Historical Roman Legion Through Time

[CountArach]

Just as preperation for a histoircally based Roman AAR on these forums, I was wondering exactly what a historical Roman Legion consisted of. So far this is what I have determined:

Just so you know 1 legion would be 10 units IMO, and 2 Legions would be 20 units, so that consular legions can be made.

Camillian
1 Legion
1 General (Deployed to right of the army. Representes the Equites Romani)
1 Leves
1 Hastati
1 Principes
1 Triarii
1 Rorarii
1 Acensii
1 Allied Cavalry (On Left hand side)
2 Allied Infantry

2 Legions

1 General
1 Tribunis Militum (Or 1 Equites Romani)
2 Hastati
2 Principes
2 Triarii
2 Rorarii
2 Acensii
1 Leves
1 Allied Cavalry
6 Allied Infantry

Polybian
1 Legion
1 General
1 Allied Cavalry
1 Velites
2 Hastati
2 Principes
1 Triarii (Seeing as there are half the number)
2 Allied Infantry

2 Legions
1 General
1 Tribunis Militum (Or 1 Equites Romani)
3 Hastati
3 Principes
3 Triarii
2 Velites
1 Allied Cavalry
6 Allied Infantry

Marian
1 Legion
1 General
4 Cohorts
2 Allied Cavalry
2 Other Allies
1 First Cohort

2 Legions
1 General
1 Tribunis Militum
2 First Cohorts
8 Cohorts
2 Allied Cavalry
6 Other Allies



So how close am I?

[antisocialmunky]

Didn't Roman legions also drag around some ballistae with them?

[Kugutsu]

I have been playing with a legion being:

1 general
1 equites romani
2 triarii
3 principes
3 hastati
3 balearic slingers or 3 cretan archers
2 scutari or 2 peltastai
and then whatever mercs I deem neccessary for the job, usually cavalry.

The exact composition depends on where the legion is based. I have one in Emporion, one in Lepki, one in Segestica and one in Demetrias. The western legions have balearic slingers and scutari and the eastern legions have cretan archers and peltastai.

[Cataphract_Of_The_City]

This is what i use for my eb 0.81 game:

Camillan:

1 General
2 Hastati
2 Principes
1 Triarii
1 Rorarii (+ 1 when i am siegeing a city for garrisoning)
1 Leves
1 Accensi
1 Equites
1 Aux Skir (Akontistai/Peltastai/Cretans/Gallic slingers or archers)
2 Aux Spearmen (or any spearmen that fit)
2 Aux Swordsmen (or any swordsmen that fit)

Polybian:

1 General
2 Velites
2 Hastati
2 Principes
1 Triarii
2 Aux Skirmishers
2 Aux Spearmen
2 Aux Swords
1 Aux Cavalry
(+1 rorarii when sieging for garrisoning)


For both configurations I use the classic manipular, triple line formation. Roman troops deploy in the center and allies in the flanks.

[CaesarAugustus]

Good luck on the AAR, CountArach, I'm looking forward to it!

[Dooz]

For th Camillianlegions, I just went with what EB gave us by default. There are I believe two of these legions at the start.

1 General
1 Equites
1 Hastati
1 Principes
1 Triarii
1 Rorarii
1 Accesii
1 Leves

This seems like a perfect legion for the early game. Keeps things interesting as it's only 8 units

Once we progress to the Polybian era, I change it up to something similar to Quintus' guide for RTR.

1 General
1 Allied cavalry or another general acting as Tribune
1 Hastati
1 Principes
1 Triarii
1 Velites
3 Allied infantry
1 Allied skirmisher

Works as another nice legion, limited to 10 units in the stack.

To make these perfect though, you would need to edit the Triarii unit to be half the size and cost. However, I'm not exactly sure how to do this. Could someone who does let us know please?

[Boyar Son]

Really though, no matter how much I wanted to play with 10 unit legions...

They never (almost) get the job done.

Dont be ashamed to double the number of your cavalry or princapes...

