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Thread: EB 101 (long post)

  1. #1

    Default EB 101 (long post)

    I have been watching the tourney matches lately just like I did with ASM's tourney last year and I noticed that something similar is happening now as happened last year. Last year the complaint was "cataphracts are overpowered" and right now its "heavy infantry (esp. post-Marian Roman) in guard mode are overpowered. Now one might consider that these are near opposite, last year most people quit playing Romans, because the cataphracts were mowing the infantry hordes down. No one cared much about Romans in guard mode, just pin them with phalanx, kill Roman cavalry, ride the legion down with cataphracts for the win. So I just wanted to lay down my understanding of the basics in EB for those who tend to complain before they raise their level of play.

    1. Infantry line vs line, if both are similar in strength and size, the defender in guard mode will always win when the attacker becomes exhausted and loses morale. This even includes pike phalanxes on the attack, they will generally tire without doing much damage to the defender, and then are ultra vulnerable to flank and rear attack.

    2. Numbers: Line vs line if one line is longer than the other it can turn the unguarded flank/surround the opponent and slowly route down the line. This is why it is important to have reasonably large numbers and as Napoleon I said, "god is on the side of the big battalions."

    3. Elites: Get over it. Non-Roman elite infantry cost a lot of money and have low numbers. Spartans, Solduros, Hypaspists, German nobles, Dacian noble infantry are nice to look at, but risky to use, since they require much $$$ and occupy too little space. If a player uses Spartans or Hypaspists or Solduros (elite infantry) in MP and wins, it is because of better strategy, micro, and cavalry dominance, the Spartans did nothing that Thorakitai hoplitai or Helvetian phalanx (read high quality superior infantry) could not have done just as well and for less cost. Watch the top players, and you will see that most are winning with big battalions of common or superior troops because too many elites = small lines = you get enveloped at the flank and speared in the back.

    3. Infantry with special effects, such as gaesatae fear, or Carnute druids, wargozes, etc. should be used sparingly with an eye to their increased cost, since everyone goes down when speared in the back.

    4. Javelin shower: javelins are best shot in the opponents' flank or back. Commonly when lines approach one another, people leave autofire on, and exchange frontal javelin volleys. When both lines are well armored and have lvl3 or greater shields, as for example Roman legionaries vs. phalanx line, or Romans vs. Thorakitai/neitos, the result is little damage on both sides. This is a waste of javelins. On the flank it is often better to turn autofire off and save javelins for a shot in the flank or back, which can cause an instant route, than it is to leave autofire on and kill 6 or 8 opponents in a full volley. A full javelin volley can also do good damage to enemy cavalry, which can help tip the cavalry balance in one's favor.

    5. Elite cavalry: cataphracts and hetairoi are very powerful when used well. But some elite cavalry like Remi mairepos are overpriced and a waste of time. Some elites entail little more than a boost to morale and a slight boost to defense skill, over their superior versions (e.g. Brihentin vs. Remi Mairepos). In highly competitive environments such as MP, it is better to spend money on high quality superior infantry, spending 30% or 40% more on cavalry to get that cool looking elite with one higher attack and defense skill will help to ensure your defeat against a more value conscious competitor. (remember mOre means better, and god is on the side of the big battalions).

    6.Turning the flank. Frederick the Great said that the purpose of war has always been to turn the enemy's flank and utterly route them with your cavalry. This is basically the case in EB. In an infantry fight line vs. line, assuming lines of similar mnai cost and similar length, the line fighting in defensive mode will win once the attacker becomes exhausted and loses morale. Once they lose morale they are easily routed by cavalry charge to the back, skirmisher fire to the back, spear volley to the back, horse archery to the back, you get the picture EB is all about shooting and spearing people in the back.

    That said, in my opinion the mark of skilled play in EB is about skilled micromanagement in an effort to turn an opponents flank and individually and sequentially route the opponents troops. Towards this end, traditionally in real war, as well as in EB, cavalry are the standard arm of choice. In EB, if one guy attacks in line and the other guy holds line in guard mode, it is generally an auto-win for the defender. Just sit back and wait for his infantry to become exhausted. Skilled players don't commit to combat in line at all, or they attack in line while at the same time outmaneuvering the flank. If this happens (attack in line and flank at the same time), it usually comes down to a winner take all collision at the flank. These collisions are the real crux of EB, and this is where one's extra money should be spent. With horse archers it might be possible to shoot down the opposing cavalry and archery and leave the flank exposed to cav charges with little fight. Otherwise certain troop types, like elephants, gaesatae, cataphracts, AP/high lethality troops like guild warriors/rhomps/swordmasters, and high value infantry like Pedites extraordinarii, Arjos, and Thrakian peltasts can all have strong impact at the decisive collision. And whoever has extra resources to throw at the decisive point and manages his forces more skillfully rightfully gains the right to lance/shoot his opponent in the back and win the battle.

