Criticisms of CA... again

[Tamur]

In this thread several weeks ago, I pointed out the wastefulness of crudely expressed feedback about the demo in particular, and software in general. In this post that point was sadly confirmed.

It seems that it's Org tradition to word criticisms in such a way that the feedback riles and disgusts developers, who in response turn away from the boards and find better worded opinions elsewhere. We have many, many, many examples of this sort of thing continuing unabated despite SP's post.

What's the point of giving feedback like this if, by doing so, you're driving away the very people who might have the ability to make changes?

No one is helping the game one bit by putting words like "stupid", "idiotic", "retarded", etc in their descriptions of what CA have accomplished.

Here's a golden chance to learn about self-expression... please take it.

[therother]

AOL!

SouthwaterPanda is right, RTW is a work of genius, with a few somewhat annoying flaws. But they can be put right, and none of them is, IMHO, a game-killing problem in the meantime.

[King Azzole]

Its a matter of being civil and mature. To start, message boards ironically are NOT good social mediums. They dont allow tone of voice or body language, something essential to human interaction for thousands of years. The best thing ANYONE can do no matter how mature you are is to REREAD your post before hitting that submit key. Try and think what someone else will feel when they do and try to be as civil and mature as possible. I love that CA reads these posts and I can get a direct link to the minds of the people who made this awesome game. Please dont let the kids and the inepts ruin it for us more social minded people.

[Indylavi]

I try not to be harsh in any criticisms I have, which have been very few. However, I do think CA might be a bit too sensitive about what other people say. As long as they are proud of their work and their paycheck clears they shouldn’t get too bothered by what others say. That's all that matters to me in my work

That’s how I feel myself. Remember, You can’t please everybody, and all of those people play RTW

[Trousermonkey]

I'm glad I finally have an opportunity to qualify my position on the issue (though it seems to mostly address southwaterpandas rant).

First, insulting the developers personally is pointless. I don't personally know these people and thankfully I've seen very few posts of this sort.

Second, I agree this is a game of genius. It's probably the best game I've ever played ever - even including the sometimes incredibly frustrating interface and various bugs. I've been really enjoying myself every hour I play (it's sad but I put in something like 38 hours last weekend - basically I didn't leave the pc except to sleep). Last night, however, I shut off the game in disgusted frustration and vented by posting some more problems in the list of bugs thread.

The problem isn't that I hate the devs for allowing these bugs to slip through. The problem is that I like this game and I want to like this game but I can already see that these little problems in the interface and AI are turning me off. I want this game to be unique and intelligent - not another C&C clone with a dumbed down sesame-street interface. We're so close as it is surely, I reflect, if they add those features from MTW that were removed it would make things so much better.

Finally, I want to make absolutely sure my concerns are noticed. As fans of a closed source application we're dependant on them to make any changes however small. Furthermore, because we're powerless to change the code the only thing we can do is try to bring these things to the devs attention and hope they deign to address them.

When the developers aren't visibly active in the forums and unresponsive to requests for change it makes the fans even more desperate to be heard. I would suggest we harp on niggling issues because we haven't received any assurance from the devs that they're looking into it (or even that they don't plan on making a change). This uncertainty, like a feedback loop, makes those that love the game become even more vocal and frantic to get the issues addressed before the powers that be decide they're done supporting the game and move onto the next project.

Just my two cents...

[JimBob]

For all the people who keep whining that the game wasn't tested enough. Remember, we're the ones who formed the Pitchfork Phlanx

[Spuddicus]

Anyone whose advice is "get a tougher skin" should try investing two years of their life in a creative endeavour and then ask fifty complete strangers to tell them it's shit...

Does the game have issues?
Yes.
Are some of these issues serious?
Perhaps. Depends on your perspective (and issue).

But consider this .... for every fifty complete strangers that incessantly whine, there's five thousand of us saying 'Well done. Thank you.'

[Indylavi]

That's the problem Spuddicus. Most of those that enjoy the game don't spend any time in a forum I feel for the devs I do but it's just sadly what people do. I spent 4 years in the military to have most of my friends die and be seriously injuried myself only to have people call me a war criminal because of the government. Just don't listen to them I say. Besides, RTW can't be that bad as it's still number 2 on the UK ELSPA Chart
http://www.gamesindustry.biz/charts.php?tag=pc_fp_top20

[Servius]

"When the developers aren't visibly active in the forums and unresponsive to requests for change it makes the fans even more desperate to be heard. I would suggest we harp on niggling issues because we haven't received any assurance from the devs that they're looking into it (or even that they don't plan on making a change). This uncertainty, like a feedback loop, makes those that love the game become even more vocal and frantic to get the issues addressed before the powers that be decide they're done supporting the game and move onto the next project."