[MarcusAureliusAntoninus]

I usually play with a twenty unit per legion strategy.
4 Hastati
4 Pricepes
2 Triarii
plus auxilias

[Dooz]

I find the game gets to be pretty boring with anything over 10 units, let alone a full stack. This way you're on your toes. You still rarely lose, but it's a lot more possible at least. This is on Medium battle difficulty btw. Also, you get to have 2 legions for every 1 you would have otherwise, as far as upkeep goes. It's nice to have 4-6 active legions in the field and garrisons than to have 2-3 armies. Of course, you could always add a few more units and make it a full fledged Consular army, with about 15 units. But I haven't resorted to that yet.

[CountArach]

Wonderland, out of interest, do you disband a legion after 16 years of service? Also, do you only use Consular legions for Consuls or pro-Consuls?

These are the things I'm using in my upcoming AAR :P

[Dooz]

Nope, I don't disband because there's no clear way of determining when a legion started. This is because I don't retrain, instead sending in fresh troops to merge with the depleted ones so there are constantly new men being brought in. Although I guess I could set a certain date when the legion officially is born and stick with that...... I'll think about that further.

And as far as Consular legions, I don't use them in EB because the trait system doesn't allow for Consuls too often. And when you do get them the Consulship is very short lived. I know it goes by historical amounts of years and all that, just doesn't make it very practical to have a Consular army. I did use them with RTR and the system that was implemented whereby there was a progression in the military career represented by ancillaries. I don't think it was native to RTR though, it was something added by an awesome modder. I really liked that system, miss it in EB.

Anyhoo, I'm looking forward to your AAR! I love RP things like that, I hope you have some other similar ideas up your sleeve.

[Boyar Son]

A new legion should be created for every 3 provinces you controll. I tried that and "I gots da cash and da army" ....sry....

That should be implemented.

also dont get uptight with rules, or else you'll get frustrated keeping up with everything.

[CountArach]

Nah, I love complexity. It just gives me a more 'there' feel.

[Dooz]

Heh, me too. Differn't strokes, differn't folks!

[king hannibal]

should allies be in muiltipals and if they are is it for all periods of EB

[Kushan]

I follow CountArach format but alter auxiliaries/allies based on the region the legion is based and/or needs of the army.

Kushan

[Boyar Son]

WAIT! It'd be so much better for Marian legions to have 9 cohorts, 1 first cohort, and two generals (general and tribune) with a cavalry wing.

less than 10 cohorts is what got me

[Rilder]

I like to go:
1 General
2 Hasati
2 Princepes (sp?)
1 Triarrii
1 Equitzs (or something like that)
1 Leves
1 Rorarii
1 Auxiliarry

I know roman legions used more auxiliarries but this allows me to keep triarrii smaller then the hasati/princepes, plus there easier to deploy on the map, I'l probably replace cavalry/missiles with auxilary units later on. (pentasi and some good calvary comming from my Illyrian provinces )

[CNM]

I have tried playing with 10 unit legions, and palying on VH/H I simply find it to hard to achieve a significant win. So I'm usually fighing with a full stack.

[Rilder]

Yea I see what you mean, Usually I keep them seperated but times like in my current Romani campaign were the First Legion had its commander slain (by a volcano O.o) sometimes they join up with the second for specific purposes, but after thta purpose in complete they are seperated again to prevent the selfish pleb leading the second to get the idea into his head that he can take power over the senate.

[C.LVCIANVS]

My Camillian legion:

-1 General (if avaiable; -1 Equites Romani instead)

Melee infantry:
-5 Hastati
-4 Principes
-3 Triarii

Support infantry:
-1 Rorarii
-1 Leves
-1 Accensi

16 units in total; this allows me to perform a perfect quincux army formation in battle.

Auxiliary Extras:
-1 Samnite spearmen, always recruit from Capua or Arpi attached for each legion
-1 Equites romani, for provide cav support in flanks or reserve
-2 local area levies (gauls in north or greeks in south) or mercenary units

Very expensive full stack army, but truly effective in invading.

