Why is There Death and Suffering if God is all Loving

[total relism]

Slavery in the Bible?

Hebrew servitude in biblical times was very different from the slavery that was practiced in the past few centuries in many parts of the world. 1/2 to 2/3 of white immigrants to America in colonial times served as indentured servants or biblical slavery. The slavery in the Bible was not based on race. People were not enslaved because of their nationality or the color of their skin. In Bible times, slavery was more a matter of social status. People sold themselves as slaves when they could not pay their debts or provide for their families. In New Testament times, sometimes doctors, lawyers, and even politicians were slaves of someone else. Some people actually chose to be slaves so as to have all their needs provided for by their masters. In addition, both the Old and New Testaments condemn the practice of “man-stealing” which is what happened in Africa and the slave trade. Africans were rounded up by slave-hunters, who sold them to slave-traders, who brought them to the New World to work on plantations and farms. This practice is abhorrent to God. In fact, the penalty for such a crime in the Mosaic Law was death: “Anyone who kidnaps another and either sells him or still has him when he is caught must be put to death” (Exodus 21:16). Similarly, in the New Testament, slave-traders are listed among those who are “ungodly and sinful” and are in the same category as those who kill their fathers or mothers, murderers, adulterers and perverts, and liars and perjurers 1 Timothy 1:8-10. Biblical servitude was also a form of welfare.

“If the Those people who were very financially irresponsible, and had accumulated so much debt that they could not possibly pay it off, could request to become the slave of a wealthy individual (Leviticus 25:39; Genesis 47:19).if the wealthy individual agreed, he would pay off all the person’s debts and provide for him, and then the servant would work for the individual for some period of time apparently proportional to the amount of debt (Leviticus 25:50) but not to exceed seven years (Exodus 21:2; Deuteronomy 15:12). When the period of time had expired, the servant was set free, and the wealthy person was required to give him enough start up supplies so that he could begin his own business (Deuteronomy 15:13-14). The Israelite slave was to be treated respectfully (Leviticus 25:43) and was immediately granted freedom if mistreated (Exodus 21:26–27).It’s really a very generous system. Help a financially irresponsible person to become responsible by (1) paying off his debts and providing for him, (2) training him by having him work for a period of time, (3) giving him sufficient startup capital to start his own business. It’s not quite what most people think, is it? I would suggest that the biblical system is far superior to our modern welfare system.
-Jason Lisle are Gods laws to Harsh?

The Bible teaches all are created equal slave and free [Galatians 3.28 Ephesians 6.8 6.9 Colossians 3.11] Job 31 13-15 shows servants and masters are no different from each other. Courts were to rule fairly with Jew or gentile slave Deuteronomy 1 16-17. The servitude period was no longer than 6 years [ex 21.2 Deuteronomy 15.12] and a slave could buy his freedom at any point that he had enough money. when a slave was freed, he was to receive gifts to enable him to survive economically Deuteronomy 15.14. Slaves were to be treated as being hired from year to year, and were not to be ruled over ruthlessly Lev 25 53-54. In Deuteronomy 15 13-14 it says when a slave is released, the more money and wealth the former owner gives to the slave, the more god will bless them Deuteronomy 15.18. No physical harm was to be done to a slave or they would be let go ex 21 26-27. If a master kills a slave he is to be put to death ex 21.20.The bible tells owners to take care of “slaves” so they will be as sons. Sounds more like adoption.

21 He who pampers his servant from childhood
Will have him as a son in the end.
Proverbs 29.21

In Exodus 21. 5-6 says “But if the servant declares, ‘I love my master and my wife and children and do not want to go free,’ 6 then his master must take him before the judges.[a] He shall take him to the door or the doorpost and pierce his ear with an awl. Then he will be his servant for life. This is not at all what we think of in America as slavery. Jesus is refereed to as a slave as is the apostle Paul. If anyone has a job they work under someone else and for them and can be considered a slave. A great book in the bible of what OT slavery/servant hood was like is the book of Ruth. Boaz marries his slave/ Ruth. 1 chronicles 2 34-35 sheshan gave his daughter in marriage to his Egyptian servant jarha.

Was Servitude ideal?

There were many biblical laws existed to prevent this form of servitude in the first place. Many laws that help the poor. In Deuteronomy 15 1-18 it shows slavery and poverty were to be battled against and not preferred institutions. Israel was commanded to offer safe havens for foreigners run away slaves Deuteronomy 23 15-16. Many of the laws are case laws, such as if a man sells his daughter in slavery if two man quarrel etc these are working with inferred conditions in ancient near east. The OT laws are not Gods perfect plan,but for a specific time and people coming from a ancient near eastern culture Matt 19.8. we cannot apply today's western standards to OT near eastern Jews. OT law is not the way god wants, its a way for ancient Israel to live by in a fallen world.

Slave Girls in Exodus 21

These girls were given in marriage to marry sons when they became of age, not against their choice. Her, and her father would both agreed upon it. They were not to be had sex with until there marriage witch they chose to enter into, as well as there fathers, often because they could not afford to take care of them. In v 9 it reads she is to be treated as a daughter .

9 If he selects her for his son, he must grant her the rights of a daughter
-Exodus 21.9

and if he does not she is to be let free v 11

11 If he does not provide her with these three things, she is to go free, without any payment of money.
-Exodus 21 .11

[total relism]

How Could God Send Those he Loves to Hell?

God sends no one to hell, people chose by free will separation from him 2 Thessalonians 1.9. Hell was prepared for the devil and his angels not for humans Matthew 25.4. Haven was prepared for man Matthew 25.34. There are also various degrees of punishment in hell Matt 11 22-24 Romans 2.6.

“Okay, for the sake of argument, let’s pretend that it is really mean of God to punish people for rebellion and unbelief. For the sake of argument, let’s say that everyone does go to Heaven, regardless of their status in the Book of Life. Wouldn’t it be horribly unfair for God to condemn people who hate Him to an eternity in His presence, whether they like it or not? Heaven wouldn’t be pleasant for those who hate God, because Heaven is the place where we will fully experience God’s presence. Those who love God look forward to Heaven with longing, but Heaven would be nearly as bad as Hell for the unbeliever, because the unregenerate heart hates God.
-Lita Cosner Do creationist really hate science?

So in a sense, Hell is God finally giving the unbeliever what he wanted all along. But the absence of God means the absence of everything good, since everything good comes from Him. As C.S. Lewis has written: "There are only two kinds of people in the end: those who say to God, 'Thy will be done,' and those to whom God says, in the end, 'Thy will be done.' All that are in Hell choose it."

"When unbelieving critics talk about Hell, they sometimes speak like it will be full of innocent people (like themselves!). However, the Bible doesn’t indicate that innocent people will spend a single moment in Hell. Rather, Hell is God’s answer to the fundamental injustice of this life. There are many murderers, rapists, and other people who wreak havoc in the lives of others, who never experience judgment in this life. Everyone knows that it is wrong that these people never be brought to account for what they’ve done; something in the human heart demands justice. And Hell is God’s answer."
-Lita Cosner Why would a Loving god Send people to Hell Creation.com

Randy Alcorn writes:

“Without Hell, justice would never overtake the unrepentant tyrants responsible for murdering millions. Perpetrators of evil throughout the ages would get away with murder—and rape, and torture, and every evil. Even if we may acknowledge Hell as a necessary and just punishment for evildoers, however, we rarely see ourselves as worthy of Hell.”

“There is no one righteous, not even one. There is no one who understands, no one who seeks God. All have turned away, they have together become worthless; there is no one who does good, not even one”
- Romans 3:10–12

It’s hard to accept that we deserve punishment. But most people have grievances against others—if someone stole from you, or hurt your children, or if you were a victim of something fundamentally unjust, you would want justice; your sense of what is right would demand that the person at fault pay a penalty for wronging you. Every time we break God’s law, that’s an affront to God, and He demands justice, just as we do imperfectly on a smaller scale. If you’ve ever said in your heart, “That person should pay for what he did!” then you fundamentally agree with the idea of Hell, because the doctrine of Hell says somebody is going to pay for every sin, eventually. But the person who goes to Hell must reject Christ, who died so that anyone who repents can be saved. So God is not to be blamed when an unrepentant, rebellious creature chooses a destructive path that leads to Hell.

It is not gods fault that many will reject him, his offer is still fair and loving as hell was never meant for man.Man chooses to go there and that choice has nothing to do with gods love or fairness, but mans free will. What of the people who do accept him? Should he not have made them because of those that chose life without god?

“The demand that God should forgive such a man while he remains what he is, is based on a confusion between condoning and forgiving. To condone an evil is simply to ignore it, to treat it as if it were good. But forgiveness needs to be accepted as well as offered if it is to be complete: a man who admits no guilt can accept no forgiveness.”
-C.S Lewis, The Problem of Pain

Must There be a Hell?

