Economic Victory Conditions

[easytarget]

I've decided I'm not up for slogging through the military victory conditions first time through, maybe next round.

So, economic it is, and it's not like you don't have to tackle some provinces, I mean 90 still is a lot.

Here's my specific question on the one criteria I'm not sure on: it says 80k at the end of your turn. Is that 80k income per turn? Or 80k total? The former seems rather high and the latter rather low. Currently w/ only about 10 or 12 provinces under my belt and still needing to take like another 60 freaking settlements still my income is nearly 20k a turn.

Is anyone contemplating winning on economic really expected to crank out 80k a turn in income?

[Bramborough]

Yep, it's 80K net income, i.e., after expenditures. And yes it does seem a bit daunting.

I don't think it's as hard as it sounds, though. By the time you meet the 90-settlement requirement, your empire will be amply sufficient to net 80K.

The key will be expanding in such a way that you occupy (at least with MAs or clients) the required provinces, and have one source of all the required resources (which have to be in your own territory; MA or client controlled resources don't count). Initially this may sound easy, but lead and silk are pretty scarce and way out on the fringes (at least from Rome's perspective).

It can also be maddeningly difficult to get the last couple of trade partners you need. Small factions get bumped off...or access to their capital cut...all the time. Seems like every time I gain a trade partner, I lose one somewhere else because they get conquered or lose their port.

All in all, the strategic locations & resources plus need for 20 trade agreements, make this really of a "economic/diplomatic" victory, rather than just purely economic.

In any case, once you've got the settlement, territory, trade partner, and resource requirements completed, meeting the 80K requirement can be done in a bit of a gimmicky way. Disestablish some of your armies, and cut the remainder to about half-size...you need to keep a mere 70 units, which is only 3.5 full stacks. This will massively reduce your upkeep, and free up at least 10K, maybe as much as 15K. Then just zoom your taxes up to Very High. Your public order will go bananas, but doesn't really matter, it's just one turn, and bingo, you win.

[Sp4]

If I set my taxes all the way to the max, I can get 60k/turn and that's with all available armies and all but 4 of them have the best quality I can get from my barracks and I just barely control half the map, maybe 17 or 18 provinces? I'm not even sure if the game has 90 provinces. I guess you mean settlements. It doesn't seem like such a hard to reach goal. Knowing myself, I am going to accidentally win on some condition I didn't want to win on.

[easytarget]

Right, meant 90 settlements.

Ok, thanks guys, so it is 80k.

That's alright, it can be done. I'll just conquer the number of settlements needed, focus on insuring I have the right provinces listed and when I'm set on every other criteria, I'll just disband armies and raise taxes to get to the number. I think as I control more provinces headed towards the 90 settlement number this won't prove a problem. I'm at 20k a a turn right now and have 2/3 of the number of settlements needed yet to conquered.

I'm 8 of 9 on resources, I've not paid attention to which one I'm missing, hope I pick that up by dumb luck along the way. ;)

And you're right, getting the requsite number of trade partners can be maddeningly stupid when you have a lot of money because they make demands for payment to cement the deal that are just completely dumb and really something CA needs to fix (there should NEVER be a request by a faction that I could steam roll with one stack asking me for more money to trade with them than I will ever recoup the rest of the campaign - but for needing that trade agreement, I would obliterate out of existence just about every faction in this game for the completely stupid things they request).

[Sp4]

*grumble grumble* Yeah I am just going to go and send over this really inconsequential amount of soldiers and take your trade for me.



I wonder what sort of rebellions I had on my hands if my legionaires knew I'd rather spend them than some currency I get every turn

[Quillan]

and have one source of all the required resources (which have to be in your own territory; MA or client controlled resources don't count). Initially this may sound easy, but lead and silk are pretty scarce and way out on the fringes (at least from Rome's perspective).

