Don't let your children out at night ... there might be cops about

[Crazed Rabbit]

It has emerged recently that in Galveston, Texas, a terrible assault was perpetrated by police officers a couple years ago.

Apparently four officers got a call about some white prostitutes in an area. So they go to investigate. Some distance from the actual site of the complaint, a breaker goes out in a house and the mother sends her twelve year old daughter out to flip a switch to restore power. The cops are outside and see the girl, who is black.

The cops get out of their vehicle and advance towards the girl, one calling her a prostitute and saying she's going with them. They grab the girl and she starts screaming and resisting and calling for her father.

Did I mention what the cops were wearing yet? Oh, I didn't?

All officers were wearing plainclothes - civilian clothes with no uniform or insignia to identify themselves. They did not show their badges or otherwise identify themselves as police as they attacked the girl. And their vehicle? An unmarked blue van.

So we have a group of men getting out of a van and trying to haul a girl off into the van. As the girl resists, the police cover her mouth and start hitting her. Yes, hitting her; on her head, face, and neck, with their fists and a flashlight. So now we have a bunch of men jumping out of a van and trying to kidnap a girl and beating her.

Her parents come out and apparently the situation deescalates a bit, though the parents are forbidden from comforting their beaten child. They learn the cops were looking for three white prostitutes in a different area. No arrests occur, and the parents take their child to the emergency room where her multiple injuries are treated.

Several weeks later, the child is arrested while at school for assaulting a public servant. This seems to be a common tactic for police to cover their tracks by trying to gain leverage against a person who might sue them, by forcing the victims to spend resources defending themselves. A mistrial is declared on the first day and a retrial has not been scheduled.

Now the family is suing the police officers involved.

News story here: http://blogs.houstonpress.com/hairba...lse_arrest.php

Report about the lawsuit here: http://www.courthousenews.com/2008/0...at_Girl_12.htm

PDF of actual lawsuit here: http://www.courthousenews.com/2008/0...vestonCops.pdf

It is a shame the father didn't have a good gun handy.

I won't go on about the audacity of the police here - the events speak for themselves. But I'll say that it isn't the fact that these events occur that make me angry so much as the fact that nothing is ever done about them. Cops can kill innocent people and as long as they don't botch planting of the drugs on the bodies they can get away with it. The city and the department internal review will always find the officer's actions appropriate (as they did in this very case). We need some way to dispense justice (perhaps some elected county police overseer who can not have been an officer or prosecutor who can strip immunity and fire cops who violate the law or rights of people). Whatever the solution, continuing to allow this to occur without severe punishment will only increase the list of civilian victims.

Yes, there are good, honest cops of course. But because of the police culture we have in this country, cops hardly ever testify against one another - the whole brotherhood idea. In my view, good cops who do not speak out about injustice they witness are not good cops. Refusing to speak out, for whatever reason, especially a sense of police brotherhood, is akin to being neutral in a crisis. And I recall hearing something about a special place in the afterlife for such people.

You know, seeing the protests in Greece, I don't admire the anarchists using it as an excuse to go on a rampage. But good things can be said for standing up and making a government fear its people.

Crazed Rabbit

[ICantSpellDawg]

It has emerged recently that in Galveston, Texas, a terrible assault was perpetrated by police officers a couple years ago.

Apparently four officers got a call about some white prostitutes in an area. So they go to investigate. Some distance from the actual site of the complaint, a breaker goes out in a house and the mother sends her twelve year old daughter out to flip a switch to restore power. The cops are outside and see the girl, who is black.

The cops get out of their vehicle and advance towards the girl, one calling her a prostitute and saying she's going with them. They grab the girl and she starts screaming and resisting and calling for her father.

Did I mention what the cops were wearing yet? Oh, I didn't?

All officers were wearing plainclothes - civilian clothes with no uniform or insignia to identify themselves. They did not show their badges or otherwise identify themselves as police as they attacked the girl. And their vehicle? An unmarked blue van.

So we have a group of men getting out of a van and trying to haul a girl off into the van. As the girl resists, the police cover her mouth and start hitting her. Yes, hitting her; on her head, face, and neck, with their fists and a flashlight. So now we have a bunch of men jumping out of a van and trying to kidnap a girl and beating her.