    So those are my observations, I would be interested to hear anything other people have to say concerning the basic principles of skilled play in EB. Mainly I think that at a high level of play EB tends to move away from a simple battle in line with guard mode= win, and becomes an evolving attempt to outmaneuver one's opponent, surround, crush individual troops, and initiate chainroutes, and at that point the game can be advanced and I think the number of army systems and strategies that could work would be greater than what I have seen in the tournament play.
    Last edited by Geticus; 07-08-2010 at 20:34.

  2. #2

    Default Re: EB 101 (long post)

    there is no one to play when i get online on EB so i just go play vanilla.

  3. #3
    Member Member Burebista's Avatar
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    Default Re: EB 101 (long post)

    What about roman boxes? they have no flanks and cata charges usually cost u more mnai than them. Not to add that few factions have the luxury of fielding 1 elite ranged units compared to the roman 3 ( balearic , cretan , saggitarius) and win the ranged duel.

    All i am saying is that roman cohorts should cost more. It doesnt make sanse that most elites cost more than roman regulars and do less . As far as i remember romans were a disciplined highly trained , heavy armed army . That must cost more than a bunch of naked gauls with shields and swords (Milnaht for ex)

  4. #4

    Default Re: EB 101 (long post)

    Quote Originally Posted by Fulminatrix View Post
    there is no one to play when i get online on EB so i just go play vanilla.
    Follow the red arrows.
    Quote Originally Posted by Burebista View Post
    What about roman boxes? they have no flanks and cata charges usually cost u more mnai than them. Not to add that few factions have the luxury of fielding 1 elite ranged units compared to the roman 3 ( balearic , cretan , saggitarius) and win the ranged duel.

    All i am saying is that roman cohorts should cost more. It doesnt make sanse that most elites cost more than roman regulars and do less . As far as i remember romans were a disciplined highly trained , heavy armed army . That must cost more than a bunch of naked gauls with shields and swords (Milnaht for ex)
    I'm all for revisiting the costs of the 500-something units in EB, even though it would take a while. I'm also eager to hear if anyone has yet figured out how to remove the guard-mode feature and to reprogram the engagement and pathfinding AI.

    As for the OP, players shouldn't be busy working around the flawed and broken game. They should be busy playing the game. The way it was meant to be played. If A > B, then A should defeat B. Unfortunately, the system doesn't realize this and allows for 2 + 2 = 5.
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  5. #5

    Default Re: EB 101 (long post)

    Quote Originally Posted by vartan View Post
    Follow the red arrows.

    I'm all for revisiting the costs of the 500-something units in EB, even though it would take a while. I'm also eager to hear if anyone has yet figured out how to remove the guard-mode feature and to reprogram the engagement and pathfinding AI.

    As for the OP, players shouldn't be busy working around the flawed and broken game. They should be busy playing the game. The way it was meant to be played. If A > B, then A should defeat B. Unfortunately, the system doesn't realize this and allows for 2 + 2 = 5.
    Yeah I don't see it that way, weaker infantry can withstand superior infantry if they hold formation in guard mode and gas their opponent. That is a principle of warfare, in classical history it was an often repeated phrase that the Gauls were more than men in the initial charge, and less than men at the end of a battle, this shows how the Romans fought defensively and wore the Gauls down against their shieldwall and killed them after they were exhausted. Same principle as EB, without guard mode the game becomes simpler, some want a straightforward slugfest in line with the better troop winning, but the higher level of play is reached through micromanagement on the flank, and better troops can fall to inferior troops depending on superior coordination, more well placed javelin volleys, more proficient skirmishing, combined arms etc.

  6. #6

    Default Re: EB 101 (long post)

    Quote Originally Posted by Burebista View Post
    What about roman boxes? they have no flanks and cata charges usually cost u more mnai than them. Not to add that few factions have the luxury of fielding 1 elite ranged units compared to the roman 3 ( balearic , cretan , saggitarius) and win the ranged duel.

