Looking for info and tips regarding Koinon Hellenon

[Savriss]

Hi there,

I've only recently discovered Europa Barbarorum after a friend suggested it during my disappointment with RII. I'm really enjoying engineering a resurgence of the Koinon Hellenon but I am a little bit bewildered by the amount of new stuff, which is both exciting and intimidating. I was hoping to pick up some tips and help here.

1. Most importantly, the hoplite formations on guard mode seem pretty effective, but getting them into a fight is pretty difficult. Often one unit will be sucked into a fight and the unit besides it will remain oblivious, bare metres away from the fight. Is there any way to get them to push into a combat without breaking formation?
2. That being said, the most obvious benefit I have observed about guard mode is how much it preserves stamina. If I have to charge a flank with hoplites, is there any reason to continue using guard mode.
3. When hoplites are being fired on, is guard mode helpful?
4. Is there anything I can do to make phalanxes break faster? Even when entirely surrounded, they regularly fight to 30% strength before breaking.
5. Additionally, they seem able to reverse their spears in the middle of combat and force-push a flanking unit to a convenient distance. Is this intended or is there a way to stop it?
6. For RP purposes, I'm only sending men of Spartan blood through the appropriate training. For everyone else, how effective are schools and academies? Should new generals spend a year or two in a centre of learning before going to war?
7. Is there any way to get effective spies, such as a mechanic I am not aware of yet? The only way I've discovered so far is to have them shadow enemy units and spy on them every turn but even then, they often have very low chances to infiltrate important settlements.
8. Due to wars with Makedon and Epeiros, Athens has been stripped bare of population, from which it's only recovering almost 8 years later; I love this mechanic! However, do the other factions suffer the same issue? While I didn't have a spy able to tell me for sure, it seemed as though Makedon's last holdout was able to summon troops every turn. In the last half of the war, they lost a lot of territory very fast, so I imagine they had the money to do it but population is another matter entirely.
9. Is there any way to tell which units have secondary weapons and, if so, how effective they are? I've read that Thorakitai Hoplites have AP swords, but not Classical Hoplites.
10. Do the Thorakitai intentionally render the Thureophoroi irrelevant or am I missing something?
11. Are Ekdromoi Hoplitai good for anything?
12. The Ptolemaic dynasty is just about the only faction to my east. Is there any way to render them impotent, such as an attack on the Nile cities, or have I already lost this game? They have all the coastal land and have taken the Seleucids cities on the mass of land that includes Halicarnassus.

Regards,
Savriss.

[QuintusSertorius]

Greetings, welcome to EB!

I'll take as many of your questions as I can, though bear in mind I'm not a dev/mod and I've gleaned bits and pieces along the way.
1&2: That's guard mode working as designed. The reason for the lower fatigue is that often most of the unit isn't actually fighting. They stay in formation regardless, unless pressed by someone else pushing into it.
3: I don't think guard mode makes any difference to missile fire. Only the direction it's coming from, since the shield only protects front and left from missiles (and defensive skill does nothing against them).
4: It's a criticism sometimes levelled at EB that phalanxes are "overpowered". If you're playing on Hard or Very Hard battle difficulty, the AI is getting bonuses that make phalanxes virtually impossible to break except by attrition, which is no fun. That said, hitting them with cavalry charges (by lance-armed cavalry) from the rear will reduce numbers very quickly. Make sure you're carrying the charges out correctly, with levelled lances (there's a trumpet call and you see them drop them beforehand), from the right distance. Look up Ibrahim's thread on cavalry charges if you're not sure, there's an art to it.
5: An unfortunate artefact of the way phalanxes are programmed, nothing you can do about it.
6: Academies are good for developing governor-traits. I always park new FMs in my capital (which always has a school) for a couple of years before sending them out to get educated and pick up ancillaries. But every building has an impact. A province with roads and ports tends to improve trading ability. FMs often become devotees of the temple they spend a long time with. The game field/gymnasium increases the FM's fitness (more hit points). Much-used barracks will give them recruitment-related traits.
7: Spies need to spend their initial turns in a settlement with an Agora or better, which gets rid of the Raw Recruit trait. Leaving them in a settlement for a bit gives them the Guildmaster trait, which boosts their ability for the turn they leave, which might be enough to get them into a hard to enter settlement.
8: The AI is population-limited too, but tends to depopulate quite quickly. However, I think the script which adds population back to stop them distorting things too badly.
9: None of the hoplite units have a secondary weapon, because it's bugged. The same bug exists in M2TW as well, they charge with their secondary then switch to primary.
10: Yes, they're an evolution, though Thureophoroi have better stamina. If you're roleplaying it, you should leave Thorakitai until you've used Thureophoroi a fair bit, maybe come into contact with mail-armoured opponents like the Romani and Makedonian reformed hoplites.
11: Thureophoroi are probably better at the same job of being infantry flankers.
12: Ah, the Yellow Death. I'm afraid you've probably lost the game if they've eaten the Qarthadastim and have nearly finished off the Seleukids.

One last thing: cavalry. With KH your factional selection is rather poor; you don't even get good cavalry for your Family Member's bodyguard, like with Epeiros or Makedonia. Mercenary-wise, Curepos are brilliant mediums - they have javelins for skirmishing and lances for charges to the rear of formations. Thrakian Prodromoi are very good for shock charges to the rear, and have the stamina to do it more than a couple of time (unlike Thessalians and other heavies). Lonchophoroi are pretty good too, the Hellenistic Mercenary Generals (well worth hiring if you have type IV governments anywhere) have an upgraded version of them for their bodyguard.