God has to judge sin to be just. If he allowed us to do whatever sin we wanted there would never be a heaven or paradise, it would really be no different than it is now. To live eternally in today's fallen world would in some ways be a form of eternal hell. What of people who are tortured? Would they prefer an eternal life here on earth? What of those with diseases? What if Hitler and the Nazis could live eternally? If there were no heaven or hell, than there would be no eternal consequences for any individual and mankind could act in any way they wanted. It would turn into a hell on earth. Mankind would live eternally separated from god on earth. That is in part why when believers die it is precious in the lords sight [psalm 116.15] because they enter into a true relationship with him with no sin or separation. Also when believers die they are taken from an evil [fallen] world.

The righteous perishes, And no man takes it to heart; Merciful men are taken away, While no one considers That the righteous is taken away from evil.
-Isaiah. 57:1

Is hell literal fire?

Hell was prepared for devil and his angels Matthew 25.41, they are spiritual beings unaffected by physical fire. Hell is described as dark with flames Matthew 8.12, fire if literal would cancel each other out. Fire is a picture of judgment, in Deuteronomy 9 and other places, it says God goes before Israel as a consuming fire, it means judgment. He judges Canaan, yet never burns them or cause fire. The fire of his judgment was not literal fire, but his judgment.

Eternity?

We live in time, time itself is a created thing, so in eternity its not like time passes by forever. we will be outside of time in eternity, something very hard to understand and grasp.


Why did God not create a world were all would be saved?

I think a part of a William lane Craig's debate might help.

“Suppose that God could create a world in which everyone is freely saved, but there is only one problem: all such worlds have only one person in them! Does God's being all-loving compel Him to prefer one of these underpopulated worlds over a world in which multitudes are saved, even though some people freely go to hell? I don't think so. God's being all-loving implies that in any world He creates He desires and strives for the salvation of every person in that world. But people who would freely reject God's every effort to save them shouldn't be allowed to have some sort of veto power over what worlds God is free to create. Why should the joy and the blessedness of those who would freely accept God's salvation be precluded because of those who would stubbornly and freely reject it? It seems to me that God's being all-loving would at the very most require Him to create a world having an optimal balance between saved and lost, a world where as many as possible freely accept salvation and as few as possible freely reject it.”

But to add onto that, god allows things to happen even though he knows the future. So for example, god punishes certain people for there crimes, yet he waits until the crime is committed. He could punish right off [a murderer] and not allow it to happen. Yet he first allows it and than gives consequence. Same with salvation, he tries to draw near to people who he knows will reject him, Jesus dies for all sinners not just those that would receive him etc

What was the purpose of the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil?

"Some say that a lot of trouble could have been avoided if God had just left the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil out of the Garden. But this misunderstands the vital function of the Tree. The other commands God gave Adam and Eve were fairly self-explanatory and had pleasant outcomes for them, but what was the purpose of the command not to eat from the Tree? It may seem surprising, but God had a loving purpose in putting the Tree in the Garden.God created human beings to be in a relationship with Him. But a true loving relationship has to be freely given or chosen—one could program a robot to think it loves its programmer, but that would be meaningless because the robot didn’t have a choice. God wanted human beings to love Him freely, for who He is, not just for what He had given and provided for them. But that required the chance to not love Him, to rebel. The function of the Tree was to give Adam a chance to obey or rebel, and Adam chose to eat the fruit and to rebel against God.There were two pivotal times in history when God freely gave and made a way that mankind could choose to have a relationship with Him, the Creation and the Incarnation. This also highlights why the battle of Creation is so important. The Fall from grace in the original Creation should help us understand our plight in this sin cursed world, and make it that much easier to recognize what God has done through Jesus.
-Litna Cosner Would Loving God Send people to Hell?

Degrees of Punishment in Hell

Acts 17.31 Mark 6.11

[total relism]

Why is There Death and Suffering if God is all Loving

The bible says God originally created a perfect world with no death, sin, disease or suffering. People did not kill each other and animals did not kill each other- man and animals were vegetarian. However god created a world with free will. He wanted mankind to chose to love and obey him rather than be obedient robots. With free will comes the chance for sin, the first man Adam sinned against god and this sin caused separation from a holy perfect God who cannot dwell near sin. As a result of this separation from god, all the once very good creation know is falling apart. Death and disease are know part of creation and everything is wearing old. God is perfect and cannot be around sin or even look upon sin.

For You are not a God who takes pleasure in wickedness,
Nor shall evil dwell with You.
-Pslam 5,4

Your eyes are too pure to look on evil;
you cannot tolerate wrongdoing.
Why then do you tolerate the treacherous?
Why are you silent while the wicked
swallow up those more righteous than themselves?
-Habakkuk 1:13

He has to judge sin because it is imperfect. All suffering and death is a consequence of being separated from god. He judged sin with the curse, not just mankind but creation itself is cursed. The original perfect creation was destroyed by mans sin, Everything bad that happens according to the bible ultimately is caused from separation form god. That is why when Jesus was around he spent time fighting disease and death, the bible says death is the last enemy that will be defeated [Corinthians 15.26]. However as God gave Adam and Eve a free will to chose. God gave us free will to accept or deny him and we chose to deny.

but your iniquities have made a separation
between you and your God,
and your sins have hidden his face from you
so that he does not hear.
-Isiah 59.2

God could have made us all perfect and pray all day always do the right thing, but that's not love. God wants us to chose to follow him out of love, which only comes with free will. Only when god is in full control, when his will is done, there will be no more wars or disease and only peace. We also have free will to make choices that have consequences that can add to the evils and misery of the world. If I get drunk and crash my car and it kills another driver, that evil and suffering was a result of my own choice, not of gods doing. We all have free will, that's why we pray “your [Gods] will be done on earth as it is in heaven” [Matt 6 .10]. What this world is like and what God intends are two very different things. Gods will is not done here [often] ours is. God gave us stewardship of the earth.

In a fallen world bad things happen for no other reason than that we live in a fallen imperfect world. When people asked Jesus if the 13 builders in Jerusalem that died was because they sinned. Jesus said no, sometimes bad things happen to good people, the whole creation is under this. So the bible teaches a original perfect creation free of death and suffering as god created it. until sin and separation from him resulted from man's sin.

It is no Longer Gods Creation

“Enemy-occupied territory---that is what this world is. Christianity is the story of how the rightful king has landed, you might say landed in disguise, and is calling us to take part in a great campaign of sabotage.”

— C.S. Lewis

God originally dwelt and walked with man in the Garden of Eden in a perfect sinless world before the fall. God also gave the earth to Adam to be a steward of earth [psalm 8.6 Gen 1 26-28]. Adam sinned and caused the fall and separation from God, he handed creation over to sin. This current world we live in is no longer gods creation. Jesus calls the devil the prince and ruler of this world, in John 18.36 Jesus says I am not of this world.

Again, the devil took Him up on an exceedingly high mountain, and showed Him all the kingdoms of the world and their glory. 9 And he said to Him, “All these things I will give You if You will fall down and worship me.”
-Matthew chapter 4 8-9

9 In this manner, therefore, pray:
Our Father in heaven,
Hallowed be Your name.
10 Your kingdom come.
Your will be done
On earth as it is in heaven.
-Matthew 6 9-10

16 The highest heavens belong to the LORD,
but the earth he has given to man.
-Proverbs 18 -17

“whose minds the god of this age has blinded, who do not believe, lest the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine on them.”
- 2 Corinthians 4.4


Gods Judgment of Sin/ Is Death a Just Punishment for sin?

God has to judge sin to be just. If he allowed us to do whatever sin we wanted there would never be a heaven or paradise, it would really be no different than it is now. To live eternally in today's fallen world would in some ways be a form of eternal hell. What of people who are tortured? Would they prefer an eternal life here on earth? What of those with diseases? What if Hitler and the Nazis could live eternally? If there were no heaven or hell, than there would be no eternal consequences for any individual and mankind could act in any way they wanted. It would turn into a hell on earth. Mankind would live eternally separated from god on earth. That is in part why when believers die it is precious in the lords sight [psalm 116.15] because they enter into a true relationship with him with no sin or separation. Also when believers die they are taken from an evil [fallen] world.

The righteous perishes, And no man takes it to heart; Merciful men are taken away, While no one considers That the righteous is taken away from evil.
-Isaiah. 57:1

There would be no punishment and separation from god, if we did not sin.