Her parents come out and apparently the situation deescalates a bit, though the parents are forbidden from comforting their beaten child. They learn the cops were looking for three white prostitutes in a different area. No arrests occur, and the parents take their child to the emergency room where her multiple injuries are treated.

Several weeks later, the child is arrested while at school for assaulting a public servant. This seems to be a common tactic for police to cover their tracks by trying to gain leverage against a person who might sue them, by forcing the victims to spend resources defending themselves. A mistrial is declared on the first day and a retrial has not been scheduled.

Now the family is suing the police officers involved.

News story here: http://blogs.houstonpress.com/hairba...lse_arrest.php

Report about the lawsuit here: http://www.courthousenews.com/2008/0...at_Girl_12.htm

PDF of actual lawsuit here: http://www.courthousenews.com/2008/0...vestonCops.pdf

It is a shame the father didn't have a good gun handy.

I won't go on about the audacity of the police here - the events speak for themselves. But I'll say that it isn't the fact that these events occur that make me angry so much as the fact that nothing is ever done about them. Cops can kill innocent people and as long as they don't botch planting of the drugs on the bodies they can get away with it. The city and the department internal review will always find the officer's actions appropriate (as they did in this very case). We need some way to dispense justice (perhaps some elected county police overseer who can not have been an officer or prosecutor who can strip immunity and fire cops who violate the law or rights of people). Whatever the solution, continuing to allow this to occur without severe punishment will only increase the list of civilian victims.

Yes, there are good, honest cops of course. But because of the police culture we have in this country, cops hardly ever testify against one another - the whole brotherhood idea. In my view, good cops who do not speak out about injustice they witness are not good cops. Refusing to speak out, for whatever reason, especially a sense of police brotherhood, is akin to being neutral in a crisis. And I recall hearing something about a special place in the afterlife for such people.

You know, seeing the protests in Greece, I don't admire the anarchists using it as an excuse to go on a rampage. But good things can be said for standing up and making a government fear its people.

Crazed Rabbit

That is insane. That poor girl.

[Tribesman]

It is a shame the father didn't have a good gun handy.

Yeah , then you could write about the poor little orphan whose daddy got killed by 4 armed men
I must say I am surprised though , the police didn't shoot the dog when it attacked them

[Hosakawa Tito]

Yeah , then you could write about the poor little orphan whose daddy got killed by 4 armed men
I must say I am surprised though , the police didn't shoot the dog when it attacked them

Maybe they're dog lovers at heart...

[seireikhaan]

Absolutely disgusting. That something like this can occur and not be punished is nothing short of outrageous. I like CR's idea of a local county police overseer. Unfortunately, I'm not really sure how on earth to keep that position from the influence of the police themselves. I'm sure there's plenty of police that have plenty of spare "sting" money to ensure their positions.

[Crazed Rabbit]

Yeah , then you could write about the poor little orphan whose daddy got killed by 4 armed men

The girl has a mother - didn't you read the story?

I must say I am surprised though , the police didn't shoot the dog when it attacked them

Yes, rather odd - they actually gave a warning.

In seriousness, fighting back against four armed men, even if you had the element of surprise, is a dangerous prospect. But I can't help but think that if such jackbooted agents met with more such resistance we would see a drop in such tactics. Unfortunately, the tree of liberty must be fertilized with the blood of good men and tyrants from time to time.

CR

[Tristuskhan]

http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brigade...iminalit%C3%A9 (sorry , I have no translation)

Those men clearly deserve to enter the french Police.

[Tribesman]

The girl has a mother - didn't you read the story?

errrrrr.....

[CountArach]

This is utterly sickening and I agree with everything you said, except the bit about the gun. You even admitted it yourself that the situation de-escalated after the father came out - why would escalating it be any better?

[Husar]

This is utterly sickening and I agree with everything you said, except the bit about the gun. You even admitted it yourself that the situation de-escalated after the father came out - why would escalating it be any better?

Pretty much.
I also absolutely don't like those brotherhood attitudes as they stop people from being honest, especially in the police force I find that very undesirable. Nothing bad about supporting one another as long as everybody actually does their job.

[Slyspy]

It has emerged recently that in Galveston, Texas, a terrible assault was perpetrated by police officers a couple years ago.

