Shogun 2 Total War silly questions

[paleologos]

What if the engine of the new game is so much better than the engine of M2TW?
Does this mean that development on EB2 will stop with the purpose of making EB3?
I don't know what to keep my fingers crossed for...

[abou]

Oh Zeus no!

[Apázlinemjó]

What if the engine of the new game is so much better than the engine of M2TW?
Does this mean that development on EB2 will stop with the purpose of making EB3?
I don't know what to keep my fingers crossed for...

There is no "if" at Sega, they won't let the CA to release a moddable game. Btw, there won't be EB3, that was announced by the team a few months ago now. Chill, there will be EB2.

[stratigos vasilios]

Btw, there won't be EB3, that was announced by the team a few months ago now.

That's a shame :P

[seienchin]

That's a shame :P

Maybe EBII will be perfect, so no need for EBIII^^

[stratigos vasilios]

I don't think the word maybe should be used. It WILL be perfect.

[Krusader]

There won't be an EB3. Not because we are fed up (if that was the case, we'd stop EB2), but because modding is actually very time-consuming and most of us have other commitments in life too (family, girlfriends, other hobbies etc.) and after all we work on EB2 during our free time, which includes aforementioned hobbies. Lack of time coupled with fewer members on EB2 than EB1 and that future TW titles are much less moddable than previous titles = No EB3.

[vartan]

Pigs fly before EB3 is ever started.

[Ibrahim]

There is no "if" at Sega, they won't let the CA to release a moddable game. Btw, there won't be EB3, that was announced by the team a few months ago now. Chill, there will be EB2.

and of course, the silly *persons* at CA won't even release a sourcode for their older games. so that avenue is also blocked-bigtime. honestly, what's with their paranoia about allowing their newer programs to be modded, or releasing source codes for older games?

I do recall an attempt to petition CA for a medieval:total war source code (sice the game is older-much older-than 5 years), to which I was involved, and put in good reasons for providing such a thing (incentivise for buying vanilla, greater appreciation for product, it doesn't hurt the company financially (just ask ID-they released source codes for the first 3 quakes)), etc, etc).

alas, it came to naught as far as I can tell

[Intranetusa]

The developers at CA will realize that EB1 is better than the original RTW game, and EB2 is better than MTW2, so they will hire the entire EB team to make a historically accurate TW game...

One can dream... :D

[Hannibal Khan the Great]

and of course, the silly *persons* at CA won't even release a sourcode for their older games. so that avenue is also blocked-bigtime. honestly, what's with their paranoia about allowing their newer programs to be modded, or releasing source codes for older games?

I do recall an attempt to petition CA for a medieval:total war source code (sice the game is older-much older-than 5 years), to which I was involved, and put in good reasons for providing such a thing (incentivise for buying vanilla, greater appreciation for product, it doesn't hurt the company financially (just ask ID-they released source codes for the first 3 quakes)), etc, etc).

alas, it came to naught as far as I can tell

I'm actually thinking Sega, and not CA, is behind this. Notice how after Rome - after CA switched from Activision to Sega - the modding capability has decreased drastically. Even Medieval 2 was not very moddable without the unpacker supplied in the files. And with Empire and Nap, it's gone into the abyss.

[Ludens]

I'm actually thinking Sega, and not CA, is behind this. Notice how after Rome - after CA switched from Activision to Sega - the modding capability has decreased drastically. Even Medieval 2 was not very moddable without the unpacker supplied in the files. And with Empire and Nap, it's gone into the abyss.

I think part of the reason is that CA ditched their own unpackers for third-party tools, which they do not own and can therefor not release to the public. AFAIK that is the reason why the promised modding tools for M2:TW did not materialize (the obvious question being why CA promised this in the first place).

[Fluvius Camillus]

Over here... I want to ask a silly Shogun question (as the title implies)!

Will there be Lorica Segmentata?

~Fluvius

[Ibrahim]

I think part of the reason is that CA ditched their own unpackers for third-party tools, which they do not own and can therefor not release to the public. AFAIK that is the reason why the promised modding tools for M2:TW did not materialize (the obvious question being why CA promised this in the first place).

they didn't think that Sega would be run by *****? if what Hannibal up there says (which, in light of CA's business history, is most certainly true), then it is evident that their new leaders essentially scrapped their packers, in favor of their ulra paranoid locks and packs, sometime after the buyout of CA to Sega. in other words, against CA's will?

I'm still dubious that it was against CA's will though...ID still helps on and off with modding the quake series, even after their own buyout last year.