8 Then the word of the LORD came to Zechariah, saying, 9 “Thus says the LORD of hosts:
Execute true justice,
Show mercy and compassion
Everyone to his brother.
10 Do not oppress the widow or the fatherless,
The alien or the poor.
Let none of you plan evil in his heart
Against his brother.’
-Zechariah 7 8-10

8 He has shown you, O mortal, what is good.
And what does the LORD require of you?
To act justly and to love mercy
and to walk humbly[a] with your God.
-Micah 6.8

But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law
-Galatians 5 22-23

What it Will be Like When God is in Full Control- Restoring the Garden of Eden

1 Now I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away. Also there was no more sea. 2 Then I, John, saw the holy city, New Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. 3 And I heard a loud voice from heaven saying, “Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and He will dwell with them, and they shall be His people. God Himself will be with them and be their God. 4 And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes; there shall be no more death, nor sorrow, nor crying. There shall be no more pain, for the former things have passed away.”
5 Then He who sat on the throne said, “Behold, I make all things new.”
-Revelations 21 1-5

The wolf will live with the lamb,
the leopard will lie down with the goat,
the calf and the lion and the yearling together;
and a little child will lead them.
7 The cow will feed with the bear,
their young will lie down together,
and the lion will eat straw like the ox.
8 The infant will play near the cobra’s den,
the young child will put its hand into the viper’s nest.
9 They will neither harm nor destroy
on all my holy mountain,
for the earth will be filled with the knowledge of the LORD
-Isiah 11 6-9

he will swallow up death forever.
The Sovereign Lord will wipe away the tears
from all faces;
he will remove his people’s disgrace
from all the earth.
The Lord has spoken.
-Isiah 25.8

1 The vision that Isaiah son of Amoz saw concerning Judah and Jerusalem:
2 In the last days
he mountain of the LORD's house will be established
at the top of the mountains
and will be raised above the hills.
All nations will stream to it,
3 and many peoples will come and say,
"Come, let us go up to the mountain of the LORD,
to the house of the God of Jacob.
He will teach us about His ways
so that we may walk in His paths."
For instruction will go out of Zion
and the word of the LORD from Jerusalem.
4 He will settle disputes among the nations
and provide arbitration for many peoples.
They will turn their swords into plows
and their spears into pruning knives.
Nations will not take up the sword against [other] nations,
and they will never again train for war.
-Isaiah 2 1-4

The Solution/ The Gospel

“I could never myself believe in God, if it were not for the cross. The only God I believe in is the One Nietzsche ridiculed as “God on the cross.” In the real world of pain, how could one worship a God who was immune to it? I have entered many Buddhist temples in different Asian countries and stood respectfully before the statue of the Buddha, his legs crossed, arms folded, eyes closed, the ghost of a smile playing round his mouth, a remote look on his face, detached from the agonies of the world. But each time after a while I have had to turn away. And in imagination I have turned instead to that lonely, twisted, tortured figure on the cross, nails through hands and feet, back lacerated, limbs wrenched, brow bleeding from thorn-pricks, mouth dry and intolerably thirsty, plunged in Godforsaken darkness. That is the God for me! He laid aside his immunity to pain. He entered our world of flesh and blood, tears and death. He suffered for us. Our sufferings become more manageable in the light of his. There is still a question mark against human suffering, but over it we boldly stamp another mark, the cross that symbolizes divine suffering. ”The cross of Christ . . . is God’s only self-justification in such a world” as ours. . . . “The other gods were strong; but thou wast weak; they rode, but thou didst stumble to a throne; But to our wounds only God’s wounds can speak, And not a god has wounds, but thou alone.”
-John Stott, The Cross of Christ

The solution to death and suffering is why Jesus was sent as a perfect sinless sacrifice to cover the sins of man, by putting there faith in him. It is the only way for a perfect, sinless, all loving God, to save a sinful people and remain just. Picture God as a judge [he is] and he is a all loving and forgiving judge, but also a perfect holy judge [Ex 34 6-7]. If God is just, loving and forgiving, and truly hates sin [as a all loving just god would] than he cannot allow any sin to go unpunished he must judge all sin or he is not all just or a fair judge. Since all mankind is sinful.

for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,
-Romans 3.23

How can we make up for our own sin? how could we not face punishment? and separation from god. That is when an all loving God came into history, and his creation, and died as a willing sacrifice to take the just punishment we deserved on himself. So he can spend an eternity with his creation whom he loves and still be all just.

5 But He was wounded for our transgressions,
He was bruised for our iniquities;
The chastisement for our peace was upon Him,
And by His stripes we are healed.
6 All we like sheep have gone astray;
We have turned, every one, to his own way;
And the LORD has laid on Him the iniquity of us all.
-Isiah 53 5-6

24 and He Himself bore our sins in His body on the cross, so that we might die to sin and live to righteousness; for by His wounds you were healed.
-1 peter 2. 24

So we are justified freely and eternal life is a gift from God given to all mankind [Romans 3 9-11 6.23]. So all we need to do is accept the perfect sacrifice of Jesus on the cross, and we are cleansed of our sin and forgiven by god. God does not one person to be sent to hell.

The Lord is not willing that any should perish but that all should reach repentance
-2Pet. 3.9

He desires all men to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth"
-1Tim. 2.4

Have I any pleasure in the death of the wicked?,' says the Lord God, 'And not rather that he should turn from his way and live? For I have no pleasure in the death of anyone,' says the Lord God. 'So turn and live! Say to them, "As I live," says the Lord God, "I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but that the wicked turn from his way and live. Turn back, turn back from your evil ways. For why will you die?
-Ez. 18.23,32; 33.11


of course there will be many who are turning away from God that will see this as foolishness

18 For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.
-1 Corinthians 1.18

But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him
-1 Corinthians 2 .14

The fool says in his heart, “There is no God.”
-psalm 14.1

Does God sit Around and Allow Evil to Happen?

If god was on earth in control he would judge us and punish us. Over and over read [exodus Leviticus] God says do not come near me for I am holy and separate from sin lest you die. He does not want to judge us but forgive us, but he is a fully just god who if is all loving perfect and hates sin than he must judge.

proclaiming, "The LORD, the LORD, the compassionate and gracious God, slow to anger, abounding in love and faithfulness, 7 maintaining love to thousands, and forgiving wickedness, rebellion and sin. Yet he does not leave the guilty unpunished
-exodus 34 6-7

“If humans have free will, that has to include the real potential of evil. If God simply 'poofed' away any evil decisions or their consequences, that would effectively mean that humans don't have meaningful choice.Second, it is incredibly presumptuous to expect God to intervene every time *humans* screw up. Why don't the atheists spend half as much time criticizing the humans who create these atrocities as shaking their fist at a God who they don't even believe in? Third, God has done something about evil; He sent Jesus. There is a solution to the problem of evil, just not an *immediate* one (an *immediate* solution would have killed Adam and Eve instantly, thus ending the human race, and all speculation about the problem of evil)....So, how could a loving God just sit back and allow all the death and suffering in this world? This question assumes that God hasn’t done anything. In fact, God has done a lot already to solve the problem of evil, and He has promised to do more in the future. If God had immediately judged all of humanity and gotten rid of the evil rebellion that causes death and suffering today, Adam and Eve would have died instantly, and none of us would be around to complain about God delaying judgment and allowing bad things to happen. Second, the death and suffering that goes on in this life is a powerful reminder that something is wrong with creation, and more than that, something is wrong with the human heart and our relationship to God. Suffering often points people to Christ, who is God’s ultimate answer to the problem of evil.”
-Shane Cessna Is it Gods Fault

“If God followed this type of “logic,” then we would live in a bizarre world. Should He temporarily suspend gravity when a person attempts to commit suicide by leaping from a high place, or must He prevent car crashes through any means necessary? Let’s take this a step further. Maybe He should prevent any harm to any person. Perhaps He should suspend gravity whenever a little girl is about to fall down so that she doesn’t scrape up her knee. Should He prevent us from eating food that may not be entirely healthy? This type of thinking quickly removes any semblance of freedom we may have.If people followed this type of “logic,” then we would outlaw all sports, driving, or any other activity that involves the risk of dying or getting hurt. People would never have children knowing their kids would grow up and eventually die. No one would get a pet because the pet might scratch a family member—or worse, that pet will eventually die, and some pets would give birth to other animals, which would also eventually die. I’m thankful that God doesn’t play by these rules. While there are times that I tend to wish He would have prevented me from doing certain things (namely, the times I’ve sinned against Him or the times I’ve hurt others), I realize that He is able to use those things or their consequences for good (Romans 8:28).
-Tim Chaffey Answers in Genesis

[Gilrandir]

The bible says God originally created a perfect world with no death, sin, disease or suffering. People did not kill each other and animals did not kill each other- man and animals were vegetarian.

So animals sinned and stopped being vegetarian as well?

In a fallen world bad things happen for no other reason than that we live in a fallen imperfect world. When people asked Jesus if the 13 builders in Jerusalem that died was because they sinned. Jesus said no, sometimes bad things happen to good people, the whole creation is under this. So the bible teaches a original perfect creation free of death and suffering as god created it. until sin and separation from him resulted from man's sin.

So however good and righteous you might be you may still suffer because "sometimes bad things happen to good people"? What's the use of being good and righteous then?

If god was on earth in control he would judge us and punish us. Over and over read [exodus Leviticus] God says do not come near me for I am holy and separate from sin lest you die. He does not want to judge us but forgive us, but he is a fully just god who if is all loving perfect and hates sin than he must judge.

