Looks like Turkey won't be joining the EU after all...

[BDC]

The French parliament has adopted a bill making it a crime to deny that Armenians suffered "genocide" at the hands of the Turks, infuriating Turkey.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/6043730.stm



Well that's that then. Really really really going to annoy the Turkish government.

[Banquo's Ghost]

This quote amused me no end:

Turkish Foreign Minister Abdullah Gul said on Wednesday: "If this bill is passed, Turkey will not lose anything but France will lose Turkey. [France] will turn into a country that jails people who express their views."

What, like Turkey?

Having had a decent laugh however, I think the French are off-base here. Legislating what people should think about history is a very slippery slope. I'm not even convinced we should have the laws that penalise Holocaust deniers.

In almost all cases, they are far better dealt with through reasoned argument and evidence, rather than legislation. In the latter case of the Holocaust deniers, ridicule also helps.

It is true to say however, that most modern democracies suffer from populations that are unwilling to listen to reasoned arguments, and therefore lend themselves to being told what to think on pain of imprisonment.

[Petrus]

Having had a decent laugh however, I think the French are off-base here. Legislating what people should think about history is a very slippery slope. I'm not even convinced we should have the laws that penalise Holocaust deniers.

I agree.

This is a purely demagogic law whose only effect will be to prevent dialog and strengthen turkey’s denial of the facts.

[Komutan]

The French politicians have done that just to make their Armenian voters happy. Meanwhile they have struck yet another blow to Turkish-Armenian relations. Unless everybody manages to keep this issue outside of politics it will continue to be a bloodfeud between Turks and Armenians.

[Watchman]

Methinks it's help even more if the Turks stopped playing total denial about it. Kinda like it wouldn't take all that much to stop half Asia being pissed at the Japanese over certain past incidents in general and their attitude about it in particular.

I mean, come on. Bad conscience about the colonial past is de rigeur in the European countries concerned, and the Germans have self-flagellation down to an art form. It's called being honest and suitably embarassed about nasty stuff one's forebears did.

[Seamus Fermanagh]

I agree.

This is a purely demagogic law whose only effect will be to prevent dialog and strengthen turkey’s denial of the facts.

I concur. In any society that practices a reasonable degree of freedom of speech, you should not have laws that prevent people from expressing their own repugnant, asinine stupidity -- as long as they do no physical harm to others. Nor should there be any law that prevents the listeners from commenting about the insipid nature of the views they've just heard expressed -- as long as the listeners do no physical harm to others.

[Kralizec]

Some Turkish parlementarians are now working on a law, making it illegal to deny the "Algerian genocide" by the French, punishable by jail. How mature

[Watchman]

For real ?

[rory_20_uk]

In Germany and Austria there are laws concerning denial of the Holocaust. I imagine that Israel has the same. So others a a lot further down the slippery slope already.

That some facts are viewed as historially accurate, and that to say others are should already fall foul of Slander / Liabel laws, and no further ones are required.

[Spino]

While I do appreciate the fact that the French government has taken pains to officially recognize the Armenian genocide I think it is both disgusting and alarming to see modern democracies feel perfectly justified in curbing free speech so as not to offend individuals or groups that happen to champion a historically and/or politically charged issue.

[Andres]

I hope this law will be contested in front of the European Court of Human Rights.

I wonder if it will pass the test of article 10 of the European Convention of Human Rights...

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

ARTICLE 10
Everyone has the right to freedom of expression. this right shall include freedom to hold opinions and to receive and impart information and ideas without interference by public authority and regardless of frontiers. This article shall not prevent States from requiring the licensing of broadcasting, television or cinema enterprises.
The exercise of these freedoms, since it carries with it duties and responsibilities, may be subject to such formalities, conditions, restrictions or penalties as are prescribed by law and are necessary in a democratic society, in the interests of national security, territorial integrity or public safety, for the prevention of disorder or crime, for the protection of health or morals, for the protection of the reputation or the rights of others, for preventing the disclosure of information received in confidence, or for maintaining the authority and impartiality of the judiciary.