[Ca Putt]

3. no, as they tend to stand a tad bit closer together it might actually increace casualties by a percent or two.
4. surrounding isn't as effective as repeated charging(in the rear). If you can get your Hands on Hippeis Xystophoroi, Prodromoi, Lonchophoroi Hippeis or Illyrioi Hippeis that would increace your chances, but even a Charge from regular Hippeis, Hipparkontistai* or Infantry can do wonders vs a wavering unit. As your Access to Fear inducing Units is limited at best try fireing some burning arrows at them. Preferably from the back or non shielded side and Preferably by cretans, but Toxotai can do that aswell. When all that comes together It's likely the enemy will flee.
6. I do the same for RP reasons ^^ - Spartans to sparta all others get their "Basic Training" in Athens.
8. yeah, I think it was 100 men at large(200 at huge) that the AI gets "refunded" when Training a unit. But as the AI sucks at citybuilding and Pop Management they still often run out of Pop.
9. yup, Secondary melee weapons tend to be used in exactly the wrong Moment^^. If hoplites had secondaries KH would be impossible to survive early on, also a reason why reformed hoplites(those with Oval shields and no javelins) suck so badly.
10. Thureophoroi are cheaper. they fill slightly different roles. as mentioned above.
11. meh, not really**. They make passable flankers when you for some odd reason don't have Thureophoroi and make passable lineholders when you don't have hoplitai. So early on their quite decent but once you can choose what Units to field, their basically a style conform flanker/chaser when you use a classical hoplite army.
12. If you manage to securure your Anatolian Holdings and become insanely rich you can field a huge navy to controll the mediterranean and Land elite City takers on thier coasts when their army is buisy marching from Alexandria to Sardis. Taking their Coastal cities and destroying everything causes them to Train mainly levy troops and you might just take all your Victory condition cities at once ;) - otherwise as QS already stated: you're doomed :D

@QuintusSertorius: Their Cav selection is not all that bad, they just lack the cav availibility in Sparta and some other cities. once you have your MICs Leveld up in the North the only Thing you have a good cav selection:
Xystophoroi are no Hetairoi but still are great chargers and pretty cheap(for elite heavy cavalry) aswell.
Illyrians also pack a reasonable Punch and are dirt cheap.
Hippakontistai may be rather weak but do wonders against Elephants and do a good Job at chasing Routers
Even the most sucky Hippeis have their uses, unlike most cav their reasonable capable in melee(against non spearmen ;) )
Just Aspidophoroi I can't use. Terrible AOR, Exceedingly expensive, no Charge, practically Peltmaks on a horse, thus they suck in sieges :D . I'd rather just get lonchophoroi + Hippakontistai.

So while their Cav selection isn't in the top 10, it's not terrible aswell, It's decent.

*tho they will most likely die if you fail to rout them on Impact ;)
**as in : there not really usefull for anything

Ps: excuse me, my autocorrect is set to german and has an interesting idea of what a noun is ;)

[V.T. Marvin]

Regarding fighting phalanxes - the best way is to pin them down from the front by some well armoured unit (hoplitai, thorakitai) and hurl a lot of javelins into their backs (peltastai, hippakontistai). The rate of casualties has a huge effect on morale - if one kills one man at a time, the unit will fight to the last one. Killing scores of them in a second (as it happens during heavy cavalry charges and massed volleys of javelins from close distance) routs the unit almost immediately. :cents:

AI gets its population replenished by the script, otherwise it would strip all its cities bare within a few turns.

Ekdromoi are quite good and versatile unit actually thanks to their speed and stamina. Do not expect them to hold out a prolonged melee with regular line infantry. Their role is to fend of skirmishers, fight cavalry, pursuit routers and flanking maneuvers.

[QuintusSertorius]

Their Cav selection is not all that bad, they just lack the cav availibility in Sparta and some other cities. once you have your MICs Leveld up in the North the only Thing you have a good cav selection:
Xystophoroi are no Hetairoi but still are great chargers and pretty cheap(for elite heavy cavalry) aswell.
Illyrians also pack a reasonable Punch and are dirt cheap.
Hippakontistai may be rather weak but do wonders against Elephants and do a good Job at chasing Routers
Even the most sucky Hippeis have their uses, unlike most cav their reasonable capable in melee(against non spearmen ;) )
Just Aspidophoroi I can't use. Terrible AOR, Exceedingly expensive, no Charge, practically Peltmaks on a horse, thus they suck in sieges :D . I'd rather just get lonchophoroi + Hippakontistai.

So while their Cav selection isn't in the top 10, it's not terrible aswell, It's decent.

*tho they will most likely die if you fail to rout them on Impact ;)
**as in : there not really usefull for anything

Ps: excuse me, my autocorrect is set to german and has an interesting idea of what a noun is ;)

As far as I'm concerned, there are only two types of useful cavalry: those with javelins and those with AP lances. If they don't have one of those, they're a waste of money, since any old light infantry will do for killing routing units (which is all cavalry who don't have one or both of those things can do).

Illyrians as you mentioned, are brilliant and good value. They not only have AP lances, but AP axes as well, which means they are extremely good at killing even heavy cavalry if they get stuck in melee (though this should be avoided if possible). I'd put them a step below Curepos, though, since they have javelins. These two are the mercs worth hiring in the early game. When you don't have cavalry generals, you really need AP lancers for breaking enemy infantry, and these are the most economical options.

Hippakontistai are good for putting javelins into the back of enemy infantry, and killing the resulting flight. Plus cheap as chips. They're good to have if you already have some AP lancers and just want to round out your cavalry options.

Xystophoroi are ridiculously expensive, and just like Thessalians are knackered after two charges. Tired cavalry are useless cavalry.

Hippeis are worthless, though. No missile weapons, no AP melee weapons, no stamina for repeated charges. All they're good for is chasing down routers, which isn't terribly useful at all. Better off saving your money for Illyrians or Curepos. Or later in the game, Lonchophoroi (who are like a superior, upgraded version of Hippeis). The only reason to recruit them is if you literally have no other cavalry options at all.

[Savriss]

Whew! Thanks for the responses, there's a lot to think on!

1. From the information gained, are Thorakitai Hoplites (spear primary, AP sword secondary) and Iphikratous Hoplitai a bad choice to replace classical hoplites with?
2. Do classical hoplites remain relevant throughout the entire game, due to this issue with secondary weapons?
3. Do hippakontistai (javelin cavalry) make much of an impact, despite their small unit size? Are they a good replace for peltasts or an accompaniment?
4. In a 'modern' army, is there any use for akontistai (unarmoured javelineers) ? I've found them largely redundant to peltasts but I occasionally miss their sheer number of javelins.