Trade sources DO count; I can attest from personal experience. However, those sources are always at risk. In my first game as Rome, Edessa was in the hands of Cappadocia, with whom I was a military ally and trading partner. Under the tab for economic victory, it showed that I had 9/9 unique resources. However, on the turn where I cranked my tax rate up to "win" the game by going over 80k net income (was about 60k at the time), Cappadocia lost the region to Media Atropane. I had to declare war on them and seize the region to win.

[andrewt]

If I set my taxes all the way to the max, I can get 60k/turn and that's with all available armies and all but 4 of them have the best quality I can get from my barracks and I just barely control half the map, maybe 17 or 18 provinces? I'm not even sure if the game has 90 provinces. I guess you mean settlements. It doesn't seem like such a hard to reach goal. Knowing myself, I am going to accidentally win on some condition I didn't want to win on.

I'm at around 60k/turn with roughly 17-20 provinces in my game as well. I have had taxes at max almost since the beginning and just plan my provinces around the public order penalty. The 20% corruption reduction from being an Empire really helps. There are also enough technologies for a further 60% reduction in corruption. I believe there's also 12% increase in taxes from technologies.

[nearchos]

Im with 120 provinces as Macedon, 9/9 resources, ( i own them all), i make 65K, and with the taxes very high and some dispanding i will reach the 80k, but only 10 factions are trading with me and the best was 15 trade agreements during the campaign.
I cant get a trade agreement since a long time ago, to give you an example, i m offering trade agreement to client states of mine very friently, ofering them over half of my tresury, 800k 900k, 1000k and they reject.
Thats something that needs fixing i think, i mean trade is profitable for both parties there is no logic in this.
Moreover, as the game goes, my trade parteners, even client states and very friently are breaking the trade agreements with me.

[Sp4]

I've only once had the 20 required trade agreements for an economic victory and that was when I was playing a fairly passive campaign as Sparta (a co op campaign actually) in which I secured Hellas and Macedonia for myself and then just made peace with everyone and waited for the incredibly long AI turns to end and building my little empire but that means I wont have the necessary room/space for the economic victory, sooo.. I guess a way you could try is by just subjugating everyone you run into on your conquests and having trade with them. It's probably easier as one of the barbarian factions because they get the whole 'Liberate' option, which makes your diplomatic 'score' with the liberated faction go through the roof, so they'll accept anything that isn't a request to join your confederation.

-E- Actually, I think the liberate option comes up when you defeat someone who has taken a province that originally belonged to someone else and it is that someone else you liberate/reinstate. I tried to do it as the Romans for the Iceni when invading Britain but I don't think I got the option.

In my Gaul campaign, I liberated Massalia a bunch of times after they keep getting run over by Carthage.

[nearchos]

Well, that isnt working for me in single player no matter what i do or what i offer, no one wants to trade and i mean not even factions i have turned in client states, so i have to achive military victory.

[Sp4]

Well, that isnt working for me in single player no matter what i do or what i offer, no one wants to trade and i mean not even factions i have turned in client states, so i have to achive military victory.

Yes, it's kind of funny how you allow a faction to survive on the terms that they now pay you 50 gold a turn in tribute and then they still run around refusing trade with you. You should be able to force trade agreements or something.

[Bramborough]

Im with 120 provinces as Macedon, 9/9 resources, ( i own them all), i make 65K, and with the taxes very high and some dispanding i will reach the 80k, but only 10 factions are trading with me and the best was 15 trade agreements during the campaign.
I cant get a trade agreement since a long time ago, to give you an example, i m offering trade agreement to client states of mine very friently, ofering them over half of my tresury, 800k 900k, 1000k and they reject.
Thats something that needs fixing i think, i mean trade is profitable for both parties there is no logic in this.
Moreover, as the game goes, my trade parteners, even client states and very friently are breaking the trade agreements with me.

One factor I realized late in my last campaign (and after I posted above in this thread): As your empire continues to grow, you're covering more and more of the map...which means less room for everybody else. So factions die off as the game progresses, not just from your own expansion but also from some of the other AI factions who may be doing decently themselves. Plus, there's always a few factions you can't trade with even if they'd agree, because of geographic blockage. Somewhere around 110 or 120 settlements, I reached a point where I would have had to get a trade agreement with every remaining geographically-accessible faction. Some of these were at war and probably going to die soon, others that just plain hated my guts and would've taken forever to get their diplo status up to a feasible range. At that point I realized that the "20 trade agreement" requirement is probably the hardest eco-victory condition by far.