So God doesn't want to judge, he wants to forgive, yet he judges?

proclaiming, "The LORD, the LORD, the compassionate and gracious God, slow to anger, abounding in love and faithfulness,
-exodus 34 7

I have a different information:

Exodus 20:5
"You shall not worship them or serve them; for I, the LORD your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children, on the third and the fourth generations of those who hate Me,

Deuteronomy 4:23-24
"For the LORD your God is a consuming fire, a jealous God

Deuteronomy 32:16
"They made Him jealous with strange gods; With abominations they provoked Him to anger

Joshua 24:19
Then Joshua said to the people, "You will not be able to serve the LORD, for He is a holy God He is a jealous God; He will not forgive your transgression or your sins.


Generally speaking, proving anything citing Bible is a bad idea for in it one can find such proof to a completely opposite idea.

There is a solution to the problem of evil, just not an *immediate* one (an *immediate* solution would have killed Adam and Eve instantly, thus ending the human race, and all speculation about the problem of evil)
-Shane Cessna Is it Gods Fault

I like it. A person sinned. What should be the solution? A modern Christian would say: make him repent, or show him he was wrong, or scare him with a terrible prospect and thus make him stop sinning. What does "the compassionate and gracious God, slow to anger, abounding in love and faithfulness" suggest (according to a Shane Cessna)? Kill him! I like it. What about forgiveness?

So, how could a loving God just sit back and allow all the death and suffering in this world? This question assumes that God hasn’t done anything.

A wrong assumption. It rather assumes he has absolved himself of all responsibility and watches from on high with insouciant nonchalance. And sometimes lets "bad things happen to good people".

In fact, God has done a lot already to solve the problem of evil, and He has promised to do more in the future.

Sounds too much like an election agenda.

Second, the death and suffering that goes on in this life is a powerful reminder that something is wrong with creation, and more than that, something is wrong with the human heart and our relationship to God.

To kill a human to REMIND all others of something? That sure could have been done only by
"the compassionate and gracious God, slow to anger, abounding in love".

[I]“If God followed this type of “logic,” then we would live in a bizarre world. Should He temporarily suspend gravity when a person attempts to commit suicide by leaping from a high place, or must He prevent car crashes through any means necessary? Let’s take this a step further. Maybe He should prevent any harm to any person. Perhaps He should suspend gravity whenever a little girl is about to fall down so that she doesn’t scrape up her knee. Should He prevent us from eating food that may not be entirely healthy?

So the world in which someone walks on water or turns water into win or resurrects a corpse is not bizarre? Isn't walking on water somehow inrefering with gravity?

I’m thankful that God doesn’t play by these rules.

I would say he doesn't play by these rules. If he needs a miracle he will work it, logic or no logic, rules or no rules.

[Gilrandir]

Hell is described as dark with flames Matthew 8.12, fire if literal would cancel each other out.

What it was could not be seen: it was like a great shadow, in the middle of which was a dark form, of man-shape maybe, yet greater; and a power and terror seemed to be in it and to go before it.
It came to the edge of the fire and the light faded as if a cloud had bent over it. Then with a rush it leaped across the fissure. The flames roared up to greet it, and wreathed about it; and a black smoke swirled in the air. Its streaming mane kindled, and blazed behind it. In its right hand was a blade like a stabbing tongue of fire; in its left it held a whip of many thongs.
'Ai! ai!' wailed Legolas. 'A Balrog! A Balrog is come! '
Gimli stared with wide eyes. 'Durin's Bane!' he cried, and letting his axe fall he covered his face.
'A Balrog,' muttered Gandalf. 'Now I understand.' He faltered and leaned heavily on his staff. 'What an evil fortune! And I am already weary.'

The dark figure streaming with fire raced towards them. The orcs yelled and poured over the stone gangways. Then Boromir raised his horn and blew. Loud the challenge rang and bellowed, like the shout of many throats under the cavernous roof. For a moment the orcs quailed and the fiery shadow halted. Then the echoes died as suddenly as a flame blown out by a dark wind, and the enemy advanced again.
'Over the bridge!' cried Gandalf, recalling his strength. 'Fly! This is a foe beyond any of you. I must hold the narrow way. Fly!' Aragorn and Boromir did not heed the command, but still held their ground, side by side, behind Gandalf at the far end of the bridge. The others halted just within the doorway at the hall's end, and turned, unable to leave their leader to face the enemy alone.
The Balrog reached the bridge. Gandalf stood in the middle of the span, leaning on the staff in his left hand, but in his other hand Glamdring gleamed, cold and white. His enemy halted again, facing him, and the shadow about it reached out like two vast wings. It raised the whip, and the thongs whined and cracked. Fire came from its nostrils.

Fire is a picture of judgment, in Deuteronomy 9 and other places, it says God goes before Israel as a consuming fire, it means judgment. He judges Canaan, yet never burns them or cause fire. The fire of his judgment was not literal fire, but his judgment.

An arbitrary assumption. I might as well claim the opposite.

But to add onto that, god allows things to happen even though he knows the future.

So he knew what would happen to Adam and Eve? He knew that his creation would go wrong? If those things were meant to be, it means that it was God's will. So it wasn't Adam's rebellion or sin, it was fulfilment of God's will and designs.

[rory_20_uk]

The entirety of the Old Testament there was no Hell. And when the New Testament starts where things are on one level much more level all about love and forgiveness Hell appears. Right about the same time the texts stop being written by Jews and are written by Greeks and Romans. What a coincidence.

I know of no one who has died and returned to tell us what happened and has documented this. Until then who knows?

[rory_20_uk]

Who said God is all loving? The terrified people who were desperately hoping that if they were flattering he might randomly kill someone else? Hardly a good source. He spent most of the time either showing off whilst committing genocide to those he'd forced to be obstinate. Then apparently one chap said he'd changed his mind and as long as one is sufficiently blinkered this would be true.

[Strike For The South]

Love and comfort are not synonyms. Nor does a loving God absolve people of acting morally or ethically.

[total relism]

What it was could not be seen: it was like a great shadow, in the middle of which was a dark form, of man-shape maybe, yet greater; and a power and terror seemed to be in it and to go before it.
It came to the edge of the fire and the light faded as if a cloud had bent over it. Then with a rush it leaped across the fissure. The flames roared up to greet it, and wreathed about it; and a black smoke swirled in the air. Its streaming mane kindled, and blazed behind it. In its right hand was a blade like a stabbing tongue of fire; in its left it held a whip of many thongs.
'Ai! ai!' wailed Legolas. 'A Balrog! A Balrog is come! '
Gimli stared with wide eyes. 'Durin's Bane!' he cried, and letting his axe fall he covered his face.
'A Balrog,' muttered Gandalf. 'Now I understand.' He faltered and leaned heavily on his staff. 'What an evil fortune! And I am already weary.'

The dark figure streaming with fire raced towards them. The orcs yelled and poured over the stone gangways. Then Boromir raised his horn and blew. Loud the challenge rang and bellowed, like the shout of many throats under the cavernous roof. For a moment the orcs quailed and the fiery shadow halted. Then the echoes died as suddenly as a flame blown out by a dark wind, and the enemy advanced again.
'Over the bridge!' cried Gandalf, recalling his strength. 'Fly! This is a foe beyond any of you. I must hold the narrow way. Fly!' Aragorn and Boromir did not heed the command, but still held their ground, side by side, behind Gandalf at the far end of the bridge. The others halted just within the doorway at the hall's end, and turned, unable to leave their leader to face the enemy alone.
The Balrog reached the bridge. Gandalf stood in the middle of the span, leaning on the staff in his left hand, but in his other hand Glamdring gleamed, cold and white. His enemy halted again, facing him, and the shadow about it reached out like two vast wings. It raised the whip, and the thongs whined and cracked. Fire came from its nostrils.

Great stuff, I love Tolkien. I thought you were a fan as well given your name. Here is a short bio i wrote of him

http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthr...f-Middle-Earth


Are you on any Tolkien forums? what have you read of tolkien?

An arbitrary assumption. I might as well claim the opposite.

But how could you support a literal fire in this case?

So he knew what would happen to Adam and Eve? He knew that his creation would go wrong? If those things were meant to be, it means that it was God's will. So it wasn't Adam's rebellion or sin, it was fulfilment of God's will and designs.

Yes he knew what would happen. No it was not his intention or will. He willed a creation with free will to chose to follow him and not to sin.

[total relism]

The entirety of the Old Testament there was no Hell. And when the New Testament starts where things are on one level much more level all about love and forgiveness Hell appears. Right about the same time the texts stop being written by Jews and are written by Greeks and Romans. What a coincidence.

I know of no one who has died and returned to tell us what happened and has documented this. Until then who knows?

