Tactics for fighting the Mongols

[Mount Suribachi]

Playing as Byz, its 1171 and soon for the first time I shall be facing the mongol hordes ...

I've never played a faction in the east when the mongols arrive, and I must say I'm looking forward to it

Right now my strategy is to build big Castles in my steppe provinces and lightly garrison them. Then let the mongols expand when they arrive, leaving my little garrisons safe in sound inside their fortresses - if the mongols want to throw men away assaulting castles without siege artillery, more fool them.
Then, once they've run over a few provinces and spread their armies, counterattack in force - stacks of upgraded veteran Kats, Porno Cav & steppe heavy cav led by my high command generals

Was wondering what strategies people use to defeat the horde.

[Productivity]

I like to upgrade your castle where they arrive (Khazar?) as far as possible, and put ~300 of your hardest units in there.

They tend to assault straight away, and you can really bleed them on it (ie. 3000 mongols dead). Then a counter attack tends to cause them to die.

[antisocialmunky]

I rather use them to clean sweep Eastern Europe and the Middle East rather than kill them off right away. In high, as the Byzantines, they're useful if you don't cut them off from expansion against the Eggies so they take out everything that has the potential to harass the high Byz. The Huns usually survive, but if you bribe the Khazar, you can build enough peasants to engineer a Mongol invasion big enough to take them and possibly the Germans out.

[ichi]

Hold the bridges in Kiev with a high valor gen and good defensive inf (get some polearm mercs and a few javelins).

By holding Kiev the Mongols sometimes go north or south and reduce other enemies, which is a good thing.

I also like to use lots of Byz Cav, Trebs, and Brigands behind walls of ByzInf.

ichi

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

My General theory here is this

A line of around 8 high valour arbelasters, 3 Allegion on the flanks and 2 Varagian guard for pinning.

The Arbelasters with cut down most of the mongol heavies, once they're all used up mass charge arbs and Varagians into the centre of the line and let the Allegion take the flanks. If you have a hign valour General then your enemy will usually break and run.

[IrishMike]

I always allow the mongols expand and retreat back and absorb them. Then when they are stretched and gaps open up in their expansion, counterattack on all fronts with you consolidated forces. After the counterattack they should try to dislodge you from the provinces. Defend the newly conquered provinces and then after you succesfully break them most of their armies should be devasated and total victory should be rather simple, provided that you can keep up replacements and the general war effort.

[m52nickerson]

Hold the bridges in Kiev with a high valor gen and good defensive inf (get some polearm mercs and a few javelins).

By holding Kiev the Mongols sometimes go north or south and reduce other enemies, which is a good thing.

I also like to use lots of Byz Cav, Trebs, and Brigands behind walls of ByzInf.

ichi

Kiev is your best bet. Lost of missile units and some spear or polearm troops to hold the bridge. In my polish game I held the first year and killed over 4000 Mongols, the next year they took Kiev, but after I kill close to 5000 of there troops. After that I counter attacked and soon wiped them out.

[Odin]

I always allow the mongols expand and retreat back and absorb them. Then when they are stretched and gaps open up in their expansion, counterattack on all fronts with you consolidated forces. After the counterattack they should try to dislodge you from the provinces. Defend the newly conquered provinces and then after you succesfully break them most of their armies should be devasated and total victory should be rather simple, provided that you can keep up replacements and the general war effort.

This is very sound strategy which I have used myself. Letting the mongols expand also help weaken potential rivals in the russian north. Not only that but sometimes the Mongols go south into Asia minor, so dependant on your situation there that might be beneficial.

Two notes that might help:

1. Use the above strat by letting them expand, but invade and occupy one province only with your best troops and generals. The mongols will counter attack but with less troop strength due to thier armies being spread out. This tactic will really help bring along some lower level generals for you and make the Mongols vunerable elsewhere. A western Europe power might take the initiative and hit them back creating two fronts for the mongols which only helps your cause....

