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  1. #1
    Member Member Claudius the God's Avatar
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    Default Regarding Atheism, Agnosticism, Humanism, Rational Skepticism, etc...

    ... from the thread: What if atheists went door-to-door talking to mormons?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mithrandir
    I do hate to repeat myself...

    If you want to discuss Atheïsm, religion, whatever topic which is not about this movie, start a new thread. Ignore this post again and .
    so here's a new thread to discuss all things critical of organized religion and religious dogma...

    firstly, a few definitions to get the ball rolling... (wikipedia is very useful...)

    Atheism
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atheism

    Agnosticism
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agnosticism

    Antireligion
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antireligion

    Freethought
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freethought

    Empiricism
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Empiricism

    Rationalism
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rationalism

    Nontheism
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nontheism

    Humanism
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Humanism

    Secular Humanism
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Secular_humanism

    Common Sense
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Common_sense

    Skepticism
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skepticism

    Scientific Method
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientific_method

    Evolutionary Sciences
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evolution

    Logic
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Logic

    Nihilism
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nihilism

    Irreligion
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irreligion

    Antitheism
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antitheism

    Secularism
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Secularism

    Naturalism
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Natural...8philosophy%29

    Separation of Church and State
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Separat...urch_and_state

    Discrimination against Atheists
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Discrim...ainst_atheists
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persecution_of_atheists

    A list of prominent Atheists
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_atheists

    Demographics of Atheism
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_atheism

    Secular Ethics
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Secular_ethics

    How Atheists have been treated by different Religious groups:
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atheism_and_religion

    Utilitarianism
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Utilitarianism

    Russel's Teapot
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russel%27s_teapot

    Transcendental argument for the non-existence of God
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transce...istence_of_God

    Criticism of Religion
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Criticism_of_religion

    Religious Wars
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religious_wars

    Arguments against the existance of god
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Existen...istence_of_God

    criticism of Intelligent design
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intelli...from_ignorance

    criticism of creationism
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Creatio...of_creationism


    that should do for the moment...



    and people, lets try to avoid the typical bashing and insults that frequently occur on the subject of religion and criticisms of religion... please lets have a civilized discussion...
    Last edited by Claudius the God; 11-29-2006 at 04:48.

  2. #2
    Backordered Member CrossLOPER's Avatar
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    Default Re: Regarding Atheism, Agnosticism, Humanism, Rational Skepticism, etc...

    No, no, no. That's not how you start a controversial religious thread. Declare yourself a god and inform everyone of the futility to resist you. Post pictures of you floating and speaking to animals. Make elaborate sayings tied to pointless meanings. Juggle mice with your mind before turning them into elephants.

    ...or you can just say that you denounce the flying spaghetti monster. That'll get people to entertain you with their rage brought on by something someone wrote on some internet forum.

    ...or you can just invite everyone to a mass suicide.

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    "'elp! I'm bein' repressed!" Senior Member Aenlic's Avatar
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    Default Re: Regarding Atheism, Agnosticism, Humanism, Rational Skepticism, etc...

    You mock the Flying Spaghetti Monster? He'll thwap you with his Noodly Appendage and drown you in righteous Meatball Sauce.

    I am a rationalist, empiricist, antitheist, antireligionist, secular humanist, skeptical, freethinking athiest and you can't prove otherwise.
    "Dee dee dee!" - Annoymous (the "differently challenged" and much funnier twin of Anonymous)

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    Bopa Member Incongruous's Avatar
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    Default Re: Regarding Atheism, Agnosticism, Humanism, Rational Skepticism, etc...

    I try very hard to be a humanist, it's the greatest level of intellect as far as I can see, you throw out all desriminations in order to respect the whole of humanity. In order to do this one must overcome hate in all it's forms. This is probably the hardest thing to achieve but probably the most fulfilling.
    However when I attempt to understand the unhappiness of a people I end up hating the instigators of it, which basically just leads to the same bloody cycle over and over again.
    You can be a humanist and still be religious obviuosly I just find it hard how people sometimes put a non-human god before living human beings.

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    Enlightened Despot Member Vladimir's Avatar
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    Default Re: Regarding Atheism, Agnosticism, Humanism, Rational Skepticism, etc...

    Civilized?

    Silly Cladius. Enjoy the Backroom.


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    probably bored Member BDC's Avatar
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    Default Re: Regarding Atheism, Agnosticism, Humanism, Rational Skepticism, etc...

    o, no, no. That's not how you start a controversial religion. Declare yourself a god and inform everyone of the futility to resist you. Post pictures of you floating and speaking to animals. Make elaborate sayings tied to pointless meanings. Juggle mice with your mind before turning them into elephants.
    Fixed.

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    Backordered Member CrossLOPER's Avatar
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    Default Re: Regarding Atheism, Agnosticism, Humanism, Rational Skepticism, etc...

    Quote Originally Posted by BDC
    Fixed.
    No that's wrong.
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    Sovereign Oppressor Member TIE Fighter Shooter Champion, Turkey Shoot Champion, Juggler Champion Kralizec's Avatar
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    Default Re: Regarding Atheism, Agnosticism, Humanism, Rational Skepticism, etc...

    Quote Originally Posted by CrossLOPER
    No, no, no. That's not how you start a controversial religious thread. Declare yourself a god and inform everyone of the futility to resist you.
    He already did, look at his name.

    Claudius, you don't exist :P

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    Kanto Kanrei Member Marshal Murat's Avatar
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    Default Re: Regarding Atheism, Agnosticism, Humanism, Rational Skepticism, etc...

    Oh great, now people will know what they're talking about. Great way to ruin the backroom! Now we'll have intelligent, in-depth discussions of important issues.

    Ah well, had to happen some time.
    "Nietzsche is dead" - God

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    Re: Pursuit of happiness
    Have you just been dumped?

    I ask because it's usually something like that which causes outbursts like this, needless to say I dissagree completely.

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    American since 2012 Senior Member AntiochusIII's Avatar
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    Default Re: Regarding Atheism, Agnosticism, Humanism, Rational Skepticism, etc...