The way of life is above to the wise, that he may depart from hell beneath.
-Proverbs 15.24

Multitudes who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake: some to everlasting life, others to shame and everlasting contempt. 3 Those who are wise[a] will shine like the brightness of the heavens, and those who lead many to righteousness, like the stars for ever and ever.
-Daniel 12-2,3

Her house is the way to Sheol,
going down to the chambers of death
Proverbs 7.27

“And they shall go forth and look
Upon the corpses of the men
Who have transgressed against Me.
For their worm does not die,
And their fire is not quenched.
They shall be an abhorrence to all flesh.
Isiah 66.24

But your dead will live, Lord;
their bodies will rise—
let those who dwell in the dust
wake up and shout for joy—
your dew is like the dew of the morning;
the earth will give birth to her dead.
Go, my people, enter your rooms
and shut the doors behind you;
hide yourselves for a little while
until his wrath has passed by.
See, the Lord is coming out of his dwelling
to punish the people of the earth for their sins.
The earth will disclose the blood shed on it;
the earth will conceal its slain no longer.
Isiah 26 19-21


“I will deliver this people from the power of the grave;
I will redeem them from death.
Where, O death, are your plagues?
Where, O grave, is your destruction?
Hosea 13.14

Your dead shall live, their corpses[a] shall rise.
O dwellers in the dust, awake and sing for joy!
For your dew is a radiant dew,
and the earth will give birth to those long dead.
Isiah 26.19

also see 1 Samuel 28 12-14 psalm 17.15 Isiah 25 8-9 Ezekiel 37 11-13 job 19.26 to name some of them a few more beneath.



You claimed above that the NT was written by greeks and romans. I will ask you support such a claim when my thread on the translation of the bible is done.



Jesus indeed died and returned.


I was dead, and behold, I am alive for evermore, and I have the keys of death and of Hades.
Rev 1.18

or this very reason, Christ died and returned to life so that he might be the Lord of both the dead and the living.
-Romans 14.9

[total relism]

Who said God is all loving? The terrified people who were desperately hoping that if they were flattering he might randomly kill someone else? Hardly a good source. He spent most of the time either showing off whilst committing genocide to those he'd forced to be obstinate. Then apparently one chap said he'd changed his mind and as long as one is sufficiently blinkered this would be true.

Well he did through the bible. I agree nothing says god must be loving, however god as reveled in the bible declares a loving god. So that must bring up the question of why is their death and suffering in a loving gods creation, how did it get here?

As for the claims of a genocidal god or unloving god, i suggest this thread here


Did God Command Genocide During the Conquest of Canaan?
https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showt...uest-of-Canaan

[total relism]

So animals sinned and stopped being vegetarian as well?

Yes. But not before the fall.

So however good and righteous you might be you may still suffer because "sometimes bad things happen to good people"? What's the use of being good and righteous then?

Yup, no matter how good you think you are, you still live in this fallen world. The only sinless man Jesus [according to the bible] was brutally murdered because of others sin. However none is guiltless or sinless before god. To even look at another woman lustfully is adultery in his view.

The reason to be good is it is what god asks of us, out of love we try and obey him.

And this is love: that we walk in obedience to his commands. As you have heard from the beginning, his command is that you walk in love.
2 john 1.6

We love him, because he first loved us
1 john 4.19

So God doesn't want to judge, he wants to forgive, yet he judges?

Right. he does not want us to sin and does not wish to punish us. But his perfect justice cannot allow sin or evil to go unpunished. Thus he offered to take the penalty on himself and pay the debt if we are willing. Think of a judge whos son is facing the death penalty, he wishes he did not murder, he loves him so much he would take his place, but the son refuses and as a judge, he must give the sentence or he would be a bad unjust judge.

"'Have I any pleasure in the death of the wicked?,' says the Lord God, 'And not rather that he should turn from his way and live? For I have no pleasure in the death of anyone,' says the Lord God. 'So turn and live! Say to them, "As I live," says the Lord God, "I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but that the wicked turn from his way and live. Turn back, turn back from your evil ways. For why will you die?"'"
-Ez. 18.23,32; 33.11

I have a different information:

Exodus 20:5
"You shall not worship them or serve them; for I, the LORD your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children, on the third and the fourth generations of those who hate Me,

Deuteronomy 4:23-24
"For the LORD your God is a consuming fire, a jealous God

Deuteronomy 32:16
"They made Him jealous with strange gods; With abominations they provoked Him to anger

Joshua 24:19
Then Joshua said to the people, "You will not be able to serve the LORD, for He is a holy God He is a jealous God; He will not forgive your transgression or your sins.


Generally speaking, proving anything citing Bible is a bad idea for in it one can find such proof to a completely opposite idea.

Generally speaking the context will clarify any text used to try and force any contradiction. Your first is to take out of its context and claim god unjustly punishes children for the sins of the fathers.

Sins of the fathers punish the children?

Fathers shall not be put to death for their children, nor children put to death for their fathers; each is to die for his own sin.
Deut. 24:16

The soul who sins is the one who will die. The son will not share the guilt of the father, nor will the father share the guilt of the son. The righteousness of the righteous man will be credited to him, and the wickedness of the wicked will be charged against him.
Ezekiel 18:20

It is if they continue in fathers sins, they will be punished.

they continue in fathers sins will cause judgment, otherwise god would relent example 1 sam 15 3 and 5 god says he will punish amalakites for what happened in Egypt long before [fathers]. Yet they continued in fathers sin judges 3.12 6 3-5,33 7.12 10.12 etc 1 sam 30 1 sam 15.18 show they are presently wicked. A key to understanding this business is a concept called vicarious punishment that is found in the law codes of the ANE. Greenberg [Chr.SPPS, 295] offers these examples:

A creditor who has maltreated the distrained sin of his debtor that he dies, must lose his own son. If a man struck the pregnant daughter of another so that she miscarried and died, his own daughter must be put to death. A seducer must deliver his wife to the seduced girl's father for prostitution. In another class are penalties which involve the substitution of a dependent for the offerer -- the Hittite laws compelling a slayer to deliver so many persons to the kinsmen of the slain, or prescribing that a man who has pushed another into a fire must give over his son...Now it is precisely this kind of punishment, which was prescribed in every law code in the Near East, that Deut. 24:16 is intended to forbid. The verse is not a universal motto, but a time-specific law intended as a direct counter to the practices listed above. "The proper understanding of this requires...that it be recognized as a judicial provision, not a theological dictum." [Chr.SPPS, 296, 298]
http://www.tektonics.org/lp/paydaddy.html


many today support abortion because of rape, that is punishing the child for the sins of the father.




Deuteronomy 4 and 32


Yes God gets angry and jealous. I said he was loving. His love causes anger and jealousy. Think of your wife [assuming you are married or girlfriend or what ever] and she leaves you, breaks her covenant with you where she swore to be faithful, and cheated on you with other men. Wouldn't your love cause you to be Jealous and angry? Gods jealousy is not the same as human jealousy and a great book would be

https://www.amazon.com/God-Moral-Mon.../dp/0801072751

for this and i think it betters fits a future thread of mine coming soon. Gods anger is perhaps no better displayed than during the conquest, see here

https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showt...uest-of-Canaan


I think you will see that his anger is not a human kind of anger but

“Judgment is not opposed to Gods love and compassion, but rather springs from the character of a loving, caring god”
-Matthew Flannagan and paul Copan Did God really Command genocide

“I used to think that wrath was unworthy of God. Isn't God love? Shouldn't divine love be beyond wrath? ?God is love,and God loves every person and every creature. That's exactly why God is wrathful against some of them. My last resistance to the idea of God's wrath was a casualty of the war in the former Yugoslavia, a region from which I come. According to some estimates, 200,000 people were killed, and over 3,000,000 were displaced. My villages and cities were destroyed, my people shelled day in and day out, some of them brutalize beyond imagination, and I could not imagine God not being angry. Or think of Rwanda in the last decade of the past century, where 800,000 people were hacked to death in one hundred days! How did God react to the carnage? By doting on the perpetrators in a grandfatherly fashion? By refusing to condemn the bloodbath but instead affirming the perpetrators' basic goodness? Wasn't God fiercely angry with them? Though I used to complain about the indecency of the idea of God's wrath, I cam to think that I would have to rebel against a God who wasn't wrathful at the sight of the world' evil. God isn't wrathful in spite of being love. God is wrathful because God is love”
-Miroslav Volf Harvard Theologian quoted in Is God a Moral Monster? by Paul Copan, 192



As for joshua 24 and that god will not forgive, that is if they refuse to follow him and continue in sin after his warnings, they chose to sin and separate from him in disobedience. Thus his justice must come that he wishes not to do .

“ If at any time I declare concerning a nation or a kingdom, that I will pluck up and break down and destroy it, 8 and if that nation, concerning which I have spoken, turns from its evil, I will relent of the disaster that I intended to do to it. 9 And if at any time I declare concerning a nation or a kingdom that I will build and plant it, 10 and if it does evil in my sight, not listening to my voice, then I will relent of the good that I had intended to do to it.”
-Jeremiah 18 7-10

“When God saw what they did and how they turned from their evil ways, he relented and did not bring on them the destruction he had threatened.”
-Jonah 3.10

I like it. A person sinned. What should be the solution? A modern Christian would say: make him repent, or show him he was wrong, or scare him with a terrible prospect and thus make him stop sinning. What does "the compassionate and gracious God, slow to anger, abounding in love and faithfulness" suggest (according to a Shane Cessna)? Kill him! I like it. What about forgiveness?