[Keba]

Article 10 is vaguely worded ... this law can be crammed in under the protection of morals.

Oh, and ... that's weird, what the hell has France got to do with the Armenian holcaust that makes them put it up?

[King Henry V]

I must say that the BBC wasn't very quick off the mark there. I read this story last Mondy I think, in the free paper that I picked up when I was on the bus to school.

[Spino]

Article 10 is vaguely worded ... this law can be crammed in under the protection of morals.

Oh, and ... that's weird, what the hell has France got to do with the Armenian holcaust that makes them put it up?

It might be because there are elements within the French government that do not wish to see Turkey become a member of the EU. Legislation like this is a nice way of saying, "You're not welcome here!"

[lancelot]

Good, the French have finally done something right...so Turkey doesnt join the EU...boo hoo.

Turkey is hardly european anyways, especially considering like 98% of its landmass is not on the European plate, its about as European as Algeria or Tunisia or Mongolia. Maybe the Congo would like to join the EU...?

And we dont have to be burdened with yet another load of job seekers who are already driving down wages (and workers rights) so Fat Cats can avoid paying someone a decent wage when they can employ a boat-load of immigrants.

And even at the EU level, what exactly are the current members getting out of the deal?...anything?

No offence to any Turks, I know & like many Turkish people but lets be real, Turkey isnt European.

[Watchman]

The definition of "European" is vague -and in most instances reeking of tendentiousness anyway- beyond absurdity.

And all that "what's the EU good for" whining always kind of reminds me of the brilliant "what have the Romans ever done for us?" piece by Monty Python. If it wasn't good for something you'd imagine countries wouldn't be queueing up for membership, right...?

[Petrus]

It might be because there are elements within the French government that do not wish to see Turkey become a member of the EU. Legislation like this is a nice way of saying, "You're not welcome here!"

This has nothing to do with France or with the french government.

Many French citizens have Armenian ancestors.

In some places, a significant number of voters can be of Armenian origin.

Some members of parliament think they can buy those votes by making inept laws about the genocide of the Armenians.

This law was proposed by the minority – the opposition - in parliament.

The majority, fearing the loss of the supposed Armenian vote, did not take part to the vote of this law, so it passed.

What motivated this law has nothing to do with turkey, Armenia or the defence of the memory of the victims of this genocide, it is just a political manoeuvre to try to gain some votes.

Crappy local politics, nothing more.

[Proletariat]

And all that "what's the EU good for" whining always kind of reminds me of the brilliant "what have the Romans ever done for us?" piece by Monty Python. If it wasn't good for something you'd imagine countries wouldn't be queueing up for membership, right...?

Maybe it's not good for certain countries? Kinda obvious why countries like Turkey want in and countries like UK are revolted by it. You're maybe one of the last people on this board I'dve expected to drastically oversimplify such a complicated subject.

[Dooz]

Seems most people are against this legislation for the Armenian Genocide, yet don't have near as much of a problem with similar laws for Holocaust denial. Quite interesting, wonder why that is.

[Duke Malcolm]

And all that "what's the EU good for" whining always kind of reminds me of the brilliant "what have the Romans ever done for us?" piece by Monty Python. If it wasn't good for something you'd imagine countries wouldn't be queueing up for membership, right...?

Except that "What's the EU good for?" results in the sole answer of "nothing comes to mind".

Edit:

Maybe it's not good for certain countries? Kinda obvious why countries like Turkey want in and countries like England are revolted by it. You're maybe one of the last people on this board I'dve expected to drastically oversimplify such a complicated subject.

The United Kingdom...

[Spino]

Seems most people are against this legislation for the Armenian Genocide, yet don't have near as much of a problem with similar laws for Holocaust denial. Quite interesting, wonder why that is.

Because the lobby promoting one is larger and more powerful than the lobby promoting the other. Much like the marketplace the key to selling any idea in a democratic governing body is aggressive and selective advertising.

[Upxl]

I concur. In any society that practices a reasonable degree of freedom of speech, you should not have laws that prevent people from expressing their own repugnant, asinine stupidity -- as long as they do no physical harm to others. Nor should there be any law that prevents the listeners from commenting about the insipid nature of the views they've just heard expressed -- as long as the listeners do no physical harm to others.