As for the Ptolemaics, things are not as lost as they seem. A spy is now scouting the area and the Seleucids are still alive deeper inland. I have largely uncontested control of the eastern Mediterranean and they show me that the Nile cities are almost unguarded, so I'm putting together an army as quickly as possible to go cause mayhem. I feel a little bad as the Ptolemaics have, thus far, been immaculately friendly allies. There's a main army and a baggage train of spares to top up units as best as possible, but reinforcements should be as easy as getting ships back and forth.
For this new army, I had the following layout planned,
2 generals, compromising 1 fearsome old bastard and his just unleashed son of 16 years old (he'll be 17 when the fleet sets sail).
4 classical hoplites.
2 Thorakitai hoplites, for AP.
1 spartan hoplite.
2 Thorakitai (the javelin ones, not the AP hoplites).
2 peltasts.
2 cretan archers.
1 rhodian slingers.
2 heavy cavalry of whatever I can dig up.

5. Should I drop the Thorakitai hoplites for more classicals or the cheaper haploi?
6. Would adding hippakontistai be too much, or rather replace the peltasts?
7. Is it worth trying to hold a Nile city, or better to raze everything and run away with the loot?

And finally,
8. Does bribing ever work on anything more than 2 unit armies?
9. Stupid Pontus people won't make peace with me even though they only have 1 province left, really?! Are there programmed hatreds?

[Ca Putt]

surely Hippeis are really not that usefull, as they don't do that much in a Charge, have no AP and no Javelins. BUT they do quite well at catching cavalry and fighting them. They are still overpriced and not at all great, but their not useless, especially not as KH, who lack Cav Generals.

Xystophoroi are however somewhat cheaper than Tessalians and just marginally weaker. They deliver a great Charge and are reasonable well armoured, sure they tire a bit to quick for EB tactics, but when you have ekdromoi or Hippeis to Keep the enemy occupied, it's doable. Generally KH has the Units to slow down the battle^^

I'd put them a step below Curepos, though, since they have javelins.

Yeah, that's fair. I was just listing Units trainable within the immediate Expansion area. Also, everybody knows Curepos are great :D

So while not top 10 their cav outranks that of the other "A Scotsman on a Horse?" factions by far(sweboz, Saba, early Romani), while not being too far behind factions like to Lusotani, late Romani Casse or Pontos*.

Edit: Oh I took to Long to post this:

1. Depends, They have their Advantages, but without proper guidance they are bugged and tend to underpreform. However they are the historical choice plus they are Superior on walls.

2. Pretty much, you could replace them as above or Reform your army to a barbarian style thorakitai army. But the Huge AOR makes insanely usefull.

3. They fool the enemy into them being hit by a cavalry unit for about a second, then they notice it's just some Hippakontistai. So when you're not sure the enemy will rout on Impact, don't let them Charge in there. - I personally consider Peltasts a bit more reliable and they can double as Line infantry in a few situations. So I would not replace them ;)

4. the best Garrison in game. And If you're desperate.

5. Nah, they may not be as reliable but the AP does help at times(use them at the flanks, not the Center)

6. They would help, they work well together with the heavy cav.

7. Probably not, unless you want to rule the world, then you might aswell start there.
btw when you take Kyrene and give it a 15-20 men garrison(garrison troops, not an elite army) it's great for distracting the AI, they will march through the desert, tieing up their armies and draining their morale.

8. sometimes.

9. The AI hates you when you have a common border, no matter their own strength. Plus they hate you by script.

*unless you are good at using Chariots, then those are great and considerably better than KH ;)

[QuintusSertorius]

Whew! Thanks for the responses, there's a lot to think on!

1. From the information gained, are Thorakitai Hoplites (spear primary, AP sword secondary) and Iphikratous Hoplitai a bad choice to replace classical hoplites with?
2. Do classical hoplites remain relevant throughout the entire game, due to this issue with secondary weapons?
3. Do hippakontistai (javelin cavalry) make much of an impact, despite their small unit size? Are they a good replace for peltasts or an accompaniment?
4. In a 'modern' army, is there any use for akontistai (unarmoured javelineers) ? I've found them largely redundant to peltasts but I occasionally miss their sheer number of javelins.

1&2: The difficulty here is that Classical Hoplites are a very good value unit. Sure they have only spears and no secondary, but they're solid and also available as mercenaries all over the place. They are durable against virtually everything bar a Macedonian-style phalanx. Even then then can hold one for a time while you smash the rear of the phalanx with cavalry. The secondary weapon issue doesn't really detract from their usefulness; they're perfect for holding the centre of a line, or covering the immediate flanks of a phalanx.
3: Hippakontistai perform a different role to Peltastai. You can't use them as flankers, but they've good for slipping around the battle line and putting javelins into the back of enemy units. That can break weaker units, and they then mop up the routers. You can also use them to (briefly) halt enemy cavalry while you mobilise your spearmen.
4: While I mostly use them as garrison troops, I do include (a single unit of) akontistai in my armies for roleplaying purposes, representing various poorer troops or Hellenised natives (they're the "Mysian javelineers" in my Pergamon army). It also increases the challenge; Peltastai are another good value unit who are not only good at their main job of skirmishing, but are also decent medium infantry. You can't really use Akontistai as flankers after they've thrown all their javelins, as you can with Peltastai. Not unless things are really desparate.

As for the Ptolemaics, things are not as lost as they seem. A spy is now scouting the area and the Seleucids are still alive deeper inland. I have largely uncontested control of the eastern Mediterranean and they show me that the Nile cities are almost unguarded, so I'm putting together an army as quickly as possible to go cause mayhem. I feel a little bad as the Ptolemaics have, thus far, been immaculately friendly allies. There's a main army and a baggage train of spares to top up units as best as possible, but reinforcements should be as easy as getting ships back and forth.
For this new army, I had the following layout planned,
2 generals, compromising 1 fearsome old bastard and his just unleashed son of 16 years old (he'll be 17 when the fleet sets sail).
4 classical hoplites.
2 Thorakitai hoplites, for AP.
1 spartan hoplite.
2 Thorakitai (the javelin ones, not the AP hoplites).
2 peltasts.
2 cretan archers.
1 rhodian slingers.
2 heavy cavalry of whatever I can dig up.

5. Should I drop the Thorakitai hoplites for more classicals or the cheaper haploi?
6. Would adding hippakontistai be too much, or rather replace the peltasts?
7. Is it worth trying to hold a Nile city, or better to raze everything and run away with the loot?