    Quote Originally Posted by Marshal Murat
    Oh great, now people will know what they're talking about. Great way to ruin the backroom! Now we'll have intelligent, in-depth discussions of important issues.
    Under all the tongue-in-teh-cheeks and sarcasms being flown around, I've yet to see one yet.

    Claudius, how about introducing a theme for us to munch over? What angle of Humanism are you interested in reading about in terms of discussion here?

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    War Monger Member dacdac's Avatar
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    Default Re: Regarding Atheism, Agnosticism, Humanism, Rational Skepticism, etc...

    By AntiochusIII:

    Under all the tongue-in-teh-cheeks and sarcasms being flown around, I've yet to see one yet.

    Claudius, how about introducing a theme for us to munch over? What angle of Humanism are you interested in reading about in terms of discussion here?
    Okay, I have something to argue about. How come there are proven facts and known truths that make every single religion wrong? You name a religion and give me a link to what it is about, I can find a fault or gap in the religion that can essentially prove it to be either impossible or having the wrong fundamentals. 'kay?
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    Member Member Claudius the God's Avatar
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    Default Re: Regarding Atheism, Agnosticism, Humanism, Rational Skepticism, etc...

    on the subject of my user-name - 'Claudius the God' is the name of one of my favourite books - about the Roman Emperor Claudius - the bumbling fool with the stutter and the limp who managed to survive the deaths of most of the rest of the Julio-Claudian dynasty and who was officially deified (like Julius Caesar, Augustus, and Vespasian)... the books Claudius the God and I, Claudius were written by Robert Graves and are well worth the read - failing that one could find the DVDs or videos of the BBC TV series of I, Claudius from years ago...




    on the subject of Atheism etc... I would describe myself as an Anti-Clerical Freethinking Secular Humanist.

    I think that it is intellectually embarassing to believe some of the nonsense that scripture like the Holy Bible promotes.


    "Properly read, the Bible is the most potent force for atheism ever conceived." – Isaac Asimov


    I can predict that this thread will be nice and peaceful and civilized until some religious fanatic comes along and starts insulting the beliefs (or lack of beliefs) of us non-religious individuals...

    I don'tr believe in Gods or devils or Heaven or Hell. I don't believe in fables such as noah's ark or the garden of Eden (though I did enjoy reading the Epic of Gilgamesh). I don't believe in the concept of Sin or divine forgiveness of Sins.
    Last edited by Claudius the God; 11-30-2006 at 02:20.

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    Feeding the Peanut Gallery Senior Member Redleg's Avatar
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    Default Re: Regarding Atheism, Agnosticism, Humanism, Rational Skepticism, etc...

    Quote Originally Posted by Claudius the God
    I can predict that this thread will be nice and peaceful and civilized until some religious fanatic comes along and starts insulting the beliefs (or lack of beliefs) of us non-religious individuals...
    Oh a challenge - well you will have to wait for Navaros to get your fanatic to insult your unholy belief..... Oh wait did I just insult the lack of belief?

    I don'tr believe in Gods or devils or Heaven or Hell. I don't believe in fables such as noah's ark or the garden of Eden (though I did enjoy reading the Epic of Gilgamesh). I don't believe in the concept of Sin or divine forgiveness of Sins.
    I knew a guy like that once. He maintain that belief up to the time that the Battalion commander stated in formation that the expected causalities for us breaching the Iraqi defense during Desert Storm was going to be over 50% of us. He was right along with the rest of us Christians at the next few services held by the Chaplin.

    Hell believe what you want - it frankly does not matter to me if you believe in a higher power or not.
    O well, seems like 'some' people decide to ruin a perfectly valid threat. Nice going guys... doc bean

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    Arena Senior Member Crazed Rabbit's Avatar
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    Default Re: Regarding Atheism, Agnosticism, Humanism, Rational Skepticism, etc...

    What about Eartheist? One of the people I know from high school has that listed as her religion on facebook.

    Crazed Rabbit
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    "'elp! I'm bein' repressed!" Senior Member Aenlic's Avatar
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    Default Re: Regarding Atheism, Agnosticism, Humanism, Rational Skepticism, etc...

    Earthiest? Yikes. Maybe Gaiaist? Or is that too many vowels?

    Hmm... ok, maybe Earthiest isn't so bad after all. Is that like a pagan thing? Wicca and all? I find Wiccans just about as silly as any other religion, except perhaps Satanists. Satanists really take the cake for inanity. They have a religion which while attempts to repudiate Judeo-Christian-Islamis beliefs by worshipping an essentially Judeo-Christian-Islamic concept - Satan. Too funny. It's rather like saying "I don't believe in orange trees, I believe in and worship oranges instead!" Dee dee dee.

    Humans have reached an evolutionary plateau. We can't evolve or progress further until we throw off the last vestiges of the mental chains of religion and other superstitions we thought up before we figured out how to reason.
    "Dee dee dee!" - Annoymous (the "differently challenged" and much funnier twin of Anonymous)

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    Feeding the Peanut Gallery Senior Member Redleg's Avatar
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    Default Re: Regarding Atheism, Agnosticism, Humanism, Rational Skepticism, etc...

    Quote Originally Posted by Aenlic
    Humans have reached an evolutionary plateau. We can't evolve or progress further until we throw off the last vestiges of the mental chains of religion and other superstitions we thought up before we figured out how to reason.
    Thats funny considering the progress that continues throughout history to include our times now. Science is not being held back by religion. Just check out the DAPRA website.

    http://www.darpa.mil/

    There is some things being researched that takes man well into the future of both progress and even evolution.
    O well, seems like 'some' people decide to ruin a perfectly valid threat. Nice going guys... doc bean

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    American since 2012 Senior Member AntiochusIII's Avatar
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    Default Re: Regarding Atheism, Agnosticism, Humanism, Rational Skepticism, etc...

    Hmm... I myself do not find discussions directly related to Humanism vs Religion in a direct antagonism to be all that interesting, which is where this potentially excellent thread seems to be heading. After all, the notion Humanism stands for a much larger and richer view on life than atheism alone, though obviously atheism can easily be a part of it.

