Crippling the Seleucids?? A KH strategical question.

[Dutchhoplite]

Hi all,

The thing i feared most has happened. I got sucked into the swamp that's called Asia Minor

I'm holding Pergamon, Mytilene, Sardis, Nikaia, Halikarnassos and Ipsos is hotly disputed. At the moment i'm unable to defeat the Seleucids (the major power on the map) but on the other hand i'm very unwilling to give up my cities in Asia minor.

I know the key to Asia minor is Antiocheia but it's unreachable at the moment. A option would be a amphibious operation or should i just be patient and wear them out, making the area a burned wasteland??



Thanks for any help

[SwissBarbar]

I'm at exactly the same point at the moment. What other Settlements do you have? I own all of greece, makedonia and byzantion (there is an actual map in the 1.2 Faction Progression Thread: https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?t=110336 ). These settlements give you loads on money (I'm playing on VH or H campaign difficulty, i don't remember which one). With that you can raise some great armies and start a campaign towards them. Thats what i intend to do, i'll report how it went, if you wish

[Dutchhoplite]

Other settlements are: Syrakousai, Rhodos, Sparte, Athenai, Chalkis, Demetrias, Pella, Serdike, Tylis, Chersonesos, Pantikapaion and Byzantion.

Luckily i'm still at peace with the Epeirotes

[Subotan]

How did you get there in the first place?

Are Pontos/Hayasdan/Ptolemaioi still alive? Because if not, you're in trouble.

[Maion Maroneios]

I know the East is tempting, I'm in a more or less similiar position as Makedonia in my current campaign. Wiht the onky difference that I can defeat the Seleukidai, of course, but that doesn't mean I have always been able to do so. You see, I used to be afraid of the Grey Death with their Argyraspides and Hetairoi, so I exploited AI weakness by raiding and pillaging he southern Anatolian coast as well as the Levant through amphibious assaults. If you do that and destroy their barrackses and generally any building that is destructible, soon the quality of their armies will drop drastically. Then, you can consider launching an offensive

Maion

[Dutchhoplite]

How i got there??

Well...

When I defeated the Macedonians in Europe i crossed over to Asia Minor to finish the job and captured the Macedonian settlements there.

Then Halikarnassos rebelled and...

By the way, the ptollies have been pushed to the south, Hayasdan is still around and i'm (also) at war with Pontos.

[Ca Putt]

ah i've had a simmilar situation a while ago. I could fight them in numerous battles with a huge load of hoplites.

navy based raiding operations are extremely effective and i once managed to smuggel a FM(with a lot of mony ;) ) deep into enemy territory to take babylon and seleukeia. but to be honest my biggest ally was luck for at the exact right point of time Sinpe and trapezous(?) rebelled to ME and Ankyria to the arverni which terribly distracted the AS. this let me take everything along the coast and the extremely weak Ankyria(the seleukids conquered it) and i built up a stronghold arround antiochia and Tarsos.

[Novellus]

What do most of the AS armies look like at the moment? Are they a bunch of pike units and heavy cavalry?

[Aemilius Paulus]

What do most of the AS armies look like at the moment? Are they a bunch of pike units and heavy cavalry?

Yeah, because those AS armies are pretty easy to defeat in a field battle, just as long as you have plenty of cavalry. Just let them come to your hoplites, or let your hoplites come to them and then strike them in the back. KP and PP phalangites will rout after the first charge. Pezhetairoi will do so usually after the second charge and the elites will all die/rout by the third or fourth charge. You could also go unorthodox and create an all-HA army with a bit of heavy cavalry as I have done in my Romani campaign. They are my tank army of Antiquity. I would advise hiring Mercenary Phalangitai as I consider pike phalanxes as almost cheating. These guys are perfect for the anvil of your hammer. Thanks to their long pikes, they will take little to no damage while your cavalry pounds the enemy phalanx from behind. Also get the Galatian "Wild Men" - those naked Gaesatae-wannabes as they are almost unrivaled as flanking infantry and it is incredibly hard to kill one of them.

[mikil100]

I am in a similar position as Makedonia... however I am more persistant and want to wither the Seleukids down in a bloody war of attrition, gaining my armies and generals lots of experience in the process. :D

[antisocialmunky]

I took most of Asia Minor as the KH in one campaign.

