Request for info: Culture and Unrest Public Order penalties

[therother]

After the success of my last request for info, I thought I'd ask for help before spending hours investigating myself.

All right, as far as I can tell from a few fragmented games, you either get an initial 50% Culture penalty when you take an enemy city, or you get none (if you are from the same culture).

Questions:

• Is the 50% figure right?
• What happens if the city you’ve just taken had yet been to be converted by its previous owner?
• Does replacing cultural buildings affect assimilation time?
• If so, which buildings? Just the temples or, for example, do Romans have to destroy execution squares as well?
• Anyone have any data on the decrease of the Culture penalty.
• Any other relevant factors?

The 2nd issue concerns Unrest. I've noticed you get it in cities that you've just conquered and in those that have just revolted. But:

• Is it always at the same level?
• How does it vary?
• Why do you get it in more settled cities?
• Can you get it when a city is discontented/disillusioned, but has not yet revolted?
• Any other relevant factors?

TIA.

[JeromeGrasdyke]

All right, as far as I can tell from a few fragmented games, you either get an initial 50% Culture penalty when you take an enemy city, or you get none (if you are from the same culture).

Questions:

• Is the 50% figure right?
• What happens if the city you’ve just taken had yet been to be converted by its previous owner?
• Does replacing cultural buildings affect assimilation time?
• If so, which buildings? Just the temples or, for example, do Romans have to destroy execution squares as well?
• Anyone have any data on the decrease of the Culture penalty.
• Any other relevant factors?

The 2nd issue concerns Unrest. I've noticed you get it in cities that you've just conquered and in those that have just revolted. But:

• Is it always at the same level?
• How does it vary?
• Why do you get it in more settled cities?
• Can you get it when a city is discontented/disillusioned, but has not yet revolted?
• Any other relevant factors?

TIA.

Culture penalty has a maximum of 50%. As a general rule of thumb, the amount is determined by the proportion of buildings in the settlement which have been built by factions of your culture - for example, if you're playing the Julii, and you take over a Greek city which is split 50% between buildings built by the Greeks and the Brutii, you should see something like a 25% culture penalty. Then when you replace the buildings built by the Greeks, the culture penalty disappears. Who last built a building-of-governance has a substantial influence as well.

Turmoil on the other hand has quite a few causes; it includes unrest after a city has changed hands (which dissipates over time), problems due to a Governor's unpleasant habits and a bunch of other things. It can vary quite a bit.

[therother]

Culture penalty has a maximum of 50%. As a general rule of thumb, the amount is determined by the proportion of buildings in the settlement which have been built by factions of your culture - for example, if you're playing the Julii, and you take over a Greek city which is split 50% between buildings built by the Greeks and the Brutii, you should see something like a 25% culture penalty. Then when you replace the buildings built by the Greeks, the culture penalty disappears. Who last built a building-of-governance has a substantial influence as well.

Turmoil on the other hand has quite a few causes; it includes unrest after a city has changed hands (which dissipates over time), problems due to a Governor's unpleasant habits and a bunch of other things. It can vary quite a bit.

Thanks a lot Jerome, very much appreciated.

[Jambo]

WOw, so culture penalty isn't related to the population, but more the culture of the buildings present?? I might consider knocking down a few more of these foreign buildings then!! Previously, I've just been using the other culture's buildings and bonuses to train and retrain my troops. No wonder I've been having some issues with public order...

Exterminating might not be such a good idea then, if you want to replace another culture's advanced buildings. One you knock them down to improve the culture penalty, the population won't be high enough to re-build your own...

Thanks for the information Jerome.

[The_Emperor]

The interesting thing is some things CANNOT be knocked down... Lets say you take Carthage for example (one rebellious hellhole that deserves Burning to the ground if your Roman)...

When I took it over it was alread well advanced and had a high up Carthaginian Governor's building, now I could not demolish it in order to get a Roman one built without upgrading it to the next level Roman one... But Carthage with a huge population of course means one thing: Revolts before you can upgrade!!

This culture penalty thing sucks sometimes...

[Oaty]

Excellent Jerome, much needed info. Now I know why that slow growing city of Nepte is so resentful.

Although I wonder if certain faction/barbarian types of buildings have a higher penalty associated with them such as the tavern as I completely overlooked that and noticed all cities with one of these still had a culture penalty after many many years about 50 game yeasr easily. But I noticed some cities were able to maintain those henge stones with no culture penalty after many years

[andrewt]

I have some cities as well where I left the other faction's temples and such and have no more culture penalty.

[Ulstan]

You can definitely take cities that start off at 40% or 30% culture penalty.

"Previously, I've just been using the other culture's buildings and bonuses to train and retrain my troops. No wonder I've been having some issues with public order.."

Yeah. I always knock down the temples/taverns type buildings in the towns I take over and build my own. I usually see a pretty significant decrease in the culture penalty. Things like docks and whatnot appear to be able to stay w/out causing as much trouble.

