Triarii, Town Watch, Auxilia; What do they share? ...

**Oleander Ardens** · 10-12-2004, 18:29

All of them get a no instead of spear as primary weapon attribute, giving them no malus against infantry, but no bonus against cavalry either...

Check your unit_description folder...

OA

**Dorkus** · 10-12-2004, 18:38

Originally Posted by Oleander Ardens

All of them get a no instead of spear as primary weapon attribute, giving them no malus against infantry, but no bonus against cavalry either...

Check your unit_description folder...

OA

mount_effects bonus. not sure if it's working though. they do no better than principes and hastati (in aux's case, worse) against cav.

**Red Harvest** · 10-12-2004, 19:17

I asked Jerome about this in a thread. He said that he would have someone take a look at it to see if there was a balancing issue that needed to be addressed. The spear/pike effect vs. cav. is supposed to be hard coded. You can see it against the longer pikes, but not the standard phalanx pikes. And spears show only a little evidence of it. Rank support seems insufficient for spear/pikes.

The mount_effects bonus might be in there in place of the hardcoded factor. However, it does not appear to be enough to offset the generally low attack stat for the spear units. The horses should also get negatives for going up against spears, IMO, and at least should lose their charge bonus for frontal attack.

**Medieval Assassin** · 10-12-2004, 20:20

It would of been cool, if you charged a un highly disciplined group of cav at pikes if some of the horses would stop and turn around away from the pikes, knowing that they are going to die... or at least be reluctent to charge full speed...

**hoom** · 10-12-2004, 20:25

I dunno, I think its actually just an over large tendency for horses to jump.
I lost nearly all of a carthaginian elephant unit to a hoplite unit very quickly in a frontal charge (diversion was unsuccessful, but the intended diversion then flanked the hoplites :) )

**Dorkus** · 10-12-2004, 20:45

guys, the op is talking about triar and aux, which don't use phalanx or rank in any event.

+4 (for both aux and triarii) is a huge bonus.

I'm not sure it's a question of compensating for formations breaking. I tend to think mount_effects simply aren't working.

Then again, cat camels tear apart cat cav. This could be because of inherent unit type bonuses/penalties, and/or the frigten effect (though morale didn't affect combat stats in MTW, afaik). It's also possible mount_effects is only working as a penalty (-4 for horses vs. camels) and not as a bonus.

Someone should jsut mod in a ridiculous bonus, like +15, and see if it makes a difference. I'd do it, but I don't have the game in fornt of me atm.

Originally Posted by Red Harvest

I asked Jerome about this in a thread. He said that he would have someone take a look at it to see if there was a balancing issue that needed to be addressed. The spear/pike effect vs. cav. is supposed to be hard coded. You can see it against the longer pikes, but not the standard phalanx pikes. And spears show only a little evidence of it. Rank support seems insufficient for spear/pikes.

The mount_effects bonus might be in there in place of the hardcoded factor. However, it does not appear to be enough to offset the generally low attack stat for the spear units. The horses should also get negatives for going up against spears, IMO, and at least should lose their charge bonus for frontal attack.

**Red Harvest** · 10-12-2004, 21:27

Spears should get rank bonuses, even auxilia and triarii. I'm not saying they do, I'm saying they should. A spear is a long range weapon compared to a sword and those behind you lend support to your efforts.

Sword infantry should get some support from ranks as well, but to a different degree. Morale and attack/defense should fall rapidly when in single line for instance.

**Colovion** · 10-12-2004, 21:31

In MTW they had... what 3 ranks of spears fighting? Strange how this isn't carried over - at least 2 rows would be fighting I'd think....

**Dorkus** · 10-12-2004, 21:34

tend to agree as a matter of realism. but more important to me that the unit does what it's supposed to do.

tri and aux unit descr both state they are anti-cav units.

As things stand, they do not seem to be. If these units were supposed to be anti cav by virtue of mount_effects bonuses rather than inherent spear bonuses or formation bonuses, that's fine with me. But if the bonuses are not functioning as advertised, then that's a problem.

it's also a problem from a game blaance perspective. tri and aux seem like relaly useless units.

Originally Posted by Red Harvest

Spears should get rank bonuses, even auxilia and triarii. I'm not saying they do, I'm saying they should. A spear is a long range weapon compared to a sword and those behind you lend support to your efforts.

Sword infantry should get some support from ranks as well, but to a different degree. Morale and attack/defense should fall rapidly when in single line for instance.

**DisruptorX** · 10-12-2004, 21:59

Originally Posted by Colovion

In MTW they had... what 3 ranks of spears fighting? Strange how this isn't carried over - at least 2 rows would be fighting I'd think....

Yes, that is really weird. I can understand how barbarian raiders might use the spear as just a melee weapon, but that is not how it is most effectively put to use. I find it aggravating that spears are completely useless compared to pikes. For some reason, spearment can't fight in ranks...even though they could in MTW.

**Aymar de Bois Mauri** · 10-12-2004, 22:58

Originally Posted by Colovion

In MTW they had... what 3 ranks of spears fighting? Strange how this isn't carried over - at least 2 rows would be fighting I'd think....

In MTW:

Spears - 2 ranks bonus
Pikes - 4 rank bonus

**econ21** · 10-13-2004, 01:31

Just to echo what Red Harvest said, I think the primary weapon attribute is not the key code that distinguishes spearmen. I think in the units txt file there is another entry (unit type?) that does that - might even be entered as "spearmen". My computer with RTW is dead so I can't check now, but I did check before that Town Watch do not count as spearmen but Triarii do.

Unfortunately, Triarii seem to be useless in the game as the Marian reforms make them obsolete before they can be built in numbers so I have no feel for how effective they are in practice against cav.

I also remember looking at the text file to confirm a report by someone at the .com that the Royal Pikemen had spears not pikes.

**DisruptorX** · 10-13-2004, 01:39

Originally Posted by Simon Appleton

Unfortunately, Triarii seem to be useless in the game as the Marian reforms make them obsolete before they can be built in numbers so I have no feel for how effective they are in practice against cav.

Yea, thats a result of the reforms happening way before they did in real life. I have played campaigns where I didn't even get the buildings I needed to make triarii before they became obsolete.