    All i am saying is that roman cohorts should cost more. It doesnt make sanse that most elites cost more than roman regulars and do less . As far as i remember romans were a disciplined highly trained , heavy armed army . That must cost more than a bunch of naked gauls with shields and swords (Milnaht for ex)
    I agree Roman cohorts are underpriced, but so are Thrakian peltasts, bosphoran archers, Sarmatian nobles, Aorsi riders, Cretan mercenary archers, and Rhaetian axemen to name a few. I might also argue that phalanxes are broken because of their insane missile immunity. But its all about abusing advantages. The key to it is not straightforward slugfest but rather tactical micromanagement on the flanks. Against Romans I think there are various ways to beat a cohort box. Shoot down their cavalry and sagitarii with armored horse archers, then charge the right flank and exposed cohorts on the corners with lancers to break up the box.

    I also remember Neospartan played in the tourney as Aedui (one of my factions incidentally) last year and was destroying infantry lines real fast with Brihentin/gaesatae/druids/axemen/swordsmen swarming the flank. I recall a game where Neospartan fought a guy that played Koinon Hellenon, mostly Thorakitai in a box in guard mode with Cretan archers at the center, like 16 heavy infantry, he just sat there and waited for you to come to him just letting the Cretans draw you in. Neospartan swarmed one flank with extreme pressure and brihentin charges and the whole box chainrouted in like 2 minutes. The KH player was so upset that he quit the tournament. But the same strat would probably work against the Romans, its just a bit harder I think, but the same principle applies, that armies that just sit still will win if you fight on their own terms but lose if you break them up piecemeal.

  7. #7
    Member Member MisterFred's Avatar
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    Default Re: EB 101 (long post)

    Remember that in the tourney, you can't change faction. Probably the reason that most people are complaining about guard mode right now over cataphracts are that a number of people (especially ones with time to play all day) are playing factions conducive to such tactics (Rome and others) where as few are playing successor states who can really put the hammer down. That said, if its REAAALY frustrating and you'd prefer to figure out how to break the box in practice rather than a tourney game there are two tactics that work well:

    1) Sitting back yourself, or holding to the forest. Leads to draws as the Romans are too scared to engage you. Boring, I know. But sometimes you have to fight fire with fire. Or, in this case, don't fight with fire with someone else who refuses to fight with fire. Bring a good book. Sounds insane? You're using the same tactics they are.... Their main advantage in using guard mode is that they're willing to twiddle their thumbs and you aren't.

    2) Don't face someone who's used a strategy you don't want to fight again. If its not fun, fight someone else.

  8. #8

    Default Re: EB 101 (long post)

    Quote Originally Posted by MisterFred View Post
    2) Don't face someone who's used a strategy you don't want to fight again. If its not fun, fight someone else.
    Among the best lines all day.

    I don't think you got it, geticus. The issue regarding the guard mode, say, to represent the line relief used by the Romans, is as follows. In the RTW system, there are three ways to fight enemy units in melee.

    In the first method, you have guard mode off. It does not matter whether you order an attack or not order an attack: the attack happens upon collision detection.

    In the second method, you have guard mode on, and order an attack. Your men won't break formation, will face a general direction determined by their initial positioning, and will not chase after the enemy.

    In the third method, you have guard mode on, and do not order an attack. Your men will, in the eyes of the engine, be idling. No more, and no less. Yet you will observe fighting and killing of the enemy troops.

    In method 1 and 2, your men will tire over time because the engine determines them to be in fighting mode, and you can observe this by hovering the mouse over the unit. In method 3, your men will be idling, according to the engine, as you can again see by hovering your mouse over the unit.

    Methods 1 and 2 are fair, method 3 is unfair. And that is where the problem lies. The feature itself (i.e. guard mode) that tells your men not to chase routing units is fine, but the use of it to have idling-yet-fighting units is not fine/justified/fair/etc.

    Do you get that, geticus?
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  9. #9

    Default Re: EB 101 (long post)

    Vartan if there was a programming glitch it is news to me. What proof do you have, from the programmers or game developers themselves, that it is an actual glitch, and not a game feature that you simply disagree with?