5: More classical hoplites, IMO - not only are they cheaper, but you can easily replace serious losses (after merging units) with readily available mercenary versions. Don't bother with Haploi, they're garrison troops and nothing else. Unless you want to add some roleplaying/challenge (I did that in my Epeiros game, replacing one unit of Classical with Levy to make it harder).
6: I'd say replace one unit of Kretans with Hippakontistai. One unit of Kretans is already a big advantage (they're murder on unarmoured infantry), two is easy-mode. The extra cavalry will allow you to make sure no one gets away at the end of the battle. Let them lurk behind the enemy line mopping up those routed by the heavies, while they get back into position to try again. They're also good for killing artillery, being fast and tireless. They're also available as mercenaries all over the place. As above, they're not interchangeable with Peltastai.
7: Only hold a city if you want to prolong the raid and make it a thorough cleansing of the Ptolemies' influence. Otherwise trash and move on.

What heavy cavalry are you going to go with? Illyrians aren't heavy, but perfectly suited for this sort of raid. The only point in Hippeis' favour is that they're available as mercenaries in Egypt. So you can replace the inevitable losses.

And finally,
8. Does bribing ever work on anything more than 2 unit armies?
9. Stupid Pontus people won't make peace with me even though they only have 1 province left, really?! Are there programmed hatreds?

8. I've never tried. Diplomacy generally is borked.
9. What campaign difficulty are you playing on? If H or VH virtually no diplomacy will work. Get the Force Diplomacy mod (savegame compatible) so you can make Pontos accept a ceasefire.

surely Hippeis are really not that usefull, as they don't do that much in a Charge, have no AP and no Javelins. BUT they do quite well at catching cavalry and fighting them. They are still overpriced and not at all great, but their not useless, especially not as KH, who lack Cav Generals.

Xystophoroi are however somewhat cheaper than Tessalians and just marginally weaker. They deliver a great Charge and are reasonable well armoured, sure they tire a bit to quick for EB tactics, but when you have ekdromoi or Hippeis to Keep the enemy occupied, it's doable. Generally KH has the Units to slow down the battle^^

Prodromoi are better at catching enemy cavalry and fighting them - and they're much better at delivering shock charges. Hell, even Illyrians are better at catching and killing other cavalry, due to their AP axes. Even the Eastern Hippeis are better, at least they have AP axes for melee against heavier opponents. There's a whole host of jobs cavalry can do, Hippeis aren't any good at any of them, they suffer from being excessive generalists.

Xystophoroi do deliver a great charge - once or twice. Then they're basically spectators since they're too blown to deliver another good charge. That's a very expensive way to get very little compared to a light cavalry unit who can charge again and again.

Yeah, that's fair. I was just listing Units trainable within the immediate Expansion area. Also, everybody knows Curepos are great :D

So while not top 10 their cav outranks that of the other "A Scotsman on a Horse?" factions by far(sweboz, Saba, early Romani), while not being too far behind factions like to Lusotani, late Romani Casse or Pontos*.

*unless you are good at using Chariots, then those are great and considerably better than KH ;)

Curepos are also available almost everywhere in Greece/the Balkans/Anatolia as mercs, which is another point in their favour. Those Celts sure get around.

Problem is that their immediate foes, Epeiros and Makedonia, have some of the best cavalry in the game. Same goes the Ptolemies and Seleukids, the former of which Savriss is having to deal with.

[QuintusSertorius]

I agree with Ca Putt on Kyrene - it's a great place to start from, easily defended, and has the full Hellenic roster available to it. Stick a client king in there and use it as your base of operations.

[Ca Putt]

What heavy cavalry are you going to go with? Illyrians aren't heavy, but perfectly suited for this sort of raid. The only point in Hippeis' favour is that they're available as mercenaries in Egypt. So you can replace the inevitable losses.

eventho I don't consider Hippeis TOTAL crap, I would not use them as "heavy Cavalry" dear god, I was assuming you were reffering to Lonchophoroi or Xystophoroi, because those are the only "heavy" cavalry Units the KH gets. the others are medium or light, with varying degree of usefullness ;)
If you can afford that army don't be cheap on the cav^^. Two different cav Units might not be as easy to retrain, but often do wonders when used together. As in, one unit with decent melee and one that has a great Charge.

Curepos are also available almost everywhere in Greece/the Balkans/Anatolia as mercs, which is another point in their favour. Those Celts sure get around.

yeah, there pretty awesome.

Problem is that their immediate foes, Epeiros and Makedonia, have some of the best cavalry in the game. Same goes the Ptolemies and Seleukids, the former of which Savriss is having to deal with.

sure those have better cavalry than the KH. But you don't actually have to Play their game of cav superiority. Catch their cav with your cheap cav or medium spear infantry and then poke their infantry with your lancers. You don't have to have the best cavalry, you just Need to have the right types in the right Situation.

Xystophoroi do deliver a great charge - once or twice. Then they're basically spectators since they're too blown to deliver another good charge. That's a very expensive way to get very little compared to a light cavalry unit who can charge again and again.

I to favor Light lancers over heavy ones but Xystos do fill the role of heavy lancers, not exceptionally but they do, thus the KH have Access to heavy lancers, not the best ones but also not the worsed.

Don't bother with Haploi, they're garrison troops and nothing else.

wut?

garrison troops and nothing else

nothing else

LIES!! :D
Haploi are one of the most usefull levy Units in EB. They don't belong in a "royal army" like the one you plan to field but they are certainly much more than mere garrison troops. They can hold a line like the big ones and cost next to nothing. It's fair to say that most People only survive earlygame KH due to These guys.

As a sidenote, when you're planning a coastal raid:
AOR isn't as important here as it is on campaign, when you're only sacking the cities and leave the next turn, you can't retrain your Hoplitai anyway. Hoplitai are Superior when you're planning a longterm Expansion as they can be retrained in virtually every coastal province. when you're going back asap anyway, just take the troops most usefull for your conquest. and mercs.

