW/WE(MI) on expert is evidence enough of this also. Personally I sill play with the tweaked stats from that thread on hard difficulty and it makes all the difference.

[Togakure]

Sounds interesting. Wonder how I missed all this back when it was originally posted. Guess it was when I was away from the Org/gaming for a while.

I fired up WE last night for the first time in ages, thinking I might start a campaign report since some prominent reporters here will be diverting to ETW and there was still interest in more reports. But the battles were just too easy, even on Expert, and I got bored quickly.

I'll have to try this. Hopefully these modifications will make the battles against the AI more challenging/entertaining.

[Puzz3D]

Hopefully these modifications will make the battles against the AI more challenging/entertaining.

You'll still get a better challenge with the original STW v1.12 campaign. The reason being that the AI clans can build infrastructure and train units at the maximum rate while you, the player, have to divide your resources between building and training. I started an STW v1.12 Takeda campaign (normal difficulty) last night, and within 6 years the choice between infrastructure and training has already become problematic. I desperately need Takeda Shingen to come of age so that I can engage the AI clans and reduce the size of their armies and take away some of their infrastructure. As I recall, you have to win battles consistently inflicting at least a 2:1 casualty ratio to keep pace. You can't sit back and not attack. You have to risk counterattack by a neutral clan. Making allies reduces a clan's inclination to attack you, so this is an important consideration.

[gollum]

Originally posted by Puzz3D
You'll still get a better challenge with the original STW v1.12 campaign. The reason being that the AI clans can build infrastructure and train units at the maximum rate while you, the player, have to divide your resources between building and training. I started an STW v1.12 Takeda campaign (normal difficulty) last night, and within 6 years the choice between infrastructure and training has already become problematic. I desperately need Takeda Shingen to come of age so that I can engage the AI clans and reduce the size of their armies and take away some of their infrastructure. As I recall, you have to win battles consistently inflicting at least a 2:1 casualty ratio to keep pace. You can't sit back and not attack. You have to risk counterattack by a neutral clan. Making allies reduces a clan's inclination to attack you, so this is an important consideration.

Indeed - There are other reasons too why 1.12 is better strategically.

Firstly that there is no manual pillaging or disbanding so the player cannot "live off" the land (there is still autopillage but does not return you cash - its still very important though because it slows the AI army builds and production infrastructures builds). You also cannot optmise your economy versus the standing army - say if you have built too many armies early you cannot get rid of them and the maintenance cost that goes with them to get the better units (Naginata/teppo/HC) - you are stuck with the early units until you either increase profit (that requires investing funds) or burning the early stacks by making war.

Seondly the buildings costs and build times are twice as much as in WE - this means that every decision you make (particularly early ones) is crucial to the course of the game and your survival. In WE with the smallbuild times and the cheap buildings - building order and building decisions are far less critical - the strategic game is more forgiving as a result and the signigicance of strategic choices and long term strategic vision more blurred - you end up building everything by mid game almost.

However, despite those, v1.12 strategic gameplay is unpopular with rushers and with SP enthusiasts -the very rigor that defines strategy is felt as "lack of good pace" from the first group as they are bored without a constant stream of attacking battles and as "lack of depth" by the second group as they feel restricted by the lack of toy options in the campaign.

Overall the strategic game design in the original wasnt bad. Even the geisha has its place as it makes a hedgehog/last ditch/turtle strategy viable (if another clan has the clear advantage in terms of income and armies can still fight a delay action and try to hit them with the Geisha). Agreed however that it should have been a league less lethal - definitely get killed when fails and have success chances on Daimyos similar to those that Ninjas get on Taishos. Good design - bad implementation imho.

The aspect that is really poorly designed is port transport - it should have been implemented with a transport cost that would be proportional to the distance of the jump and the number of troops transported. As it was implemented it kills off the logistical part of the game in the mid/late game.

Port raiding should have been made impossible its the only clear cheat that that game engine allows.

Bribing with diplomats its also an SP players only addition - from a strategy game design point of view its a bad choice - for example in v1.0 that the emmissaries cannot bribe when all clans are gone you still need to defeat the rebels - in WE you can force them to retreat in castle by attacking with superstacks and then bribe them. In other words the developer instead of making the rebel faction more of a challenge - it made it more of a chore.

Another minor element of WE that was wrong was the command stars banner. It makes emmissaries really superfluous - everyone can see what kind of general he is facing - when in 1.0-1.12 you need to actively scan enemy borders to see what is coming to you.

Similarly the game could benefit by making say the regional loyalty unseen and substitute insight into this information by small shinobi messages.

Additionally guns, shinobies, ninjas, emmissaries could appear in the map rather than recruited andtheir number be tied to the number of buildings they depend on (this approach thankfully is being employed in ETW i read). This would make the agent game more elegant and less bloated - no more shinobi spamming.

Teppos similarly could be "acquired" by trading posts sparingly say teppos enough to man one unit per 4 trading posts. This would make up for the AIs inefficient use and render battles after the advent of teppos as critical as before teppos arrive on the scene. It would also make the gun factory strategically important (it would support say guns for 3 teppo units).

Diplomacy as you mention is meant as a buying time option - and when needed is crucial. This is the only diplomacy that was meaningful in all TW games - yet sadly the developer used the same model and the same AI with it in situations that it didnt apply like Medieval Europe and Classical Antiquity.

[Puzz3D]

Port raiding should have been made impossible its the only clear cheat that that game engine allows.

As I recall, the AI never makes amphibious invasions in STW v1.12. The player can refrain as well thus effectively eliminating them, which is how I always played the campaign. I am guilty of shinobi spamming. I was desperate.

Some players did claim that they could blitz the map and win in a short time, and IIRC there was a screen shot posted showing a quick win. I can't remember any of the details of how it was accomplished.