Legion vs. Phalanx online battle analysis

[Βελισάριος]

The other thread was getting too confusing and clotted with too many different topics.

Therefore, I created this one expressly for the purpose of discussing the outcome of the various battles fought.
Fas est et ab hoste doceri. As the Romans would say.

Here are the replays of the battle fought so far:

To view:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Run EB, then go to "Load Game" and click "Load Battle Replay".

To view them, you first have to put them into your replay folder. That should be [RTW folder name]/EB/replays
[Or, apparently, if you have Vista, hell-knows-where.] If you don't have the folder, you can create it yourself.
Or, play any random battle you choose and the thread should create itself.

Just for fun

• Ekdromoi suck: Antisocialmunky and Phalanx300
• Elephants galore: IrishHitman (Macedonia) + tsidneku (Seleucid Empire) vs. Phalanx300 + antisocialmunkey (Roman Republic)
• Cataphracts are useless Antisocialmunky and Βελισάριος at the Temple of Artemis
• Peltastai Makedonikoi FTW! Placeholder for that one that Anti and I forgot to save.
• Greeks on a hill Antisocialmunky and Βελισάριος at Thermoplyai
• Macedonians at the Hot Gates IrishHitman + Potocello (Kingdom of Macedonia) vs. Lovejoy + Antisocialmunky (Roman Republic)
• Macedonia vs. Rome Ptotocello & Lovejoy vs. IrishHitman & Antisocialmunky.
• First time for everything Alexanderthegreater vs Gabeed.
• Manoeuvres, Manoeuvres IrishHitman (Rome), Anti (KH) and Potocello (Macedonia). Victory to Irish.
• Which one's the flank? Potocello (Rome) vs. IrishHitman (Makedonia).
• Which one's the flank, again? Rematch and same factions as a above.
• I'll give you something to flank! The rematch of the rematch, this time Potocello as Makedonia and Irish as Rome.
• Shakedown at Abu Simbel Irish as Rome versus Burebista (moi) as Ptolemaioi
• You can't always surprise them Tolg & Burebista (Rome) vs. IrishHitman & Phalanx300 (Macedonia)
• The controversial Phalanx box, Phalanx300 (Rome) vs. IrishHitman (Macedonia) in... Babylon, of all places?
• The Draw Irish & Potocello (Macedonians and Greeks, fighting together for the first time) vs. Tolg and Phalanx300 as Rome.
• Confusion IrishHitman (Macedonia -left game early) - Potocello (KH) - Tolg (Rome) - Phalanx (Epeiros), whose idea was it to have a free-for-all, anyway?
• Cavalry tactics Tolg vs. Potocello 1 (Rome vs. Koinon Hellenon)
• Cavalry tactics II Tolg vs. Potocello 2
• Redemption Fluvius Camillus trying to redeem himself by taking on IrishHitman's Companions.
• Leonidas who? Me proving to Maion that I AM LEONIDAS! Ahem... bit of an inside joke there. Koinon Hellenon vs. Makedonia.
• Mine's bigger than yours. Nudists in Phrygia, Triangular formations, surprises everywhere. Βελισάριος vs. ASM.

Official Tournament battles:

• Tolg vs. Phalanx300 at Mount Olympus From the first round, Victory to Rome.
• Flavius Camillus vs. Tsidneku near the Colossos of Rhodos. Victory to Pontos.
• Blxz vs. Gabeed at Abu Simbel. Victory to Ptolemaioi.
• Antisocialmunky vs. IrishHitman at Samos. Victory to Rome.
  Βελισάριος vs. Maion Maroneios in Makedonia. Victory to the home team (Makedonia).
  
  March Tournament score so far: ΕΛΛΗΝΕΣ 3 - Romani 2

[tsidneku]

Sorry, Bure -- or someone, kindly refresh my Latin for me. I'm rusty.

Fas est et ab hoste doceri. As the Romans would say.

Fas is undeclined -- I assume it's either nominative or accusative.
"It is right/just to teach _______ from the enemy."

I can't figure out where the et goes and why doceri -- to teach/show -- is used?

