Ok, so game has been out for 2 years now...

[Kadagar_AV]

Too much censorship on these boards.

[Jason X]

cool - a retro thread. i'll try and dig out the clothes i was wearing back in jan 2007

[Ratwar]

You know, this reminds me of a certain Gordon Frohman comic...

Anyways, yes there are still multiple things wrong with MTW2. The same could be said about basically any game that is as ambitious as the Total War series. Creating a AI that can react to the TRILLIONS of possible inputs from the player is hard enough. Making them react to all the inputs rationally is practically impossible. You want a strategy AI capable of passing a Turing Test, they just don't exist.

Now, if you want horrible AI, I would suggest a game like Star Wars Rebellion.

[Gaiseric]

These things frustrate me too. I've just started playing MTW2 again but will likely put it back on the shelf in about a month for these same reasons. I played RTW recently and could see the major improvements in alot of areas. Many more improvements will probably be released in future versions. There are also many good mods around that fix a few things and add more depth to the game.

When MTW2 first came out I loved it. It was only after I played it too much that I realized some of its flaws. I would still say the game is great and I definatly got my moneys worth. I paid retail prices for both MTW2 and its expansion and I am still getting enjoyment out of playing its campaigns. The replayability for this game is huge compared to other games on the market with playtimes as low as 40 hours. A great game for the casual gamer.

Us diehard gamers on the forums have got our moneys worth for the game and now we are seeing that it has some major flaws. I would absolutley love another patch or two, but I think that it would be pretty unlikely 2 years after the release. For now, all that we can do is hope and pray that the next TW game will be better, and that it will give modders more access to fix things that the devs dont patch.

[pevergreen]

Discussion about E:TW has taken place, and not only are CA claiming vast improvements, those that have played it are confirming it. With Lusted/Jack Lusted working for CA, you can be sure it will be good.

Khadgar, our differences aside () I honestly don't see the value of bringing up a post that basically says "Oh no, CA are bad because they stopped patching a game." Yes, its still bugged, but complaining about a lack of patches when we know we werent going to get anymore is a bit pointless IMO.

[Akka]

Discussion about E:TW has taken place, and not only are CA claiming vast improvements

On the other hand, they ALWAYS said that for every single of their new game...
To be fair, EVERYONE in the industry ALWAYS say that for every single of their new game :p

In other words, it's meaningless ^^

those that have played it are confirming it.

That is, actually, a much more noticeable point.

Khadgar, our differences aside () I honestly don't see the value of bringing up a post that basically says "Oh no, CA are bad because they stopped patching a game." Yes, its still bugged, but complaining about a lack of patches when we know we werent going to get anymore is a bit pointless IMO.

Well, not really, it makes the point. I am part of the people who won't buy E:TW due to the long history of CA not making their previous games works properly. Making sure that they understand how they did piss off many of their customers with the "half-finished game" practice is not useless.

[pevergreen]

I wholeheartedly agree with at least waiting to see what the game is like, but I have to say. Before I came here, I never knew any of these bugs existed. I didnt pay attention to the bug threads when I played M2TW and I never had encountered any of those bugs! The casual gamer isnt going to go and dissect the game to find out if everything works 100% or not. I fully intend to buy E:TW and post up a review of sorts, so that the rest of this community can see just how it plays and how "buggy" it is.

[Akka]

I wholeheartedly agree with at least waiting to see what the game is like, but I have to say. Before I came here, I never knew any of these bugs existed. I didnt pay attention to the bug threads when I played M2TW and I never had encountered any of those bugs! The casual gamer isnt going to go and dissect the game to find out if everything works 100% or not. I fully intend to buy E:TW and post up a review of sorts, so that the rest of this community can see just how it plays and how "buggy" it is.

You'll tell me that you never noticed the lack of cohesion in units ? The fact that if a single man in a unit enters combat, the entire unit stop charging ? That when a unit fight, only a very small numbers of men DO fight, and the rest just stand idle stupidly, waiting to take turns ?
This doesn't require dissection of the game. Just look at the fights and it jumps in your face.

[Marauder]

I have a somewhat unique perspective on these boards: I've never played another TW game and I bought MTW2 about 2 months ago on a whim, while looking for another game.