We managed to kick them out of the coastal Greek Cities and Pergamum with Areus and some friends. After a old and battle weary Areus died, the generals in Asia minor gathered at Sardis to elected his sucessor. I think it was Areus's nephew Alcmenes(I forget but lets call him that) to lead the army. He managed to push deeper into asia but at this point the greek Classical hoplites of our armies in Asia had been whittled down. Finding very few mercenaries left - most of which were hired by the Greys and sent against us - Alcmenes decided to meet several other generals and redeploy their forces. TThey rested for several seasons waiting for reenforcements as well. Few came but we filled out our numbers with Galatians from around Byzanton and Galatia. Alcmenes then decided to march south to take the coastal cities of Cilicia to secure the southern flank of the army while the rest of the generals pushed futher east and north to regain the black sea colonies. It seemed to be going well...

You know that bunch of Thorakitai Argyraspides they start out with? The ones that the Seleucids usually use to kill rebels and Ptolemies around Antiochea? Yeah the ones that usually all get promoted to silver or gold chevrons.

Well there were 40 of them left, double silver chevroned. They supported an attack of a bunch of Hellenic Native Phalanxes. Thse guys died fairly easily to my crack armies of classical hoplites. However, they took their toll and managed to tire Alcmenes's army out. The Argyraspides charge in 40 men ahead of the rest of the reenforcement stack. They engage single handedly the whole army. For every one we killed, they killed 20.

Then the rest of the reenforcements showed up. Alcmenes died trying to flank that group of Argraspides space marines. He managed to kill all but 10 but died when he got mobbed by the sea of grey.

So yeah. Asia Minor sucks.

[desert]

You should have bought Tindanotae.

[Cullhwch]

Do you have enough money to buy stacks of mercenaries? If you do, you should pick a disliked general and form a "ravager" army with a few spies and assassins. Just march straight into Babylon (avoiding any major stacks), exterminate every city in your path (the spies will help with this) and destroy the MICs. Don't worry about garrisoning these provinces, as destruction, not conquest, is the goal. If at all possible, you should make the destruction of Susa and Persepolis your ultimate objectives. If you can take out all the AS's prime recruitment centers (Babylon, Persia, Media, and Syria), their elite armies will quickly turn into Pantadopoi and you will be in a much better position to win the war.

[Subotan]

Historically accurately though, that's despicable =/

[Cambyses]

My tips:

Just make sure to develop at least one cit in Asia Minor to a high level MIC as soon as possible. That way you can get troops to the front lines quickly. Marching them all round through Byzantium or via ferry from Athens is what makes the job so hard. Local troops in large numbers = Easy.

For the other cities stone walls and a half stack garrison should be enough to keep them yours.

[Cullhwch]

Historically accurately though, that's despicable =/

Hey, the real Seleucid Empire didn't have infinite resources and armies. This'll just set them back a few decades.

[Novellus]

If you're in the Asia Minor region, there are going to be quite a few restrictions on unit recruitment. One of my favorite units as the Koinon Hellenon faction were the Xystophoroi (Greek Noble Cavalry) which could give hell to infantrymen if used properly. But since they are not going to be readily available, make sure you have a good force of Prodomoi (Successor Medium Cavalry) that have a good charge and are readily available for retraining. This flexibility makes them an excellent candidate to deal with enemy pikemen. As for the enemy heavy cavalry, you are going to have to be especially careful. The Prodomoi could easily get chewed up by the Hetairoi bodyguards or cataphract-types if they are in use at the moment. Set traps and use the AI's lack of strategy to your advantage. If the enemy cavalry find another cavalry unit within charging distance, they'll usually pursue. If you can spot this in time and order them to run away while another nearby cavalry unit pursues, it can be a devastating trap. This is how I usually dispose of enemy bodyguard cavalry from other factions, especially since Koinon Hellenon lack bodyguard cavalry.

As for the campaign map, do NOT allow cavalry units to be trapped in your settlements if sieges are iminent. Use them as powerful reinforcements to mess up the enemy lines from behind, and it gives them enough flexibility. Historically, the Greeks did not focus on cavalry as a key element in warfare. But it might be a good idea to start. Focus on securing your borders at the moment. Pontus is annoying to deal with, but they should be no problem for the Greek army (I even dealt with stacks of them on VH/VH and routed entire armies with far fewer soldiers on my side). Avoid the Pandotopoi until you can stab them in the back without being checked by skirmishers or cavalry (they have numbers). But the main point here is to start on defense until you are able to send armies to Seleucia to destroy their recruitment centers.

Oh, and Rome: Total War is built around epic battles and lots of soldiers. I would avoid fighting large forces and focus on taking out individual units if I could. I would try ambushes, but I've never had a successful one before. So it is an option if you believe you can pull the battles off successfully. So it's your call.