[desert]

I saw that quote in EB, I think. If I remember correctly, it means "It is right to learn from the enemy."

[Nachtmeister]

Sorry, Bure -- or someone, kindly refresh my Latin for me. I'm rusty.



Fas is undeclined -- I assume it's either nominative or accusative.
"It is right/just to teach _______ from the enemy."

I can't figure out where the et goes and why doceri -- to teach/show -- is used?

That's "learn", not "teach" ...

Thus, by literal meaning, the whole phrase goes
"It is appropriate to learn from the enemy".

See, the Romans were themselves aware of the fact that their greatness came from borrowing different bits of know-how from their various enemies, thus making the enemies their subjects.


*EDIT* Argh, desert you seem to have faster fingers than I.

[tsidneku]

Nevermind, I'm a dumbass. Made a mistake -- doceri is the passive infinitive; not the active. And "et" is translated "even" here.

"It is right/appropriate to be taught even by an/the enemy."

[Potocello]

This is really nice perhaps a balloon is in order?

[Βελισάριος]

"It is right to learn even from the enemy." That's right.

Funny how I made the thread to discuss battles and we start by discussing Latin

[Blxz]

Next battle done.
http://www.mediafire.com/download.php?mznniw5nmm2
beautiful battle, pure majesty. can't believe i lost so damn badly.

[Vasiliyi]

I have tried to download the videos to watch but for some reason they arent allowing me to play them. what program are you useing to watch them

[A Very Super Market]

I have no idea how to view them...

[antisocialmunky]

EB Single -> load -> watch battle replay .

[Βελισάριος]

You run EB, you go to "Load Game" click "Load Battle Replay".
They're not videos, they're RTW battle replay files.

To view them, you first have to put them into your replay folder. That should be [RTW folder name]/EB/replays
Or, apparently, if you have Vista, hell-knows-where.
If you don't have the folder, you can create it yourself.

[A Very Super Market]

Oh good god, that was stupid of me.

Thanks, mate!

[Gabeed]

Next battle done.
http://www.mediafire.com/download.php?mznniw5nmm2
beautiful battle, pure majesty. can't believe i lost so damn badly.

It was a fun battle. I think it hurt most for you when my pantodopoi chased your cavalry on the left flank away (they must have been on skirmish mode, I think). I'm sure when we have our inevitable rematch you'll be ready for them.

Incidentally, Burebista, that battle was the official tournament one between Blxz and I. Just to make that clear.

[Tolg]

You run EB, you go to "Load Game" click "Load Battle Replay".
They're not videos, they're RTW battle replay files.

To view them, you first have to put them into your replay folder. That should be [RTW folder name]/EB/replays
Or, apparently, if you have Vista, hell-knows-where.
If you don't have the folder, you can create it yourself.

Why should Vista change the location of folders/files which have absolutly nothing to do with the OS?

BTW, I'm using Vista, it's the same folder.

[Maion Maroneios]

Guys, I believe we should discuss the first round of the tournament. I'm actually surprised that no one actually cared to do this, because I can that we have some mistakes on the side of the Romani. Don't take me wrong, it hasn't anything to do with me being on the side of the Hellenes. Let me explain what I mean in points:

1) No Hastati, just Principes/Triarii on Tolg's side
2) No 'historical' numbers of troops, and by that I mean the main Roman core. Just Principes and many Triarii, the latter being only used (historically) when the situation was very, very dire AFAIK. Also, since Tolg used Pedites, he should also have used Hastati Samnitici.
3) Too many Equites Extraordinarii. WAY too many.
4) No levy phalanx on Phalanx300's side, but a reasonably balanced army nevertheless.

For those reasons, I believe this battle should be fought again. Don't want to be too strict from the start, though I hope people can understand my points and consider them at least.

Maion

[tsidneku]

Maion, while I agree with you about the historical nature of army composition, I think it will be hard to impose accurate army composition unless you lay out strictly composed armies to choose from.