This certainly puts me in your "causual gamer" catagory, which is about 90% of the gamers that buy games. It didn't take much to realize that the AI was weak. When I start up the game and thoroughly dominate the AI in all aspects of the game on M/M with zero experience in these games, it says something about the games (or that Econ's FAQ is really good, I read that a bit). I certainly noticed a lot of bugs and strange AI behavior very quickly, even after switching to VH/VH (my favorite AI move of all time is the faction leader by himself sieging a citidel with 20 full units). The biggest challenge are the mongol/timurid invasions, which are artificially harder to make up for lackluster AI.

That said, I've certainly got my money's worth from the game and would shell out $50 for the next version if the initial reviews are favorable. That is unless Starcraft 2 comes out first, then I might have to delay my purchase...

[Biggus Diccus]

You'll tell me that you never noticed the lack of cohesion in units ? The fact that if a single man in a unit enters combat, the entire unit stop charging ? That when a unit fight, only a very small numbers of men DO fight, and the rest just stand idle stupidly, waiting to take turns ?
This doesn't require dissection of the game. Just look at the fights and it jumps in your face.

This is EXACTLY what annoys me the most about this game! Trying to make those unwilling infantry grunts fight is really frustrating; I actually run my units THROUGH the enemy and then click attack

I was actually thinking of reinstalling and play MTW2 again but reading this thread reminded me why I stopped playing in the first place.

[Akka]

Well, you may be happy to retry it then !
I've been trying to find a way to alleviate (at least partially) this horrible implementation for years, and I found it barely a few days ago !

A hidden field in the unit files which allows to change the size each man occupy on the field of battle.
Don't completely fix the fighting (seems the engine don't allow more than one or two people to attack one, so you still see men right in the front not fighting), but it improves TREMENDOUSLY cohesion, fluidity of movements and the like. Makes the fighting much more like RTW all in all (and cavalry may be quite overpowered because of this, but well, I don't really mind cavalry being overpowered in medieval settings).

I may make a quick thread in the modding forum (even though it's a really small change, even if it has lots of consequences) if enough people are interested.

[Biggus Diccus]

If you can deliver something like this I'll be very happy to reinstall and play again! You should definitely make a thread about this trick. Death to cowardly infantrymen!

[Point_Blank]

Cohesion can be almost completely fixed by:
-hidden field as above, set to 0.3 for spearmen. For other units its not really appropriate
-reduce charge distance to about 6m
-set second field in formation line to zero (ie distance between ranks)
-edit animations so that all instances of 'shuffle_backward' are replaced with 'shuffle_forward', except for spearmen which replace it by 'ready'

Please check out Real Recruitment / Real Combat, requires SS6.1 + SSTC + SSTC 1.2 patch + SSTC hotfix:
Thread: http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showthread.php?t=197224
Download: http://files.filefront.com/RRRCexe/;.../fileinfo.html

[Akka]

!

This is VERY interesting, Point Blank :)
Though I used 0,15 in the hidden field for ALL units, maybe I won't need it if applying the other changes. I'll definitely look into the info you've given and tinker with it, great thanks :)

[Point_Blank]

You will likely find 0.15 causes extreme unit density, with soldiers merging into eachother. The animation fix is the most important thing. But seriously, with those changes cohesion is no longer an issue. The battles look great, like they should have when the product was released.

[TheLastPrivate]

Just like many other games these days mods keep it alive. RC and SS are completing the game by doing what CA should have done before the game was released.

[Gaiseric]

If you find the AI to be to much of a push over, you should use ironman rules for yourself to make the game more challenging and rewarding.

Most of the battles I fight involve flanking the enemy and hiting them from the sides and rear resulting in mass rout. I spend more time in every battle chasing routers than I do fighting the enemy. Recently I have limited my use of flanking and it has made the battles last much longer and much more enjoyable. You will get higher casualties, but the battles will be more fun.

The Broken Cresent Mod adds to the difficulty by adding an area of recruitment system where you can only recruit tough and elite units around your home provices. Not being able to retrain and reinforce your armies without marching armies from your homelands can be a great challenge.