By the way, Ekdromoi (Greek Light Hoplites) do a great job at engulfing the flanks of phalangites. They don't do the greatest at melee, but they can freak the enemy out with numbers while the cavalry swerve around to attack from behind. They're manuverable and easily recruitable in the region. Go for flexibility!

[Marcus Ulpius]

I played KH campaign only once (it was lost to a client ruler crash) and I remember I had a hard time fighting the Seleucids in Anatolia. It really turned into a swamp for me. I was able to take Halikarnasus, Pergamon, Sardis and Ipsus, then it stopped. They've started to send large armies full of medium phalanxes and I had hard time dealing with them mostly due to the lack of my own phalanxes or heavy swordsmen. One of my mistakes was to build Thureoporoi-centered armies which were unable to fight phalangites well.

So, I've used a new approach. In field battles I tried to use the mobility of my troops to try and disrupt the phalanxes line, then separate and flank one or two of their phalanxes. If I was successful that caused one of their flanks to collapse and while they were reorganizing their line, I was trying to separate and flank some more. Sometimes it worked, sometimes I had my units stuck between their phalanx lines and it was not pretty. Other approach was more traditional as it involved less maneuvering - my center was supported by classical hoplites. Their task was to contain phalanxes and hold the line until my flankers - thureoporoi and ekdromoi hoplitai (which were indeed surprisingly good) manage to flank the enemy and relieve the hoplites. The problem with this tactic is that even when flanked, Kleruchoi are not dieing fast to thureoporoi and ekdromoi hoplitai and on the other hand classical hoplites can't hold the line forever. I still managed to win battles, but K:D ratio was too high to continue advancing on AS positions.

Another tactics which I thought could turn the tide (although I didn't get to trying it as the campaign crashed) was to take Thracian provinces and Ankira and start building MICs there ASAP to get some heavy Thracian and Gallic infantry. In my current Makedonian campaign I use Tharcians and Gallo-Hellens extensively as phalanx killers. Triballi infantry slaughters phalangites if you manage to flank them. Same goes for Elite Thracian Infantry which cut through Kleruchoi and Native phalangites like hot knife through butter. My advantage now is that as Makedonia I can engage AS phalanxes with my own even better phalanxes and send heavy cavalry and swordsmen for the kill, KH can't do that, so the battles will go harder, but still using Thracian and Celtic heavy infantry would give you soldiers KH armies lack.

[Beefy187]

Kill off Pontus. And gain naval control on that general area. I guess you are rolling around in Gold anyway.

Firstly launch a assault on Cyprus. Then go for series of raids on those coastal cities. This should slow their advance.

Get Ptolemies and Saba in the war as well. Give them the cities if you wish then you should be on fairly good side. Just get rid of those elite spamming cities.

[Skullheadhq]

Kill off Pontus. And gain naval control on that general area. I guess you are rolling around in Gold anyway.

Firstly launch a assault on Cyprus. Then go for series of raids on those coastal cities. This should slow their advance.

Get Ptolemies and Saba in the war as well. Give them the cities if you wish then you should be on fairly good side. Just get rid of those elite spamming cities.

I Agree with Beefy, But you should black also any Seleukid ports in the Mediterrean.

[Dutchhoplite]

Thanks for the replies :)

Unfortunately the situation has complicated somewhat. Massilia rebelled to my side so
the Romans have joined my list of enemies...

At the moment i'm at war with the Romans, Carthaginians, Seleucids, Pontos and the Sauromatae.

It's a difficult situation :P

[mikil100]

Thanks for the replies :)

Unfortunately the situation has complicated somewhat. Massilia rebelled to my side so
the Romans have joined my list of enemies...

At the moment i'm at war with the Romans, Carthaginians, Seleucids, Pontos and the Sauromatae.

It's a difficult situation :P

Maybe if you focus your war on Roma instead of the Seleukids abadoning as many cities in Asia minor. If you control Italy I bet you would have the funds the destroy the silver death.

[Novellus]

Thanks for the replies :)

Unfortunately the situation has complicated somewhat. Massilia rebelled to my side so
the Romans have joined my list of enemies...

At the moment i'm at war with the Romans, Carthaginians, Seleucids, Pontos and the Sauromatae.

It's a difficult situation :P

Ah, the Romans----numerous, annoying, and backstabbing if you don't pay enough attention.

If you are going to fight the Romans, remember how much they hate phalanxes. If the March of Time has taken place and you can create the Koinon Hellenon Phalangites, you can use hammer-and-anvil tactics in coordination with your Xystophoroi (Greek Noble Cavalry), which do an excellent job at killing off Romans and can be retrained. Now, if the Romans have the city of Taras, you should try to conquer it as quickly as you can in order to throw the Romans into a mess. The Epeirotes should have built a very large MIC that you as the Greeks should be able to use the moment you conquer it. But if it belongs to the Epeirotes at this moment, leave it alone.