Contestants will always try to form an unique/elite/most effective army. A common trend, that I myself admit to submitting to as well, is the inclusion of massive amounts of cavalry -- 4-6 units. One can argue that ratio to the standardized core of any army is massive.

[Tolg]

Guys, I believe we should discuss the first round of the tournament. I'm actually surprised that no one actually cared to do this, because I can that we have some mistakes on the side of the Romani. Don't take me wrong, it hasn't anything to do with me being on the side of the Hellenes. Let me explain what I mean in points:

1) No Hastati, just Principes/Triarii on Tolg's side
2) No 'historical' numbers of troops, and by that I mean the main Roman core. Just Principes and many Triarii, the latter being only used (historically) when the situation was very, very dire AFAIK. Also, since Tolg used Pedites, he should also have used Hastati Samnitici.
3) Too many Equites Extraordinarii. WAY too many.
4) No levy phalanx on Phalanx300's side, but a reasonably balanced army nevertheless.

For those reasons, I believe this battle should be fought again. Don't want to be too strict from the start, though I hope people can understand my points and consider them at least.

Maion

If we had made 100% (or even 65%) historical armies a rule we would have to reduce the money eve further to even give the Romans a chance of winning. Even with my elite army I don't use 40000 (still ~3500 left) This however would mean that the Greeks could only choose between having ~8 moderate units or a levy/almost levy full stack.

Basically the problem is that roman armies are much cheaper than Greek ones. All the more as the Romans have no real elite units. (Pedites are very good, but not at the level of Hetaroi.)

"Historical Tournament" sounds nice, but I doubt that it is even possible wit the RTW engine.

[antisocialmunky]

We can't really make realistic armies as the Romani because of money issues and the fact that the Successor Cavalry arms are ridiculously powerful and hard to counter with Equites due to them not having a AP weapon.

The closest I've come to it is 6 Hastati, 6 Principles, 3 Triarii, and 5 Equites Extraordinary with everything but the Hastati chevroned.

[Βελισάριος]

Maion, thanks for raising the issue.

If you look in the first message in the initial thread, you'll see your "historical army" guide (which we'll need to update for the Romans and some of the Diadochoi as well), but it's under "guidelines".

Much as I'd like perfectly historical battles, it's just not possible with the current engine, regardless of how hard the EB team might try.

So, while Tolg won't be getting any historical accuracy points, his victory point is valid.

It's nice to finally get some polemyc on the topic of battles, though.

[Silence Hunter]

We can't really make realistic armies as the Romani because of money issues and the fact that the Successor Cavalry arms are ridiculously powerful and hard to counter with Equites due to them not having a AP weapon.

The closest I've come to it is 6 Hastati, 6 Principles, 3 Triarii, and 5 Equites Extraordinary with everything but the Hastati chevroned.

Are the updates allowed? Or do you just mean one bronze chevron as mentioned in the rules?

[Phalanx300]

I only give chevrons for units to roleplay as another unit, like giving 1 unit of Spartans a chevron to play as the Hippeis. And one unit of Ekdromoi for the Skiritai(peltastai woukd be better but its not included for KH for some reason, alongside the Toxotai!)

[Aemilius Paulus]

Someone should use Fraps next time, so that the battle may be uploaded to YouTube. I hope that the lag created by it will not be too much. Oh, and also, I have heard that YouTube has a 15-minute limit, but I have seen much, much longer videos. How so?

[Gabeed]

Someone should use Fraps next time, so that the battle may be uploaded to YouTube. I hope that the lag created by it will not be too much. Oh, and also, I have heard that YouTube has a 15-minute limit, but I have seen much, much longer videos. How so?

We could use Fraps with the replay videos, and even add commentary a la Prince of Macedon. And I think Youtube has a 10 minute limit, though I've also seen longer videos before . . .

[Aemilius Paulus]

We could use Fraps with the replay videos, and even add commentary a la Prince of Macedon. And I think Youtube has a 10 minute limit, though I've also seen longer videos before . . .

Well, yes, that is what I was saying. Most of those videos that were longer happened to be of elevated importance, such as that 59 minute Time magazine interview of Putin or 40-minute lectures of some (nutjob) professor who thought that there was a Golden Age before Neolithic that was ended by a meteor (go figure). However, I have seen better lectures as well.