Apparently four officers got a call about some white prostitutes in an area. So they go to investigate. Some distance from the actual site of the complaint, a breaker goes out in a house and the mother sends her twelve year old daughter out to flip a switch to restore power. The cops are outside and see the girl, who is black.

The cops get out of their vehicle and advance towards the girl, one calling her a prostitute and saying she's going with them. They grab the girl and she starts screaming and resisting and calling for her father.

Did I mention what the cops were wearing yet? Oh, I didn't?

All officers were wearing plainclothes - civilian clothes with no uniform or insignia to identify themselves. They did not show their badges or otherwise identify themselves as police as they attacked the girl. And their vehicle? An unmarked blue van.

So we have a group of men getting out of a van and trying to haul a girl off into the van. As the girl resists, the police cover her mouth and start hitting her. Yes, hitting her; on her head, face, and neck, with their fists and a flashlight. So now we have a bunch of men jumping out of a van and trying to kidnap a girl and beating her.

Her parents come out and apparently the situation deescalates a bit, though the parents are forbidden from comforting their beaten child. They learn the cops were looking for three white prostitutes in a different area. No arrests occur, and the parents take their child to the emergency room where her multiple injuries are treated.

Several weeks later, the child is arrested while at school for assaulting a public servant. This seems to be a common tactic for police to cover their tracks by trying to gain leverage against a person who might sue them, by forcing the victims to spend resources defending themselves. A mistrial is declared on the first day and a retrial has not been scheduled.

Now the family is suing the police officers involved.

News story here: http://blogs.houstonpress.com/hairba...lse_arrest.php

Report about the lawsuit here: http://www.courthousenews.com/2008/0...at_Girl_12.htm

PDF of actual lawsuit here: http://www.courthousenews.com/2008/0...vestonCops.pdf

It is a shame the father didn't have a good gun handy.

I won't go on about the audacity of the police here - the events speak for themselves. But I'll say that it isn't the fact that these events occur that make me angry so much as the fact that nothing is ever done about them. Cops can kill innocent people and as long as they don't botch planting of the drugs on the bodies they can get away with it. The city and the department internal review will always find the officer's actions appropriate (as they did in this very case). We need some way to dispense justice (perhaps some elected county police overseer who can not have been an officer or prosecutor who can strip immunity and fire cops who violate the law or rights of people). Whatever the solution, continuing to allow this to occur without severe punishment will only increase the list of civilian victims.

Yes, there are good, honest cops of course. But because of the police culture we have in this country, cops hardly ever testify against one another - the whole brotherhood idea. In my view, good cops who do not speak out about injustice they witness are not good cops. Refusing to speak out, for whatever reason, especially a sense of police brotherhood, is akin to being neutral in a crisis. And I recall hearing something about a special place in the afterlife for such people.

You know, seeing the protests in Greece, I don't admire the anarchists using it as an excuse to go on a rampage. But good things can be said for standing up and making a government fear its people.

Crazed Rabbit

I hope that the law suit against the police succeeds. Certainly there is also an unhealthy tendancy of officialdom to close ranks over incidents like this. We can see it in action over here with the De Menezes shooting.

But your take on the story seems a little bizarre. I don't see how "It is a shame the father didn't have a good gun handy". As has been said already, I doubt that this would have resulted in "Her parents come out and apparently the situation deescalates a bit" or, if policemen however off the rails got shot, how it would then have ended with "A mistrial is declared on the first day and a retrial has not been scheduled".

Further, anybody using a phrase like "Unfortunately, the tree of liberty must be fertilized with the blood of good men and tyrants from time to time." worries me. The quote is from Jefferson I think? I can't shake the feeling that such people are unlikely to actually want to do the fertilizing themselves.

[Tristuskhan]

Such cases are so common here in France that I'm just a bit surprised with your astonishment. Recently a young man got badly mauled by three men of the french police, for no reason (the scene was filmed by a neighbour). The next day he was charged for assaulting authority, since one of the cops had supposedly a finger broken. They dared.

I bet if those methods also become usual in your countries, you'll all learn how to hate the police.

[Ice]

Yeah , then you could write about the poor little orphan whose daddy got killed by 4 armed men
I must say I am surprised though , the police didn't shoot the dog when it attacked them

That's actually what I thought. Somehow I think trying to use a gun against four, racist police officers would have turned out poorly for both parties.