2. Assination. I have seen the Kahn appear without any children of age. If you have some high end assains send them in, if your lucky he dies without an heir and you can bribe the remanats of his army allowing them to kill one another.

[dgfred]

It all depends on whether you want to fight them, for them to assault others,
or for them to be really strong when they emerge . Lots of options .

[HopAlongBunny]

One thing to remember is that the Mongols will appear with the armour/upgrades in the province(s) they spring up in. I usually invade Khazar and reduce it to rubble a turn or two before they arrive.

[antisocialmunky]

I think the Mongols are weak since my Byzantine Troops, even in High, can slaughter the Mongols mercilessly. I try to make them have the largest emergence possibly with gold shields and swords.

[Mujalumbo]

Piles and piles of Varangian Guards. Armour upgrades and led by a mid-star general, arrange them in a semi-circle towards the enemy before combat, then... CHARGE!!!

[dgfred]

I think the Mongols are weak since my Byzantine Troops, even in High, can slaughter the Mongols mercilessly. I try to make them have the largest emergence possibly with gold shields and swords.

This sounds like the most fun by far, I just can't seem to pull it off . Then again I don't usually play as E.European
or Muslim empires so that may be much easier..... give us some
tips .

[Matty]

Arrive in Khazar in 1229 with 3-4000 assorted men at arms and chivalric sergents, maybe some pavase arbalasters and some light cavalry. Park the pavs next to a wood, backed up by the chivs. Fill the wood with sergents and keep the cavalry out the back.

The mongol general charges up to your line, gets knocked out by the pavs and the whole lot routs. gradually use up the pavs and then move everyone into the woods. keep the cavalry way off and bring it in to rout the horse archers when they get a bit thick on the ground. Just keep suckering the mongol cavalry into the woods and tear them apart.

Four hours later, 8000 dead mongols and their back is broken

[antisocialmunky]

I've actually run out of arbalester ammo before when those large stacks rout.

You could always wait in the woods for the time limit. That's probably the only way you can win until they run out of HA Cavalry or good generals.

[Vladimir]

Spears, trees, and 9 stars. The only thing you need other than that is time and for most of that you can go make yourself a sandwich, take a nap, or whatever as the Mongols wear themselves out on your troops.

[antisocialmunky]

With the Byz, you have units fairly similiar to the Mongols. Your counterparts are all weaker than the Mongol equal, all except for the Byzantine Cavalry. You can out Mongol the Mongols if that's what your game is. 9 star Jedi, Kats, and Byzantine Cavalry pretty much make your army as good as theirs.

The mongol's major weakness is the lack of spear units. If you can pull off a decisive victory over their signature opening MHC charge, you can run them over with powerful and good moraled Byzantine Cavalry.

I've actually charged and killed about 300 archers with a single unit of high valour Byzantine Cavalry after fending off the MHC charge.

[danielrech]

With the Byz, you have units fairly similiar to the Mongols. Your counterparts are all weaker than the Mongol equal, all except for the Byzantine Cavalry.

Not when you re using one of those uber byzantine generals. A 8-9 stars general will improve the valor of your troops so much that actually the mongol counterparts will be weaker. VG will eat MHC for breakfast, they can even hold themselves against a charge.

The byzantines can make arbalesters, can't they?

Bring along that 8-9 stars general, the VGs, the arbalesters, pronoiai cavalry (valored up they WILL beat MHC), and the best fast cavalry available to smash those MHA bastards (I hate them ).

Dont bring Katatanks, only the general is ok. Kats tire too fast, rendering them useless as they re soooooooooo sloooooowwww.

Edit: forgot to say 2 things:

1 - high ground advantage is a must. Since you should be playing a defensive battle, it's not a problem really. You'll be surprised of what half a dozen of arbalesters can do against them.