I think you misread. He said the only other option for god at this point would have been to kill adam and eve, showing god chose the more forgiving path.

A wrong assumption. It rather assumes he has absolved himself of all responsibility and watches from on high with insouciant nonchalance. And sometimes lets "bad things happen to good people".

a wrong assumption, it assumes he has not done anything about it, a very false assumption as my op showed.

Sounds too much like an election agenda.

lol, nice.

To kill a human to REMIND all others of something? That sure could have been done only by
"the compassionate and gracious God, slow to anger, abounding in love".

It was referring to death as a whole, as part of the fallen world. God does not kill to remind people of death, it is now natural. When animals and loved ones die, their is a sense in most people this is wrong and not meant to be, this would make no sense in an athsitic worldview, but it is so.

So the world in which someone walks on water or turns water into win or resurrects a corpse is not bizarre? Isn't walking on water somehow inrefering with gravity?

great point. However those miracles of jesus were to show him the son of god, not normative way of life. If it were normal noone would know what a miracle was. You need a standard way of laws to operate so the creator can show he is who he claims to be.

[rory_20_uk]

Well he did through the bible. I agree nothing says god must be loving, however god as reveled in the bible declares a loving god. So that must bring up the question of why is their death and suffering in a loving gods creation, how did it get here?

As for the claims of a genocidal god or unloving god, i suggest this thread here


Did God Command Genocide During the Conquest of Canaan?
https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showt...uest-of-Canaan

Most of the bible displays the absolute opposite - especially the old testament which is the majority of it. There are a few letters towards the end from people in the Roman Empire, but these often disagree with each other on important details so again "revealed" is a rather strong term to use. The source document is so rife with concerns it is at best the view of a group of people.

I think that genocide has a role to play in the concept of "love".

[rory_20_uk]

The way of life is above to the wise, that he may depart from hell beneath.
-Proverbs 15.24

Multitudes who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake: some to everlasting life, others to shame and everlasting contempt. 3 Those who are wise[a] will shine like the brightness of the heavens, and those who lead many to righteousness, like the stars for ever and ever.
-Daniel 12-2,3

Her house is the way to Sheol,
going down to the chambers of death
Proverbs 7.27

“And they shall go forth and look
Upon the corpses of the men
Who have transgressed against Me.
For their worm does not die,
And their fire is not quenched.
They shall be an abhorrence to all flesh.
Isiah 66.24

But your dead will live, Lord;
their bodies will rise—
let those who dwell in the dust
wake up and shout for joy—
your dew is like the dew of the morning;
the earth will give birth to her dead.
Go, my people, enter your rooms
and shut the doors behind you;
hide yourselves for a little while
until his wrath has passed by.
See, the Lord is coming out of his dwelling
to punish the people of the earth for their sins.
The earth will disclose the blood shed on it;
the earth will conceal its slain no longer.
Isiah 26 19-21


“I will deliver this people from the power of the grave;
I will redeem them from death.
Where, O death, are your plagues?
Where, O grave, is your destruction?
Hosea 13.14

Your dead shall live, their corpses[a] shall rise.
O dwellers in the dust, awake and sing for joy!
For your dew is a radiant dew,
and the earth will give birth to those long dead.
Isiah 26.19

also see 1 Samuel 28 12-14 psalm 17.15 Isiah 25 8-9 Ezekiel 37 11-13 job 19.26 to name some of them a few more beneath.



You claimed above that the NT was written by greeks and romans. I will ask you support such a claim when my thread on the translation of the bible is done.

Jesus indeed died and returned.


I was dead, and behold, I am alive for evermore, and I have the keys of death and of Hades.
Rev 1.18

or this very reason, Christ died and returned to life so that he might be the Lord of both the dead and the living.
-Romans 14.9

Proverbs I grant you. None of the others refer to hell. They all refer to rising - none leaving the earth.

You ask me to demonstrate that letters sent from Rome and the surrounding areas and with entire Gospels written in Greek that these were written by Greeks or Romans and yet are quite happy to provide a quote as "proof". Just because I say I'm dead and have arisen doesn't make it true.

Believe what you want - that's fine. But when you try to make beliefs somehow evidenced-based it all rather falls down.

[total relism]

Most of the bible displays the absolute opposite - especially the old testament which is the majority of it. There are a few letters towards the end from people in the Roman Empire, but these often disagree with each other on important details so again "revealed" is a rather strong term to use. The source document is so rife with concerns it is at best the view of a group of people.

I think that genocide has a role to play in the concept of "love".

Very unspecific so i cannot respond not sure what you are saying here. I would suggest you have made clear that you have never actually read the bible. As for the claims of genocide in the OT I would love for you to comment on its relevant thread.

Did God Command genocide During the Conquest of Canaan?
https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showt...uest-of-Canaan


But as for this thread, do you have any comments on why is There Death and Suffering if God is all Loving? if so i would also love to discus that.

[total relism]

Proverbs I grant you. None of the others refer to hell. They all refer to rising - none leaving the earth.

You ask me to demonstrate that letters sent from Rome and the surrounding areas and with entire Gospels written in Greek that these were written by Greeks or Romans and yet are quite happy to provide a quote as "proof". Just because I say I'm dead and have arisen doesn't make it true.

Believe what you want - that's fine. But when you try to make beliefs somehow evidenced-based it all rather falls down.

sheol is the place of the dead, hell is an eternal place where nobody in the OT times is or was, not until the final judgment. Daniel clearly makes a distinction of two separate eternal places, one to "everlasting contempt" [hell] one to everlasting life [haven]. Isiah describes a place of

"For their worm does not die,
And their fire is not quenched.
They shall be an abhorrence to all flesh."

does this not seem hell? those other passages that speak of rising, no more death and a world with god, means those who do not go to this place [haven] go to everlasting contempt etc hell. Let me add another verse. Also see below

“Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit.”
Isiah 14.15



So back to your question, why is Hell mentioned so much more in the N.T. than the O.T.? Well, first of all it should be noted that in older versions (KJV, Geneva, and Douay-Rheims) the word "hell" appears 31 times in the O.T. and only 23 times in the N.T. In all 31 O.T. instances, the Hebrew word is "Sheol" and this word has a couple of different meanings. It can mean simply "the grave" or "the tomb in the earth where a body is laid after death". It can also refer to the two separate places where the righteous and the wicked went after death. There are also other times in Hebrew where the term Sheol is not used, but the concept of a destination place for the dead souls of mankind is clearly implied or directly stated. In the newer English translation, the majority of times Sheol is just transliterated into English as Sheol, although "hell" is kept in many places (19 of the 31 times in the NKJV) but zero times in almost all other English translations (ESV, NIV, NAS)

Psalm 63:9 and Ezekiel 32:24 both seem to imply that Hell (Sheol in Hebrew) is in the lower parts of the earth. Sheol in O.T. theology had two components; the grave for the righteous (called Abraham's bosom in Luke 16) and a place of conscious torment for the wicked, the Pit (usually shachath or bowr in Hebrew) which seems to be where the rich man in the parable of the rich man and Lazarus was. The N.T. contains one reference to the lower parts of the earth in Eph. 4:9, which is often viewed as relating to Sheol, specifically Abraham's bosom. Other references to the Abyss or the Bottomless Pit also seem to indicate a physical opening at the earth's surface to a physical location in the interior of the earth. It must be pointed out however, that in each of these cases where the lower parts of the earth, the Abyss or the Bottomless Pit are mentioned, the genre is either parable, poetic or prophetic, not historical narrative, and the verses do have symbols and/or symbolic language (with the exception of Eph. 4:9 but this passage has been hotly debated among theologians in any event).

However, in Luke 16, Abraham says to the rich man that there is a great gulf (Mega-chasm would be the transliteration) between Abraham's bosom and Sheol/Hades. The rich man looked up and saw Abraham, which seems to make an earthly hades unlikely. (Would there really be an upper Hades for the good and lower Hades for the wicked, and if so, how could the rich man see Abraham through miles of rock)? We must also remember that in this parable, Christ had not yet died and resurrected, and therefore the physical bodies of Abraham, Lazarus and the rich man were still in the ground. We look forward to a physical and spiritual resurrection when we die, because of what Christ accomplished (1 Cor. 15:20-23), even the limited understanding of resurrection by O.T. saints and first century Jews reveals that they understood the body would not be raised until the time of the end (Dan. 12:2 and John 11:24).