    For my part I have seen my troops many times lose stamina in guard mode if they are strongly pressed and pushed off of their original station. They also never conserve stamina if they are set in guard mode and ordered to move to another station, and get attacked before reaching it.

  10. #10

    Default Re: EB 101 (long post)

    Quote Originally Posted by Geticus View Post
    Vartan if there was a programming glitch it is news to me. What proof do you have, from the programmers or game developers themselves, that it is an actual glitch, and not a game feature that you simply disagree with?

    For my part I have seen my troops many times lose stamina in guard mode if they are strongly pressed and pushed off of their original station. They also never conserve stamina if they are set in guard mode and ordered to move to another station, and get attacked before reaching it.
    You watch yet you do not see. Idle guard units rarely fight unless they are ordered to or they are run through. The combination of both glitch and bad programming of engagement and pathfinding AI is beyond understanding.
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  11. #11
    Villiage Idiot Member antisocialmunky's Avatar
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    Default Re: EB 101 (long post)

    It should be noted that you can beat them guard mode head on but it requires a bit of patience. You can attack until your units are winded - pullback - and rotate with AP assault infantry. This requires lots of patience but its the only way you can really chew through a Rome amount of infantry.

    You can also make one giant push using stacked assault infantry and try to break through the line. If you units are of sufficient mass, you can push your way through a unit by attacking with a wad of stacked units, sending another unit to hold your gains, pull back with your assault units and then rush in again until you literally batter you way through their line. However it doesn't work if the enemy has large amounts of reserves(You need about 3 lines of infantry against the KH to stop it dead). As such they have a much shorter line you can exploit...

    Problem with all these solutions is that cavalry is >>> better than them for general purpose use. If you can win the cav battle in 10 minutes and win 5 minutes later, do you really want to spend 30 minutes to chew through 12 cohorts without any cavalry support?
    Last edited by antisocialmunky; 07-09-2010 at 05:04.
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  12. #12

    Default Re: EB 101 (long post)

    Quote Originally Posted by vartan View Post
    You watch yet you do not see. Idle guard units rarely fight unless they are ordered to or they are run through. The combination of both glitch and bad programming of engagement and pathfinding AI is beyond understanding.
    Lol you're pretty insulting bud, to talk that way to one of your betters, at game play that is :)

    I'm no programmer, but my view has been that, in guard mode cohorts rarely lose stamina, since the majority are not considered to be fighting and only soldiers that are actually fighting cause stamina loss in guard mode. Generally if the AI attacks my cohort in guard mode with enough troops, on multiple sides, dislodging much of the unit, then the dislodged soldiers continuously try to move back to their original position, and this causes a fractional stamina loss. Based on that I do not think that guard mode guarantees no stamina loss, rather the AI recognizes all individual troops within a cohort that is in regular attack mode as attacking, and as such applies a maximum stamina loss per unit of time, while in a cohort that is in guard mode, the AI only registers stamina loss for units that are fighting or moving, and thereby registers a fractional stamina loss based on the number of units fighting/moving, while the remainder idle and register no stamina loss. This is why units in guard do lose stamina if sufficiently pressed. That is my impression of things anyways. But then again I'm no programmer, just a wargamer who is better at this game than you :)
    Last edited by Geticus; 07-09-2010 at 06:41.

  13. #13
    Member Member Burebista's Avatar
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    Default Re: EB 101 (long post)

    Well , what i'm reading is....it's ok that i have to micro like crazy to beat a guy that mostly sits idly. FUUUNNNN!! Especially when you lose.

  14. #14

    Default Re: EB 101 (long post)

    Quote Originally Posted by Geticus View Post
    I'm no programmer, but my view has been that, in guard mode cohorts rarely lose stamina, since the majority are not considered to be fighting and only soldiers that are actually fighting cause stamina loss in guard mode. Generally if the AI attacks my cohort in guard mode with enough troops, on multiple sides, dislodging much of the unit, then the dislodged soldiers continuously try to move back to their original position, and this causes a fractional stamina loss. Based on that I do not think that guard mode guarantees no stamina loss, rather the AI recognizes all individual troops within a cohort that is in regular attack mode as attacking, and as such applies a maximum stamina loss per unit of time, while in a cohort that is in guard mode, the AI only registers stamina loss for units that are fighting or moving, and thereby registers a fractional stamina loss based on the number of units fighting/moving, while the remainder idle and register no stamina loss. This is why units in guard do lose stamina if sufficiently pressed. That is my impression of things anyways. But then again I'm no programmer, just a wargamer who is better at this game than you :)
    Every balance needs a counter-balance, without which the world we live in would turn up-side down. People like you are why there are people like me, and vice versa. People like you are why people like me do things like this and this. Thank goodness your kind exist. Without you, there would be no I. Maybe I'll keep you notified regarding how the RTW engine registers collisions, stamina, fatigue, and so on. Or maybe I won't. It's always good to have a little mystery in life.
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    Villiage Idiot Member antisocialmunky's Avatar
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    Default Re: EB 101 (long post)