[Dooz]

I have tried playing with 10 unit legions, and palying on VH/H I simply find it to hard to achieve a significant win. So I'm usually fighing with a full stack.

No, no. You mustn't play with on H battle difficulty, only M. Then the 10 stack serves its purpose and battles are fun.

[Pharnakes]

To make these perfect though, you would need to edit the Triarii unit to be half the size and cost. However, I'm not exactly sure how to do this. Could someone who does let us know please?

If you use RTW 1.2 patched to 1.5 for your installation then go into my computer C:\Program Files\Activison\Rome - Total war\EB\Data. If you started on barbarian invasion then the path will be C:\Program Files\The Creative Assembly\Rome - Total War\EB\Data. Once in the Data folder find the file called export_descr_unit. Open this up in a text editor and then search for triarii and you will be taken to this:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

type roman infantry polybian triarii
dictionary roman_infantry_polybian_triarii ; Triarii
category infantry
class spearmen
voice_type General_1
soldier roman_infantry_triarii, 40, 0, 1
officer officer_roman_early_centurion
officer officer_roman_early_standard
mount_effect horse +2, camel +2
attributes sea_faring,hide_forest,can_sap
formation 1, 1, 2, 2, 6,square,
stat_health 1, 0
stat_pri 11,2, no, 0, 0, melee, simple, piercing, spear, 0, 0.125
stat_pri_attr no
stat_sec 0,0, no, 0, 0, no, no, no, none, 0, 0.1
stat_sec_attr no
stat_pri_armour 12, 9, 4, metal
stat_sec_armour 0, 0, flesh
stat_heat 4
stat_ground 0, 0, -2, -2
stat_mental 15,disciplined,highly_trained
stat_charge_dist 30
stat_fire_delay 0
stat_food 60, 300
stat_cost 1, 1843, 461, 30, 40, 1843
ownership seleucid, slave

This is the file for polybian triarii (as I'm sure you can see ).
Near the top you will see

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

soldier roman_infantry_triarii, 40, 0, 1

This indicates which skeleton and skin the game should use for the unit but the 40 is the relevant number indicating the number of men in the unit. You can change this to whatever you like (I don't know the limits) but it is probably best to keep this to one of the standard values for infantry 20, 30, 40, 50 or 60. Keep in mind that the values shown are for normal unit size so if you want triarii on half the standard for classical hoplite like units then the value would be 20.
Near the bottom you will see

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

stat_cost 1, 1843, 461, 30, 40, 1843

The 1 denotes time to recruit, 1843 denotes cost to recruit and the 461 denotes upkeep. (per turn) The next two figures represent cost to upgrade weapons and armour respectively and the last the cost to recruit in custom battles. Just remember to keep these values proportional to the unit size (half, the unit size, half the upkeep ect.) or make up your own values if you consider them inappropriate. ( Nobody tell EB team )

If you then search again for triarii you will be taken to the entry for camilain triarii, thus:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

type roman infantry triarii early
dictionary roman_infantry_triarii_early ; Triarii
category infantry
class spearmen
voice_type General_1
soldier roman_infantry_triariiearly, 40, 0, 1
officer officer_roman_early_centurion
officer officer_roman_early_standard
mount_effect elephant -1, horse +2, camel +2
attributes sea_faring,hide_forest,can_sap
formation 0.9, 1.1, 2, 2.4, 4,square,
stat_health 1, 0
stat_pri 11,6, no, 0, 0, melee, simple, piercing, spear, 0, 0.13
stat_pri_attr no
stat_sec 0,0, no, 0, 0, no, no, no, none, 0, 0.1
stat_sec_attr no
stat_pri_armour 12, 9, 3, metal
stat_sec_armour 0, 0, flesh
stat_heat 4
stat_ground 0, 0, -3, -2
stat_mental 12,disciplined,highly_trained
stat_charge_dist 30
stat_fire_delay 0
stat_food 60, 300
stat_cost 1, 1578, 374, 50, 697, 1578
ownership seleucid, slave

Again if you follow the pattern of above then you can half the unit size and costs and make your perfect legion.

