MoH Emergency Session Voting

[TinCow]

Please vote Yes for ALL proposals that would be acceptable to you, even if that means voting for multiple proposals. If multiple proposals pass the 2/3 requirement, the one which has the highest number of votes will be enacted. If there is a tie, there will be an either/or re-vote to determine which will be enacted.

The three separate proposals are:

E2.1: Rule 1.2 will have the following text added to it: "If a Man of the Hour adoption is offered, the choice of whether to accept the adoption will be up to the adoptee, unless the adopter already has 2 non-natural children, in which case the choice will be up to the adopter."

E2.2: Rule 1.2 will have the following text added to it: "If a Man of the Hour adoption is offered to an avatar, the choice of whether to accept it is entirely up to the avatar who is the adopter."

E2.3: Rule 1.2 will have the following text added to it: "If a Man of the Hour adoption is offered, the choice of whether to accept the adoption will be up to the Emperor."

The voting period will be 24 hours and will expire at 6pm EST on Monday, July 7th. I may extend the voting for a further 24 hour period of the vote is close and there are many votes still outstanding.

[Ituralde]

So I only voted YES for E2.1, should I have voted NO for E2.2 and E2.3 then. Somehow the possibility of voting NO only occured to me after I hit the "vote" button. While I'm still undecided about E2.3 I would definetlly vote NO for E2.2!

[TinCow]

I will mark you down as a yes on 2.1, a no on 2.2, and nothing on 2.3.

[Privateerkev]

So what happens if none of them hit the 2/3'rds requirement?

[TinCow]

I'll deal with it if it happens.

[Privateerkev]

I'll deal with it if it happens.

Ok, I was just curious because none of them look likely to pass unless we get some absent players to come and vote.

[Ferret]

edit: bad post

edit2: actually it was a good post. E2.2 already has over a 2/3 majority it just doesn't show that in the poll as someone/some people must have abstained. Still 14/20 voters is over 2/3 unless my maths is really bad...

[Privateerkev]

edit2: actually it was a good post. E2.2 already has over a 2/3 majority it just doesn't show that in the poll as someone/some people must have abstained. Still 14/20 voters is over 2/3 unless my maths is really bad...

Your right on the conclusion but off on the particulars.

I was looking at the poll's percentage for that CA. It listed it as below .66 but that is because it factored in the 2 people who didn't vote for it.

Also, Ituralde has written in his vote as a no.

So now, it's 14 yes votes out of 21 total for that CA.

which is 2/3rds exactly. So, as it stands, it will actually pass.

[_Tristan_]

So it seems like I won't get that MoH...

There will be hell to pay...

EDIT : Whoever said that honesty pays...

[TinCow]

Well, 2.1 and 2.3 have definitely failed to pass. 2.2 is currently passing by just the exact margin needed. If it remains that way, then the vote is pretty definitive. If it fails by only 1 vote, I will change my vote to yes simply to avoid any kind of revote.

Tristan: 2.2 passing doesn't mean you won't get it, it just means that Zim gets to decide. If you think he will reject it IC, perhaps it would be a good idea to do some IC negotiations. He allows the adoption, you do some kind of service for him. Seems fair and likely to succeed, especially since you'll probably have Zagreb back under your control by the end of this term.

[Ferret]

Zim might even like it if you swore fealty to him in return for gaining a place on the tree

[Privateerkev]

But then Hypatios won't be a Hypatos. I'm sorry but this quite simply can not be allowed to happen. You may not take away, what is potentially, years of Hypatos Hypatios jokes.

[_Tristan_]

Zim has already stated that he sees no reason IC for adopting Methodios...

And seeing how Methodios previously left Asteri...

I see no IC reason nor IC means of redemption...

That sucks big time...

[Privateerkev]

Doesn't mean there can't be some IC haggling.

You want on the tree. They want landed nobles in their feudal chain.

(yes I know you don't have land now but you will in the future.)