[Foot]

It wasn't sega and it wasn't against CA's will (for MTW2 at least). Developing new file formats that hold the full information required for the engine to show the game world as it is meant to be is difficult to do, and CA used third-party software to achieve this. They had thought that they could release convertors to the public, however there was apparently some issues surrounding the release of what are essentially property of another country. I imagine that there would have been a licensing fee that, at the end of the day, could not be paid and so CA were unable to release the appropriate tools as they originally said.

I don't know the reasons behind Empire's unmoddability, but speculation based on flawed and biased views of how a game is created is hardly worthy of posting. CA and/or SEGA bashing isn't really required here. Get back on topic or move we'll move it elsewhere.

Foot

[Ludens]

I don't know the reasons behind Empire's unmoddability, but speculation based on flawed and biased views of how a game is created is hardly worthy of posting. CA and/or SEGA bashing isn't really required here. Get back on topic or move we'll move it elsewhere.

What he said. I only want to add that the adoption of third-party software is not SEGA's decision, nor would it come from a desire to frustrate modders. Modders aren't a threat to the gaming industry; quite the opposite in fact.

[Krusader]

What he said. I only want to add that the adoption of third-party software is not SEGA's decision, nor would it come from a desire to frustrate modders. Modders aren't a threat to the gaming industry; quite the opposite in fact.

Some hold this view, but others do not. I read an interview some years ago (can't find it anymore) where an Activision rep said they really did not want people playing older games, as they would rather see gamers move on to new releases. (In my opinion that just showed that many of the higher-ups in games industry don't understand gamers, seemingly comparing them to moviegoers.
On a similar note, some higher-ups most likely view mods as a threat to DLC profits too.

[Ibrahim]

What he said. I only want to add that the adoption of third-party software is not SEGA's decision, nor would it come from a desire to frustrate modders. Modders aren't a threat to the gaming industry; quite the opposite in fact.

well, if you all put it that way, I'm convinced.

[Ludens]

Some hold this view, but others do not. I read an interview some years ago (can't find it anymore) where an Activision rep said they really did not want people playing older games, as they would rather see gamers move on to new releases. (In my opinion that just showed that many of the higher-ups in games industry don't understand gamers, seemingly comparing them to moviegoers.
On a similar note, some higher-ups most likely view mods as a threat to DLC profits too.

Both are fair points, although I wonder if DLC are big money-spinners right now. Personally, I think the comments of Activision's boss indicate personal arrogance rather than company policy. I mean: what kind of response did he expect? The gaming press certainly didn't appreciate his remarks.

[Lvcretivs]

[...]Personally, I think the comments of Activision's boss indicate personal arrogance rather than company policy.[...]

Well, that may play a role, but I don't really think so...
As well made mods are immensely increasing the 'replay value' of an technically 'obsolete' game - without incurring additional profits for the distributors - it's only rational company policy to 'encourage' gamers to shift to more 'modern' games which are - unsurprisingly - more specifically geared towards lucrative DLC distribution - Shogun 2: Total War will be a prime example, just think of all those possible, nicely portioned add-ons (Imjin war etc. ...) - DLC, which already makes up a significant share of console games-based profits.
The more the technical capacities of modders grow and the more sophisticated modding communities are releasing high-quality mods [eg. EBII, ...), the more major game developers have to think of them as economically dangerous competitors - after all, the buyer incentive 'developer-made = better quality' is rapidly losing it's edge as more and more average players are introduced to mods which are quite objectively 'better' and more enjoyable as the unmodified game. If the developers are intent to receive credits for and garner profits from their own creations rather than for distributing a game engine as 'mod basis', they'll have to 'curb' the moddability of their games...either, rather inadvertently, by sheer technical complexity and negligence (ETW) or intentionally...

[vartan]

When you say significant, how much are we talking about here? How much of profits/revenue whatnot comes from DLC?

[ziegenpeter]

There won't be an EB3. Not because we are fed up (if that was the case, we'd stop EB2), but because modding is actually very time-consuming and most of us have other commitments in life too (family, girlfriends, other hobbies etc.)

Tsssssssssssss, as if...