[QuintusSertorius]

eventho I don't consider Hippeis TOTAL crap, I would not use them as "heavy Cavalry" dear god, I was assuming you were reffering to Lonchophoroi or Xystophoroi, because those are the only "heavy" cavalry Units the KH gets. the others are medium or light, with varying degree of usefullness ;)
If you can afford that army don't be cheap on the cav^^. Two different cav Units might not be as easy to retrain, but often do wonders when used together. As in, one unit with decent melee and one that has a great Charge.

Lonchophoroi are medium-heavy, which is why I rate them more highly than Xystophoroi. They have stamina which the heavier unit does not. As before, it's like someone took the Hippeis and made them good. Hellenistic Mercenary Generals have an upgraded version of them for their bodyguard - I'd even suggest hiring one for this raid to give you a cavalry general (or recruit one out of Kyrene once you've taken it).

I'd recommend making both your heavy cavalry units Lonchophoroi, and perhaps taking a unit of Hippakontistai for cleanup duty. The latter can be replaced with mercenary Hippakontistai if they get badly mauled.

sure those have better cavalry than the KH. But you don't actually have to Play their game of cav superiority. Catch their cav with your cheap cav or medium spear infantry and then poke their infantry with your lancers. You don't have to have the best cavalry, you just Need to have the right types in the right Situation.
I to favor Light lancers over heavy ones but Xystos do fill the role of heavy lancers, not exceptionally but they do, thus the KH have Access to heavy lancers, not the best ones but also not the worsed.

However, most of the KH roster doesn't even give you the right types for the right situation. Lonchophoroi are the only good heavies. You can't get good light lancers without regionals from Illyria or mercenaries.

There's only one thing light lancers can't do as well as heavy lancers: enduring extended melee. But you shouldn't be leaving your cavalry in melee like that anyway. Breaking contact and re-charging does a lot more damage to infantry than hanging around fighting. If it's enemy cavalry, better off breaking and trying to lure them into your spearmen.

wut?
LIES!! :D
Haploi are one of the most usefull levy Units in EB. They don't belong in a "royal army" like the one you plan to field but they are certainly much more than mere garrison troops. They can hold a line like the big ones and cost next to nothing. It's fair to say that most People only survive earlygame KH due to These guys.

I've got a unit in my royal army representing Illyrians retrained as hoplites (and to make it a bit harder since Hoplitai are awesome). But otherwise my standard garrison is two units of Haploi and two of Akontistai; with a unit of Toxotai for settlements with stone walls.

They're certainly disproportionately good - for levies. Better than Pantodapoi, Pontic/Slavic/Caucasian Light Spearmen and lots of other levy spearmen. But they drop like flies if the enemy have archers or slingers, or end up trying to fight the front of a phalanx, and if they get flanked, they're done.

As a sidenote, when you're planning a coastal raid:
AOR isn't as important here as it is on campaign, when you're only sacking the cities and leave the next turn, you can't retrain your Hoplitai anyway. Hoplitai are Superior when you're planning a longterm Expansion as they can be retrained in virtually every coastal province. when you're going back asap anyway, just take the troops most usefull for your conquest. and mercs.

You don't need to retrain your Hoplitai, you can just merge the survivors and plug the gaps with mercenary Hoplitai. There are often a lot of mercenary Thureophoroi in Egypt, too.

In fact, this expedition would be best achieved with an entirely mercenary army that you can replace as you go with mercenaries (this has the added advantage of not depleting your population for what is effectively a disposable army). Mercenary phalangites for the centre, hoplites to go on their flanks, thureophoroi outside them, peltastai for skirmishing and flanking. That's the heart of an infantry line. Add a mercenary general to lead them and you've got most of a potent force.

[athanaric]

1. From the information gained, are Thorakitai Hoplites (spear primary, AP sword secondary) and Iphikratous Hoplitai a bad choice to replace classical hoplites with?

No. They're different, but worth having as well. They're better on walls since they have swords.

2. Do classical hoplites remain relevant throughout the entire game, due to this issue with secondary weapons?

Yes, since they're good against cavalry and have a powerful charge. As KH though, you don't need them that much since you have a lot of other spearmen choices. They're more important for foreign factions campagining in Greece.

3. Do hippakontistai (javelin cavalry) make much of an impact, despite their small unit size? Are they a good replace for peltasts or an accompaniment?

Different battlefield role. Hippakontistai are useful, but not in the same fields as Peltastai are.

4. In a 'modern' army, is there any use for akontistai (unarmoured javelineers) ? I've found them largely redundant to peltasts but I occasionally miss their sheer number of javelins.

It's a matter of taste. I dislike using them in a "professional" army because they're near useless once their missiles are spent.

5. Should I drop the Thorakitai hoplites for more classicals or the cheaper haploi?

No.

6. Would adding hippakontistai be too much, or rather replace the peltasts?

See above. Although it is generally advisable to have at least one unit of light cavalry in every army.

8. Does bribing ever work on anything more than 2 unit armies?

Yes, if you have enough money. For more tips on bribing, see the guide in my signature. Should be in there somewhere.

9. Stupid Pontus people won't make peace with me even though they only have 1 province left, really?! Are there programmed hatreds?

Yes, the AI is programmed to hate the human players. Typical for game developers who're too lazy to develop a sensible AI.

As far as I'm concerned, there are only two types of useful cavalry: those with javelins and those with AP lances. If they don't have one of those, they're a waste of money, since any old light infantry will do for killing routing units (which is all cavalry who don't have one or both of those things can do).

Illyrians as you mentioned, are brilliant and good value. They not only have AP lances, but AP axes as well, which means they are extremely good at killing even heavy cavalry if they get stuck in melee (though this should be avoided if possible). I'd put them a step below Curepos, though, since they have javelins. These two are the mercs worth hiring in the early game. When you don't have cavalry generals, you really need AP lancers for breaking enemy infantry, and these are the most economical options.
[...]

Xystophoroi are ridiculously expensive, and just like Thessalians are knackered after two charges. Tired cavalry are useless cavalry.

Hippeis are worthless, though. No missile weapons, no AP melee weapons, no stamina for repeated charges. All they're good for is chasing down routers, which isn't terribly useful at all. Better off saving your money for Illyrians or Curepos. Or later in the game, Lonchophoroi (who are like a superior, upgraded version of Hippeis). The only reason to recruit them is if you literally have no other cavalry options at all.

