The U.S and the wrold

[Strike For The South]

Note: You might not agree or even like me after this one

Rant begin As Katrina rumbles onward and parts of the south are underwater some foreigners (none on this board) have seen this as time to tell the US we brought this on ourselves by energy consumption and thereby causing the greenhouse effect. Yes people are dying and losing loved ones and all some people can do is bitch. Not to mention the US the wrolds leading aid giver and always first one the secene to a crisis has not had one offer for internatinol support Im starting to see how it works tsunami hits asia they get help (all of which they mightily deserved) but when we are hit you hear one of two responses 1. They can take care of themselves we don't need to help although they've lent a hand when we needed it or 2. Die capitalist pigs choke on your oil CHOKE! Rant over

[Slyspy]

Point 1 is clearly a matter of scale. The natural disaster is less devastating and the country hit by it more able to deal with it (warnings, evacuations, planning, infrastructure, resources etc etc). So you get sympathy and nothing else.

As for the global warming thing well who can say? I certainly cannot and neither can most forumites (or experts in the field even) so I would ignore them.

[_Martyr_]

Dito, except to add... what could anyone really offer the US in this situation except sympathy and wellwishes?

[Kaiser of Arabia]

Maybe we should have done what Germany did to us now when the Tsunami hit asia, blame them for not being energy efficant. How many nations would embargo us?

[Papewaio]

Well maybe more illegal immigrant constructions workers to rebuild the city and make bigger levies?

Seriously the Tsunami killed over 150,000 people, the count is between 175 and 250 thousand people. That is 3 orders of magnitude larger.

Also there was a major amount of finger pointing at those nations lack of early warning systems.

[Red Harvest]

strike for the south,

I understand the frustration. Right now I don't know what other countries can even send us. Heck, I don't even know what is needed. The main problem right now is access and lack of a power grid as well as flooding that is still present.

Chavez did make some statement today about providing heating oil--talk about an unlikely source of aid. This might not make sense to some, but there is concern that heating oil (which was going to be tight) will be too tight this winter with the refinery outages. It is at least a reasonable gesture.

As for global warming/oil etc., yes, I think it is a bit inappropriate for others to kick us when we are down, but I could point to some very strident U.S. posters who make similar statements about others at inappropriate times. Frankly, we should expect a bit of this since Dubya decided to snub the international community with Kyoto, and we are the biggest energy user having more impact than any other nation. Global warming is real, whether or not we agree about the causes, or the role of CO2. Telling everyone else to go screw themselves was not in our own best interests--despite what the short term thinkers believe.

[Redleg]

strike for the south,

As for global warming/oil etc., yes, I think it is a bit inappropriate for others to kick us when we are down, but I could point to some very strident U.S. posters who make similar statements about others at inappropriate times. Frankly, we should expect a bit of this since Dubya decided to snub the international community with Kyoto, and we are the biggest energy user having more impact than any other nation. Global warming is real, whether or not we agree about the causes, or the role of CO2. Telling everyone else to go screw themselves was not in our own best interests--despite what the short term thinkers believe.

So lets blame George Bush for not signing a treaty that Congress would never ratify in the first place. Anyone remember another treaty that was signed by a President but never ratified.

Kyoto does not address one of the biggest threats - the cut and slash of Rain Forests - but lets just blame the United States because its easier.

Yea right.

[Soulforged]

Note: You might not agree or even like me after this one

Rant begin As Katrina rumbles onward and parts of the south are underwater some foreigners (none on this board) have seen this as time to tell the US we brought this on ourselves by energy consumption and thereby causing the greenhouse effect. Yes people are dying and losing loved ones and all some people can do is bitch. Not to mention the US the wrolds leading aid giver and always first one the secene to a crisis has not had one offer for internatinol support Im starting to see how it works tsunami hits asia they get help (all of which they mightily deserved) but when we are hit you hear one of two responses 1. They can take care of themselves we don't need to help although they've lent a hand when we needed it or 2. Die capitalist pigs choke on your oil CHOKE! Rant over

Well i know how you might be feeling because something of the same happened here arround 2002, and we didn't received much outsiders help. USA appears to be the center of the world, for good and for bad words.