    People are blowing this out of proportion. The not that big of a problem unless its Rome because of hardy size 100 units in assumed 20 sized armies. I've played many KH games where I have just been overran by Aedui or Sweboz.

    Its like how in Starcraft at the mid-skill levels, many Terrans will take enough of the map where they can turtle and starve out the opponent. This takes less technical skill than a Zerg opponent who has to manage more bases around the whole map, more units, and has to find and exploit the weak points in the wall of Terran mines and tanks. Is it fun, not that much but its part of how the game is: the Terran can always choose to turtle and you have to throw the resources of the whole map at him to break them. Now when you get to higher levels, most Terrans don't turtle because most of the time its not an optimal strategy. You give up all map control when you do so people don't go Turtling Terran for the most part unless its a last stand sort of situation where you don't have any map control anyway.

    Like I've said before, play at lower money where skill matters more.
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  16. #16

    Default Re: EB 101 (long post)

    Quote Originally Posted by antisocialmunky View Post
    Like I've said before, play at lower money where skill matters more.
    Have you figured out yet the counter to mass lancers, HAs, and missile units at the 24k level? It's defeated the strongest Rome armies at 24k, and I know because I used the missile army myself.
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  17. #17
    Villiage Idiot Member antisocialmunky's Avatar
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    Default Re: EB 101 (long post)

    Mass Infantry + Missile? I don't know. Rome always has failed against Steppe type armies so I don't 24K wil change that.

    The the other hand, the last time I tried a mass HA + Lancer archer, I got murdered by pantodapoi(the 800 mnai variety). It was pretty Lol - Worthy.
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  18. #18
    Member Member Macilrille's Avatar
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    Default Re: EB 101 (long post)

    Time to rein in those egoes and whatnot, and start being civil I think.
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  19. #19
    Sandwich Maker Member Kikaz's Avatar
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    Default Re: EB 101 (long post)

    Perhaps for the next tournament, we should set the agreed mnai allotment at 29000?


  20. #20

    Default Re: EB 101 (long post)

    Quote Originally Posted by Kikaz View Post
    Perhaps for the next tournament, we should set the agreed mnai allotment at 29000?
    What's the reasoning behind this? You'd like to add a mid-level money game? We already have high and low.
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    πολέμαρχος Member Apázlinemjó's Avatar
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    Default Re: EB 101 (long post)

    Quote Originally Posted by vartan View Post
    What's the reasoning behind this? You'd like to add a mid-level money game? We already have high and low.
    Everybody wants to set the money limit to their own needs. That's why ASM wanted the low-level money game, because then his chevroned hoplites and thuerophoroi won't fight anything heavier than them. Lul.
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    Default Re: EB 101 (long post)

    Quote Originally Posted by Apázlinemjó View Post
    Everybody wants to set the money limit to their own needs. That's why ASM wanted the low-level money game, because then his chevroned hoplites and thuerophoroi won't fight anything heavier than them. Lul.
    Indeed. No matter what level you play at, there will always be a seemingly larger proportion of heavily armoured troops than one might expect from all his readings on historic battles (what proportion was heavy, after all?)
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  23. #23
    Villiage Idiot Member antisocialmunky's Avatar
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    Default Re: EB 101 (long post)

    Quote Originally Posted by Apázlinemjó View Post
    Everybody wants to set the money limit to their own needs. That's why ASM wanted the low-level money game, because then his chevroned hoplites and thuerophoroi won't fight anything heavier than them. Lul.
    Fighting isn't about winning, it's about depriving your enemy of all options except to lose.



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  24. #24
    πολέμαρχος Member Apázlinemjó's Avatar
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    Default Re: EB 101 (long post)

    Quote Originally Posted by antisocialmunky View Post
    No offense. :P
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