It is a shame this did happen though.

[Tribesman]

Last edited by Banquo's Ghost; Today at 09:14. Reason: Edited unnecessary provocation

What is provocative about a dictionary definition ?
Hey , there is nothing provocative in suggesting someone needs a dictionary when they make an issue over a word they clearly didn't know the meaning of .

[Crazed Rabbit]

Sean Stewart, one of the cops who took part in this attack, was given an award for "Officer of the Year" this June: (Page 5 of this 24 page PDF)

You even admitted it yourself that the situation de-escalated after the father came out - why would escalating it be any better?

These incidents will continue to occur until the cops get incentives not to engage in such activities. If they knew they'd get shot at while pulling this unconstitutional, unlawful crap, they'd be much more likely to just walk up and talk to people instead of doing this or no-knock raids. Sadly, innocent people would die. But innocent people are dying right now from extreme police tactics with no punishment for the cops from the law - just reviews that always clear them of wrongdoing.

So I think that escalation could serve to provide disincentives for cops committing these unconstitutional actions. There are consequences, of course. But these police tactics are getting worse and worse. People - mostly poor - are suffering more. Escalation would mean standing up to this sort of unlawful action, and putting a stop to it by making cops not want to use these extreme tactics. I think it would overall save more lives in the long run. That would be sore comfort to the loved ones of those who got killed by the cops, though.

I can't shake the feeling that such people are unlikely to actually want to do the fertilizing themselves.

Heh. I am mainly outraged by these assaults on our rights, but another reason I want this to stop is because if cops break into my house at night on a no-knock raid I'll probably end up dead like that poor grandma in Atlanta (Since in the US, cops generally tend to break down a door and run in and not identify themselves as police when executing a no-knock raid).

Heck, some police departments have taken concealed pistol licenses as an excuse to send SWAT teams bursting into people's homes in the middle of the night for non-violent crimes. That itself defies reality - you have someone (the person with the CPL) who submitted to background checks and fingerprinting voluntarily at a police station and so the cops think the best way to arrest him is not just to send some cops knocking on his door in the day but to bust in at night. There would be so much less violence if the cops in such situations would not treat everything as a shoot out at the OK Corral. But instead the cops are looking for ways to escalate the situation. They need to learn two can play that game.

We need real legal binds against such police actions - some independent elected investigator who can fire cops and remove immunity. Or some other way of extracting justice.

CR

[Xiahou]

Yes, there are good, honest cops of course. But because of the police culture we have in this country, cops hardly ever testify against one another - the whole brotherhood idea. In my view, good cops who do not speak out about injustice they witness are not good cops. Refusing to speak out, for whatever reason, especially a sense of police brotherhood, is akin to being neutral in a crisis. And I recall hearing something about a special place in the afterlife for such people

That's the real issue. There will always be corrupt, evil people in all walks of life. The problem grows out of control when you have law-abiding people covering up their wrongdoings out of a misplaced sense of loyalty.

[Banquo's Ghost]

These incidents will continue to occur until the cops get incentives not to engage in such activities. If they knew they'd get shot at while pulling this unconstitutional, unlawful crap, they'd be much more likely to just walk up and talk to people instead of doing this or no-knock raids. Sadly, innocent people would die. But innocent people are dying right now from extreme police tactics with no punishment for the cops from the law - just reviews that always clear them of wrongdoing.
....

Heck, some police departments have taken concealed pistol licenses as an excuse to send SWAT teams bursting into people's homes in the middle of the night for non-violent crimes. That itself defies reality - you have someone (the person with the CPL) who submitted to background checks and fingerprinting voluntarily at a police station and so the cops think the best way to arrest him is not just to send some cops knocking on his door in the day but to bust in at night. There would be so much less violence if the cops in such situations would not treat everything as a shoot out at the OK Corral. But instead the cops are looking for ways to escalate the situation. They need to learn two can play that game.

You argue very effectively against yourself.

If the citizen escalates by becoming armed, the police will assume the worse and come overwhelmingly armed - just as you write in the second paragraph. In an extreme example, knowing that those slightly potty fellows in the Waco compound were armed did not encourage the police to knock politely and engage in civil discussion. They brought tanks.