That's a little bit extreme IMO. Firstly, some units (even infantry) are an absolute pain to catch if you don't have light cavalry, regardless of armament. Secondly, AFAIK lancers only have the AP trait and high lethality because the team wanted to give their charge extra power. So their relative power (despite low attack value and speed) is probably unintended.
I also found Xystophoroi and similar units very useful. Regarding the cavalry roster of the KH, it's actually quite good if you ignore AoR issues. You can't really place the Casse cavalry roster above theirs.

[Savriss]

Well, the raid started off really well, and the easternmost island (I forget the name) was invaded to kick off the war. That'll be relatively easy to hang on to and will probably be the only thing I keep out of all this.

From there, things went a little downhill. I timed my arrival badly and everyone jumped off their ships into the mouth of the Nile just in time to reveal a stinking huge stack of Ptolemaic that was probably just preparing to head west. With no movement left whatsoever,

There was an epic fight on the shoreline right there, with the result of having to merge several units together straight away and hire mercenary units. From there, the siege was a relatively mundane affair followed by enslavement and an orgy of destruction. I had thought to continue the raid and left the smoking ruins of the city behind me intending to head east. During the siege of the city, another very large stack of Ptolemaics came to relieve the siege but in doing so got themselves AND the garrison thoroughly routed... with the death of my old warmonger due to stupidity on my part. Another brutal 'pacification' followed, but that was the effective end of the campaign.

I'm not an amazing general yet and both battles had cost my army a fair portion of troops. I could have hired more troops but my coffers had just been emptied following the commencement of mines in two different provinces. I've boarded the general back onto the ships waiting for him and am pulling back, from there to decide what to do. Carthage has a territory on the boot of Italy, so I may honour my alliance with Rome and take that territory, to give it back to the Senate as a gift.

[QuintusSertorius]

As before, if you're engaging in that sort of expedition, an expendable, all-mercenary force is desirable. Especially when you can replenish their numbers in Egypt.

I forgot to mention, if the Seleukids are still a going concern, hitting Syria and gifting former Ptolemaic provinces to them is going to be more effective than slashing and burning. They use the same barracks as the Ptolemies, so will be able to recruit right away and pose a reasonable challenge. If you aren't conquering, restoring a balance of power is the best way to contain a powerful faction.

That's a little bit extreme IMO. Firstly, some units (even infantry) are an absolute pain to catch if you don't have light cavalry, regardless of armament. Secondly, AFAIK lancers only have the AP trait and high lethality because the team wanted to give their charge extra power. So their relative power (despite low attack value and speed) is probably unintended.
I also found Xystophoroi and similar units very useful. Regarding the cavalry roster of the KH, it's actually quite good if you ignore AoR issues. You can't really place the Casse cavalry roster above theirs.

For the basic job of chasing down routers, Hippakontistai are cheaper and faster than Hippeis. Hippeis are in the worst of all worlds; too heavy to be enduring, not enough punch to be devastating in the charge, too light weapons to be effective in a prolonged melee, no missiles.

I've used Thessalians, who are virtually identical to Xystohoroi, and I thought they were useless. Sure they look pretty, but you get one good charge out of them, then they're done. The bodyguard cavalry for the Hellenistic Mercenary General are better, and have more stamina.

The only saving grace of the KH roster are Lonchophoroi (but needs a high level barracks) otherwise it's mercenary all the way.

[QuintusSertorius]

What campaign and battle difficulty are you playing on?

Here's a plan for you. Install a type IV government somewhere on your periphery that doesn't matter. Use it to recruit a Hellenistic Mercenary General.

Hire the following army:
2x Mercenary Pezhetarioi (you can go with three if you have the money - increases survivability)
1x Mercenary Hoplitai
2x Mercenary Thureophoroi
1x Mercenary Peltastai
1x Mercenary Thrakioi Peltastai*
1x Mercenary Kretan Archers
1x Mercenary Illyrioi Hippeis
1x Curepos
1x Mercenary Hippakontistai

*These dudes are vital, they are well-armoured and have an AP secondary weapon, making them perfect enemy Family Member killers. You have to stop the offending enemy cavalry with spearmen or your own cavalry first, but then sick these guys on them once they are stationary.

The reason you want mercenaries is twofold. Firstly, it stops you depleting your settlements, who will need to pay for all these troops. Secondly, it means you can hire troops later to merge into your stacks, rather than worrying about trying to retrain in a hostile region where you don't have any barracks.

Add to this one FM and the Mercenary General mentioned upthread, and a unit of Sphendonetai. If you have a settlement with a Blacksmith, send everyone through there before setting sail, it adds a little to their durability and effectiveness.

Deploy like this:

----Sph

Thr-Pelt ------- Thur ---- Hopl ----- Phal ---- Phal --- FamMem ---- Thur ---- Pelt

Illy-Hipp -----------------------------Kretans----------------------------Merc General

Curepos------------------------------------------------------------------Hippak


Take everyone off Skirmish Mode who can. Put the entire front line, barring two Peltastai on Guard Mode. Make sure the Thureophoroi are on fire at will. In a battle, you'll probably be outnumbered, which means they'll come to you. You want this. Find a nice hill or other good defensive spot, make sure you have good sight lines clear of trees for your missile troops to work. Wait for them to come, let them engage your front line (enduring a shower of missiles the entire time they advance - make sure the archers and slingers are shooting unarmoured targets first), making sure the slingers run before getting charged to a spot off to the left and behind your line (and have them shoot their missile troops). When they're committed, loop your cavalry around both flanks, throwing javelins into their backs. Anyone who routs from that, let the Hippakontistai kill them. When all your ammo is gone, have the lancers charge into the rear of the enemy wing units (leave the centre til last - your phalanxes can take the pressure). Every time they contact and kill (the numbers should drop rapidly if you've done it right), pull them out, reform, charge again until the enemy breaks.

The other thing to do is watch for their Family Members. If they charge your line somewhere, pull your Thrakioi Peltastai out and hunt the enemy general down.