2 - You can win a missile battle if you use heavily armoured troops in the front line to absorb the bows. I know some people may find this tactic lame, but it works! I usually have a 10:1 kill ratio (hard level). I'd use VGs as the byzantines. They re expensive yes, but they would serve 2 vital purposes: absorbing bow fire (most of them will just bounce off, since the mongols don't have armour piercing bows), and stopping MHC's charges.

[antisocialmunky]

With the Byz, you have units fairly similiar to the Mongols. Your counterparts are all weaker than the Mongol equal, all except for the Byzantine Cavalry. You can out Mongol the Mongols if that's what your game is. 9 star Jedi, Kats, and Byzantine Cavalry pretty much make your army as good as theirs.

I like Kats, they're good against missile fire and nothing's cooler than seeing two lines of heavy cavalry bash themselves against each other.

Slow yes, but they can flank better than Varangians and kill those GHA.

Honestly, the Byz don't have good dedicated spear units and Vars are just too valuable to me to throw away(I use them as a reserve since they are so slow and take 2 years to build) to throw away as charge stoppers. If you want to get a good speedbump, hire some Italian Light Infantry. That's why I use the super heavy Kats(Silver Armor and atleast 2 valour) to meet the Mongols head on.

[lilljonas]

(High, Hard difficulty with a decent, but not extraordinary mongol invasion)

Spending about two real life years of answering mongol invasions with "sensitive", balanced armies and careful strategic choises, I would have none of it. They showed up just after I had mopped up the last Egyptians and Turks in the area around Anatolia, so I had quite a few valoured-up kataphractoi, and a thirst for mongol blood. Time for an experiment.

The plan was simple: bring one stack of kataphractoi and pronoi allegion led by my best general (7 or 8 stars) with good armour upgrades. At the start of the battle, I'd charge them. No more, no less.

In the first battle, the charge devastated them. They had lots of mongol warriors that were easily butchered, and the the MHC didn't have much to say about it either, their bows failing to penetrate the armour of the cataphractoi, and my allegion simply ran them down and scewered them. The usual train of reinforcements arrived, and all of them fled immediately, ending the battle with some 80 - 700 casualties.

The second battle was a bit different, as the reinforcements actually didn't flee in terror as they arrived after the slaughter of their comrades, but it didn't help, since it really only meant that I was able to kill more mongols. Some 1000+ mongols didn't leave the field of battle.

The third battle was more or less a repetition of the second one.

The results: The stack, with a single reinforcement from Constantinople, was untouched, but with a ridiculous amount of valour. So yes, sometimes cataphracts > tactics. I really thought that I would survive one battle at most, but it turned out that my complete disregard for all the classic anti-mongol tools (river crossings, arbalests, good spear troops) paid off.

And yes, I stopped believing that kataphractoi is "not that good, and a bit too slow". Tell that to the Horde... ;)

[antisocialmunky]

If you're going to drown some mongols, hire up all the longbow mercs. The best river killing units in the game are longbows. Hordes and hordes of longbows.

[Mount Suribachi]

BTW, what are the mongol armies composed of? Is it just Golden Horde Heavy Cav, Golden Horde Horse Archers and Golden Horde Warriors?

[Budwise]

For Fun, I turn off Limited Ammo.

I am thinking of changing my mind on this because it makes going up against the Horde extremely easy.

[Procrustes]

BTW, what are the mongol armies composed of? Is it just Golden Horde Heavy Cav, Golden Horde Horse Archers and Golden Horde Warriors?

You'll get some naptha throwers, too - sometimes siege engines but most often not.

[cutepuppy]

and some alan mercenary and steppe cavalry (light and heavy).

[antisocialmunky]

You'll get some naptha throwers, too - sometimes siege engines but most often not.

Organ guns, the mongols love Organ guns.

[ah_dut]

For Fun, I turn off Limited Ammo.

I am thinking of changing my mind on this because it makes going up against the Horde extremely easy.

Damn, you stole my cheesy abuse tactic. I mean longbow mercs with infinite ammo? byebye horde

[Mount Suribachi]

Cheese is for putting on toast, not playing MTW