[Cambyses]

Well, that may play a role, but I don't really think so...
As well made mods are immensely increasing the 'replay value' of an technically 'obsolete' game - without incurring additional profits for the distributors - it's only rational company policy to 'encourage' gamers to shift to more 'modern' games which are - unsurprisingly - more specifically geared towards lucrative DLC distribution - Shogun 2: Total War will be a prime example, just think of all those possible, nicely portioned add-ons (Imjin war etc. ...) - DLC, which already makes up a significant share of console games-based profits.
The more the technical capacities of modders grow and the more sophisticated modding communities are releasing high-quality mods [eg. EBII, ...), the more major game developers have to think of them as economically dangerous competitors - after all, the buyer incentive 'developer-made = better quality' is rapidly losing it's edge as more and more average players are introduced to mods which are quite objectively 'better' and more enjoyable as the unmodified game. If the developers are intent to receive credits for and garner profits from their own creations rather than for distributing a game engine as 'mod basis', they'll have to 'curb' the moddability of their games...either, rather inadvertently, by sheer technical complexity and negligence (ETW) or intentionally...

Its interesting comparing the TW franchise with, say, the Civilization series. Although Im no expert in the gaming industry, I cant think of any other developer that actually released mods on the same CD as their vanilla version and so positively encourages modding activity, even consulting the modding community on future releases. When you see the success of Civ, you do wonder why more developers dont follow suit.

Having said that M2TW does have some excellent (and stable!) mods already released however. Mainly thanks to the added utilities from Kingdoms IMO. Let's hope EBII can be added to that list shortly.

[Skullheadhq]

Tsssssssssssss, as if...

I always thought that if EB members mentioned their girlfriends, they were referring to EBII.

[Ludens]

As well made mods are immensely increasing the 'replay value' of an technically 'obsolete' game - without incurring additional profits for the distributors - it's only rational company policy to 'encourage' gamers to shift to more 'modern' games which are - unsurprisingly - more specifically geared towards lucrative DLC distribution - Shogun 2: Total War will be a prime example, just think of all those possible, nicely portioned add-ons (Imjin war etc. ...) - DLC, which already makes up a significant share of console games-based profits.

I agree with your logic, but I am not sure about your assumptions. Well-made mods do increase the replayability; but sufficiently for the many buyers to be still playing the game 18 months later when the next game comes out? Most gamers buy a new game every month or two. Any mod that is that good would probably have a noticeable effect on the sales of the first game; and likely encourage people to buy the second game. How many of us have bought M2:TW or intend to do so for the sake of EB2?

Mods can be a threat to DLC, I agree, but just how much revenue are we talking about here? Personally, I question if DLC is worth the developers' time in the first place: they should be focusing on the next game, or the next expansion, rather than serving up skin-packs and minor campaigns. In other words: DLC is always going to be overpriced to make it worth it for the developers. This being the case, even without mods available DLC will never be a major source of income.

[Lvcretivs]

[...] Well-made mods do increase the replayability; but sufficiently for the many buyers to be still playing the game 18 months later when the next game comes out? [...]

A valid point, but this seems actually be the case with R:TW - four years after it's release - which evidently has a fairly thriving fan/modding community with major projects both announced and released. On the other hand - are eg. the 'hardcore' EB I players really statistically representative?

Mods can be a threat to DLC, I agree, but just how much revenue are we talking about here? [...]

That's quite a critical point - I completely agree with you that such an 'analysis', if based on rather shaky, probably unrealistic assumptions about expected profits shouldn't be taken very seriously - but this article, focusing on console games,as well as the second half of this article could possibly clear up the issue - and the underlying economical/PR concepts - a bit (insofar as these aspects are transferable to PC strategy games...). I confess, I'm not very good at economics, so don't build on my reasoning...;)

[...] Personally, I question if DLC is worth the developers' time in the first place: they should be focusing on the next game, or the next expansion, rather than serving up skin-packs and minor campaigns. In other words: DLC is always going to be overpriced to make it worth it for the developers. This being the case, even without mods available DLC will never be a major source of income.

Again a perfectly valid and convincing point, that raises an rather interesting (cf. the OP ;), speculative question: What if DLC should rather be seen as instrument of an medial 'image policy', creating the illusion of 'customers/fanbase support' in an desperate attempt to reestablish the endangered 'qualitative superiority' of SEGA/Activision? A further, if not primary purpose of distributing DLC could as well be effective camouflage of 'creative/technical stagnation' on the developer's part - a situation owned to the TW franchise's peculiar position on the genre crossroads between RTS and TBS - eg. compensating the lack of advanced strategic/tactical AI with cosmetic 'eyecandy' and new 'features' geared towards an not so discerning audience...?

EDIT: A rather interesting and critical blog entry about 'Sun Tzu as an AI Design Guide?'