The thing about global warming, after seeing Penn & Teller's, i really don't eat it, is not a scientific certainty so blaming any country on bringing it upon themselves is stupidity. Even so i do think that your country is way more capable that almost all the rest to help themselves, both economicaly and in personal capacity, so i don't see the need for help. But in some point you need it i'm sure that you'll have it.

[PanzerJaeger]

As for global warming/oil etc., yes, I think it is a bit inappropriate for others to kick us when we are down, but I could point to some very strident U.S. posters who make similar statements about others at inappropriate times. Frankly, we should expect a bit of this since Dubya decided to snub the international community with Kyoto, and we are the biggest energy user having more impact than any other nation. Global warming is real, whether or not we agree about the causes, or the role of CO2. Telling everyone else to go screw themselves was not in our own best interests--despite what the short term thinkers believe.

Yes, all our problems are George Bush's fault.

Ignoring the fact that it really isnt the place of the president to sign a treaty that wasnt ratified by congress, American jobs and the economy are more important than a treaty of which the results are questionable at best. Just because something feels good - or makes you feel warm and fuzzy inside - doesnt mean we should jump on board without taking broader perspectives into consideration.

Also, it has never been the American way to simply go along with the crowd. It is of great importance that we consider the effects of every treaty on ourselves and act on that consideration. Just because everyone else is doing it - whatever the current "it" happens to be - doesnt mean it is the right thing to do.

It wasnt too long ago that the whole world went to hell and America was one of the last bastions of freedom and normalcy.

[Crazed Rabbit]

Also there was a major amount of finger pointing at those nations lack of early warning systems.

And at the US becasue we were somehow responsible for that.

Crazed Rabbit

[Papewaio]

I agree the Kyoto treaty should not be signed until we understand things better.

Also the role of trees as carbon sinks is debatable...

[Productivity]

Not to mention the US the wrolds leading aid giver

Actually, adjusting for economy size, only Italy is worse.

Before people go off on a rant, if you include private aid which I've seen estimates at ~twice the level of public aid, that still puts you nowhere near the top, and that is assuming that only the US has private aid.

[Soulforged]

It wasnt too long ago that the whole world went to hell and America was one of the last bastions of freedom and normalcy.

Oh i see. . Sure go USA.

[Aenlic]

It seems to me that other countries should be wary of signing treaties with the U.S. anyway. After all, we didn't manage to abide by a single treaty we signed with native tribes until 1930. We broke every treaty we signed with them prior to that. Not a great track record. Add the ABM treaty to that and one might get the idea that the U.S. has more respect for used toilet paper than its treaty obligations.

[Gawain of Orkeny]

Before people go off on a rant, if you include private aid which I've seen estimates at ~twice the level of public aid, that still puts you nowhere near the top, and that is assuming that only the US has private aid.

I believe our private aid is considerably more than double our public aid. I think more like 10 times.

[Productivity]

I believe our private aid is considerably more than double our public aid. I think more like 10 times.

If we work on ~$19B of public aid, I'm struggling to work out where the other $160B of private aid is coming from given that only ~$34B of private aid can actually be detected.

http://www.techcentralstation.com/082102N.html

Indeed, when making an attempt to adjust for how useful the aid is, the US consistently ranks at the bottom of the pile.

http://www.cgdev.org/files/3646_file_WP_67_Revised.pdf

I'm not trying to bash the US here, just don't kid yourself about how great your aid really is.

[Gawain of Orkeny]

“Private international giving by Americans is over three and one-half times that of U.S. government foreign assistance,” Adelman told participants in the Internet chat. “When you take into account this U.S. private giving, our foreign assistance far exceeds other countries by any measure.”

She has estimated that U.S. private international giving to the developing world exceeds $62 billion.

