MTW folk RE: RTW

[Roark]

OK, this is RTW-related, but I mainly wanted to get input from the MTW gamers who have played both... I hope your mods don't mind...

I find myself a little... seduced... by the (admittedly impressive) graphics and fancy units of the newer game. I've read a little about the AI problems involved with RTW, but I'm wondering... is it really as grim as it sounds? If I go "retrograde" and purchase RTW, will I be seriously disappointed? I've been playing at Expert level on MTW for a couple of months now, if that is any consideration... How about Rome Total Realism? Does it rectify many of the issues involved?

My intention is not to "bash" RTW's programmers or players, but could some of you outline what I could expect if I (hypothetically) purchased the game? Are the problems limited to the AI?

I'll probably never completely tire of MTW but, as they say, variety is the spice of life...

Thanks in advance guys.

[Strike For The South]

For me there realy isnt that much of a diffrence. When I play RTW the bugs are never as much as a problem as people make them out to be. Not to mention RTWs battles while being a bit fast a bit stupid (for the experniced MTW player) look and feel amazing. I have the RTR mod and its much better than vanilla. RTR also makes the battles a bit tougher to put it nearly on par with MTW. All in all the game IMO is worth it

[lilljonas]

My main problem is that the strategy map is even easier to exploit in R:TW. Yes, you can exploit the strategical weaknesses of the AI in S:TW and M:TW once you learn how, but the ease by which you can utterly crush enemies with almost no casualties in R:TW bothers me. I must say that BI was an improvement in this, since you actually risk losing troops and the smaller amount of cities means that it's a bit harder to divide and slay all enemies.

The inability to move armies long distances, the fact that anything can be crushed with cavalry (though, again, BI improved this) and that I'm simply not as interested in the era are the three major reasons why I prefer M:TW. Oh, and the "retrain your depleted army in one year and go conquer your next victim". In M:TW, casualties will be felt for more than one turn. I can act with much less strategic skills in R:TW without getting punished for it. That's a bad thing.

That said, with BI installed, R:TW is worth playing. I've gotten quite a few hours of entertainment from the campaigns, and it's a nice refreshment to see new troops. But is it a better game than M:TW? Most definately not.

[Mithrandir]

We have a specific RTW Forum.

Moved to RTW-dojo.

[Kaldhore]

I think theres only limited ways to compare the games as the engines are so totally different.

A.I. It may be just me but Ive found the AI lame in all TW games, I dont see RTW being THAT much worse - but the speed of the game makes the AI seem worse.

Speed - Im not sure if its realistic or unrealistic historically, but I get annoyed when I see historians talking about the Velites or Javelin infantry being out front of the main line. Its rediculously impossible to do that as by the time the enemy are in range of the javs - they dont get to throw one cos the enemy inf or usually the cav will charge and close the distance too fast.

Map terrain - Maps are worse in RTW. Each map is vacant and void or usuable hills - when there are hills, theyre usually on the attackers side and stupidly high..

All that being said I love RTW. The unit detail is fantastic ( BI unit detail is lame btw) especially those legionaires after the Marius Reforms. Even RTR spoiled the units. It may or may not be real but the Legions everyone knows and loves is when they wear the armour after the marius reforms - not the chainmail crap looking armour in BI, and the tan leggings...

Battles are Fantastic too :)

Its been 8 months since I played MTW - I miss it cos I was an online regular. But I wont be going back soon - I just cant get enough of RTW. Unlike the other guy I think B.I. Ruined RTW...

[Third spearman from the left]

Hi everyone,
this is something I've been thinking about, I've not played RTW or BI add on. I'm waiting to get a new computer before I can have a go, but I've played MTW so much and have found that the XL mod has made the game even more fun and that bit harder. I'm just wondering has the BI expansion not improved all the previous problems? Also does the BI changes take affect on all the start periods (eg. better AI in early periods as well later ones) I must admit lots of people don't seem to impressed from what I've read.

[Red Harvest]

Speed - Im not sure if its realistic or unrealistic historically, but I get annoyed when I see historians talking about the Velites or Javelin infantry being out front of the main line. Its rediculously impossible to do that as by the time the enemy are in range of the javs - they dont get to throw one cos the enemy inf or usually the cav will charge and close the distance too fast.