But if you don't want a full-scale war with Rome, which would be the best move, strengthen the garrison at Syracuse and build a fort outside of the city. Putting cavalry in the fort would give great flexibility should the city be attacked. Also, if your city has enough soldiers, the Carthaginians will leave you alone since they tend to have few soldiers on the island of Sicily.

At this point, you are going to have to put yourself on the defensive because of all the enemies. Let their armies break against your cities, and if you can work the diplomacy, get some friends! You were right about being in a swamp!

And how on Earth did you get involved with the Sauromatae? This will be a mess if you can't make peace with them soon. And I still haven't been able to find a practical solution to fight their cavalry archers as the Greeks without having to rely so heavily on mercenaries.

[MerlinusCDXX]

...And how on Earth did you get involved with the Sauromatae? ...

Most likely as a result of Chersonesos or Pantikapaion rebelling to the KH after the Sauromatae captured
it and let it rebel, much like Massalia rebelling put him at war with Roma.

[KozaK13]

How well are the Seleucids doing in the east? If they are doing god there, then you are truely in trouble..

The best solution is to slug it out in Asia Minor if you really want it, but then you might be better forgetting it if it is going to take forever..plus make peace with Carthage for trade if you can.

[Dutchhoplite]

Actually, Both rebelled. Just like the rebellion of Syracuse and Emporion brought me into a war with the Carthaginians and the Lusotannan.

I hate it when that happens

[Subotan]

By accepting their revolts, you're encouraging them. Well, the Ai may not be thinking like that, but If I was a Greek Emporiote, I would.

[NIKOMAHOS]

Well,well my dear friend you think you are in trouble now but just read this: in my ongoing KH campaign(Very difficult level of course)in year 196 i have to face Romans(???), Hayasdan, Arche Seleucia, Getai, Sarmatians, Qarththadastim and i just took Trapezous and destroy Pontos...
Asia minor now. How did i managed to conquer it all from Trapezous to Mazaka and Tarsos.
Of course AS was the major problem there but i faced them only a few times in the open battlefield always in places i selected(high hills or rivers) and i kept my multiple sphendonetai and cretan archers units inside cities(maybe 10 or more units).
I was waiting for AS to siege my cities(Mazaka was under siege more than 20 times from both AS and HAI) and then my sphendonetai and Cretan did the best they could, eliminating the eneny cavalry for the begining and then they always flank slow phalanxes and destroy them with a very few hoplites and xystrophoroi help. I can just remember Sardis siege in the begining that a few Lonchophoroi of my misthophoros general managed to stay alive and kept the town when 3.000 grey men died from my spendonetai and hoplites(not more than 1.000) in their try to reach the walls. Having a fast unit ready to destroy enemie towers is a great idea especially when 242 phalanghite are heading to the walls through them...Now i have 30 almost gold chevroned sphendonetai and cretan and i create KH phalanghite in Pergamon for my Asia adventure having areally strong economy with 200.000Mnai income and 140.000 spent each turm for army upkeep.....
But Asia minor was not the only place war was going on. I took Syracuse as soon as Romans took her from the rebels and they were exhausted there. After Taras. Then i conquered the Epeirotes homelands that gave me KH Phalanghites and made naval attacks to Karthadast, Adrumeto And Atiqa that gave me thousands of mnai...
Now i fight for Mazaka and Tarsos with AS and HAI (i think Karkathiokerta should be destroyed now because it is the strarting point of their attacks). I fight with Romans(???) for Segesta and Patavium(yes almost all of Italy including eternal city is mine). I fight with Getai for Ak-Ink(allmost all of the modern Balkans are in KH hands). I fight with the destroyed Qarthadastim(i also took Lilybaio, Karali and Alalia from them). And i am searching for a solution to fight those Sauromates horse archers.
I try to have 20 units armies with 10 skuda horse archers(you can find them in Pantikapaion, Kallatis, Chersonesos that i took from Sarmatians)6 Bosphoran Tryreopherontes toxotai and 4 hoplites. Hoplites makes a protection line for Bosphoran or even the bait and skudas try to flank Sarmatians when Bosphorans through their arrows from a safe distance.
Any better solution for Sarmatianw(I hope now that i just took Tanais and cut their way to the sea i hit their economy and i will be able to take the city between Black and Kaspian sea that will give me better horse archers)