Trousermonkey hit the nail on the head here, for me at least. The complaints on these boards aren't random. Luckily for all, they're quite specific and repetitive. Many of us have problems with the interface, with the removal of certain options, and with the slow speed of strategic movement and the too-fast speed of battles.

I can only speak for myself when I bear out Trouser's point by saying that the first week or so after release, whenever I spoke about these problems I was polite and not vindictive or critical of the devs. I expected to see a post by a CA rep saying something like (well, this is the way we want the game to go, but if you don't like it, here are the specific ways to change the code to speed this up, slow that down, etc. But no such comments have been forthcoming. I don't need them fixed right now, but I'd certainly appreciate some kind of acknowledgement that, to the community at least, these are important issues and that CA is dedicated to helping players make the game as enjoyable as possible. For me at least, it's because of a lack of response from CA on these issues that my tone has turned less polite.

The first time you say "Excuse me CA, can I talk to you about something?" Ignored, the second time you say "Hey, I need to talk to you about something." Then "HEY! Are you even listening to us!?" And then, at the end of that negative procession, "Jackass is deaf, dumb, or doesn't care."

The trick here is to respond quickly to consistently-raised concerns from may of Total War's more ardent fans. I'd chance to say most of the folks on this board are here because they were deicated fans of MTW, and came here to discuss tactics and seek mod advice. We are the pre-order folks, the ones who buy the game, sight unseen, becasue of a good reputation earned with MTW and STW. We're also the folks who spread the word, good or bad, to other gamers. Sure, not everyone on these boards fits into this description, but those who do are those to whom CA should be paying more attention to and responding more promptly to. There are legitimate, identical concerns being raised by many people. CA doesn't need to mess p their 'work of genious' to appease us, but they should provide us with the tools to mod it easily ourselves.

[CBR]

Well some of the harsh words has come from the MP community. A few of the remarks has been close to insulting. But these words come from a frustrated MP community that looks at a game that has gone back in time.

Some of the bugs and missing features makes RTW look like a combination of STW 1.0 and MTW 1.0. At this stage the MP community would be busy complaining about faction/unit balance now its fighting just to get features back that we have been used to for years.

CA has clearly outdone themselves with the SP campaign but for lots of multiplayers RTW has been a complete letdown. The developers that visits Org are not even to blame for it as most of the problems comes from higher level design decisions, so its sad they have to listen to all the bitching here. But its not easy not to say something when you are as frustrated as I know several MP'ers are.


CBR

[therother]

Would I be right in saying that there are two quite separate issues (or sets of issues) that you want CA to address? The first, to my mind, are the bugs. That is, the parts of the game that don't work as CA intended them to, e.g. the constant blinking of trade indicators after you build a shipyard or the occasional save game corruption or CTD. But based on the posts of people from CA, they are most certainly working on these right now for patch 1.2.

The second, it seems to me, basically boils down to playability. For instance, the issues the TW MP community are having, or the increased level of province management required from the player as compared to MTW (*). I read a lot from people who are unhappy with the concept of squalor for instance, and I have personally spend a fair amount of my time trying to explain to people that's it's not really that bad at all. Of course, being the kind of player I am, I welcomed most of the strategy changes with open arms. Many other TW veterans preferred the previous TW emphasis on moving armies and fighting battles. As always, YMMV.

Maybe they will tweak some of these, like putting in some of the old MTW battle commands, with a battle timer option, or maybe they will get rid of squalor, or design an 'arcade' strategy map mode where squalor and discontent are no longer issues. I would certainly welcome that last option, as it would mean that those of us who enjoy the new complexities could continue to do so, whilst those who seem to despise them will be sated by their removal in the games they play. But whatever they plan to do with these issues, you've got to give them more time than 3 weeks!

After all, this game was years in the planning; it's unrealistic to expect them to make wholesale changes on the fly. Plus, if you ask me, their energies are more profitably focussed right now on the bugs, which are a problem to all players. And it may just transpire that people are still getting used to the new system, and that discontent will drop after a while. They will then have wasted months reworking a game the vast majority are now happy with, at the expense of bug fixes, in the first instance, but also more crucially for CA’s survival, the development of the RTW expansion disk they will most likely make and developing the new xTW.