If you're at 120 settlements, might want to count through the factions in diplo tab and see if it's even possible to get 20 trade agreements.

[Sp4]

I'm at 80 settlements and there aren't even 20 factions anymore >_>

[andrewt]

I pretty much knew that the 20 trade agreement requirement would be the hardest the moment I saw it, knowing how diplomacy in previous CA titles worked. Carthage's is even worse because it requires 25.

[easytarget]

I'm at 80 settlements and there aren't even 20 factions anymore >_>

Yeah, shocker, another element of the game not well thought out. Just like no short campaign option.

Who on earth requires you to pick up 90 settlements on an economic victory? That's supposed to be the turtler option, not the war monger.

[Bramborough]

Yeah, shocker, another element of the game not well thought out. Just like no short campaign option.

Who on earth requires you to pick up 90 settlements on an economic victory? That's supposed to be the turtler option, not the war monger.

I would suppose that's a major reason why Military Allies and Client States count toward the victory condition....the regions are "yours", but you can still trade with them.

That said, in the campaign to which I referred above, I used MAs and CSs pretty extensively, over 25% of "my" settlements were in blue territory. And still I reached a point where there just weren't enough factions left to realistically make 20 agreements.

It doesn't help that Client States often stubbornly refuse to trade with their Big Brother faction, even decades after the initial subjugation and all the old-school hate is gone from the diplomatic modifiers.

[nearchos]

One factor I realized late in my last campaign (and after I posted above in this thread): As your empire continues to grow, you're covering more and more of the map...which means less room for everybody else. So factions die off as the game progresses, not just from your own expansion but also from some of the other AI factions who may be doing decently themselves. Plus, there's always a few factions you can't trade with even if they'd agree, because of geographic blockage. Somewhere around 110 or 120 settlements, I reached a point where I would have had to get a trade agreement with every remaining geographically-accessible faction. Some of these were at war and probably going to die soon, others that just plain hated my guts and would've taken forever to get their diplo status up to a feasible range. At that point I realized that the "20 trade agreement" requirement is probably the hardest eco-victory condition by far.

If you're at 120 settlements, might want to count through the factions in diplo tab and see if it's even possible to get 20 trade agreements.

Yes, that is correct, probably there arent enough factions around to get the 20 trade agreements but the problem i want to point is that its almost imposible to get a trade agreement, even with factions very friendly and giving them a lot of money.
Now after last night turns im with 128 provinces and only 2 trade agreements, because from the 10 i had, 8 of them broke them and 3 of them were client states.
So i think that this needs fixing among with other things, for a more resonable AI in diplomacy, wich to be honest, in comparison with the previous TW titles where there wasnt actualy any, performs better.
At least now a non agresion pact, or a client state has a meaning to some point.

[andrewt]

I would suppose that's a major reason why Military Allies and Client States count toward the victory condition....the regions are "yours", but you can still trade with them.

That said, in the campaign to which I referred above, I used MAs and CSs pretty extensively, over 25% of "my" settlements were in blue territory. And still I reached a point where there just weren't enough factions left to realistically make 20 agreements.

It doesn't help that Client States often stubbornly refuse to trade with their Big Brother faction, even decades after the initial subjugation and all the old-school hate is gone from the diplomatic modifiers.

Client States are just not thought out well. A few turns ago, my client state I subjugated close to 100 turns ago just decided to cancel our trade agreement for no good reason. They got 8000 because I was trying to figure out how much is needed to get a trade agreement back. I had so much money at that point in the game that I didn't care. If that happened early enough in the game that income mattered, that would be a reload and a punitive expedition mounted.

