Historical accuracy of Celtic units?

[Glewas]

I have just recently started to follow EB and everything I have seen so far has left me floored - everything is absolutley stunning!

I've been skimming through the various threads trying to glean as much info on this mod as possible and I like the strict historical path that this mod has taken. However, I do have a question regarding the Celtic units as presented in Sheep's "Lost Art..." thread.

What sources were used for the creation of the two hammer units, (Orddmohrnaght and Ordocorii), and for the two-handed swordsmen (Calwr Chlaiddyfwir)?

I've been infatuated with the ancient Celtic peoples for quite sometime, but have never come across mention of hammers/warhammers being used as tools of war. Nor have I heard of any use of two-handed swords.

Can anyone fill me in on the historical aspect of these units?

Thanks!

[khelvan]

On the hammer units: First, we may not have model space for the Ordocorii, so I'll stick with the Goidilic unit for now.

Two-handed hammers have been found in numerous burials; For instance, three two-handed hammers were found in a single burial north of Wexford in Ireland. The most prolific burial was was found in the burial of a Brehon judge/druid south of Sligo, where in were found numerous other objects.

The Ulster Cycles and the Book of the Dun Cow mention the hammer as the favored weapon of the Volunts, Carrants, and Bannats. Feinachas (the Gaelic laws) also make mention of hammers, and who is allowed to use them (only those deemed champions by their chieftains; only cheiftains and higher arras may purchase or order production of hammers). The cycle Toighal mentions the usage of two-handed hammers (modified work hammers, actually) as a common method of countering armor from foreign invaders (usually Britons, with chain or bronze plate).

A few stories about Cu Chullain, including some found in the Tain, have him training with a two-handed hammer as well as a sword. He had trained to fight with it under a female teacher; it was a fairly common Goidilic weapon. The poem 'Dun da nFerg' states plainly that the hammer (both one and two-handed) was the favored weapon of devoted followers of the Dagda (as he used a large hammer). Dun da nFerg is a poem about an attack on a fortress (the fort of Ferg), beset by a number of tribes from Britain, and compares them to Gallic invaders. It mentions what weapons both sides used (and talks briefly about the 'foreigners from the south sea'; Gaul). It mentions both two-handed hammers and two-handed swords, in addition to many other weapons. Every weapon and piece of armor mentioned, we've at least found chunks of, so clearly the weapons exist. According to it, while the hammers and swords were rare, they weren't THAT rare.

I'll get you references for the two-handed swords (in addition to the references in Dun da nFerg above) later.

[conon394]

khelvan

Is it not a bit of a problem to base a unit heavily on epic legends? On might ask why the Greeks don't get cart-sized stone throwing soldiers ala the Iliad. Is there any evidence of 2 handed hammers being used by Celts in any actual historic record or found in battle field excavations (in the Classical era)?

[khelvan]

Is it not a bit of a problem to base a unit heavily on epic legends?

It would be, if we were. The stories of Cu Chullain are the only ones that you might be able to paint with that broad brush, and the evidence is compelling without them. So feel free to strike them from the list, if you wish.

On might ask why the Greeks don't get cart-sized stone throwing soldiers ala the Iliad.

Because we don't use legendary epics such as the Iliad as evidence for weapons, armor, or units.

Dun da nFerg was not a legendary epic, it was a work of history. No magic, legendary champions, or extravagance of any sort is found in it. It is surprisingly low key. It is a poem about an historical event; the Celts used such stories as a way to make the history easier to memorize. The poem mentions Gaul in the past tense, but states that the Britons still posed a threat, so it was post Gallic conquest, but before the southern Britons were conquered by the Romans.

The oral traditions of the Celts have resulted in three categories of works, if you will: Legendary epics, works of a religious nature, and serious histories. Of the three, only the serious histories can give us specific information about the Celtic military, for instance; the others are useful only for general information and for clues about Celtic culture, and perhaps corroboration of things found elsewhere.

While we cannot call the recorded oral histories 100% accurate, this does not invalidate them. Many things have been located as a direct result of the translation of these histories, or previous discoveries corroborating information found in them; burials, remains of objects and places, battle sites, and so on. Like any ancient work, the oral histories are evaluated on an individual basis as to their validity and accuracy.

We are careful to note which of the three 'categories' the information we use comes from, and are careful about the individual sources we use, noting which are more and which are less accurate. The stories of Cu Chullain would be less so, Dun da nFerg more so.

Is there any evidence of 2 handed hammers being used by Celts in any actual historic record or found in battle field excavations (in the Classical era)?

Dun da nFerg IS an actual historical record. Others exist, as well.

However, I have answered this above, though perhaps I was not precise enough. Chunks of all the weapons and armor noted in Dun da nFerg have been found in battlefield excavations, notably one east of Gort, south of Loughrea, near the Burren. Edit: Including parts of two-handed hammers and two-handed swords.

[zakalwe]

You mention some of your evidence, but i'm interested what direct physical evidence you have for these units in the Iron Age (particularly the period of the game). Aside from the later texts (which describe a period demonstrably different to that of the era of the RTW game and is a whole different issue in itself), can you expand upon the archaeological evidence you give. You mention a couple of iron age finds and excavations. Do you have the site names for these rather than the rough geographical locations? It's rather hard to find them in the archaeological excavation database without a wee bit more detail. I know of plenty of evidence of hammers used in metal-working of the period, but didn't know that there were hammers were used militarily at the time.

Not disagreeing but just interested in the artefacts.

Incidentally the 'Dun na nFerg'. Is that part of another body of work? I don't think i know of it. Perhaps it has an alternative name?


Lastly since i virtually never post here but do scan over the forum every so often. Good luck with mod. It looks like it will be fascinating and of a very high standard.

[anonymous_joe]

Erm, the Táin and other Irish/Gaelic/Goidilic epics would generally come from the Iron Age. The surviving version of the Táin is the (rather biased) version taken down by monks in the early middle ages of a version of the legend from the 400s to 500s. The legend is older than that. (Trust me, I have an exam on this in Irish on Friday)
Regarding epics and historical value, the Iliad is an exaggerated version of the state of affairs at the time. I.e. Chariots, single combat, etc, in a highly stylised form.
The Táin is not unbelievable for the military detail in it, rather the scale of that, as well as the prowess of those involved is exaggerated.

[Big_John]

yeah, i knew you were going to hate on livy..

thanks for the analysis & corrections.