[Ca Putt]

While I generally agree with the aforementioned Points I'd like to protest against the historical use of Missile troops. While the way it usually went in history, this is not the ideal use. Against the Diadochi it's actually nigh-useless due to omnipresent and potentially VERY high shield values. If you plan tu use a unit for flanking and not as lineholder(so Peltasts and depending on your army composition Thureophoroi) It's better to conserve the Javelins for flanking instead of disableing the enemy shields while they Charge(oh wait that does not work in RTW :D ).
Also while Archers(and especially Toxotai) work best against unarmoured Targets(preferably without a shield) and are seldom used for flanking(meaning: just fire away as above) Slingers really shine against armoured Units and due to their often lack of great shields: Bodyguard cavalry. So use them against unshielded Elites.
This may not be realistic but it's the game.

Also Kyrene is a good base of operations to retain your troops or serve as emergency retreat for your southern army and trai Spies + watchtowers to Keep an eye on the Ptollies. But don't capture(and hold) the surrounding provinces, they are not worth the hasse, especially because they can be retaken without having to wander the desert for several seasons, just stick with kyrene and use your navy.

Cyprus is a good base of operations aswell, especially as you can Train Cretans there, however it's harder to defend. why? because it's reachable in one turn by boat and as an Island the AI knows that it will Need ships to get it. I know Naval Invasions are rare for the AI, but the Ptollies regulary Invade Player KH Rhodos, and I'm pretty sure they will do the same with a Player KH Cyprus. Also you don't get them demoralized, starving troops they send against Kyrene, but fresh motivated ones.

[QuintusSertorius]

While I generally agree with the aforementioned Points I'd like to protest against the historical use of Missile troops. While the way it usually went in history, this is not the ideal use. Against the Diadochi it's actually nigh-useless due to omnipresent and potentially VERY high shield values. If you plan tu use a unit for flanking and not as lineholder(so Peltasts and depending on your army composition Thureophoroi) It's better to conserve the Javelins for flanking instead of disableing the enemy shields while they Charge(oh wait that does not work in RTW :D ).

Diadochi line troops might have good armour and shields, but the AI likes to recruit regionals and levies as well, who don't. The purpose of the Kretans particularly is to decimate any Akontistai/other unarmoured javelineers, Toxotai/other unarmoured archers, unarmoured slinger, Pantodapoi/other unarmored spearmen. I tend to find when left on fire at will, troops tend to throw diagonally into the flank of charging enemies, which is plenty effective enough since they probably won't get a chance to use them otherwise. Invariably with a smaller army, your entire line gets melee contact, so until they rout their opposite number they're not throwing anything.

The missile cavalry can do the "javelins in the back" role adequately.

I tend to find AI Diadochi armies are usually an elite phalanx, 3-4 levy phalanxes, 2-3 Thureophoroi/Thorakitai, then a whole mess of light troops, so 2-3 phalanxes of your own, plus two Hoplitai and two Thureophoroi are more than enough to hold them while you double envelop.

Also while Archers(and especially Toxotai) work best against unarmoured Targets(preferably without a shield) and are seldom used for flanking(meaning: just fire away as above) Slingers really shine against armoured Units and due to their often lack of great shields: Bodyguard cavalry. So use them against unshielded Elites.
This may not be realistic but it's the game.

Slingers are good against elites, but frankly clearing lighter units away and duelling with enemy long-ranged troops is more important, especially when you've only got two dedicated missile units.

Thrakioi Peltastai with their AP secondary weapon attacking from the rear are a more effective way to deal with elites than hoping they stay still/march slowly enough for slingers to do the job.

Also Kyrene is a good base of operations to retain your troops or serve as emergency retreat for your southern army and trai Spies + watchtowers to Keep an eye on the Ptollies. But don't capture(and hold) the surrounding provinces, they are not worth the hasse, especially because they can be retaken without having to wander the desert for several seasons, just stick with kyrene and use your navy.

Cyprus is a good base of operations aswell, especially as you can Train Cretans there, however it's harder to defend. why? because it's reachable in one turn by boat and as an Island the AI knows that it will Need ships to get it. I know Naval Invasions are rare for the AI, but the Ptollies regulary Invade Player KH Rhodos, and I'm pretty sure they will do the same with a Player KH Cyprus. Also you don't get them demoralized, starving troops they send against Kyrene, but fresh motivated ones.

These are both good bases, Kypros also has mines so will bring in a lot of money to support the upkeep of the mercenary force.

Indeed, I have seen the AI invade Kypros, but if it's got stone walls it's easy to defend with a relatively small garrison.

[Alcibiade]

Since you mention them ekdromoie and iphrikratous hoplitai are units that I tended to recruit less and less, respectively using thuerophoroi and thorakitai instead (which are more versatile and efficient).

Organising an expedition to Kyrene is lots of fun. And it's indeed the perfect base to attack the Nile cities.

Sorry for the nostalgia effusion that any mention about KH units will trigger but Koinon Hellenon campaign is really one of the most enthralling TW experience I ever had ! The script that makes some cities rebel and turn to you, driving you into unexpected wars and the rivalry with Macedonia in the earluy game, those are priceless memories.

[Savriss]

Hi there,

Due to some unrelated issues, I've had to roll back my machine significantly.

As a result, I was returned to a point before the Ptolemai were completely crazy (Qarth-Hadast are restored) and I had just rushed reinforcements to Pergamon and taken Byzantion.

I've replayed a few years since and now control Halicarnassos again, along with the provinces on the north of that blob of land. The Pontus are gone (again, crazy bastards) and the Romans have subjugated the Aedui. I decided to see if i could take a different route this time and am spreading north, through the brown people who have just sat there on the border for over a decade.

1. What is with them? They have a huge stack in an Eleutheroi province west of them that they've done absolutely nothing with.
2. The people with the lighter brown nation colour just north of them, are they the horse archers I've read about in several other threads?
3. How to deal with horse archers, when we meet?
4. I've bought a city off the Ptolemaics (rather than warring for it) for 50k minai. They'd had nothing in the city but a single unit for some time and it was dividing Halicarnassos from my northern lands. Was the province super important to the Ptolemaics historically or can I presume that sending my brother king over in the Nile several boat loads of gold would actually have made the deal sweet enough?
5. Are distinguished hoplites an acceptable hammer for throwing into the back of toughish units, or are they expected to fill a different role?
6. I'm getting to the point where I'm marching 3 field armies and have 4 significant garrisons... it's a good feeling, even if they keep extending my supply lines to far. I've been tending to take a small bite and chew thoroughly before moving on... how long does the game last?
7. There are some seriously widespread regions I need to acquire before games end. About the only people I won't need to piss off eventually will be the northern barbarians. Are they acceptable trade partners?
8. Can trade be conducted within my empire, or is it only with external nations?
9. If I can subjugate a nation, will they be forever broken or will they just backstab me at an inconvenient time?