(*) Of this I can personally testify. A general province management guide for MTW would be fairly complete at a couple of pages, scattered with a few tables. For RTW, so far, I've written 1.5 pages dealing with mines, probably the simplest part of city management and the one the requires least actual planning.

[Thoros of Myr]

As someone that has been a consumer and supporter of select games that I feel represent the best of electronic entertainment for most of my life I have never seen a game that was abandoned leave people with a good taste in thier mouth. I have seen games better supported, better patched, developers better understood and represented in forums where both consumers and developers are vocal about thier concerns and issues. In such an environment brand loyalty is bred even in spite of problems.

It's not a pleasant sight to view the fallout where consumers have been abandoned...it's makes this place look like a petting zoo.

No one is helping the game one bit by putting words like "stupid", "idiotic", "retarded", etc in their descriptions of what CA have accomplished.

Agreed. Frustration and immaturity all too often get the better of people.

[TigerVX]

Better patched? It hasn't even been out for a month yet >>;;;.

[Thoros of Myr]

Better patched? It hasn't even been out for a month yet >>;;;.

I'm not talking about RTW specificly in that sentance, I'm talking about games I have seen in the past.

[Indylavi]

Servius, the problem with less polite approach is that you won't provoke any CA response earlier. In fact you’re likely to provoke a non-response. I was a forum member of a game where the devs did post in the forum quite often. After the millionth Attn Devs Stupid Bug fix now!!! posts, they simply left and never came back. Also, this game has not been out long at all. It’s a wonder we have a patch already. Patches take time and often are levels of authorization they have to go through. One game I played had a patch that took 3 months. 2 full months after the devs posted on their website that they finished it and sent it to the publisher for approval. The publisher sat on it for 2 months. So CA can’t just turn out a patch. I guess people want a blog everyday from the devs. Today worked on this bug for three hours, type messages. Those aren’t likely to happen any time soon from any game.

[Quietus]

Thx Tamur for posting this. I guess we are all guilty of frustration at one point or the other, however, nobody can deny this is a fabulous game! If the game is "garbage", I'll be the first person to throw the tomato and jump off the Total War ship. Thankfully, that's not the case

Thus, let's all make criticism that are to the point and antiseptic (meaning, less driven by emotion and sarcasm). The game isn't even a month old too, so thrashing it badly is premature especially with patch 1.2 in the horizon. The devs who visit do acknowledge issues that are to be patched, so I'm not really sure about the big ruckus?

[Encaitar]

When I saw the title for this thread I thought "okay, what are they having a go at the devs for this time". Pleasantly surprised to see that my expectation was wrong.

Personally I am very impressed by the amount of interaction CA have with the Org forums. For many games, the Devs seem to be quite stand-offish, and only post announcements, never engage in discussion or question-answering, but that's not the case here. It's also worth remembering that these aren't the Official forums. The Devs could very reasonably be expected to completely ignore this place, and only interact with the .com forums. Thankfully they visit both, which is something else worth keeping in mind.

I tend to check the org forums once or twice a day. And in the Colosseum, there's regularly 2 or 3 pages worth of threads with new posts. That's a hell of a lot to keep up with. Over at the .com, there's even more. Despite how long and tiresome this would get, CA do regularly read the forums. Just because they do not respond, doesn't mean they aren't listening and taking what's being said on board. Personally, I'd far prefer them to be spending time working on the game (e.g. fixing bugs and adding more features) than spending all day responding to every post sent their way on both .com and .org forums.

Of course, there does need to be some communication, but I think generally it's pretty good. Bear in mind that most of the threads that get started yelling "BUG" or "CA DO THIS" are things that have already been said dozens of times before in almost identical threads. In many cases, the Devs have actually already responded to an earlier incarnation of the thread.

They do have to be a bit careful with what they say too. Better to under-promise and over-deliver than vice versa. And some things they would be unable to discuss for various reasons.

Just generally, and I think this was the main point of Tamur's post, try to be polite and constructive with your criticism. There have been a couple of instances where people have gone and done some extensive testing on an issue, presented their results clearly and politely, and said "so in conclusion, this looks like a bug to me", to which the Devs have been happy to respond "hey, you're right, thanks, we'll go fix that".

They may not always respond, but they're listening. And if you doubt it, go read the credits again.

[Captain Fishpants]

In the spirit of this thread being reasonable and communicative I thought I'd reply to prove that we do come here and pay attention.

