First they Came For The Racists

[Strike For The South]

Recently a group of young men affiliated with the Sigma Alpha Epsilon fraternity drunkenly chanted nigger on a bus.

Will someone explain to me how a public university can expel these students?

[Greyblades]

How they can or how they won't?

[Strike For The South]

They already have

[Greyblades]

Huh... need caffeine.

Because the university is a private organisation and with the right contract details not read can kick out anyone they want?

[Strike For The South]

In what realm is the university of Oklahoma a private organization

[Hooahguy]

Well its not just that they were chanting a racist term, they were also chanting about lynching. Now they cant be prosecuted because of the 1st Amendment, but I wonder if theres a section on prohibiting hate speech in the university rules. One might even argue that the chanting was threatening since it was talking about lynching, so does the university have the right to kick out students who are seen as threatening other students?

[a completely inoffensive name]

In what realm is the university of Oklahoma a private organization

In all honesty, I took it as fact that even public universities can dismiss students at their discretion as a stipulation of accepting you in the first place. I'm probably wrong about that though.

[Greyblades]

In what realm is the university of Oklahoma a private organization

America's health care, government and courts are largely privatised. It wouldn't surprise me at this point to see state universities added to that list.

[Rhyfelwyr]

No educational institution/employer, whether public or private should be able to expel/fire people because of their personal beliefs.

[a completely inoffensive name]

America's health care, government and courts are largely privatised. It wouldn't surprise me at this point to see state universities added to that list.

Government is not largely privatized. Courts are not privatized, some prisons are. What trash Brit papers are you reading?

[Hooahguy]

No educational institution/employer, whether public or private should be able to expel/fire people because of their personal beliefs.

Even when those stated beliefs are threatening to other students? If I was a black student at that university I would feel very unsafe since those frat guys were pretty much endorsing the lynching of black people.

[Greyblades]

Government is not largely privatized. Courts are not privatized, some prisons are. What trash Brit papers are you reading?

I was making a dig at how a lot of your politicians and judges are owned by corporate interests to an extent even more blatant than ours are

[a completely inoffensive name]

Fair enough

[Rhyfelwyr]

Even when those stated beliefs are threatening to other students? If I was a black student at that university I would feel very unsafe since those frat guys were pretty much endorsing the lynching of black people.

I couldn't make out all the words, but if there were no direct calls for violence, and the language wasn't directed at somebody with the intention of offending/intimidating them, then they were simply individuals expressing personal (if distasteful) beliefs.

Free speech has to be for everyone, even racists.

[Hooahguy]

You can hang him from a tree
But he’ll never sign with me

While not a direct threat its definitely threatening language.

The 1st Amendment might protect one against legal proceedings, but it does not protect one against all repercussions.

But looking at the statements from the university, it does seem that they were expelled solely for the racist elements of their speech, which would constitute a violation of their 1st Amendment rights.

[Rhyfelwyr]

While not a direct threat its definitely threatening language.

The 1st Amendment might protect one against legal proceedings, but it does not protect one against all repercussions.

But looking at the statements from the university, it does seem that they were expelled solely for the racist elements of their speech, which would constitute a violation of their 1st Amendment rights.

Ah, OK, I didn't hear that, that changes things. I will re-ponder this...

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

Technically a university is a Guild, Guilds can expel members (students) for bringing the Guild into disrepute. If you dig through the university statutes you will find something to that effect.

Basically - the university can kick you out for being jerks.

I'm OK with that

[Beskar]

I could have gotten kicked out of mine if I was posting something racist on twitter. Universities do have these policies to protect other students and their reputation.

This is not only at Universities either, there are the police, the NHS, civil service, and a great many public institutions which have similar policies.

[Papewaio]

Recently a group of young men affiliated with the Sigma Alpha Epsilon fraternity drunkenly chanted nigger on a bus.
Will someone explain to me how a public university can expel these students?

First the racists came for the people of colour, then they came for the ones who stood up for them and then the rest were herded up.