I'm not sure what you are trying to say. Velites and javelins DID fight out in front and from the flanks. The problem is that the way the game engine works, skirmishers cannot really run up release and skedaddle, they get caught. In real life, it didn't work that way. It is a game engine problem. In real life skirmishers would engage for a long time before the battle lines actually met, trying to drive each other's skirmishers away, and disrupt deployment of the battle line. It wouldn't just be 10 or 15 seconds and a single missile volley hurled.

The bigger problem with the skirmish mode is that the AI does not have any concept of how to actually skirmish and conduct ranged attacks. Exchanging missiles and trying to disrupt the enemy line is something it should be striving for. Instead it wants to melee with its skirmishers or charge the line with a few infantry or cav. It skips the traditional first phase of battle with javelin skirmishing. It is particularly obvious when it has a substantial advantage in missile units, but not in melee, when it still pushes for early melee--playing to its weakness rather than its strength. What it tends to do is charge its skirmishers forward hoping your ranged units will skedaddle. If you turn of skirmish for your men, it will CHARGE into them rather than stopping to trade vollies, which is assinine since its men are unsupported, while your infantry will rip them a new one.

If the AI was programmed to actually treat part of the battle as a skirmish phase it would be a lot different. Instead the AI acts brain dead when it comes to skirmishing. Therefore, because the AI only seems to understand CHARRRRGGGGE! you are reaching the conclusion that armies could not skirmish.

This problem was apparent in the original RTW demo, despite the scripting that had been done to get the AI to deploy properly for the Romans.

[Roark]

Thanks everyone for you input. I really appreciate it.

We have a specific RTW Forum.

Moved to RTW-dojo.

Did you even read my initial post?

We all appreciate the job you guys do, but crikey...

[KRALLODHRIB]

Horrible interface. Bad controls,

lars573, fyi in MTW you had more options on screen that allowed for faster gameplay. This was immensly important for mplay especially, but even made the single play more enjoyable. Hotkeys (I use shift 5/6 ALL the time!) are great but I loved those MTW formation buttons!

I still prefer the old interface (it worked better in battle.)

God do I miss the right click menu for skirmish!

[lars573]

lars573, fyi in MTW you had more options on screen that allowed for faster gameplay. This was immensly important for mplay especially, but even made the single play more enjoyable. Hotkeys (I use shift 5/6 ALL the time!) are great but I loved those MTW formation buttons!

Never once played multiplayer MTW or any TW or any RTS game period. So you can see how speed is not an issue. Ease of us is, and MTW interface was not that. There was so much sh*t on screen you could (and I did often) click the wrong button by mistake and have to stop fix what you did and then do what you intended to do.

God do I miss the right click menu for skirmish!

Argh I hated that!

[Slug For A Butt]

Me too.

[KRALLODHRIB]

I did often) click the wrong button by mistake and have to stop fix what you did and then do what you intended to do.

Hmm. . .I never found it confusing. Maybe it's the mouse you used or perhaps there was a proc lag? It was that element-the onscreen controls-of accessibility that I found expressly convenient.

Suum cuique pulchrum est

[Slug For A Butt]

I always found there was a load of useless shit on the screen in MTW... menus...submenus etc.
And now I have got used to it, I find the RTW control system so much more intuitive. Now whenever I play MTW (rarely), I find the control system archaich and unnatural. The AI is no better, you just get more annoyed by routing units coming back to piss you off. And once again, I'll mention the jedi generals. Dammit, the battles are unnattractive to look at because everyone is dressed in grey. I don't care how unrealistic it is, I like the colours assigned to different factions in RTW/BI because you can discriminate on the battlefield.

[lars573]

I always found there was a load of useless shit on the screen in MTW... menus...submenus etc.
And now I have got used to it, I find the RTW control system so much more intuitive. Now whenever I play MTW (rarely), I find the control system archaich and unnatural. The AI is no better, you just get more annoyed by routing units coming back to piss you off. And once again, I'll mention the jedi generals. Dammit, the battles are unnattractive to look at because everyone is dressed in grey. I don't care how unrealistic it is, I like the colours assigned to different factions in RTW/BI because you can discriminate on the battlefield.

Agreed. But I never liked nor disliked the little sprite-men of STW and MTW. They served their purpose well enough.