Rather than having ciggie breaks and standing like a dampened loon in the car park developing a nasty cough, I tend to have a flick through the forums (fora?) a few times each day. I'm not the only one, and we tend to share the details of the wittier/funnier/more trenchant/well argued posts too.

So where we are at the moment is this: we're collating material for a patch and looking at the issues that need to be addressed. This is based on user feedback gathered in the many - and largely enthusiastic - responses that we have here and elsewhere. I tend to view even the grumbles as significant, because if you have the energy to come and grumble, then you felt involved by the game. Reasoned comments get through the signal-to-noise filter; unreasoned - and unreasonable - rants tend to be treated as the work of monkey typists. See, it's not nice, is it?

It is a turn off to be told that we are a bunch of ne'er-do-wells (and that is politely paraphrasing the thrust of the remarks) who have somehow destroyed all your hopes, your future and your children with our cruelty in providing entertainment at reasonable cost. Truly, we are fiends incarnate (although Intrepid Sidekick doesn't look good in red - he looks like one of Santa's elves gone to the Dark Side). I look forward every day to stroking a white cat and plotting your collective downfall.

The truth is more prosaic (ooh, look it up) - we are trying to do something damn difficult, and do it well. Very well. The market, the reviewers and most people seem to think we've succeeded. But that doesn't mean we're ignoring people here or anywhere else.

Why do you think we bothered to give the forums - and the Org in particular - a "special thanks" in the credits, after all? So, if you're in need of a hug from the devs...



Feel better?

Good.

[The_Emperor]

Thanks for that Captain, and we do appreciate you guys dropping by and giving us feedback, after all many developers don't do this and its very reassuring to know that you guys are listening...

It is good to know you guys are working on a patch as well, and I do hope you manage to solve a few issues with it (and hopefully give us back the campaign battle replay ability).

Cheers.

[foop]

Well said. I know it's annoying when your unit of expensive troops runs into the river rather than across the bridge. I know all the other problems are annoying. And I know that you might not agree with squalour as a way of limiting city growth. But, being offensive about it isn't going to fix the problem.

A lot of game designers leave customers on their own, but CA have always been good at patching and fixing issues. The only company I can think of that is as good is Egosoft (makers of X Beyond The Frontier and X2), who also have a lively forum that is read by their devs.

Mind you, I still can't wait for a patch.

[Edit: Politeness improved]

[Aymar de Bois Mauri]

Thanks for the reply, Captain Fishpants.

I'm glad to know that you sense concern from the posters, even when some comments might seem harsh (a few of mine are included in this category). Although, as you've said, not all comments are worthy of taking into consideration, because some are just insulting and unjustified without being constructive, I believe firmly that most of the harsh ones have a genuine constructive reason for being written (the harsh ones I make belong in this category). That reason is, of course, the ever improvement of the game and of the TW series.

In that regard, I do not believe that you (CA devs), of everyone, would want a "yes-men" forum, only concerned in praising your work even if there were grevious problems in the game. As you've aknowledged, the main advantage of a dev/forum-member dialog is feedback - so important in debugging and perfecting gameplay.

Accordingly, there are reasons for posts that might seem harsh, although not unjustified. Some of these focus on the flow of the TW series, that most of the long-time posters at the ORG are concerned about. Although it is perfectly justified that CA takes the game in whatever direction it wants, it's sad when, IMHO, I see the game skipping concepts that were part of the reasons the TW series is regarded for, or incorporating mainstream concepts that do not fit with the series.

In conclusion, I still believe that very few can compare to CA in creative work and perfectionism (this last belief is pretty shaken by some recent design decisions). So, I hope that, you at CA - although I understand marketing and sales volume pressure - can still keep with the ideas, concepts and frame of mind that you had when you've initially created the series.

[Thoros of Myr]

Many thanks CF.

Anytime you feel put-off by a batch of remarks just remember you folks created some of my favorite games of all-time. (especially STW)

And WTH is a Thaumatomane??? a sweet protien of an african plant?

[Ranges]

The first time you say "Excuse me CA, can I talk to you about something?" Ignored, the second time you say "Hey, I need to talk to you about something." Then "HEY! Are you even listening to us!?" And then, at the end of that negative procession, "Jackass is deaf, dumb, or doesn't care."

Servius,

You bought the game, not their lives.
You have a right to the game, as played, and support from a (paid) customer support service to adress any issues you have with the game.

Any responses by developers (ie: people who make games, not tech support / customer support people) is an extra service. I think we should be damn gratefull for every post those CA devs make on this forum.
I know i am.