[_Tristan_]

Frankly, it is not worth the bother...

Others be warned : better get on Zim/Igno's good side now because he has even more power now that the Basileos... (where the future of the Empire is concerned...)

That will leave a greatly disgruntled Methodios ( and a somewhat disgruntled Tristan...)

[Privateerkev]

Would this be a good time to bring up regular adoptions and marriages?

Since it looks like the "adopter" gets to approve MotH's, how about letting him decide regular adoptions and marriages. Or are those two things still under the purview of the Megas?

As it stands, Zim will be able to deny Methodios's MotH, but if FD sees a marriage offer for Kosmas, he can accept it without talking to Zim before hand. He also would still be able to fill up all of the Caesar's "slots" with adoptees and deny him natural born kids.

I'm against CA 2.2 but we should at least be consistent...

[Ituralde]

I dislike E2.2! Just to get that out of the system.

PKs comments would have been the next thing I'd have brought up too. What about the regular adoptions. And also on the implementation of E2.2, the Megas now has to save the game once the MotH message pops up by just hitting escape, then he goes ahead and accepts his, looks on the family tree who would be the adopter and then posts that information in the Megas' Report thread?
Just that I get the proceedings right and don't 'loose' a MotH offer...

[Zim]

Hmmm... assuming for this post that 2.2 passes, why would Methodios be disgruntled? Is this event to be interpretted as him asking Kosmas to adopt him? If so why did he think someone he barely knows with whom his few interactions have been mildly negative would do so?

I'm not trying to be mean but if either of the latter two choices pass, we'll have to figure this out IC. I don't care much about Kosmas' children slots, and I'm not about to try to bribe someone into my House. If we can work out something even semi-plausable IC I have no problem with the adoption.

Frankly, it is not worth the bother...

Others be warned : better get on Zim/Igno's good side now because he has even more power now that the Basileos... (where the future of the Empire is concerned...)

That will leave a greatly disgruntled Methodios ( and a somewhat disgruntled Tristan...)

[TheFlax]

Frankly, it is not worth the bother...

Others be warned : better get on Zim/Igno's good side now because he has even more power now that the Basileos... (where the future of the Empire is concerned...)

That will leave a greatly disgruntled Methodios ( and a somewhat disgruntled Tristan...)

Very soon there will be Deguerra (Ioannis Kalameteros) who can also take in MotH.

[Ituralde]

@Zim

The way I gathered it from the IC supporters a MotH event would translate to an IC situation where Methodios Tagarias has won such an outstanding victory against his foes that 'the people' (OOC: the game mechanic) feel it would be justified for him to join the Imperial family, as a reward for his services for the Empire. Now it would be up to your character to decide whether he follows the sentiment of 'the people' and grants Methodios a place in the Imperial family or whether he refuses, not acknowledging Methodios achievements.

At least that's my sentiment from following the discussion. Of course 2.2 is only a kind of OOC rule about the whole issue so there really is no 'official' way to handle this IC. It would then be up to the individuals involved to work on an IC solution. After all we play this game together and not against each other!

So if 2.2 passes this is your chance to write history as your handling of the event will probably set some kind of IC precedent that will be followed by most people around here. At least that's how it works with these things most of the times!

[TinCow]

Regular adoptions and marriages will be left entirely up to the Megas, though I would very highly recommend that the Megas never turn down a marriage unless the player concerned has specifically requested no marriage. Adoptions are not even remotely like a MotH, because they do not involve a current player's avatar becoming part of another player's family IC. An adoption is simply a new 'child' that has skipped the coming of age portion. It can be roleplayed as a non-blood tie for many obvious reasons, but could even be roleplayed as a legitimate blood tie (i.e. orphaned nephew being adopted). I see no IC or OOC reason to slow down the game for a pure adoption.

[Andres]

I made a mistake in voting.

My votes should have been as such:

2.1. : No
2.2. : No
2.3. : Yes

Sorry for the inconvenience TinCow

An adoption concerns the royal family, hence the Basileus should be the one to decide.