[d'Arthez]

1. The Getai are often very passive. I have had never them declare war on me, unless I basically had conquered all the surrounding lands.
What also seems to happen is that every time you reload your game, the AI factions "forget" the strategic plans they had forged. This can lead to insane passivity by the AI.
2. The Sauromatae. Steppe faction, plenty of horse archers. The others (which you don't have to face in all likelihood) are the Sakae (north eastern corner of the map; red colour) and the Pahlava (purple, near to the Sakae).
3. Best tactic is of course to avoid conflict on the steppe. Try to counter with quality archers, horse archers of your own, if you absolutely have to fight them on the steppe. Choose your battle-fields wisely, and where possible use naval invasions to line up sieges (possible for a few of the southern cities around the Black Sea).
4. I am not sure how the AI exactly determines the value of the cities it controls. What I do know is that the AI horribly undervalued its holdings in earlier versions of RTW (up to version 1.2 I think). 50k usually signifies a bargain, as it is not that much money.
5. Not sure what you mean with distinguished hoplites. You'll have plenty of different hoplites available to you, and most of those do have their own specialization.
6. The game lasts till 14 AD. So that is more than 1100 turns.
7. Check the advisor for which areas you actually do need. If I recall correctly the map that shows up under the Victory Conditions for the KH is slightly inaccurate. The advisor will tell you exactly what you need.
8. Trade within your empire is conducted automatically, provided you have the infrastructure (i.e. if Sparte has a port, it may trade with say Rhodos, if not, obviously it cannot trade with Rhodos). You can check the trade details in your settlement.
9. Subjugate? You mean protectorates? No experience with them. As for normally beating them into submission, and getting a regular peace, expect some backstabbing.

[QuintusSertorius]

1. The Getae are variable. In some games they rampage about and take a lot of territory; in others they don't do much.
2. That's the Sauromatae, who are horse archers. So are the Saka (the red faction who'll be in the far northeast corner).
3. Foot archers with a longer range, ideally armoured ones (Kretans, Bosporan Heavies). Rhodian Slingers too. You'll need to bring units with at least 10 armour to resist being machine-gunned; Thureophoroi/Thorakitai, Hoplitai, Thraikioi Peltastai, Lonchophoroi Hippeis, Thraikioi Prodromoi. Scythian Foot Archers are cheap and readily available in the area, even if they'll get pincushioned - but station them behind your heavy line (indeed do that with all your archers) and they might weather the storm of arrows. Endure the hail until they run out of arrows (and your foot archers decimate them), then let them come to you.

Here's what happened when I faced an Eleutheroi force (in the Bosporous) which was about 50% horse archer (and much larger than my army):



I had my other unit of Thraikioi Peltastai rout, but otherwise it held surprisingly well. I thought I was going to lose, but fought on anyway to see what I could learn.

4. No idea.
5. Lance-armed cavalry (Lonchophoroi, Prodromoi, Illyrioi Hippeis, Curepos) are the hammer to throw into the back of tough-ish units. Distinguished hoplites are the anvil to hold the front of those tough-ish units.
6. I stretch a game out as long as I possible can - that's why I intervene to preserve factions who are losing, because as soon as the weaker ones get eaten up it becomes a race between a few super-factions, which I don't find enjoyable.
7. Do them a region at a time, rather than all at once. Use Force Diplomacy to get a ceasefire with a faction who you've been warring with, and no longer have the ability to resist.
8. Trade happens within as well as between you and other factions. Check out the trade summary in any settlement.
9. Depends on your campaign difficulty. On VH they'll backstab you as soon as possible. I seem to remember there's a bug where anyone with an alliance who shares a land border will be seeking to betray you at the first opportunity. That includes Protectorates.

[The Stranger]

i love spies btw. specially early when the chances to infiltrate are high because there are less enemy spies doing counter intelligence. i usually bring multiple spies with my when invading enemy lands to open up the gates. specially early on in some campaigns this is paramount. also when playing horse archer factions, they are really nice :P

also the best type op cavalry are horse archers, preferably heavily armoured with AP lances. but any will do really, as long as theyre not against other horse archers. javelin cavalry i dislike, and ye sword or short spear cavalry is usually not worth it alot, except for chasing down routers. i suppose javelin cavalry is for that job too.

[QuintusSertorius]

i love spies btw. specially early when the chances to infiltrate are high because there are less enemy spies doing counter intelligence. i usually bring multiple spies with my when invading enemy lands to open up the gates. specially early on in some campaigns this is paramount. also when playing horse archer factions, they are really nice :P

Spies are essential both for telling you what's going on beyond your borders, but also for opportunistic revolt-instigation. When a faction has just taken a settlement is the ideal time to make it revolt and cause them problems. Which means their attention is not on you.

also the best type op cavalry are horse archers, preferably heavily armoured with AP lances. but any will do really, as long as theyre not against other horse archers. javelin cavalry i dislike, and ye sword or short spear cavalry is usually not worth it alot, except for chasing down routers. i suppose javelin cavalry is for that job too.

I don't use horse archers, personally, they require far too much micromanagement in terms of placement for my tastes. But I have defeated them with well-armoured infantry and foot archers, along with lancers to kill them when they're out of arrows.

Against other factions, javelin cavalry are very effective, send them around the back of the line and throw missiles into the backs of enemy units. Flee and tire out any infantry sent to drive them off. When they retreat, turn missiles on them. Then they can kill routers afterwards.

Sword and short spear cavalry are largely worthless, though, I agree. Missile cavalry can do the same job of chasing down routers, but also bring ranged capability and usually better stamina.

[The Stranger]

horse archers are pretty easy to use, and especially armoured ones are unbeatable. i also think in MP they are considered OP/overpowered so theyre usually restricted in their use.

with 5 armoured horse archers you can conquer the entire world, preferably family members or otherwise the ones of the 2 steppe tribes which are easily recruited in alot of places.