[MisterFred]

I don't buy Total War games any more unless there's a mod I want to play. I didn't get Medieval 2 until I heard EB II was coming out, and I'm pretty sure I'll never buy Empire Total War. Unfortunately, there's no way for the companies to know this. It's one of those invisible statistics. Far simpler to just assume that people playing older mods when your new game comes out are not buying the new game - that's probably what I look like to them.

But the truth of the matter is I've never trusted CA's vanilla campaigns ever since war dogs were, apparently, the most powerful unit on the ancient era battlefield. Which is a shame, since I genuinely enjoyed the Shogun Total War single player (no sieges, yay!).

From everything I've read, I made the right decision. I mean, who wants to play an Empire-era game where the AI can't manage a naval invasion or send the Europeans after India? And really, Sun Tzu as an AI design guide? That's a steaming pile of bullcrap - elephant sized. Programming an AI is genuinely hard, but knowing the basics of what you want it to do isn't. Pure propaganda, especially in a game where espionage is so basic.

[moonburn]

or diplomacy i bought 3 cd´s of rtw 2 for eb1 and only reason i bought mtw2 was for eb2 cause their demo didn´t really appealed to me that much

another thing developers should remember is that most players pc isn´t state of the art and building hard to handle games for computers between 5 to 2 years old is putting aside a major part of their player basis i had to buy a newlaptop for mtw2 and i think i will have to buy another when eb2 comes out cause this is already giving me problems (and this makes me think of markets like china who average income is 146 euros per month i believe or indonesia or india or other places outside europe america and japan wich are basically 80% of the worlds population and are markets being ignored )

the best games are not the one´s with the best graphics it´s the one´s like eb1 that were made so that the makers could enjoy themselfs but until game developers understand that the best profit is the long term profit and not this short term blast that creates trash we´re stuck in this cycle of quick profit frustate the gamers and when something new comes along everyone changes to the new platform and the cycle begins again (one would have hoped that sega had learned it´s lesson due to their past history in the console world agaisnt nintendo and sony )

[Ludens]

A valid point, but this seems actually be the case with R:TW - four years after it's release - which evidently has a fairly thriving fan/modding community with major projects both announced and released. On the other hand - are eg. the 'hardcore' EB I players really statistically representative?

I doubt it. EB has been downloaded 10.000 times, but most of those probably played the mod for a month or two and then moved on. How many actually played the mod for longer than a year? I also wonder if the popularity of R:TW mods has something to do with dissatisfaction about the way the series is going. Every new instalment has ambitious new features, yet the developers can't get the basics right: balancing and A.I.

That's quite a critical point - I completely agree with you that such an 'analysis', if based on rather shaky, probably unrealistic assumptions about expected profits shouldn't be taken very seriously - but this article, focusing on console games,as well as the second half of this article could possibly clear up the issue - and the underlying economical/PR concepts - a bit (insofar as these aspects are transferable to PC strategy games...).

Interesting. I admit I am out of depth here too.

What if DLC should rather be seen as instrument of an medial 'image policy', creating the illusion of 'customers/fanbase support' in an desperate attempt to reestablish the endangered 'qualitative superiority' of SEGA/Activision?

Possible, although it would be akin to solving a problem by denying it. Then again, corporations aren't always rational about threads towards their position, as Activision's boss has proved.

EDIT: A rather interesting and critical blog entry about 'Sun Tzu as an AI Design Guide?'

I quite agree. Sun Tzu's work is not innovative: it is timeless because he wrote down the basic principles of strategy. For that matter: the A.I. of the original Shogun was based on Sun Tzu. Did CA forget about him in the games they made in between? Or are they just attempting to restore the fanbase's faith in their ability to produce a strong A.I. opponent?

[darius_d]

Well, I think that modding-friendly games will win eventually. There are two economic reasons behind that.

First - development costs and brand loyalty. Simply, it is too costly for developers to do all the job by themselves, something will be neglected. Workload is expensive and they never have a chance to beat community about that. Empire and Napoleon - two buggy unmoddable titles couldn't prove it better. Instead, they should create a solid platform on which community could add up as they wish.

Second - the business model. The coming future is dramatically changing, apparently everything is going into the cloud, especially for pc (note shogun 2 will be released on pc only).
Sooner or later buying CD will be replaced, perhaps by subscriptions. So this should be a good news for modding-friendly games. Subscription model seems to suit best to attract huge crowds willing to play their favorite era for a long period of time, as RTW proved.

So, if we talk about Shogun 2 I hope they are aware of some great mods created by the community.
But first of all, I hope they noticed competition - like Takeda 3 by Magitech. Technically, it's annoyingly outdated, flawed and unpolished but conceptually much superior game than CA titles.