Addressing questions concerning American giving abroad, Adelman called the standard measure of U.S. foreign assistance “outdated” and “flawed.” The standard measure of foreign aid, which ranks the United States last in terms of the percentage of its Gross National Income, grossly underestimates the total amount of U.S. foreign assistance, she said.

LINK

[Papewaio]

Adelman also includes Foreign workers sending money back home as foreign aid.

In fact for 2003 half of the private aid that she listed was from Foreign workers remittances,

[Productivity]

“Private international giving by Americans is over three and one-half times that of U.S. government foreign assistance,”

So will you revise the following down to 3.5 instead of 10?

I believe our private aid is considerably more than double our public aid. I think more like 10 times.

ddressing questions concerning American giving abroad, Adelman called the standard measure of U.S. foreign assistance “outdated” and “flawed.” The standard measure of foreign aid, which ranks the United States last in terms of the percentage of its Gross National Income, grossly underestimates the total amount of U.S. foreign assistance, she said.

Ok, so let's assume that total US aid is 4.5 times that of it's public aid (ie. 3.5public aid + 1public aid). That puts the US in the position of giving 0.72 of it's GDP as aid. Great, good number, good level etc. However, it is still not the highest level in teh world, as SFTS had previously asserted. There are still at least five countries giving more in public aid alone, than the US is giving throuh public aid combined with private aid.

The only time the US manages to come top is in absolute numbers, which quite frankly it should. It's the worlds largest economy by a long way. I'm not meaning to bash the US, it's just the original assertion by SFTS is incorrect in anything other than a useless measure.

[PanzerJaeger]

I'm not trying to bash the US here, just don't kid yourself about how great your aid really is.

Do we or do we not give the most aid of any country in the world? It seems like you are saying 1 billion swedish(or whomever) dollars are somehow better than 10 billion american dollars because of GDP comparisons. Money, grain, aid is aid. No amount of comparisons changes that basic fact.

There's a saying here in America that doesnt really make sense to me, but its sort of funny. "Dont look a gift horse in the mouth."

Considering how much "the world", which the US is so often excluded from, hates the US, they are lucky to get anything at all.

Of course the american guilt complex, as Aenlic demonstrated, will always force us to collectively feel guilty about living a good life - therefore compelling us to throw more money at people who hate us.

[Soulforged]

It wasnt too long ago that the whole world went to hell and America was one of the last bastions of freedom and normalcy.

Well there's many foundaments for the hatred. But this sentence of yours may explain some of them.

Sure just take a pill or two man your sickness will pass with the time.

[Roark]

PJ: The "gift horse" adage comes from the fact that, historically, one way of checking a horse's health was to examine its teeth.

So they're effectively saying "don't quibble over the details, just accept the gift".

As the richest country in the world, it is simply appropriate that a democratic country like the US would also be the no. 1 provider of foreign aid.

[PanzerJaeger]

Well there's many foundaments for the hatred.

I get it, you hate the US! Ive understood that since Gawain's "Greatest Military Organization in the World" thread in the monestary. Never do you let a post go by that even casually admits a positive about the US.

I simply dont care enough to respond to each and every piece of bait you throw in the lake, although I couldnt resist this one.

Truth is, people like you are a dime a dozen once you leave the states, and there are plenty here too. You see nothing good in America and thats your perogative. Whether thats based in secret jealousy, feelings of national inadequacy, or whatever little psycho-babblings that make you feel the way you do is beyond me.. but ive seen it all.

I learned a long time ago to simply ignore anti-americans. Such feelings are planted and nourished since birth, and only living here and knowing the people can change them in most people. My mother still hasnt changed. She espouses everything not american and misses the "old days" in Germany when we were about 1/10 as successful as we are now.

[Soulforged]

I'll appear forever if you say stupidities like that.