    Unlike my brethren, I do not find religion itself to be that much of a nuisance. I simply take the view that the great and endless masses would find another opium to be addicted to anyway if religion is somehow "defeated." Moreover, spirituality is very much human in its emotional impact and, in my opinion, its source, that I should just respect it as part of a circle of human experiences...

    If that spirituality is exploited in the crowd mentality, however -- as is often the case -- then I do reserve a right to critique. That includes vicious and violently offensive assaults on the integrity of Everyone's Prophets and an incredibly condescending denouncement of all superstition...depending on my mood.
    Last edited by AntiochusIII; 11-30-2006 at 03:56.

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    War Monger Member dacdac's Avatar
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    Default Re: Regarding Atheism, Agnosticism, Humanism, Rational Skepticism, etc...

    Hmm... ok, maybe Earthiest isn't so bad after all. Is that like a pagan thing? Wicca and all? I find Wiccans just about as silly as any other religion, except perhaps Satanists.
    The only cool Wiccan I know is the leader singer for Godsmack. He has an amazing voice, for rock music anyway. I, personally, am whatever it is called where you believe in an higher power of some sort, but I don't need the word of men to tell me how to live my life. (i.e. priests, popes, caliphs, etc.)
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    War Monger Member dacdac's Avatar
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    Default Re: Regarding Atheism, Agnosticism, Humanism, Rational Skepticism, etc...

    EDIT: I think that that is Agnostic, right?
    I'd hate to be a giraffe with a sore throat.
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    Senior Member Senior Member Reenk Roink's Avatar
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    Default Re: Regarding Atheism, Agnosticism, Humanism, Rational Skepticism, etc...

    Quote Originally Posted by Aenlic
    We can't evolve or progress further until we throw off the last vestiges of the mental chains of religion and other superstitions we thought up before we figured out how to reason.
    I've always wondered at the proposition that one should base their beliefs on reason. After all, this is a belief in itself. A meta-belief perhaps, but a belief nonetheless. How would one go justifying such a belief? Well, we could use reason, but that would be circular and beg the question, wouldn't it? We could call reason a self-evident truth, reason is reasonable perhaps, if one likes tautologies. Or we could just assume reason without a reason. After all, an irrational acceptance of epistemically basic/foundational propositions is necessary for any rational colloquy and reflection. It's all built on irrational foundations.

    I like option three best. After all, I'm human. I'm irrational. Yes, I understand reason. I have studied basic logic, and think I have the capacity to understand more advanced forms of the stuff. It's a good tool this logic. But frankly, many of my decisions and beliefs are based on irrational impulse, instinct, and intuition and even though I am quite capable of examining them with reason and rational reflection, I will give way to the former because I feel it to be the better...

    Anyway, back to the topic, personally, I remain firmly convinced of the existence of God. It is not due to any argument or evidence, as I have found all three arguments for God's existence to be lacking in someway and I don't like reformed epistemology. It's due to some undeniable...thing...I can't put my finger on. I don't want to say mystical experience, but it is certainly an extremely powerful intuitive phenomena. I find myself being able to deny the existence of material objects much easier than deny God (which is quite amazing, because I am barely able to do the former to begin with).

    That being said, the biggest problem lies in which religion to choose...
    Last edited by Reenk Roink; 11-30-2006 at 04:53.

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    Member Member Claudius the God's Avatar
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    Default Re: Regarding Atheism, Agnosticism, Humanism, Rational Skepticism, etc...

    Quote Originally Posted by Redleg
    I knew a guy like that once. He maintain that belief up to the time that the Battalion commander stated in formation that the expected causalities for us breaching the Iraqi defense during Desert Storm was going to be over 50% of us. He was right along with the rest of us Christians at the next few services held by the Chaplin.

    "Religions are founded on the fear of the many and the cleverness of the few." ~ Stendhal


    "I expect death to be nothingness and, for removing me from all possible fears of death, I am thankful to atheism." ~ Isaac Asimov


    "If we look back at the begining we shall find that ignorance and fear created the gods; that fancy, enthusiasm, or deceit adorned or disfigured them; that weakness worships them; that credulity preserves them; and that custom, respect and tyranny support them, in order to make the blindness of man serve their own interest. If the ignorance of nature gave birth to Gods, the knowledge of nature is calculated to destroy them."
    * Baron d'Holbach, France, 18th century.


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    Member Member Claudius the God's Avatar
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    Default Re: Regarding Atheism, Agnosticism, Humanism, Rational Skepticism, etc...

    Quote Originally Posted by Reenk Roink
    I've always wondered at the proposition that one should base their beliefs on reason. After all, this is a belief in itself. A meta-belief perhaps, but a belief nonetheless. How would one go justifying such a belief?
    because not basing one's beliefs on Reason and Rationality allows the potential for the belief in nonsense. This can be irrational, unethical, dangerous, counterproductive, and even exploitative and tyrannical...

    the changes at the end of the middle ages with the renewal of the use of reason contributed the development of sciences, technology, and philosophy. the benefits of Reason are all around us today... at least in civilized areas...

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Age_of_Enlightenment
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Age_of_Reason


    (sorry about the double-post I don't know how to use multiple quotes)
    Last edited by Claudius the God; 11-30-2006 at 06:04.

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    Member Member Yun Dog's Avatar
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    Default Re: Regarding Atheism, Agnosticism, Humanism, Rational Skepticism, etc...