There are also other mods that add alot of cool features to keep the game interesting. Lands to Conquer gives enormous amounts of money to the AI to make it field some tough stacks. Deus Lo Vult adds an RPG element that makes it more fun to develop your generals. Stainless Steel adds a huge map with many playable factions and with a good AI.

MTW2 will remain a great game so long as it remains challenging and rewarding for the player. The more experianced player may find some bugs here and there, but none of them should be gamebreakers for the casual player. Although I would love to see another patch, I think that CA has done a good job of providing support for their product. Whats really awsome is that CA allows people to mod the game as much as they do. If your a more experianced player and are looking for a greater challenge try some mods.

[DisruptorX]

Just like many other games these days mods keep it alive. RC and SS are completing the game by doing what CA should have done before the game was released.

SS makes the campaign level AI brutal. They just keep sending stack after stack after you, as it should be.

The battle level AI is slightly better, in that it'll do things such as seek out your general. Still pretty easy, but an improvement.

Only problem I've had with it is it makes the Khwarezmian Empire so powerful that it just straight outright crushes the mongol invasion. In my current game, I had one of my Cuman generals (now Khan) send a raiding party out to sack and destroy every building in most of their cities so that they'd be weakened. Mongols haven't struck yet, so we'll see how it works out.

[PBI]

Only problem I've had with it is it makes the Khwarezmian Empire so powerful that it just straight outright crushes the mongol invasion. In my current game, I had one of my Cuman generals (now Khan) send a raiding party out to sack and destroy every building in most of their cities so that they'd be weakened. Mongols haven't struck yet, so we'll see how it works out.

Yes, I find this too; especially in the late starting period, the Khwarezm not only consistently beat the Mongols, but utterly crush them. TBH though I find it's a relief, I much prefer the fighting the well-balanced stacks the normal factions generally field in SS to the uber-powerful Mongol stacks which I find can only be beaten by either using cheap exploits or tedious attrition.

I guess it's because of the drip-drip-drip approach the AI takes to offensives, sending a single stack at a single city and making very slow progress and only sending a second wave once the first has either failed or achieved its objective. The Mongols start with a massive advantage in numbers, but have no way of replacing their losses while the Khwarezmians have the income to continually raise troops. What is needed for the Mongols to capitalise on their initial advantage is to attack relentlessly with all their forces, which is exactly what the AI is bad at doing.

In all honesty, I think that M2TW in its current incarnation with the patches installed and with any of the major mods (though SS is my personal favourite) is not at all deserving of still having the bad reputation the game had at release. Virtually all of the major bugs are gone (shield bug, 2h animations, pike bug etc), the combat model is well balanced and enjoyable, and meanwhile it does have all the fancy features and graphics not present in earlier titles which all in all adds up to an excellent game. The only real remaining weakness I can think of is the battlefield AI which, although much improved, still shows flaws from time to time.

[Loki]

To All,

Are there any mods out now that currently incorporate the above cohesion fixes? (SS, PDER Vanilla, etc.)

If so, are they MTW2 or Kingdoms specific?

Also when someone mentioned that the fix was for Spear only, does that include other inits like Halbereds / pole arms etc?

[Point_Blank]

The mod in my .sig does, also see thread: http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showthread.php?t=197224

Needs SS6.0+SS6.1+SSTC+SSTC Patch 1.2+SSTC hotfix first.

SSTC: http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showthread.php?t=162498

Be advised its a beta, though the release isn't too far away, and that in Vista the incidence of CTD's seems to increase.

AOR Colonies has it also: http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showthread.php?t=175571

Cohesion is improved for all units.

[oz_wwjd]

Do all those patches require Kingdoms to run? I am also getting tired of the AI's stupidity,but I haven't found a mod that I like yet. SS seems like a challenging mod,if I can run it - kingdoms.

[Point_Blank]

Yes Kingdoms is required.

[PBI]

For the latest version (6.1) Kingdoms is required, but I believe earlier versions (4 and earlier) will work without Kingdoms.

[Tristrem]

So, It's been a while since I've given m2tw a try and i'm thinking of putting it back onto my computer. I was totally frustrated after playing vanilla m2tw, and vanilla kindoms, it seemed like there were just too many bugs in the game for me. So, I decided to to take a break and go back to playing EB. Well it's been almost a year now and I want to give give this game another shot.