I think you are quoting the wrong side of the issue here. The racists foster an environment of hate that allows the like of KKK/neo-Nazi's and other hate groups to operate. The university is going head on against that, so they are in fact stopping the 'First they came for xyz'.

The university has a duty of care to its students and staff. I'm sure that someone stating they will lynch someone using a racist slur falls into one of if not many categories that would be written up as conduct that can get you expelled.

On top of that any endowments be they federal, state or private may be lost if they let the behaviour continue as it would be seen as providing a haven for racism.

tl;dr

Its the 2010's man, no longer do you get told by a racist where to sit on a bus, instead the racist on the bus now gets kicked off. Same applies to university.

[Seamus Fermanagh]

Those students, as part of the application to the university, signed an agreement to abide by the rules of the university -- which almost certainly included a statement of zero tolerance for racism.

They signed the contract and thus and therewith made themselves subject to the policies of the university and any sanctions designed to enforce same.


So, Strike, your real argument is whether any taxpayer-funded university has a right to restrict free speech that is not a direct incitement to violence even where such free speech is against the beliefs of the vast bulk of the university community and the citizens of the polity that fund it.

[Gilrandir]

No educational institution/employer, whether public or private should be able to expel/fire people because of their personal beliefs.

What about being able to HIRE/ACCEPT people because if their personal beliefs?

Basically - the university can kick you out for being jerks.

Giving this very reason for kicking out?

[a completely inoffensive name]

So, Strike, your real argument is whether any taxpayer-funded university has a right to restrict free speech that is not a direct incitement to violence even where such free speech is against the beliefs of the vast bulk of the university community and the citizens of the polity that fund it.

It kind of goes back to the purpose of a university. If the purpose of a university isn't to allow ideas of all quality to battle for the minds of students, well then we need to establish what exactly this new purpose is.

EDIT: On the other hand this clearly isn't a statement for educational purposes or defense but a private moment among a fraternity, which only exists on campus on the whim of the university in the first place.

[Fragony]

If they call for lynching that's a criminal act

[Montmorency]

First they came for the non-nuggets...

Then they came for the nuggets...

THE DEATH OF GOD IS THE DEATH OF MAN FUCK N********

[Crandar]

As long as the university has the right to expel any student with an attitude that the university considers inappropriate, I have no problem with it. Even here, my university can expel whomever it wants, without needing to give an explanation at all.

In what concerns the moral aspect, each of us has his own creteria, but personally I applaud the university for its decision. The education system needs a bit more discipline and severity, in order to be as efficient as it was 40 years ago.

A similar incident in Canada:

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/nova-s...ants-1.2890938

[CrossLOPER]

The education system needs a bit more discipline and severity, in order to be as efficient as it was 40 years ago.

You mean exactly like it was in the video?

[Major Robert Dump]

School code of conduct. Just like a workplace has a code of conduct. And state and federal funds may be tied to those codes of conduct. May not like it, but it is what it is.

The ringleaders were the ones expelled, which leads me to believe this was probably a chant that people were not all doing voluntarily. I would have reported it as well if I was forced to participate. It is obviously an old, old chant

Their lives have not been ruined by the expulsion. Their lives have been ruined by having a distinctly lacking sense of self preservation in the digital age. A bus full of people is not the place to have a reasonable expectation of privacy. Maybe they can do a sitcom with alec Baldwin and Mel Gibson.

What does, however, appall me are the number of liberal commenters on HuffPo articles who want the kids charged with hate crimes. Now that is effing stupid

[Crandar]

You mean exactly like it was in the video?

Sorry, I didn't make myself clear; I was speaking about our education system, not that of America, and 40 years ago, I doubt anybody had ever seen a black person, so racism against blacks was inexistent.
On the other hand, going to church every Sunday was mandatory...

[Montmorency]

I doubt anybody had ever seen a black person, so racism against blacks was inexistent.

Quite the contrary, interestingly.

[Montmorency]

Interesting thought experiment:

Imagine a serious racist who sees all "Negroes" as subhuman.

Now what happens if that person has a bestiality fetish?