But to the crux of your question, even though Sheol is mention more than hell (O.T. vs. N.T.) the concept of an eternal place of torment for the wicked is mentioned more in the N.T. Why is this? One could claim that it is just a matter of progressive revelation. {For example the concept of the Church is termed a mystery in the N.T. meaning it was not revealed until then. It was unknown even in principle in the O.T. If a person wanted to "know the Lord" in O.T. times he had to proselytize to Judaism, and place himself under the Law. Of course we know that the just shall live by their faith (Hab. 2:4) and that O.T. saints were not justified by the Law, but the Law did point out their sinfulness and their need for a Savior. But even Christ said in His Day that at that time in history "salvation is of the Jews" (John 4:22).} In some degree this is correct. Since the O.T. saints had to look forward to Christ with only 39 books of Scripture, and we as Christians have the privilege of looking back at Christ and having 66 books of Scripture, one could say we have a greater degree of Truth given to us. This ties in with heaven, hell, resurrection, indwelling of the Holy Spirit, immortal bodies, etc. So of course we have had more revealed to us, and it makes sense that if Christ and His Apostles tell us much about heaven, how our new bodies will be, how God will finally judge the world at the end of the age, he would have to also give us more detail on the "flip side of the coin".

We are told much more in the N.T. about demons, demonic activity, Satan's purposes with human government (in Matthew especially), and of course where all these wicked beings and the wicked humans will go after the consummation occurs (especially in 1 and 2 Thess., 2 Pet. Jude and Revelation). Of course we are given hints of these things in Daniel, (and we actually have greater detail about "end times" human battles and governments in the O.T. prophets) and a few of the minor prophets, but since the concept of hell is tied into resurrection of the dead, and this concept is much more fully examined in light of Christ's Resurrection and subsequent judgment of the world at the consummation, of necessity the concept of hell is going to get more treatment in the N.T.

But on top of just the fact of progressive revelation, one other reason that hell is mentioned in the N.T. more than the O.T. is that the events are closer to consummation, and many theologians think that our concept of Hell (especially as outlined by Jesus in the Gospels) is really a description of the Lake of Fire (see for example, Matt. 18:8 and Mark 9:43-48). Since the Lake of Fire is currently not in use (and will not be so until the events of Rev. 19:20 and 20:10-15) and won't be fully utilized until the Great White Throne judgment, and since the Lake of Fire is not mentioned until Rev. 19:20, there was no need to get into the concept of the differentiation of the two in O.T. times, or even in early Apostolic times. Remember also that until the time of Christ's resurrection (contrast the parable in Luke 16 to 2 Cor. 5:8) the condition of an Abraham's Bosom Sheol for the righteous and a Sheol (in Luke 16:23 linked with Hades in the N.T.) for the wicked was in place, but now when a Christian dies, he is present with the Lord in heaven. Therefore something had to have changed between O.T. times and the resurrection of Christ, in regards to where righteous souls went after death. When you read through the O.T., there is a concept of being with God after death (Job 19:25-26, Psalm 16:9-11), but as stated earlier, it appears that this concept was thought to occur at the time of the end or the end of the age. Before then, it seems to appear that O.T. saints thought that they would just sleep until the final resurrection of the just in death (2 Sam. 7:12, 2 Kings 20:21, Job 14:10-12, Ps 6:5 30:9 88:10,11 and Isa. 38:17-19), or if they thought of an afterlife, it was one of being with family and (maybe?) God (Gen. 15:15, 49:29, Psa. 16:11 if viewed in this light, Psa. 17:15). Therefore since we are not looking forward to a promise, but backwards to a Savior, and since we know that Savior will also judge the world and that those not written in His book of Life will be cast into the Lake of Fire (along with Hades and death), whereas the O.T. saints did not know this, or knew only dimly and in part, we can expect there to be a fuller revelation of what these things are, both heaven and hell in the N.T..





I am surprised you have claimed to base your beliefs on evidence, when you cannot provide evidence to suport your claim the NT was written by greeks and romans [of course some were roman citizens like paul] . I do not believe jesus died and came back simply because the bible says so. However that is for a future thread. I will ask if you have anything to say about the op's topic of How Could God Send Those he Loves to Hell?, I would love to discus them.

[Husar]

Yup, no matter how good you think you are, you still live in this fallen world.

Why does he not make the fallen world unfallen? Isn't he all-powerful?

[Fragony]

There is no evidence that parts of the NT were Roman propaganda, some historians suspect it.

[rory_20_uk]

Very unspecific so i cannot respond not sure what you are saying here. I would suggest you have made clear that you have never actually read the bible. As for the claims of genocide in the OT I would love for you to comment on its relevant thread.

Did God Command genocide During the Conquest of Canaan?
https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showt...uest-of-Canaan
But as for this thread, do you have any comments on why is There Death and Suffering if God is all Loving? if so i would also love to discus that.

Thank you for offering your suggestions. As with so much, you are incorrect and based your assumptions on limited data. I have read from several versions of the bible (no, not cover to cover) ranging from the Coptic to the St James, as well as more new and literal versions. I've also noted that there are some which miss large sections out and am very aware that they are all significantly different to each other. I note that you are more interested in evading answering questions on theology and would rather focus on the philosophy based on the extremely shaky grounds that everything based on an as-yet unnamed version of the Bible is to be taken as completely factually accurate and we are to have some fun and games pulling out quotes.

[rory_20_uk]

Total realism, I never claimed to base my beliefs on evidence. To do so and to think others do is, well, moronic. A belief is something that is not bound by evidence. You appear to neither have the manners to ask nor the wit to infer that I am Agnostic

I am happy to critique the body of "evidence" - perhaps have a discussion on the canonical process, the politics that went on and so forth and the reasons that these decisions were made to fit the needs of the geopolitical reality and hence the hangover of these vestiges to today.

There is no evidence that parts of the NT were Roman propaganda, some historians suspect it.

There is precious evidence for most of it. Interpreting any text that has gone so many edits to the point where large parts of the original texts are only known from senior church officials at the time declaring them heretical is nonsensical. Of course, discussing the reasons for the creation of the versions that were created it itself has value.

[Fragony]

The definitive gutenberg-bible was probably made for a reason, could also justt be handy because of the invention of printing books. That a lot of it has been lost or altered makes perfect sense to me though, theory is that christian forves had to be pacified. It doesn;t seem all that outlandish to me

[Gilrandir]

Are you on any Tolkien forums?

No.

what have you read of tolkien?

Almost all there is to read. My PhD thesis was based on analysis of his Legendarium.

But how could you support a literal fire in this case?

I can't. But I equally can't see any proofs it is otherwise. So since one can't prove the use of metaphor, one must abide by the literal meaning of the word used.

Yes he knew what would happen. No it was not his intention or will. He willed a creation with free will to chose to follow him and not to sin.

Yet he knew Adam would sin. He was meant to sin. It was his "function" in the paradise. If he was meant to, he wasn't to blame. Just like Judas - his "function" was to betray Jesus. Without Judas there would have been no resurrection. Thus both can't be blamed for what they have done. Hence turning Adam out was senseless and heartless.

[total relism]

Why does he not make the fallen world unfallen? Isn't he all-powerful?

Now I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away. Also there was no more sea. 2 Then I, John, saw the holy city, New Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. 3 And I heard a loud voice from heaven saying, “Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and He will dwell with them, and they shall be His people. God Himself will be with them and be their God. 4 And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes; there shall be no more death, nor sorrow, nor crying. There shall be no more pain, for the former things have passed away.”
5 Then He who sat on the throne said, “Behold, I make all things new.”
-Revelations 21 1-5


The wolf will live with the lamb,
the leopard will lie down with the goat,
the calf and the lion and the yearling together;
and a little child will lead them.
7 The cow will feed with the bear,
their young will lie down together,
and the lion will eat straw like the ox.
8 The infant will play near the cobra’s den,
the young child will put its hand into the viper’s nest.
9 They will neither harm nor destroy
on all my holy mountain,
for the earth will be filled with the knowledge of the LORD
-Isiah 11 6-9

he will swallow up death forever.
The Sovereign Lord will wipe away the tears
from all faces;
he will remove his people’s disgrace
from all the earth.
The Lord has spoken.
-Isiah 25.8

[Gilrandir]

Yes. But not before the fall.

I don't believe the notion of sin is applicable to anyone but humans. Other wise one will claim that trees, robots and oceans can sin.

The reason to be good is it is what god asks of us, out of love we try and obey him.

And yet he gives no surety we will not suffer even if we love and obey him.

Generally speaking the context will clarify any text used to try and force any contradiction. Your first is to take out of its context and claim god unjustly punishes children for the sins of the fathers.

I don't need a context to understand a phrase "jealous God". It is quite telling in itself.

Sins of the fathers punish the children?

Fathers shall not be put to death for their children, nor children put to death for their fathers; each is to die for his own sin.
Deut. 24:16

As I have remarked, Bible is full of contradictory statements, so trying to score a point by quoting it will be countered by another quote with a completely opposite sense.