Sorry if this comes over as mouthing you off.. It's just that i feel bad as a player of these games, when i read such harsh criticism on the developers when they're doing more than just their jobs.

Captain Fishpants, it's you guys that deserve the hugs *grins*


I hope you all didnt burn out too badly on the development process.. ;)

[Oaty]

Unfortanately all the old posts from about July and on got deleted due to having a new board. But since I frequented these forums I noticed that a lot of the oddball features that people posted here were in the game. Do'nt know how many of them actually were already in progress and how many of them picked up the idea from this board but it sure seemed this board had a lot of input to the game.

Hey wait a minute maybe they stole all our ideas..... that sounds like war to me ........ TOTaL WAR

[Lord Ovaat]

I just posted in another thread--right before reading this one--that it is probably time we actually make a list and compared MTW and RTW gameplay, battle and campaign, item for item. While MP might have been a let-down, I think all would be happily surprised to see how many items of play were improved. And many of those, I'm sure, were in response to discussions in this and other forums. Yes, they do listen. I, for one, thank you guys, CF. This is your life's work. Just a game to us. OMG! Maybe that's worse? Maybe we are a little looney? We don't even get paid.

[BDC]

Well said. I know it's annoying when your unit of expensive troops runs into the river rather than across the bridge. I know all the other problems are annoying. And I know that you might not agree with squalour as a way of limiting city growth. But, being offensive about it isn't going to fix the problem.

A lot of game designers leave customers on their own, but CA have always been good at patching and fixing issues. The only company I can think of that is as good is Egosoft (makers of X Beyond The Frontier and X2), who also have a lively forum that is read by their devs.

Mind you, I still can't wait for a patch.

[Edit: Politeness improved]

I think of it more as a feature:

"Oh no, the Romans are so scary I shall try to swim away in my armour!"

[SpencerH]

This is the first TW game that I bought on day 1, so this is my first experience with a non-patched TW and the hubbub associated with the inevitable glitches, tweaks, and errors found in first versions. For the most part, I've found the criticisms posted here to be very mildly worded compared to those aimed at civ2 and 3 (when those games were just out of the gate).

In my experience, I've found that well worded criticisms are more likely to grab developers attentions and sometimes they're fixed. Does that mean that the rabid rants are less valid? Not to me. Sometimes a spade needs to be called a spade. For example, when a highly anticipated game is shipped where the fighters dont intercept bombers and there are bugs that end PBEM games after months of play, what should we call it? Given that the game was beta tested by community members, I call it stupid and irresponsible. Sugar-coating the comments in order to hopefully 'catch the eye of the developers' and avoid being called a whiner by fanboys is crap.

The SP game is pretty good. I think there are facets that should be changed and others that must be changed (to satisfy me) but they are subjective choices and IMO there are no real 'game-ending' errors. The MP game was another 'kettle of fish' however. That CA acted quickly to fix the MP problems doesnt change the fact that the MP'ers had every reason to be pissed off and to vent their opinions on these threads. I havent found the folks at CA who post here to be 'shrinking violets' and I see no need to treat them as such. They seem to be quite capable of providing their own sarcastic comments and rebuttal to posts they take issue with. (What else would one expect?) Not that I expect them to, but if they run away because they read threads that they dont like, what does that say about their commitment to the community and to addressing problems with the game?

[Gregoshi]

...it sure seemed this board had a lot of input to the game.

I'll give you two examples.

1) Back in the MTW/VI days (so long ago ), there was a thread or two about features we'd like to see in the TW games. I know I and a few others mentioned having population figure into the game - you can't train troops if you've bled yourself dry. Well, I was very surprised and pleased to see population figure in the game, and in a few more ways that I had envisioned. Most excellent!

2) Another idea was for some kind of history or recount of the campaigns you play. They didn't impliment such a feature the way it was described back then (Alpha Centauri-like recap), but it is there in RTW and in a very creative and cool way - the family tree and the "famous battles" marks on the campaign map. Now who doesn't like looking at maps with crossed swords on them?

We've seen similar things in MTW and VI too. They do listen even if they don't always reply.

[SpencerH]

I'll give you two examples.

We've seen similar things in MTW and VI too. They do listen even if they don't always reply.

I've seen exactly the same thing with the CIV threads/creators.

[Orda Khan]

The truth is more prosaic (ooh, look it up)

Insults come in many guises. Is this one acceptable then? If it is supposed to be a joke I for one am certainly not laughing

......Orda