The issue, as in many countries, is unaccountable police forces encouraged by politicians to over-ride human rights for the "greater good". By removing rights first from the despised "other" - unopposed by the majority who didn't care since it didn't affect them - they now feel empowered to impose actions which most assuredly do affect the "ordinary" citizen - and they have no power to change things. "I told you so" tends to be uttered wearily by those who long since warned of this ancient pattern.

The police are servants of the law and the people. The people must be sovereign and their rights upheld. It is government's role to hold public servants to account and to preserve the rights of Man at all costs. That's rights for all.

[Tribesman]

There would be so much less violence if the cops in such situations would not treat everything as a shoot out at the OK Corral.

So the answer is to make the police approach everything like it is a shootout at the OK Corral

Heck, some police departments have taken concealed pistol licenses as a bloody good reason to send SWAT teams bursting into people's homes

[Xiahou]

I just caught this bit at the end of the story:

This is from the officers' lawyer, William Helfand:

Both the daughter and the father were arrested for assaulting a peace officer. "The father basically attacked police officers as they were trying to take the daughter into custody after she ran off."

Also, "The city has investigated the matter and found that the conduct of the police officers was appropriate under the circumstances," Helfand says. "It's unfortunate that sometimes police officers have to use force against people who are using force against them. And the evidence will show that both these folks violated the law and forcefully resisted arrest."

You have to wonder what world Helfand lives in where it's resisting arrest to try and save your young daughter from being dragged into an unmarked van by strange men. What on earth should his response have been?

[Tribesman]

You have to wonder what world Helfand lives

Errrrrrrr...its the real world , have you ever considered visiting ?
Perhaps I should repeat and elaborate the message sent to Strike a while back.
Don't take **** from no-one , unless they have a badge and you do not have a cast iron case and a bloody good lawyer , if any of the conditions are not made then take the **** given and hope that your good lawyer will prevent too severe a punishment......unless of course you are not at your address and can do the deed and get away without them finding you again (multiple passports and many names are a good insurance there)

But anyways I have to laugh once again at some other poster whos approach is that if guns are the problem then guns are the answer , but if guns are not the answer then guns are the answer....it would probably extend to if guns are not in the equation then guns are the answer .

I have to ask Rabbit , is that SWAT story the one where you saw about some person with guns who was reported as barricading herself into her home and acting crazy by her neighbours that you read as "Police barricade charity giver into her home because she had guns"?

Sometimes you just make it too easy

You argue very effectively against yourself.

[Alexander the Pretty Good]

unless they have a badge

Part of the problem (beyond the officers' incompetence) was they were in plainclothes and in an unmarked van and failed to identify themselves, was it not? That's what's laid out in the lawsuit pdf. If that's how it happened can't you see some wrong-doing in the policemen's action? Or does possession of a badge absolve one of all guilt?

[Crazed Rabbit]

You argue very effectively against yourself.

If the citizen escalates by becoming armed, the police will assume the worse and come overwhelmingly armed - just as you write in the second paragraph. In an extreme example, knowing that those slightly potty fellows in the Waco compound were armed did not encourage the police to knock politely and engage in civil discussion. They brought tanks.

That was only at the end of the siege. In the beginning the ATF and other agencies wanted to put on a big show, so they stormed the place with guns thinking they could look great on TV. But they were unprepared for real resistance from the compound (I believe some government forces ran out of ammunition). They could have just arrested the leader when he was outside of the compound, but they did not.

A counter example is some income tax protesters in Vermont or New Hampshire who had holed themselves up in their house with some supporters a year or two back. The authorities managed to arrest them without a fight through some trickery - because they knew the protesters were armed and ready for a fight. So the authorities - what a novel concept - avoided a potentially dangerous position. It was the fact that authorities knew the protesters were armed that caused them to avoid a direct confrontation.


Police forces around the nation have military equipment, sometimes even armored vehicles. The police have already become overwhelmingly armed. These are not confrontations when police burst into houses at night - they are incidents of men with guns oppressing and bullying people. They already prepare for huge incidents and seemingly pursue them.

The police use legal gun ownership (and a willingness to submit your fingerprints and a background check) as an excuse to send in the SWAT team - the same SWAT team they send looking for busts in minor drug possession cases. The police don't use gun ownership as an excuse to send in a more heavily armed assault team than what they send after suspected drug users - they use it as an excuse to send the assault team instead of knocking on the door with a warrant.*

The only seeming difference between military forces in Iraq who were breaking into homes looking for terrorists and police looking to bust people for minor drug possession is the color of the uniforms - and that the military was more likely to apologize if they broke down the wrong door.