[deguerra]

Hmmm...many good points have been raised here. I'm not exactly revising my opinion, which was to support 2.2, because I think we have preciously few game mechanics we can use IC and this is a good one. But I can see that there are some OOC ramifications.

IC we want adoptions to make sense, we want there to be some kind of meaningful relationship between the two characters involved and we want the reward to be significant. Winning a heroic victory is not hard, especially for those much more talented than I, and it feels like it cheapens the experience if it were quite that easy to get on the family tree.

OOC we want lots of family members, because they can have kids and marry and move the game past a mostly RBG stage.And we do recognise that the game offers more opportunities on the family tree than off it, so it would be unfair and somewhat detrimental to the game.

Seeing how close all the votes are, it is clear that there are two quite divided camps, neither of which is terribly happy with the other solution.

Perhaps we could somehow combine them? Say, for example, that for OOC and game purposes a character should nearly always be adopted, unless there are very pressing IC issues of either the adopter, the Emperor, or both. It would mean that most adoptions would take place, which is good game-wise and beneficial to the player who got MotH. And it still leaves some wiggle room for IC maneuvering and other issues.

I realize this is far from perfect, it will still mean that the game will have to be stopped and it will still not be all that great to those who greatly favour one option over the other. It is, in short, a compromise, and compromises are never great.

On a last note, don't lay this issue at Zim's feet please, and should my idea go through and Zim decides that there are pressing enough IC issues (Methodios did abandon our House after all) then I would ask that that be accepted and the matter laid to rest. The idea is for all of us to have fun, and roleplaying is a major element of that to more than a few people.

Now to shamelessly copy Ramses to let everyone know I am not angry and this is all in good spirits:

[TinCow]

E2.1 fails by a large margin.

E2.2 fails:
Yes (15): 00jebus, Cecil XIX, deguerra, Elite Ferret, FLYdude, GeneralHankerchief, Ibn-Khaldun, Ignoramus, Northnovas, pevergreen, Ramses II CP, rossahh, TheFlax, YourLordandConqueror, Zim
No (9): Andres, AussieGiant, BananaBob, Ituralde, OverKnight, Privateerkev, Rowan, TinCow, Tristan de Castelreng

E2.3 fails by a large margin.

Since this results in no legislation passing, I hereby change my vote on E2.2, which results in 16 in favor and 8 opposed. This meets the 2/3 requirements and E2.2 passes. Zim will now get to decide whether Tristan will be adopted. For OOC purposes, I would very much prefer if some kind of IC rational for adoption could be reached.

The game is hereby unfrozen, but it will revert back to the save game where the MoH adoption was still up in the air (this save). No one may take the save until Zim has made his decision. FLYdude may then implement the decision and the save is then back in his hands.

[AussieGiant]

E2.1 fails by a large margin.

E2.2 fails:
Yes (15): 00jebus, Cecil XIX, deguerra, Elite Ferret, FLYdude, GeneralHankerchief, Ibn-Khaldun, Ignoramus, Northnovas, pevergreen, Ramses II CP, rossahh, TheFlax, YourLordandConqueror, Zim
No (9): Andres, AussieGiant, BananaBob, Ituralde, OverKnight, Privateerkev, Rowan, TinCow, Tristan de Castelreng

E2.3 fails by a large margin.

Since this results in no legislation passing, I hereby change my vote on E2.2, which results in 16 in favor and 8 opposed. This meets the 2/3 requirements and E2.2 passes. Zim will now get to decide whether Tristan will be adopted. For OOC purposes, I would very much prefer if some kind of IC rational for adoption could be reached.

The game is hereby unfrozen, but it will revert back to the save game where the MoH adoption was still up in the air (this save). No one may take the save until Zim has made his decision. FLYdude may then implement the decision and the save is then back in his hands.

I love it when you get all bossy and lawyer like TC