[Sociopsychoactive]

This is all AFAIK, feel free to disprove me.

Ok, culture penalty max is 50%, thats easy. Some of this SEEMS to dissipate over time.

Some other-culture buildings could be seen as desirable to leave intact (Tavern, odeon ect) BUT I have had a greek city in Julii hands for more than a hundred years, every greek building destroyed or replaced including the governance and farm building, apart from the odeon. The city STILL had a culture penalty of 5% over 50 years later. When in doubt, knock em down.

Culture penalties from governance buildings seems to be approx 20%. This is evidenced by the taking of a city with NO buildings other than the governers house (pre-2000 pop building). The culture penalty at first was 35%, after a few turns of building and settling, it dropped to 20% and has stayed that way for many years. When the governance building is upgraded this vanishes completely.

The destruction of none-roman buildings has no immediate effect on culture penalties, the penalty seems to reduce when the building is replaced by a roman one (or one of the correct culture). It may be that it takes a few turns to take effect however, and that just happens to correspond with the replacing of the building.

Hope this is of use, love the new forum.

[Oaty]

https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?t=38524

That link should help

[Quillan]

I've been going by what Oaty posted for a couple of weeks now, and from what I can tell, it is dead on the money. In a recent campaign I siezed Kydonia on Crete with my Gauls. The culture penalty was 50%, but the only structure in the town was the Governor's House. I spent one turn building a Shrine to Esus, and instantly the culture penalty was 20%. Governor's House-greek, shrine-gallic. A while later, the town hit the 2000 population mark, and the culture penalty was still at 20%, even though by that time I had built all other level 1 buildings I was capable of building. The instant the upgrade to the governor's house was built, the culture penalty was gone. Any other time I have used that formula to figure out the culture penalty, is has been absolutely correct also.

[zhuge]

Nice thread but I've noticed that most of the discussion was focussed on Culture penalties and not so much on Unrest. Jerome was kind enough to provide the rough guidelines on it but it makes me wonder what are the specific factors involved (if any).

Being a player, I would like to know if there's any way we can speed up the decline of Unrest over time. Generally it appears that most towns start with 30% Unrest once you take over them and this gradually declines by a constant 5% over each turn. Adjusting tax rate doesn't seem to make much difference and neither does adjusting garrison size. Governors with traits that increase Unrest have the expected effect when they conquer a new city (making the initial Unrest 35%) but that effect immediately goes away once the governor leaves the city.
I have also noticed a couple of towns which start with 45% and 60% Unrest. It rarely happens though. The town which started with 60% Unrest appeared to have a rebellion recently (was previously under Seleucid rule and occupied by a Seleucid governor). Not sure what happened after my diplomat moved away from the place but the next turn when my troops arrived they found an empty town instead, a higher Unrest than normal and the Seleucid governor was nowhere to be seen.

Some players have complained of a permanent 15% Unrest. Is this true and if it is, why is it so and can it be avoided.

[zhuge]

Ok, after reading a few threads and doing a bit of tinkering, I have come to the conclusion that the permanent 15% or 30% Unrest is a particular feature of that unique region to indicate its rebelliousness. I remember this was the case for Scotland in M:TW as well as a few other Spanish provinces so it's not a complete surprise.

Regions which end up with a permanent 15% Unrest, initially start with 45% Unrest when first conquered (that permanent 15% doesn't decay with time though the other 30% does as usual).

Regions which end up with a permanent 30% Unrest, initially start with 60% Unrest when first conquered (that permanent 30% doesn't decay with time though the other 30% does as usual).

I haven't conquered every region in my games, so I will need the help of forum members here to compile a list of towns which have this particular "rebellious" feature to indicate permanent Unrest. Kindly check the list to see if the data here matches the data from your games.

Towns which have permanent 15% Unrest:
Segestica
Salona
Domus Dulcis Domus
Vicus Gothi
Vicus Marcomanii
Mogontiacum
Batavodurum
Damme
Osca
Carthago Nova
Corduba
Tylis
Tanais
Croton

Towns which have permanent 30% Unrest:
Londinium
Tarsus

Towns which have no permanent Unrest:
Porrolissum, Vicus Venedae, Campus Getae, Campus Scythii, Byzantium, Campus Sarmatae, Condate Redonum, Narbo Martius, Aquincum, Lovosice, Iuvavum, Lepcis Magna, Patavium, Mediolanium, Segesta, Trier, Caralis, Massilia, Lugdunum, Alesia, Lemonum, Thessalonica, Bylazora, Campus Iazyges, Cyrene, Capua, Carthage, Thapsus, Lilybaeum, Messana, Tarentum, Apollonia, Larissa, Nicomedia, Ancyra, Sardis, Sinope, Mazaka, Kydonia, Rhodes, Corinth, Athens, Antioch

[therother]

Just a quick question: what faction were you playing?