I see good in USA (even the fact that you call yourselves americans and your country America gets on my nervs) and i'm sure if i visited it i'll see a lot more. But that doesn't intitle you to call your country a bastion of freedom, but the most absurd is normalcy!!! My hatred and that of everyone that you profile as "haters" doesn't come from the nothing, it comes from the news we see, it comes from the images we see and the things we read. Maybe you can't see it from there but your country's policies have made much wrong at least in this areas (i would say the world, but). And your country still believes itself as the bringer of democracy, just the simple idea of throwing down foreing governments and replacing it by one elected by yours goes against freedom.
One of the reasons i hate gringos is that kind of statement. But anyway i'll not let this discussion continue because it has little to do with the thread. Just admit you made a mistake and that your views are the biased ones.

[PanzerJaeger]

By Roark

PJ: The "gift horse" adage comes from the fact that, historically, one way of checking a horse's health was to examine its teeth.

Thanks man. I understood what it was basically saying, but I never quite understood the background.

By Soulforged

Just admit you made a mistake and that your views are the biased ones.

I was refering to WW2. The only thing that kept democracy and the concept of personal liberty in the world was the Anglo-American alliance. The rest of the world was either Fascist, Communist, or occupied by one of the two. As for normalcy - well compare everyday life in wartime America to everyday life in wartime France or China.. yea, id say it was pretty normal.

[Soulforged]

I was refering to WW2. The only thing that kept democracy and the concept of personal liberty in the world was the Anglo-American alliance. The rest of the world was either Fascist, Communist, or occupied by one of the two. As for normalcy - well compare everyday life in wartime America to everyday life in wartime France or China.. yea, id say it was pretty normal.

Is just coincidence or you always forget about South America. We never had a facist government, nor communist, nor nothing. In fact we had a despotic government with the support of USA, because this government was the first to let full neoliberalist ideals enter here, thing that was beatiful to USA.
Well normalcy is pretty damn difficult to stablish, but i know what you're saying. Again forgetting about the South.

[Quid]

I was refering to WW2. The only thing that kept democracy and the concept of personal liberty in the world was the Anglo-American alliance. The rest of the world was either Fascist, Communist, or occupied by one of the two. As for normalcy - well compare everyday life in wartime America to everyday life in wartime France or China.. yea, id say it was pretty normal.

Switzerland was neither in a strict sense but I am just being pedantic.

I did hear on the radio last night that Switzerland did offer help for the flooding in the US. I suppose that is just a normal diplomatic gesture, really. At the moment we are struggling with the effects of the wide spread flooding in our own country. I must say, however, that the US government (embassy) was kind enough to provide $50'000 in aid for the catastrophe. Thank you!

Quid

[Bartix]

Yes, all our problems are George Bush's fault.

He perhaps is more symptom. After all many Americans vote for him to be re elected. Some think more than 50% of votes!

Is just coincidence or you always forget about South America. We never had a facist government, nor communist, nor nothing.

This is question of definition, maybe? I am impressed that South and Central America had many far left and far right regimes, some times quite nasty.


I am sorry for suffering and destruction caused by Katrina to people of US.
It may be eye opening experience to some, or at least next time similar storm happens, but it is not good rubbing US nose in it at this time. Not polite. Not considering humanity of those effected.

[Ronin]

Note: You might not agree or even like me after this one

Rant begin Not to mention the US the wrolds leading aid giver and always first one the secene to a crisis has not had one offer for internatinol support Im starting to see how it works tsunami hits asia they get help (all of which they mightily deserved) but when we are hit you hear one of two responses 1. They can take care of themselves we don't need to help although they've lent a hand when we needed it or 2. Die capitalist pigs choke on your oil CHOKE! Rant over

The US isn´t bangladesh or sumatra or some small country that gets overwelmed by a desaster like this.....

I do´t see how a country that can expend the manpower to go invading other countries for no good reason would have a problem dealing with this situation....you´ve got the manpower in your military forces...put them to use.

[bmolsson]

I think that the Katrina tornado is really sad and I am already talking to help agencies active to give my contribution. Discussing who's fault it is, just make my stomache sick. Its a natural disaster and we need to help the victims. Period.