    I used to think 'let people believe what they want' - live and let live

    but now I see that some peoples beliefs needs to involve the unacceptance of people not of that faith

    from that perspective religion or organised religion has become a divider of peoples rather than a uniter

    this is even excluding those who use it as a excuse to commit act which their own belief prohibits (hypocryts)

    now I believe religion is something the world is better off without because its being used as a political tool to set people against each other - when essentially we are all brothers - we all share the same dreams and hopes

    I now think that religion is for those of us 'sheep' who cannot think for themselves what they believe - hence they need to be told what to believe by some organisation/person/political group - and how to believe it and practice it

    I dont need to be told what to believe - from my own experience I can figure out what I believe - and if I did happen to believe in a GOD or omnipotent being then no one is going to understand my relationship with that being or how best to worship/access it - than me

    Given how individual human beings are I dont really understand how one person can think their beliefs are the same as anothers let alone associate their beliefs with those of goat herders 3000 years ago

    I think of nations the same way as religions - they are increasingly irrelevent

    If I have friends or family being bombed/killed/imprisoned/persecuted by my 'nation' in another country x - then who am I going to support - my friend/family or my nation

    the sooner the human race can rid itself of these dividers the better off we and this planet will be
    Quote Originally Posted by pevergreen View Post
    its pevergeren.

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    Arena Senior Member Crazed Rabbit's Avatar
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    Default Re: Regarding Atheism, Agnosticism, Humanism, Rational Skepticism, etc...

    Humans have reached an evolutionary plateau. We can't evolve or progress further until we throw off the last vestiges of the mental chains of religion and other superstitions we thought up before we figured out how to reason.
    Oh please. I doubt religious beliefs are holding people back from evolving. Nor is religion a 'mental chain'. Religion does not stop science.

    To me, eartheism or gaiaism is weird - essentially, they seem to be atheists, who believe in the absense of God, but worship a big rock.

    because not basing one's beliefs on Reason and Rationality allows the potential for the belief in nonsense. This can be irrational, unethical, dangerous, counterproductive, and even exploitative and tyrannical...
    Ha! Deluded worship of 'reason' only removes the moral boundaries of religion and allows man to inflict real inhumanities upon man. It allows evil acts to be rationalized into acceptance, for what is despicable to be explained as the necessary, the just, the moral good, through the use of reason - a deluded worship of man as the ultimate abitrator.
    now I believe religion is something the world is better off without because its being used as a political tool to set people against each other - when essentially we are all brothers - we all share the same dreams and hopes
    So, because of tolerance, we can't tolerate Religions?
    those who use it as a excuse to commit act which their own belief prohibits (hypocryts)
    Huh.

    Oh, and did you think up atheism all for yourself? Wake up one day without ever hearing of it and decide God doesn't exist? Or are you just listening to the opinions of other atheists?

    Crazed Rabbit
    Last edited by Crazed Rabbit; 11-30-2006 at 06:59.
    Ja Mata, Tosa.

    The poorest man may in his cottage bid defiance to all the forces of the Crown. It may be frail; its roof may shake; the wind may blow through it; the storm may enter; the rain may enter; but the King of England cannot enter – all his force dares not cross the threshold of the ruined tenement! - William Pitt the Elder

  25. #25
    Member Member Claudius the God's Avatar
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    Default Re: Regarding Atheism, Agnosticism, Humanism, Rational Skepticism, etc...

    Quote Originally Posted by Crazed Rabbit
    Ha! Deluded worship of 'reason' only removes the moral boundaries of religion and allows man to inflict real inhumanities upon man. It allows evil acts to be rationalized into acceptance, for what is despicable to be explained as the necessary, the just, the moral good, through the use of reason - a deluded worship of man as the ultimate abitrator.
    Rubbish!
    firstly, Reason is not worshiped (it is highly valued as a way of thinking and solving problems, but never worshipped).

    Most Religions and scripture have numerous moral codes which are highly obsolete, and reduce morals and ethics so absurd things such as Sins...

    Religious scripture and Religious Fanatics have been inflicting damage upon Humanity for millenia...

    non-religious ethics don't allow evil acts to be rationalized or accepted, instead it allows people the right to think about important issues and make educated decisions without the limitations imposed by dogma and ancient traditions.

    instead of stoning adulterers to death and killing anyone who doesn't listen to priests. Reason has given Humanity some level of dignity.

    and Humanism is not in any way the 'worship' of mankind.

    this is what Humanism is:
    http://www.secularhumanism.org/index...ge=declaration

    Secular humanism is a vital force in the contemporary world. It is now under unwarranted and intemperate attack from various quarters. This declaration defends only that form of secular humanism which is explicitly committed to democracy. It is opposed to all varieties of belief that seek supernatural sanction for their values or espouse rule by dictatorship.

    Democratic secular humanism has been a powerful force in world culture. Its ideals can be traced to the philosophers, scientists, and poets of classical Greece and Rome, to ancient Chinese Confucian society, to the Carvaka movement of India, and to other distinguished intellectual and moral traditions. Secularism and humanism were eclipsed in Europe during the Dark Ages, when religious piety eroded humankind's confidence in its own powers to solve human problems. They reappeared in force during the Renaissance with the reassertion of secular and humanist values in literature and the arts, again in the sixteenth and seventeenth centuries with the development of modern science and a naturalistic view of the universe, and their influence can be found in the eighteenth century in the Age of Reason and the Enlightenment.

    Democratic secular humanism has creatively flowered in modern times with the growth of freedom and democracy. Countless millions of thoughtful persons have espoused secular humanist ideals, have lived significant lives, and have contributed to the building of a more humane and democratic world. The modern secular humanist outlook has led to the application of science and technology to the improvement of the human condition. This has had a positive effect on reducing poverty, suffering, and disease in various parts of the world, in extending longevity, on improving transportation and communication, and in making the good life possible for more and more people. It has led to the emancipation of hundreds of millions of people from the exercise of blind faith and fears of superstition and has contributed to their education and the enrichment of their lives.

    Secular humanism has provided an impetus for humans to solve their problems with intelligence and perseverance, to conquer geographic and social frontiers, and to extend the range of human exploration and adventure. Regrettably, we are today faced with a variety of antisecularist trends: the reappearance of dogmatic authoritarian religions; fundamentalist, literalist, and doctrinaire Christianity; a rapidly growing and uncompromising Moslem clericalism in the Middle East and Asia; the reassertion of orthodox authority by the Roman Catholic papal hierarchy; nationalistic religious Judaism; and the reversion to obscurantist religions in Asia.