[zhuge]

The data above is pooled from my 2 games. One as Julii and the other as Greeks. I did not count Arretium and Ariminum as "Towns which have no permanent Unrest" because I started with them in my Julii campaign and my Greeks haven't conquered them yet. The Greeks have taken Capua, Croton and Tarentum though and of these 3, I find Croton exhibits that irritating 15% permanent Unrest.
To tell the truth I haven't really played that much (I tend to play rather slowly) though I do keep extensive saves so I can refer to every turn for each game easily.

In both of my games, Salona and Tylis were saddled with permanent unrest and by comparing data with those in other threads (in this forum and also in the official forums), I also find that Segestica, Tarsus and several other Spanish towns had the same problem every time. The above towns also start with a higher initial Unrest consistently upon being conquered. This led me to make the conclusion above. Would appreciate a few more checks just to be sure but all in all I'm fairly confident this is the reason why permanent Unrest occurs.

[therother]

Thanks for the reply. May I say you've done excellent work: I've checked a few of them, and they all check out.

Odd thing though is that I can't seem to find any "rebellious" factor in the files. Even odder is that one of the new settlements (the Scandiavian one) in the RTR mod has 15% base unrest, so it doesn't seem to be hardcoded for the imperial campaign.

I'll check every single city and list the results here.

Results are in the order of settlements in descr_regions_and_settlement_name_lookup.txt, which seems to be being roughly north to south.

Settlements with 30% base unrest:
Themiskyra
Deva
Londinium
Tarsus
Jerusalem

Settlements with 15% base unrest:
Bordesholm
Domus_Dulcis_Domus
Vicus_Gothi
Batavodurum
Damme
Vicus_Marcomannii
Tanais
Mogontiacum
Segestica
Tylis
Asturica
Salona
Numantia
Osca
Scallabis
Carthago_Nova
Corduba
Palma
Croton
Dumatha
Bostra
Dimmidi
Petra
Nepte

The rest are at 0%.

Note: these penalties only seem to affect factions who are not the default owner listed in descr_regions.txt file. For instance, the Brutii don't suffer the penalty in Croton, but all the other factions will, including the other Romans.

[zhuge]

Thanks for providing a more complete list. I tried to look up this "rebellious" factor as well but also had no luck. Agree that factions who are the default owner do not suffer from the penalties. Tested Londinium with the Britons and had no unrest unlike the Julii who got nailed with 60%.
Also tried with exterminate/enslave/occupy options but this does not seem to have any impact. Also tried on Easy difficulty with the Gauls, taking Londinium, Segestica and Osca. Same results.

Anyway if those who did the RTR mod managed to fix a 15% permanent unrest region then they should know where the data is. I haven't applied the RTR mod nor am I really close with anyone in the RTR modding team, so I think it would be better for someone else to tackle that task.

[RedKnight]

Great work, you two. While I was offing shooting up Halflife 2, it occurred to me that it might be tied to cultures. You two have shown that this isn't really the case, with the exception of starting culture for a given town. Good deal! Sounds like there's a nail in this coffin.

[therother]

Sounds like there's a nail in this coffin.

I'd still like to know why these settlements are chosen. I've had a quick look through the new provinces that the Total Realism guys modded in, and about half of them had the 15%. Still no obvious reason why, although that is a higher percentage than in the vanilla game.

Pulling a few possible reasons out of my magical hat:

1. There is a easily moddable rebellious factor, but I just can't find it.
2. There is a (hidden) unrest hidden resource.
3. It's based on position mentioned in some game file.
4. It's purely random.
5. It's based on some indirect factors, e.g. something like the % of forest in the province.

[tommh]

A couple of possibilities:

It's based on the slave resource: these spawn rebels, robbers. Perhaps the number of these in a province is the determining factor?

The RGB value in map_regions.tga?

[therother]

Hi tommh. Thanks for the input.

It's based on the slave resource: these spawn rebels, robbers. Perhaps the number of these in a province is the determining factor?

I have always assumed that there was only one per province, usually right next to the city. Will investigate though.

The RGB value in map_regions.tga?

Had a quick look, but nothing immediately struck me.

[eadingas]

It seems it's a 'chance of rebellion' in descr_rebel_factions. The Iceni, Amazons, Judaeans, Cilicians and Silurians have 6, some others have 3, and most have 0. This would represent 30%, 15% and 0%.

[tommh]

I'VE CRACKED THE CODE!

the Mona Lisa is a dude in drag!
Oh wait thats a different code. Anyway the unrest figure is directly based on the revolt chance of the rebel faction type.

Amazons chance = 6
Judeans chance =6


Damn! beaten by 13 minutes

[therother]

A huge thank you to both eadingas & tommh! I knew the modders would know this one.

[therother]

I think this topic has been pretty much covered, so I'll temporarily close it for administrative reasons. If you need to add something in the meantime, PM me.

Thanks.

[therother]

Housekeeping complete. This thread has been split in two.

New threads:

Culture Public Order Penalties
Unrest Public Order Penalties

This thread is now closed. Please post research pertaining to the above topic in their respective threads.

Thanks.