I think the enthusiasm of police forces to look and act like special military forces would severely diminish if all of these raids became more what the police prepared for - armed confrontations - instead of a mass of armed men breaking into homes of frightened families. Right now we have a bunch of men trying to act macho and tough breaking into family's homes. I think they would be much more reluctant to face real danger, and more inclined to settle things in a non-confrontational manner.

This is, of course, only one avenue to ending these injustices besides restoring constitutional protections and legislating some real oversight and punishment of police violations of rights.

The issue, as in many countries, is unaccountable police forces encouraged by politicians to over-ride human rights for the "greater good". By removing rights first from the despised "other" - unopposed by the majority who didn't care since it didn't affect them - they now feel empowered to impose actions which most assuredly do affect the "ordinary" citizen - and they have no power to change things. "I told you so" tends to be uttered wearily by those who long since warned of this ancient pattern.

The police are servants of the law and the people. The people must be sovereign and their rights upheld. It is government's role to hold public servants to account and to preserve the rights of Man at all costs. That's rights for all.

I don't know if I would completely agree with the first paragraph, but I do agree with the second.

*Speaking of warrants, a big cause behind all this is the SCOTUS agreeing to bend over for police forces on the issue of the fourth amendment. So the constitutional protections avenue is FUBAR for the foreseeable future.

CR

[Tribesman]

This is, of course, only one avenue to ending these injustices besides restoring constitutional protections

The government is afraid of the guns people have because they have to have control of the people at all times. Once you take away the guns, you can do anything to the people. You give them an inch and they take a mile. I believe we are slowly turning into a socialist government. The government is continually growing bigger and more powerful, and the people need to prepare to defend themselves against government control.

It is a lie if we tell ourselves that the police can protect us everywhere at all times.

Who's who?

[Mooks]

They are called "pigs" for a reason.

[Louis VI the Fat]

Pigs!

Armed citizens with issues about government brutality. God bless America!

I love your threads about police brutality CR.

[Tribesman]

Armed citizens with issues about government brutality. God bless America!

Hello Timothy

[Mooks]

Armed citizens with issues about government brutality. God bless America!

I love your threads about police brutality CR.

Nevermind the police brutality, the majority of them are still pigs. They spy on people, bust into people's home's, steal their stuff, kidnap them and throw them in prison on a daily basis.

Before you accuse me of hating cops, I could be much much worse. One of my friends had his cousin and his best friend shot and killed by cops (different occasions). They only thing they did to me was throw the only person I ever looked up too in jail (hes in their right now).

[Tribesman]

One of my friends had his cousin and his best friend shot and killed by cops

What did they do ?

They only thing they did to me was throw the only person I ever looked up too in jail

What did he do ?

[CountArach]

These incidents will continue to occur until the cops get incentives not to engage in such activities. If they knew they'd get shot at while pulling this unconstitutional, unlawful crap, they'd be much more likely to just walk up and talk to people instead of doing this or no-knock raids.

That's BS. They had no way of knowing if there were armed people around or not. Your Constitution says people may carry guns - how could the cops possibly know that everyone around them was unarmed? Utter BS. The threat of retaliatory violence isn't worth anything - Australia has very restrictive gun laws and we get far fewer cases of police brutality (Though Melbourne is getting a lot of problems with over-use of Tasers). The problem is letting the police remain armed.

[Mooks]

What did they do ?

What did he do ?

His cousin got off his medication for a little bit, walked around his neighborhood stark naked. Completely looney. The cops rolled up, one of them messed with him and he somehow managed to grab his nightstick and was walking around with it. Cops shot him. Media either said he attacked them or was charging at them with the nightstick. Both stories are complete lies, and even if they arent they shot a naked guy with a nightstick wtf. He showed me all the news reports of youtube, but I forgot the titles.

Not sure about his best friend.

The only person who I ever looked up too, who taught me alot of what I know. He was trying to get money for his business and his house was raided last week by narcotics (I wont elaborate). If your interested http://www.myspace.com/dynamicalg .