    New cults of unreason as well as bizarre paranormal and occult beliefs, such as belief in astrology, reincarnation, and the mysterious power of alleged psychics, are growing in many Western societies. These disturbing developments follow in the wake of the emergence in the earlier part of the twentieth century of intolerant messianic and totalitarian quasi religious movements, such as fascism and communism. These religious activists not only are responsible for much of the terror and violence in the world today but stand in the way of solutions to the world's most serious problems.

    Paradoxically, some of the critics of secular humanism maintain that it is a dangerous philosophy. Some assert that it is "morally corrupting" because it is committed to individual freedom, others that it condones "injustice" because it defends democratic due process. We who support democratic secular humanism deny such charges, which are based upon misunderstanding and misinterpretation, and we seek to outline a set of principles that most of us share.

    Secular humanism is not a dogma or a creed. There are wide differences of opinion among secular humanists on many issues. Nevertheless, there is a loose consensus with respect to several propositions. We are apprehensive that modern civilization is threatened by forces antithetical to reason, democracy, and freedom. Many religious believers will no doubt share with us a belief in many secular humanist and democratic values, and we welcome their joining with us in the defense of these ideals.

    1.


    Free Inquiry

    The first principle of democratic secular humanism is its commitment to free inquiry. We oppose any tyranny over the mind of man, any efforts by ecclesiastical, political, ideological, or social institutions to shackle free thought. In the past, such tyrannies have been directed by churches and states attempting to enforce the edicts of religious bigots. In the long struggle in the history of ideas, established institutions, both public and private, have attempted to censor inquiry, to impose orthodoxy on beliefs and values, and to excommunicate heretics and extirpate unbelievers. Today, the struggle for free inquiry has assumed new forms. Sectarian ideologies have become the new theologies that use political parties and governments in their mission to crush dissident opinion. Free inquiry entails recognition of civil liberties as integral to its pursuit, that is, a free press, freedom of communication, the right to organize opposition parties and to join voluntary associations, and freedom to cultivate and publish the fruits of scientific, philosophical, artistic, literary, moral and religious freedom. Free inquiry requires that we tolerate diversity of opinion and that we respect the right of individuals to express their beliefs, however unpopular they may be, without social or legal prohibition or fear of sanctions. Though we may tolerate contrasting points of view, this does not mean that they are immune to critical scrutiny. The guiding premise of those who believe in free inquiry is that truth is more likely to be discovered if the opportunity exists for the free exchange of opposing opinions; the process of interchange is frequently as important as the result. This applies not only to science and to everyday life, but to politics, economics, morality, and religion.
    2. Separation Of Church And State

    Because of their commitment to freedom, secular humanists believe in the principle of the separation of church and state. The lessons of history are clear: wherever one religion or ideology is established and given a dominant position in the state, minority opinions are in jeopardy. A pluralistic, open democratic society allows all points of view to be heard. Any effort to impose an exclusive conception of Truth, Piety, Virtue, or Justice upon the whole of society is a violation of free inquiry. Clerical authorities should not be permitted to legislate their own parochial views - whether moral, philosophical, political, educational, or social - for the rest of society. Nor should tax revenues be exacted for the benefit or support of sectarian religious institutions. Individuals and voluntary associations should be free to accept or not to accept any belief and to support these convictions with whatever resources they may have, without being compelled by taxation to contribute to those religious faiths with which they do not agree. Similarly, church properties should share in the burden of public revenues and should not be exempt from taxation. Compulsory religious oaths and prayers in public institutions (political or educational) are also a violation of the separation principle. Today, nontheistic as well as theistic religions compete for attention. Regrettably, in communist countries, the power of the state is being used to impose an ideological doctrine on the society, without tolerating the expression of dissenting or heretical views. Here we see a modern secular version of the violation of the separation principle.
    3. The Ideal Of Freedom

    There are many forms of totalitarianism in the modern world - secular and nonsecular - all of which we vigorously oppose. As democratic secularists, we consistently defend the ideal of freedom, not only freedom of conscience and belief from those ecclesiastical, political, and economic interests that seek to repress them, but genuine political liberty, democratic decision making based upon majority rule, and respect for minority rights and the rule of law. We stand not only for freedom from religious control but for freedom from jingoistic government control as well. We are for the defense of basic human rights, including the right to protect life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. In our view, a free society should also encourage some measure of economic freedom, subject only to such restrictions as are necessary in the public interest. This means that individuals and groups should be able to compete in the marketplace, organize free trade unions, and carry on their occupations and careers without undue interference by centralized political control. The right to private property is a human right without which other rights are nugatory. Where it is necessary to limit any of these rights in a democracy, the limitation should be justified in terms of its consequences in strengthening the entire structure of human rights.
    4. Ethics Based On Critical Intelligence

    The moral views of secular humanism have been subjected to criticism by religious fundamentalist theists. The secular humanist recognizes the central role of morality in human life; indeed, ethics was developed as a branch of human knowledge long before religionists proclaimed their moral systems based upon divine authority. The field of ethics has had a distinguished list of thinkers contributing to its development: from Socrates, Democritus, Aristotle, Epicurus, and Epictetus, to Spinoza, Erasmus, Hume, Voltaire, Kant, Bentham, Mill, G. E. Moore, Bertrand Russell, John Dewey, and others. There is an influential philosophical tradition that maintains that ethics is an autonomous field of inquiry, that ethical judgments can be formulated independently of revealed religion, and that human beings can cultivate practical reason and wisdom and, by its application, achieve lives of virtue and excellence. Moreover, philosophers have emphasized the need to cultivate an appreciation for the requirements of social justice and for an individual's obligations and responsibilities toward others. Thus, secularists deny that morality needs to be deduced from religious belief or that those who do not espouse a religious doctrine are immoral. For secular humanists, ethical conduct is, or should be, judged by critical reason, and their goal is to develop autonomous and responsible individuals, capable of making their own choices in life based upon an understanding of human behavior. Morality that is not God-based need not be antisocial, subjective, or promiscuous, nor need it lead to the breakdown of moral standards. Although we believe in tolerating diverse lifestyles and social manners, we do not think they are immune to criticism. Nor do we believe that any one church should impose its views of moral virtue and sin, sexual conduct, marriage, divorce, birth control, or abortion, or legislate them for the rest of society. As secular humanists we believe in the central importance of the value of human happiness here and now. We are opposed to absolutist morality, yet we maintain that objective standards emerge, and ethical values and principles may be discovered, in the course of ethical deliberation. Secular humanist ethics maintains that it is possible for human beings to lead meaningful and wholesome lives for themselves and in service to their fellow human beings without the need of religious commandments or the benefit of clergy. There have been any number of distinguished secularists and humanists who have demonstrated moral principles in their personal lives and works: Protagoras, Lucretius, Epicurus, Spinoza, Hume, Thomas Paine, Diderot, Mark Twain, George Eliot, John Stuart Mill, Ernest Renan, Charles Darwin, Thomas Edison, Clarence Darrow, Robert Ingersoll, Gilbert Murray, Albert Schweitzer, Albert Einstein, Max Born, Margaret Sanger, and Bertrand Russell, among others.
    5. Moral Education