Yes God gets angry and jealous. I said he was loving. His love causes anger and jealousy. Think of your wife [assuming you are married or girlfriend or what ever] and she leaves you, breaks her covenant with you where she swore to be faithful, and cheated on you with other men. Wouldn't your love cause you to be Jealous and angry?

See above.

Gods jealousy is not the same as human jealousy

I think you will see that his anger is not a human kind of anger

Is is what humans assume.

a wrong assumption, it assumes he has not done anything about it, a very false assumption as my op showed.

He interferes now and then, but most of the time he just watches unfolding of history to the bitter end.

great point. However those miracles of jesus were to show him the son of god, not normative way of life. If it were normal noone would know what a miracle was. You need a standard way of laws to operate so the creator can show he is who he claims to be.

If those miracles happened on a regular basis THIS would become a standard way of laws to operate. So people would be aware of omnipresent God ready to always lend a helping hand and stop mischief.

[total relism]

Total realism, I never claimed to base my beliefs on evidence. To do so and to think others do is, well, moronic. A belief is something that is not bound by evidence. You appear to neither have the manners to ask nor the wit to infer that I am Agnostic

I am happy to critique the body of "evidence" - perhaps have a discussion on the canonical process, the politics that went on and so forth and the reasons that these decisions were made to fit the needs of the geopolitical reality and hence the hangover of these vestiges to today.



There is precious evidence for most of it. Interpreting any text that has gone so many edits to the point where large parts of the original texts are only known from senior church officials at the time declaring them heretical is nonsensical. Of course, discussing the reasons for the creation of the versions that were created it itself has value.

This kind of posts just reassure me that large portions of the population accept things they are told and cannot support them other than repete the same stuff they were told to believe. It seems I think some think the da vinci code was actually history. This thread more than any needs a translation of the bible thread to be done. Please allow me the time to address each issue one at a time.

[total relism]

No.



Almost all there is to read. My PhD thesis was based on analysis of his Legendarium.




I can't. But I equally can't see any proofs it is otherwise. So since one can't prove the use of metaphor, one must abide by the literal meaning of the word used.





Yet he knew Adam would sin. He was meant to sin. It was his "function" in the paradise. If he was meant to, he wasn't to blame. Just like Judas - his "function" was to betray Jesus. Without Judas there would have been no resurrection. Thus both can't be blamed for what they have done. Hence turning Adam out was senseless and heartless.

That is to bad. Their are some good ones if your interested.

http://www.thetolkienforum.com/index.php
http://newboards.theonering.net/foru...erl/gforum.cgi
http://forum.barrowdowns.com/index.php?



Holy crap that is great. I have read more of him as a person as i wanted to get to know the mind that created middle earth. But I am now getting into the lore aspects of it. I will be starting the histories of ME next. I would love to talk with you on some of this stuff. In fact I am going to make a thread on a subject on this forum and would love your expert evaluation of it. I will post it.

Does the Silmarillion Contradict Third age History?
https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showt...post2053775601
In Search of Lore Accurate Size of a Mumakil
https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showt...e-of-a-Mumakil



I just think the passage is clear they were not literally burnt. Seems to indicate non literal fire. Or at least one that does not consume physical bodies.


Both judas and adam were guilty and rebelled against god. Adam was never meant to sin, he was meant to live eternally in relationship with god. His proper function was to follow god and be a steward of earth, eat good food and have sex. His own free will caused the fall. God chose a world with free will and thus accepted the future fall of man. Judas worked on his own choice as well. God uses the bad choices of mankind to do his work yes, but they disobey on their own. A great example is jospeh in egypt. His brothers did evil and sold him into slavery, but god used that for good. But god does not approve of what they did.

As for you, you meant evil against me, but God meant it for good, to bring it about that many people[a] should be kept alive, as they are today.
-Gen 50.20

[Husar]

Now I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away. Also there was no more sea. 2 Then I, John, saw the holy city, New Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. 3 And I heard a loud voice from heaven saying, “Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and He will dwell with them, and they shall be His people. God Himself will be with them and be their God. 4 And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes; there shall be no more death, nor sorrow, nor crying. There shall be no more pain, for the former things have passed away.”
5 Then He who sat on the throne said, “Behold, I make all things new.”
-Revelations 21 1-5


The wolf will live with the lamb,
the leopard will lie down with the goat,
the calf and the lion and the yearling together;
and a little child will lead them.
7 The cow will feed with the bear,
their young will lie down together,
and the lion will eat straw like the ox.
8 The infant will play near the cobra’s den,
the young child will put its hand into the viper’s nest.
9 They will neither harm nor destroy
on all my holy mountain,
for the earth will be filled with the knowledge of the LORD
-Isiah 11 6-9

he will swallow up death forever.
The Sovereign Lord will wipe away the tears
from all faces;
he will remove his people’s disgrace
from all the earth.
The Lord has spoken.
-Isiah 25.8

Yes, but why wait >2000 years?

[total relism]

Yes, but why wait >2000 years?

I ask the same thing. But the bible says god wants all to be saved and all to hear the gospel.

8 But, beloved, do not forget this one thing, that with the Lord one day is as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. 9 [B]The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance.
2 peter 3 8-9

He desires all men to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth"
-1Tim. 2.4

And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.
Mark 16.15

[Husar]

I ask the same thing. But the bible says god wants all to be saved and all to hear the gospel.

8 But, beloved, do not forget this one thing, that with the Lord one day is as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. 9 [B]The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance.
2 peter 3 8-9

He desires all men to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth"
-1Tim. 2.4

And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.
Mark 16.15

But who are "all"? Is there some stash of unborn souls somehwere that he needs to deplete before he can bring about the end? What if we were to nuke the entire planet before that happens? Would he prevent that from happening? If so, would that be a way to irrefutably prove his existence, by trying to nuke all of humanity? Didn't Paul expect judgment day to come during his lifetime anyway?

[total relism]

First i want to thank you for your honest look at my threads and sharing your thoughtful disagreements with them.

I don't believe the notion of sin is applicable to anyone but humans. Other wise one will claim that trees, robots and oceans can sin.

I do believe animals sin as they have spirts or souls i forget witch. People have body/spirit/soul, animals have body/spirit or soul [forget] oceans/trees [i love trees] have physical bodies. Tress are amazing i must say, and tolkien was more correct on ents than most think. well worth the read amazing.

Talking Trees—Secrets of Plant Communication
https://answersingenesis.org/biology...talking-trees/

And yet he gives no surety we will not suffer even if we love and obey him.

In fact the opposite, he assures us we will suffer.

“I am sending you out like sheep among wolves.
You will be hated by everyone because of me
matt 10 16,22

“Then they will deliver you up to tribulation and kill you, and you will be hated by all nations for My name’s sake.
Matthew 24.9

"Drinking beer is easy. Trashing your hotel room is easy. But being a Christian, that's a tough call. That's rebellion."
-Alice Cooper


18 “If the world hates you, keep in mind that it hated me first. 19 If you belonged to the world, it would love you as its own. As it is, you do not belong to the world, but I have chosen you out of the world. That is why the world hates you.
john 15 18-19


Just as it is written, "FOR YOUR SAKE WE ARE BEING PUT TO DEATH ALL DAY LONG; WE WERE CONSIDERED AS SHEEP TO BE SLAUGHTERED."
Romans 8.36

Are they servants of Christ?--I speak as if insane--I more so; in far more labors, in far more imprisonments, beaten times without number, often in danger of death.
2 Corinthians 11.23

"You will be hated by all because of My name, but it is the one who has endured to the end who will be saved.
matt 11.22

"He who has found his life will lose it, and he who has lost his life for My sake will find it.
matt 11.39

many more but you get the point.

I don't need a context to understand a phrase "jealous God". It is quite telling in itself.

Agreed god is a jealous god as the bible clearly says. And in what way is god jealous? what kind of jealousy is it? is it in a manner inconstant with a loving god? or is it because of his love? the context can help us understand that. Otherwise some might use it and create a false context and try and make his jealousy the way that some humans become jealous over things they should not.

As I have remarked, Bible is full of contradictory statements, so trying to score a point by quoting it will be countered by another quote with a completely opposite sense.

Once more I would suggest it is because you have ignored the context and your claim of children being punished for the fathers sin is a great example of this. In fact I will make a thread on supposed biblical contradictions where you can post your best examples as can any other poster. I will than help clarify the supposed contradictions. I have done so with many hundreds of them and they all result from usually lack of theological understanding, slight translations issues [usually always from the king james written in English 400 years ago] and lack of context. But that is for another thread.

Is is what humans assume.

?

He interferes now and then, but most of the time he just watches unfolding of history to the bitter end.

Agreed. Their is now a great separation between us and him.

If those miracles happened on a regular basis THIS would become a standard way of laws to operate. So people would be aware of omnipresent God ready to always lend a helping hand and stop mischief.

So you are saying you wish jesus was always around to heal the sick etc. He always told people this was not his mission as they just wanted to get well, he wanted their eternity with him, far more important.