Then who will protect the masses from themselves?

Besides the government continuously manipulates the media.
Small doses and behind locked doors but it happens surely.
Illegitimate control of freedom of speech or better yet illegitimate control of freedom of hearing/seeing


Anyhow, if turkey got their acted together I couldn't see any reason to not let them join the EU.
Provided that’s the will of the local population ofcours.

[Spino]

This has nothing to do with France or with the french government.

Many French citizens have Armenian ancestors.

In some places, a significant number of voters can be of Armenian origin.

Some members of parliament think they can buy those votes by making inept laws about the genocide of the Armenians.

This law was proposed by the minority – the opposition - in parliament.

The majority, fearing the loss of the supposed Armenian vote, did not take part to the vote of this law, so it passed.

What motivated this law has nothing to do with turkey, Armenia or the defence of the memory of the victims of this genocide, it is just a political manoeuvre to try to gain some votes.

Crappy local politics, nothing more.

I fail to see how this has nothing to do with France or the French government. Armenians may be an ethnic minority in France but the ethnic French majority in parliament, through its abstention in the voting process, enabled the law to pass. Whether the majority actively supported the legislation or not they clearly knew their inaction would allow it to pass, thus ruffling Turkey's feathers. It does not matter one bit whether the French government actively supported the law or not because when it comes to human psychology, silence is often mistaken for acceptance.

[King Henry V]

Then who will protect the masses from themselves?

Besides the government continuously manipulates the media.
Small doses and behind locked doors but it happens surely.
Illegitimate control of freedom of speech or better yet illegitimate control of freedom of hearing/seeing


Anyhow, if turkey got their acted together I couldn't see any reason to not let them join the EU.
Provided that’s the will of the local population ofcours.

Would that be the will of the European population or that of the Turkish one?

[Duke Malcolm]

So, let's be clear now...
Is it the France's direct snub to Turkey?
Is it the France pandering to the Armenian minority?
Is it the France's Armenian minority in a direct snub to Turkey?
Is it the France's indirect snub to Turkey by inaction after the France's Armenian minority in a direct snub to Turkey?

It is not liked by the Government of the Fifth Republic. Surely the President and/or Senate thereof shall simply reject it and sweep the matter under the carpet?

[Justiciar]

Would that be the will of the European population or that of the Turkish one?

The Turkish one, I'd imagine.

I'd happily let Turkey join the EU, but I get the impression that most of it's people don't really want to.

[Duke Malcolm]

Would that be the will of the European population or that of the Turkish one?

Don't you know the European population don't get a say in anything? Such as the wonders of modern democracy in the EU. Except in Switzerland, but that isn't in the EU, and has such sense it may never be.

[King Henry V]

Seems most people are against this legislation for the Armenian Genocide, yet don't have near as much of a problem with similar laws for Holocaust denial. Quite interesting, wonder why that is.

I think you'll find that those who argue against Holocaust denial legislation here are the same who do not support the Armenian genocide bill.

[Upxl]

Would that be the will of the European population or that of the Turkish one?

Turkish one.
It still is likely that the Turkish people consider themselves part of the more Islamic communities rather then the western democracy's.

Don't you know the European population don't get a say in anything?

Depends if you get out of bed and go to that little vote booth I suppose.

Such as the wonders of modern democracy in the EU. Except in Switzerland, but that isn't in the EU, and has such sense it may never be.

Yes that little paradise Switzerland.
Part from the fact they passed a law recently that lets them severe human rights in order to keep "unwanted" immigrants out.
That’s what the liberal democrats had in mind when they revolted from their Ancient Regimes 230 years ago.
Different times I guess, who needs human rights anyway now we got nukes?

[King Henry V]

Depends if you get out of bed and go to that little vote booth I suppose.

I suppose you are alluding to the right to elect politicians, for no one apart from a few government appointed officials have a say in decisions in the EU. You forget that politicians are more out of touch with the will of the people than practically any other profession or group of people.