    We believe that moral development should be cultivated in children and young adults. We do not believe that any particular sect can claim important values as their exclusive property; hence it is the duty of public education to deal with these values. Accordingly, we support moral education in the schools that is designed to develop an appreciation for moral virtues, intelligence, and the building of character. We wish to encourage wherever possible the growth of moral awareness and the capacity for free choice and an understanding of the consequences thereof. We do not think it is moral to baptize infants, to confirm adolescents, or to impose a religious creed on young people before they are able to consent. Although children should learn about the history of religious moral practices, these young minds should not be indoctrinated in a faith before they are mature enough to evaluate the merits for themselves. It should be noted that secular humanism is not so much a specific morality as it is a method for the explanation and discovery of rational moral principles.
    6. Religious Skepticism

    As secular humanists, we are generally skeptical about supernatural claims. We recognize the importance of religious experience: that experience that redirects and gives meaning to the lives of human beings. We deny, however, that such experiences have anything to do with the supernatural. We are doubtful of traditional views of God and divinity. Symbolic and mythological interpretations of religion often serve as rationalizations for a sophisticated minority, leaving the bulk of mankind to flounder in theological confusion. We consider the universe to be a dynamic scene of natural forces that are most effectively understood by scientific inquiry. We are always open to the discovery of new possibilities and phenomena in nature. However. we find that traditional views of the existence of God either are meaningless, have not yet been demonstrated to be true, or are tyrannically exploitative. Secular humanists may be agnostics, atheists, rationalists, or skeptics, but they find insufficient evidence for the claim that some divine purpose exists for the universe. They reject the idea that God has intervened miraculously in history or revealed himself to a chosen few or that he can save or redeem sinners. They believe that men and women are free and are responsible for their own destinies and that they cannot look toward some transcendent Being for salvation. We reject the divinity of Jesus, the divine mission of Moses, Mohammed, and other latter day prophets and saints of the various sects and denominations. We do not accept as true the literal interpretation of the Old and New Testaments, the Koran, or other allegedly sacred religious documents, however important they may be as literature. Religions are pervasive sociological phenomena, and religious myths have long persisted in human history. In spite of the fact that human beings have found religions to be uplifting and a source of solace, we do not find their theological claims to be true. Religions have made negative as well as positive contributions toward the development of human civilization. Although they have helped to build hospitals and schools and, at their best, have encouraged the spirit of love and charity, many have also caused human suffering by being intolerant of those who did not accept their dogmas or creeds. Some religions have been fanatical and repressive, narrowing human hopes, limiting aspirations, and precipitating religious wars and violence. While religions have no doubt offered comfort to the bereaved and dying by holding forth the promise of an immortal life, they have also aroused morbid fear and dread. We have found no convincing evidence that there is a separable "soul" or that it exists before birth or survives death. We must therefore conclude that the ethical life can be lived without the illusions of immortality or reincarnation. Human beings can develop the self confidence necessary to ameliorate the human condition and to lead meaningful, productive lives.
    7. Reason

    We view with concern the current attack by nonsecularists on reason and science. We are committed to the use of the rational methods of inquiry, logic, and evidence in developing knowledge and testing claims to truth. Since human beings are prone to err, we are open to the modification of all principles, including those governing inquiry, believing that they may be in need of constant correction. Although not so naive as to believe that reason and science can easily solve all human problems, we nonetheless contend that they can make a major contribution to human knowledge and can be of benefit to humankind. We know of no better substitute for the cultivation of human intelligence.
    8. Science And Technology

    We believe the scientific method, though imperfect, is still the most reliable way of understanding the world. Hence, we look to the natural, biological, social, and behavioral sciences for knowledge of the universe and man's place within it. Modern astronomy and physics have opened up exciting new dimensions of the universe: they have enabled humankind to explore the universe by means of space travel. Biology and the social and behavioral sciences have expanded our understanding of human behavior. We are thus opposed in principle to any efforts to censor or limit scientific research without an overriding reason to do so. While we are aware of, and oppose, the abuses of misapplied technology and its possible harmful consequences for the natural ecology of the human environment, we urge resistance to unthinking efforts to limit technological or scientific advances. We appreciate the great benefits that science and technology (especially basic and applied research) can bring to humankind, but we also recognize the need to balance scientific and technological advances with cultural explorations in art, music, and literature.
    9. Evolution

    Today the theory of evolution is again under heavy attack by religious fundamentalists. Although the theory of evolution cannot be said to have reached its final formulation, or to be an infallible principle of science, it is nonetheless supported impressively by the findings of many sciences. There may be some significant differences among scientists concerning the mechanics of evolution; yet the evolution of the species is supported so strongly by the weight of evidence that it is difficult to reject it. Accordingly, we deplore the efforts by fundamentalists (especially in the United States) to invade the science classrooms, requiring that creationist theory be taught to students and requiring that it be included in biology textbooks. This is a serious threat both to academic freedom and to the integrity of the educational process. We believe that creationists surely should have the freedom to express their viewpoint in society. Moreover, we do not deny the value of examining theories of creation in educational courses on religion and the history of ideas; but it is a sham to mask an article of religious faith as a scientific truth and to inflict that doctrine on the scientific curriculum. If successful, creationists may seriously undermine the credibility of science itself.
    10. Education