[Bramborough]

Client States are just not thought out well. A few turns ago, my client state I subjugated close to 100 turns ago just decided to cancel our trade agreement for no good reason. They got 8000 because I was trying to figure out how much is needed to get a trade agreement back. I had so much money at that point in the game that I didn't care. If that happened early enough in the game that income mattered, that would be a reload and a punitive expedition mounted.

True, but earlier in the game they wouldn't have held out for so much. Took me a while to realize this, but AI factions' $$$ demands aren't based on a discrete amount, but rather a percentage of your treasury. In this case, say, maybe they agreed to settle for 8000 because that was 20% of your treasury, if you were sitting at 40,000 in the bank. Whereas 100 turns ago, perhaps ending a turn with only 4000 in the treasury was more realistic; all else being equal, in that case they would've settled for only 800. So, diplo-wise, there's an inherent benefit to spending all the cash you're going to in a turn before initiating any negotiations with other factions, so that your treasury is as low as you can reasonably make it.

That said, I fully agree that CSs are jacked up. They should trade with you on demand, and not break the trade agreement afterward. They shouldn't declare war on you (didn't think that was possible for a long time...til it happened to me...). They shouldn't make war on another one of your CSs or MAs...and if they're at war with such at the time they become your CS, they should damn well make peace immediately. They shouldn't DW on one of your other enemies unless specifically asked (or more accurately, instructed) to do so. Bottom line, CSs should cede some substantial advantages to the player in return for being allowed to live...right now sufficient incentives to "clientize" factions really don't exist.

[andrewt]

Oh, no. I did the trick where I could move it based on 10% of their wealth instead of mine. They wouldn't accept 6000 and only accepted 8000.

War is another annoying thing with client states. Feels like I have a client state world war going on.

edit: I think I figured out what happened. It looks like the standard CA diplomacy philosophy where after you hit a certain size, diplomacy is essentially shut down. All the AI factions look like they are hard coded not to accept any deals with me any longer. Even a 2 million+ bribe would not get any trade agreements, military alliances or even non-aggression pacts with anybody.

The sad part is that I only have 1 more port settlement than the minimum required amount for an economic victory. If you need to conquer provinces to have trade access to landlocked AI factions, you might completely screw yourself out of an economic victory by hitting the NO DIPLOMACY threshold.

[easytarget]

I hope CA decides at some point to fix this 10% of your current worth mechanism in negotiations.

It's just silly by mid to late game for factions to be asking me for 50k for a non-aggression pact or for trade (that will never recoup by the time the campaign ends).

I've no idea what they were thinking here locking this down, I'm sure they thought they were making it easier and streamlining things, but it's just one of a hundred things that then looks like no one play tested it even once to take notice of unintended really stupid consequences in game play as you go deeper into a campaign.

Honestly, did anyone at CA actually play an entire campaign through once?

[easytarget]

I'm at the point now where I'm being turned down when I offer 3-400k, the faction response is still low. I'm offering them 100 times what I will make off their trade ever, and they aren't even considering it.

Eco victory is broken, or working through some mechanic I've yet to decipher...

Oh, and best of all, there aren't 20 factions left in the game that I can even trade with even if they were willing, because a good 1/3 of them say the following: "Sea trade route unavailable".

Question for anyone: have you ever opened up the diplo screen and not been given any option to initiate diplomacy? Example: I currently want to make peace and start trade (of course) with Persia, when I open the screen to ask for peace, there's no box to open up to offer it, you literally can't do anything. WTF?

[nearchos]

Question for anyone: have you ever opened up the diplo screen and not been given any option to initiate diplomacy? Example: I currently want to make peace and start trade (of course) with Persia, when I open the screen to ask for peace, there's no box to open up to offer it, you literally can't do anything.

Yes, it happens, when you are at war with a faction and its CS or satrapies.
In this case you can only open negotiations with the rouling faction.
Resently as Parthia, i was at war with Seleucid empire and all its satrapies and the diplomacy screen was giving options only with the Seleucid empire.

[easytarget]

Ah, thanks for the answer nearchos. Good to know. It would be nice if there was some menu call out that told you that.