What about MegaVideo or DailyMotion? What limits do they have?

[Ibrahim]

Sorry, Bure -- or someone, kindly refresh my Latin for me. I'm rusty.



Fas is undeclined -- I assume it's either nominative or accusative.
"It is right/just to teach _______ from the enemy."

I can't figure out where the et goes and why doceri -- to teach/show -- is used?

"It is right to be taught from the enemy"

Doceri is not a normal indictive infinitive.

[Fluvius Camillus]

Important practice battle (copied from main thread):

Ave Competitors

To redeem myself I have practiced my tactics against another greek foe!

Fluvius Camillus vs Irishhitman

Replay of this practice match:
http://www.mediafire.com/?kltn23wk2zx

It was a very exciting (and long) battle.

Polybian Romani versus Makedonia

I employed the same tactics from the last fight against Tsidneku, this time I comitted no great errors, my tactic worked perfectly this time.

Friend and Foe, learn from this fight and use these tactics on your own risk of defeat.

First Part of the Fight
I approached the Makedonian foe, when his missile infantry targeted me I was making a run for it. I split my reserves to join the flankers. Only the principes stood in the center, evading the slow phalanx. My flanking troops were superior to his and the Makedonian right flank crumbled soon. The cavalry fight was were I also had the upper hand. After the flankers of the enemy were massacred and both our cavalry was weared out, we both withdrew from combat, reforming our shattered lines.

Second Part (long to watch)
As I watched how we both formed our lines, I see the enemy form a defensive circle, immediately I attack the enemy to stop them from gaining a strong position. A extremely long cavalry chase and minor infantry skirmishes take place. After a long chase my cavalry stops trying to kill the remaining Makedonian cavalry. Then I attack the main phalanx lines from multiple sides, I withdraw sometimes but eventually we came into long melee, wearied from the chase, my general loses his life. Enveloping the remaining phalanx we fight to the death, using some troops to fend off the cavalry. The phalanx slowly dies, then the cavalry charges a final time and my infantry defeats the cavalry. The phalanx is then doomed, they fight to the very end. Finally, victory!

We shall remember the noble commander who lost his life and hunt down the escaped enemy commander!

That was the fight!

~Roma Victrix

[Aemilius Paulus]

So you won?

[Nachtmeister]

That's "learn", not "teach" ...

Thus, by literal meaning, the whole phrase goes
"It is appropriate to learn from the enemy".

See, the Romans were themselves aware of the fact that their greatness came from borrowing different bits of know-how from their various enemies, thus making the enemies their subjects.


*EDIT* Argh, desert you seem to have faster fingers than I.

Nevermind, I'm a dumbass. Made a mistake -- doceri is the passive infinitive; not the active. And "et" is translated "even" here.

"It is right/appropriate to be taught even by an/the enemy."

This is really nice perhaps a balloon is in order?

"It is right to be taught from the enemy"

Doceri is not a normal indictive infinitive.

Yea, my bad a bit further up - otherwise it would be "fas est et ab hoste discere"...
Why not in keeping with the EB players' spirit make it "et ab hoste discere iuvat" in the first place...
But you definitely *can* phrase it "It is right to be taught by the enemy" unless I have it all
totally backwards...?

[tsidneku]

Yea, my bad a bit further up - otherwise it would be "fas est et ab hoste discere"...
Why not in keeping with the EB players' spirit make it "et ab hoste discere iuvat" in the first place...
But you definitely *can* phrase it "It is right to be taught by the enemy" unless I have it all
totally backwards...?

lol @ the Latin discourse.
Yes, they are mean the same thing idiomatically. Ab hoste as an ablative can be translated from/by/of the enemy.

Regarding your question about why Burebista didn't phrase it another way is because that particular line is from Ovid. "fas est et ab hoste doceri" -- and now that I think about it, it's because its probably in meter and that's the word order is so abnormal (not that word order means anything in Latin poetry.. lol).