From reading this thread it appears that many of the newer and more completely finished mods have fixed a majority of the bugs/problems that were plagueing the game for far to long. So recently i went and looked at all the mods that are out right now and i've narrowed it down to two of them that I am thinking about trying, but first i wanted to gauge the community and see who likes which mod and why?

The two mods i'm looking at are Stainless Steel, and Deus Lo Vult. From what I've read, i really can't see what is different between the two, they both look great. But, because of that i don't which one to choose.

So I'm throwing the question out there, what is the difference between these to mods and what you think about each of them?


Please, do not start bashing the mods however, because i want a decent sampling, and i know if that starts the thread will get closed!

Thanks

[Galain_Ironhide]

It really depends how you like to play your game.

Deus lo Vult is very involved and requires much micromanagement (don't expect to blitz, it is almost impossible!) and the time span is in 0.5years. Having tried it by playing a Spanish GC for about 200 turns (the game actually lasts for 900!), eventually the depth of the game ended up losing its appeal for me. This however may be right up your alley, I would still recommend this mod for anyone wanting to give it a try. Economic growth is made very challenging as it costs money to do anything - particuarly having your diplomats, spies and armies out of your lands. One of the cool features I liked was that every province not only had a settlement that you had to conquer, but also a stone fort that you had to capture as well (from Kingdoms expansion). One of my dislikes was, although there are about the same amount of factions as there are in SS, the faction names are all in their natural tongue which left me confused as to who some of them actually were part of the time. Oh, and there is an issue with Cavalry spreading all over the battlefield during battles, which is actually a feature that is implemented but not my cup of tea (it is fixable though).

I am playing Stainless Steel 6.1 at the moment (playing an English early era GC - about 140 turns in) and I am thoroughly enjoying it. There is no America's as they have expanded the map eastwards, plus there are plenty of factions to choose from, with what I would call a good unit roster for each ( though no Timurids ). You can play Early Era (1.5yrs per turn) or Late Era (1.0yrs per turn) Grand Campaigns, both of which span out to about 350 odd turns (I am slightly out with that figure but you get the drift of how long a game goes for). When you download SS6.1 you are given the option to install Byg's Grim Reality III and Real Recruitment both of which offers a huge challenge (micromanagement and restrictions that are meant to make the human player squeal), however I decided to go against using them just by what a few other people have said about them. But regardless I am loving it. The one thing I wish that SS had was all of those cool stone forts like DLV has to add to the challenge.

There are also plenty of Sub-mods available for Stainless Steel - but make sure you read about each one carefully, plus also they are in planning for releasing a patch 6.2 later on in the early part of next year (so I beleive). Take in account what I have mentioned, plus the features that the guys like PBI and TheLastPrivate have previously stated above about SS and there you have it.

In my opinion I would recommend Stainless Steel 6.1 over Deus lo Vult, but I would never knock Deus lo Vult, because I really admire the massive amount of work that the mod creator has put into this (he has a 40-50 page manual explaining how to play it!). Would I play DLV again one day? .... probably. But it may have to wait for me to try mods Third Age Total War and Broken Crescent 2.0 both of which should be released soon.

All the best.

[Shadebeard]

But I've been playing for a year and a half and I still suck at it? :D

[Skott]

I finally broke down and bought the Kingdoms expansion pack today just so I could try out the SS mod I been hearing so much about. DLing the files now as I type. I'm just going to skip the vanilla game and go straight into the SS mod. I been playing the LTC and LR mods for quite a while now and looking for something new and different until the next TW game hits the shelves next year.

As far as CA TW games go, yeah, they put out a buggy product. Luckily the modding community is organized and intelligent and put out some nice mods and fixes. CA really needs to clean up their QA & testing procedures. They are very lazy about bugs and squashing them. I dont buy their 'Its Sega's fault' mentality either. CA makes the game and the responsibility ultimately relies on them IMHO. Now that they got 3 guys working on the new AI instead of the old 1 man method hopefully we'll see better in their next release. Hopefully they added more testers too along with more time to do it.