Brexit Thread

[Seamus Fermanagh]

Lord Howard implies we would go to war over Gibraltar....

I don't see Spain militarily annexing Gib.

Were they to try, the UK's military capability to stop or counterattack is much more limited than it was in 1982.

Could it be done?

Would the UK need to resort to a nuclear threat?

If the threat failed, could the UK actually launch nukes (obviously they have the technology, that's not what I see as an obstacle)?

[Fragony]

So an ardent Dutch supporter of Brexit doesn't actually support Nexit, yet feels able to lecture Brits that their future will be worthwhile, whatever territories, prosperity or other things they'll have to give up. The hypocrisy stinks.

It's not that, a lot of pvv supporters are just tired of the muslim-bashing as it's just not fair. When it comes to the EU things are different though, it aren't just pvv voters who dispise the EU, look for the referendum on the EU-consitution and the Associaton-Treaty with the Ukraine and you will kinda see how things are

[Pannonian]

I don't see Spain militarily annexing Gib.

Were they to try, the UK's military capability to stop or counterattack is much more limited than it was in 1982.

Could it be done?

Would the UK need to resort to a nuclear threat?

If the threat failed, could the UK actually launch nukes (obviously they have the technology, that's not what I see as an obstacle)?

The real practical threat is that, after an agreement has been made with the EU delegates, when it comes to ratifying the agreement, Spain will say No. And despite PFH's criticisms of the EU lacking democratic accountability, the EU as a body is subject to numerous vetoes, one for each member state. As Canada has found out, if one member says No, the EU as a body says No. And the default persists until an agreement is reached. In the face of this, the UK can't exactly threaten war, and it has far too little leverage for economic war.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

The UK is not threatening war - the UK is merely making it clear that it will not compromise on Gibraltar and sell its people out, even in the face of military action. It shouldn't need to be said, it should be taken as read, but better to say it now than in 18 months time.

[Fragony]

The UK is not threatening war - the UK is merely making it clear that it will not compromise on Gibraltar and sell its people out, even in the face of military action. It shouldn't need to be said, it should be taken as read, but better to say it now than in 18 months time.

For what purpose, it was strstegically important in 1700 or so, now it's just sentiment. What could go wrong if you gracefully just give it away. Sacrfifices are going to be made and this would be a small but very symbolic one, everyone has an instant stfu

[Greyblades]

Any Prime minister who abandons countrymen for expedience tends to find thier career comes to an end shortly afterwards.

I was willing to settle for no deal before the matter of territorial concession came into it, the spanish want to fuck the germans over gibraltar that's their problem.

Ce'st la vie.

[Brenus]

So the 30,000 Gibraltarns should be used as a scapegoat when the talks fail

Well, now now, what do you think I feel when T. May uses me and others EU foreigners in UK as human shield for the future negotiation? The silence of the British is deafening.

[Brenus]

Could it be done? Would the UK need to resort to a nuclear threat?

That will be suicidal. NATO would have the obligation to nuke UK.
And France being part of NATO and a Nuclear Weapons owner would be obliged to use them against UK, so at the end having 2 neighbours transformed in ashes, radioactives ones..

[Fragony]

lolwut the English are sending fleet

[Gilrandir]

Anyway, the EU is supposed to be about peace, prosperity and co-operation - internally and externally.

How can anyone in sober senses want to abandon "peace, prosperity and cooperation"?

That will be suicidal. NATO would have the obligation to nuke UK.
And France being part of NATO and a Nuclear Weapons owner would be obliged to use them against UK, so at the end having 2 neighbours transformed in ashes, radioactives ones..

Who will you fight for then?

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

For what purpose, it was strstegically important in 1700 or so, now it's just sentiment. What could go wrong if you gracefully just give it away. Sacrfifices are going to be made and this would be a small but very symbolic one, everyone has an instant stfu

30,000 people, that is the reason.

Well, now now, what do you think I feel when T. May uses me and others EU foreigners in UK as human shield for the future negotiation? The silence of the British is deafening.

I think the UK has said it will guarantee the status of EU nationals as soon as the EU reciprocates, and I think the EU has refused to discuss the issue up to know.

That will be suicidal. NATO would have the obligation to nuke UK.
And France being part of NATO and a Nuclear Weapons owner would be obliged to use them against UK, so at the end having 2 neighbours transformed in ashes, radioactives ones..

We're not going to attack Spain, nobody has said we will attack Spain.

If Spain invades Gibraltar will France support the UK?

[Husar]

30,000 people, that is the reason.

They can just move to the UK before Spain takes over. There's no need to abandon them.
If Spain gave up Ceuta and Melilla, the people living there now would probably move to Spain rather than become Moroccans, too.

[Franconicus]

30,000 people, that is the reason.

I am not very familiar with the people living at Gibraltar. However, what I heard is that most of them voted against the BREXIT and are afraid of it. I assume all they want is to live at Gibraltar and have good relations to the UK and Spain. Caused by the BREXIT, there will be a frontier to Spain. I doubt that the Gibraltarians really want to be defended in a war UK against Spain. Neither do they want to move to the UK (or they would have done already). Gibraltar is one of the losers of the BREXIT.

[Brenus]

Who will you fight for then?

I will be part of the ashes, most probably...

[Gilrandir]

I will be part of the ashes, most probably...

Burning yourself is not an option.

[Brenus]

Burning yourself is not an option.

No, but at 58 my options for fighting are limited...

[Gilrandir]

No, but at 58 my options for fighting are limited...

Guerilla warfare doesn't recognize age limits.

[Brenus]

Guerilla warfare doesn't recognize age limits.

Need to be in your own background...

[Gilrandir]

Need to be in your own background...

I don't know what background you consider your own. That is why I asked which side you would back in hypothetical France vs the UK conflict.

[Elmetiacos]

Right, stop this. It's silly.

[edyzmedieval]

This whole sabre rattling is drumming up support for political causes. Nobody is going to go to war - lest so Spain with the UK - it's a public spat between two countries who don't agree on the whole Brexit deal because Spain has a lot to lose out of Brexit and they have a ton of extra work to deal with the considerable amount of UK nationals living in Spain.

When you have a lot of domestic issues to solve, having a ton more on the external side to be added to your plate doesn't make it very cheerful.

[Sarmatian]

I don't know what background you consider your own. That is why I asked which side you would back in hypothetical France vs the UK conflict.

Knowing Brenus, he'd take control of the Isle of Man and declare it a separate country.

[Seamus Fermanagh]

Knowing Brenus, he'd take control of the Isle of Man and declare it a separate country.

I don't think you are allowed separate status if the populace is outnumbered by their own sheep...

[Gilrandir]

I don't think you are allowed separate status if the populace is outnumbered by their own sheep...

Up with sheep suffrage.

[Sarmatian]

I don't think you are allowed separate status if the populace is outnumbered by their own sheep...

You've just revoked New Zealand's independence.

[Beskar]

Isle of Mann is currently governed independently except for matters involving foreign affairs and defense.

[Seamus Fermanagh]

Isle of Mann is currently governed independently except for matters involving foreign affairs and defense.

It is a land of mutant house cats and replete with too many sheep. How can they be truly independent?

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

It is a land of mutant house cats and replete with too many sheep. How can they be truly independent?

The sheep are allowed to vote.

[Sarmatian]

As they are everywhere.

[Seamus Fermanagh]

The sheep are allowed to vote.

All hail the Ovine Republic of Mann.