    In our view, education should be the essential method of building humane, free, and democratic societies. The aims of education are many: the transmission of knowledge; training for occupations, careers, and democratic citizenship; and the encouragement of moral growth. Among its vital purposes should also be an attempt to develop the capacity for critical intelligence in both the individual and the community. Unfortunately, the schools are today being increasingly replaced by the mass media as the primary institutions of public information and education. Although the electronic media provide unparalleled opportunities for extending cultural enrichment and enjoyment, and powerful learning opportunities, there has been a serious misdirection of their purposes. In totalitarian societies, the media serve as the vehicle of propaganda and indoctrination. In democratic societies television, radio, films, and mass publishing too often cater to the lowest common denominator and have become banal wastelands. There is a pressing need to elevate standards of taste and appreciation. Of special concern to secularists is the fact that the media (particularly in the United States) are inordinately dominated by a pro religious bias. The views of preachers, faith healers, and religious hucksters go largely unchallenged, and the secular outlook is not given an opportunity for a fair hearing. We believe that television directors and producers have an obligation to redress the balance and revise their programming. Indeed, there is a broader task that all those who believe in democratic secular humanist values will recognize, namely, the need to embark upon a long term program of public education and enlightenment concerning the relevance of the secular outlook to the human condition.

    Conclusion

    Democratic secular humanism is too important for human civilization to abandon. Reasonable persons will surely recognize its profound contributions to human welfare. We are nevertheless surrounded by doomsday prophets of disaster, always wishing to turn the clock back - they are anti science, anti freedom, anti human. In contrast, the secular humanistic outlook is basically melioristic, looking forward with hope rather than backward with despair. We are committed to extending the ideals of reason, freedom, individual and collective opportunity, and democracy throughout the world community. The problems that humankind will face in the future, as in the past, will no doubt be complex and difficult. However, if it is to prevail, it can only do so by enlisting resourcefulness and courage. Secular humanism places trust in human intelligence rather than in divine guidance. Skeptical of theories of redemption, damnation, and reincarnation, secular humanists attempt to approach the human situation in realistic terms: human beings are responsible for their own destinies. We believe that it is possible to bring about a more humane world, one based upon the methods of reason and the principles of tolerance, compromise, and the negotiations of difference.

    We recognize the need for intellectual modesty and the willingness to revise beliefs in the light of criticism. Thus consensus is sometimes attainable. While emotions are important, we need not resort to the panaceas of salvation, to escape through illusion, or to some desperate leap toward passion and violence. We deplore the growth of intolerant sectarian creeds that foster hatred. In a world engulfed by obscurantism and irrationalism it is vital that the ideals of the secular city not be lost.
    now I don't see any problems with this sort of perspective at all... it is both sensible and ethical. Why do even moderate religious people have problems with this sort of thing?
    Last edited by Claudius the God; 11-30-2006 at 07:21.

  26. #26
    Feeding the Peanut Gallery Senior Member Redleg's Avatar
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    Default Re: Regarding Atheism, Agnosticism, Humanism, Rational Skepticism, etc...

    Quote Originally Posted by Claudius the God
    Rubbish!
    firstly, Reason is not worshiped (it is highly valued as a way of thinking and solving problems, but never worshipped).

    Most Religions and scripture have numerous moral codes which are highly obsolete, and reduce morals and ethics so absurd things such as Sins...

    Religious scripture and Religious Fanatics have been inflicting damage upon Humanity for millenia...

    non-religious ethics don't allow evil acts to be rationalized or accepted, instead it allows people the right to think about important issues and make educated decisions without the limitations imposed by dogma and ancient traditions.

    instead of stoning adulterers to death and killing anyone who doesn't listen to priests. Reason has given Humanity some level of dignity.

    and Humanism is not in any way the 'worship' of mankind.

    this is what Humanism is:
    http://www.secularhumanism.org/index...ge=declaration



    now I don't see any problems with this sort of perspective at all... it is both sensible and ethical. Why do even moderate religious people have problems with this sort of thing?
    Probably from the way it is presented - especially this little douzey of a comment.


    I think that it is intellectually embarassing to believe some of the nonsense that scripture like the Holy Bible promotes.

    If one was to take the metraphorical lessons in the bible literally then you might have a point. But when a moderate religious person who takes the bilble as a book that contains metraphorical lessons in which to enable a person to live a better life, such statements as yours is normally seen as an "oh Please, look at the rubbish being spouted once again because I believe in a higher power."

    I wonder why atheists think that I have to take the bible literally to be a believer in a higher power? That in itself is the fallacy in your initial comment.

    When you begin by attacking an individuals ability to think and their intelligence the course of the discussion goes down hill quickly.

    When you face your morality - and you maintain your humanist belief - it will make you a better individual then the many self-avowed atheists that I have seen take comfort in religion when they come face to face with the fact that man is not immortal. It leaves me more sceptal (SP) of atheists then of someone of limited belief or even my own moderate ways. Fanatics are the curse of not only religions - but even of those who claim not to believe.
    Last edited by Redleg; 11-30-2006 at 07:39.
    O well, seems like 'some' people decide to ruin a perfectly valid threat. Nice going guys... doc bean

  27. #27
    Member Member Yun Dog's Avatar
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    Default Re: Regarding Atheism, Agnosticism, Humanism, Rational Skepticism, etc...

    Quote Originally Posted by Crazed Rabbit
    Oh, and did you think up atheism all for yourself? Wake up one day without ever hearing of it and decide God doesn't exist? Or are you just listening to the opinions of other atheists?

    Crazed Rabbit
    maybe I watched all the people killing each other 'in the name of GOD' and decided GOD didnt exist

    or maybe I woke up one day and actually thought about what I believed - and stopped believing what other people/organisations told me too

    or maybe I just WOKE UP !

    but I didnt say I was an athiest... I just said I didnt believe in religion - theres a difference if you must classify people by their beliefs .. something the religions like to do

    On the subject ever notice how many references to sheep and goats there is in the bible.. this is for two reasons... so the sheep herders could relate to it, and its showing you how to believe in their religion ... by being a sheep and waiting for the good sheppard to show you the way to the promised land

    Finally people that say they belong to a certain religion but dont follow all the practices of that religion - are not of that religion ie. 'casual' catholics who dont follow exactly what the POPE preaches to the letter - are not catholics. If I ask a religious person what they believe then they only need refer to their holy book or leader - because they themselves should have no individual beliefs of their own but only those of their religion - word for word

    or they are not of that religion
    Quote Originally Posted by pevergreen View Post
    its pevergeren.

  28. #28
    Feeding the Peanut Gallery Senior Member Redleg's Avatar
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    Default Re: Regarding Atheism, Agnosticism, Humanism, Rational Skepticism, etc...

    Quote Originally Posted by Yunus Dogus
    maybe I watched all the people killing each other 'in the name of GOD' and decided GOD didnt exist

    or maybe I woke up one day and actually thought about what I believed - and stopped believing what other people/organisations told me too

    or maybe I just WOKE UP !

    but I didnt say I was an athiest... I just said I didnt believe in religion - theres a difference if you must classify people by their beliefs .. something the religions like to do

    On the subject ever notice how many references to sheep and goats there is in the bible.. this is for two reasons... so the sheep herders could relate to it, and its showing you how to believe in their religion ... by being a sheep and waiting for the good sheppard to show you the way to the promised land

    Finally people that say they belong to a certain religion but dont follow all the practices of that religion - are not of that religion ie. 'casual' catholics who dont follow exactly what the POPE preaches to the letter - are not catholics. If I ask a religious person what they believe then they only need refer to their holy book or leader - because they themselves should have no individual beliefs of their own but only those of their religion - word for word

    or they are not of that religion
    When one believes in religion only - they begin to go down the path that you described here.

    For instance I am a Christian but I don't believe in any of the doctrines of the organized churches that are out there. I have found that most "leaders" of the organized religion are hyocrites in thier own practice of relgion. I prefer the quiet reflection and mediation on the life lessons given in parable form in the New Testiment. Those parables contain lessons on how one can lead a better life, and it seems to me that most of the organized Christian Churches have lost that orginal meaning.

    But that is only my opinion on it.
    O well, seems like 'some' people decide to ruin a perfectly valid threat. Nice going guys... doc bean

  29. #29
    Member Member Claudius the God's Avatar
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    Default Re: Regarding Atheism, Agnosticism, Humanism, Rational Skepticism, etc...

    Quote Originally Posted by Redleg
    Probably from the way it is presented - especially this little douzey of a comment.


    I think that it is intellectually embarassing to believe some of the nonsense that scripture like the Holy Bible promotes.

    If one was to take the metraphorical lessons in the bible literally then you might have a point. But when a moderate religious person who takes the bilble as a book that contains metraphorical lessons in which to enable a person to live a better life, such statements as yours is normally seen as an "oh Please, look at the rubbish being spouted once again because I believe in a higher power."
    well lets have a look at some of the nonsense in the Holy Bible...

    The God of the Bible and the Bible itself promotes Ritual Human Sacrifice, Murder (including mass-murder), Rape, Slavery, and an incredible intollerance towards non-conformists - even with it's message of love and hope and acceptance...

    The Biblical God kills 371,186 people directly and orders another 1,862,265 people murdered.

    There are also over a hundred contradictions in the Bible. listing them all would make this post very very long, so I won't...

    ...but here is a website that helpfully highlights everything awful about the Holy Bible:
    http://www.evilbible.com/
    (NOTE Some may find this site offensive...)

  30. #30
    Arena Senior Member Crazed Rabbit's Avatar
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    Default Re: Regarding Atheism, Agnosticism, Humanism, Rational Skepticism, etc...

    non-religious ethics don't allow evil acts to be rationalized or accepted,
    Oh really? And what of eugenics, totaltarianistic communism, Stalin's purges, Hitler's purges, the 'Reign of Terror' and others?

    Reason is not worshiped (it is highly valued as a way of thinking and solving problems, but never worshipped).
    Why call it reason? Why not merely logic or a way of thinking through things? Instead, it becomes a concept a way of thinking with more connotations than one would think.

    What I see in this thread are some people holding up 'reason' as a process to be revered beyond its contributions. Worship may not have been the precisely correct word, but the meaning is similar.

    but I didnt say I was an athiest... I just said I didnt believe in religion - theres a difference if you must classify people by their beliefs .. something the religions like to do
    Put in 'intolerant agnostic' in place of atheist then.
    Finally people that say they belong to a certain religion but dont follow all the practices of that religion - are not of that religion
    Says who? Jesus said that we are all sinners - thus we all do not follow all of his teachings all the time - but Christians are still Christians.

    Most Religions and scripture have numerous moral codes which are highly obsolete, and reduce morals and ethics so absurd things such as Sins
    So 'Do Not Kill' is obsolete? Or are you refering to the old codes no longer held as guidance?

    If I ask a religious person what they believe then they only need refer to their holy book or leader - because they themselves should have no individual beliefs of their own but only those of their religion
    Funny that Cladius pointed to a website with a definition of humanism. An atheist (or agnostic) might simple call themselves an atheist (or agnostic); does that mean they have no individual beliefs, and thus no capacity for reason?

    and stopped believing what other people/organisations told me too
    And started believing what other agnostics and agnostic organizations told you?

    I still find it funny, Dogus, that your belief in free thought and tolerance has led you to intolerance of those who don't agree with you.

    CR
    Ja Mata, Tosa.

    The poorest man may in his cottage bid defiance to all the forces of the Crown. It may be frail; its roof may shake; the wind may blow through it; the storm may enter; the rain may enter; but the King of England cannot enter – all his force dares not cross the threshold of the ruined tenement! - William Pitt the Elder

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