(I have tried to give you a "vanilla" 0.81 EB export_descr_unit but as i have modded my files somewhat please ignore any inconstancies).

Don't forget to back up though!

Good luck!
Wolfe.

[Dooz]

Oh wow, thanks a lot Wolfe, much appreciated.

[dutch81]

How about your allies ... does anyone else have a problem with making mortal enemies of Rome such as the Samnites etc. as your allied armies? I prefer not to use them ... and the few allies you get as you up your barracks are very expensive. So I usually just play Roman armies ... witht the idea that many of the allied states largely copied Rome's armies anyway!

Insight from our historians would be appreciated!

[Boyar Son]

At the early stages of the republic (camillan) allied armies were equiped in there native fasion.

Later allies started looking like the Romans and finnaly Marian comes in and you know...

[silverster]

Each one of my armies are composed of two stacks

Camillian/Polybian Consular legion(only Recruited in Rome and Capua, other regions only build barracks, but dont recruit any hastati/princples/triarri. 'Normal' legions does not contain the second stack of allied units)

Stack 1: Roman legion
Cavalry:
1 General

Infantry
3 Hastati
2 Princeps
1 Triarri

1 Accensi
1 Rorarri
1 Leves
^^above 2 to be replaced by 2 units of Velites in Polybian era ^^

Stack 2: Allied forces
Cavalry:
1 Equites Romani(Act as the Tribune or Captain)

Infantry:
2 Semite Spearman
2 Allied Swordman
2 Allied Skimishers
2 Militia Spearman (hoplite, from Tara, if available)
2 Archers (if available, probably from Tara)



It is quite a large stack of units but they march seprately. this way only the Roman legion (1 with the general, first stack) can build Forts and the 2nd stack (allies) would only march into fort once the Roman legion have constructed them.

But as they came in 20 units in total, they fight together (most of the time when map permits) under command of 1 General.

in my campign the darn greeks/macedonians tend to come to be with full stacks of Phalanxes so it took me 3 consular legions (six stacks) to subjugate them... that was fun as hell as in one battle two consular armys meet with three full stacks of Macedonian army.

[Quilts]

At the early stages of the republic (camillan) allied armies were equiped in there native fasion.

Later allies started looking like the Romans and finnaly Marian comes in and you know...

True and false.....

Which 'Allies' are we talking about? The Latin/Socii allies or the Italian allies? It's all very confusing and to be honest alot of books about Republican Rome brush over the allies so quickly you could not be blamed for not realising they existed at all.

As Rome expanded it's influence through Italy it-

1. Gave cities full Citizenship, or
2. Gave cities Socii status ie-Citizenship 'without the vote', or
3. Gave cities Latin Rights, or
4. Entered Alliances with cities, and/or
5. Established colonies of Roman/Socii/Latin citizens.

Irrespective of what form of 'alliance' was offered/accepted, the big point was that Rome determined 'foreign policy' on their behalf. By entering an alliance with Rome, they were not permitted to enter into an alliance with anybody else (even amongst themselves). So, other than cowtowing to Rome regarding foreign policy, and providing troops upon demand, they seem to have been left to themselves

So what does it all mean.....

My Opinion

1. Romans with full Citizenship formed the Legions.

2. The Latin/Socii allies (those with 'lesser citizenship') formed the Alae. They were the guys who were given a 'stake' in Romes internal/external interests by way of their 'citizenship', deficient or not. These guys would have fought just like Romans but were potentially not as well equipped due to wealth. I imagine a city was given a 'figure' of troops it would have to provide and that was that. No census of wealth to assess eligability etc.

3. The Italian allies seem to have formed 'Militias', for want of a better word, for defence in times of great need. We see evidence in this at different times-
a. The size of the armies that fought Phyrrus (well beyond Consular level) and,
b. The specifically mentioned (Polybius) Italian 'Militias' leading up to the Gallic Invasion around 226BC, to name a few.

One would imagine these guys would have fought in a more traditional manner. There is the possibility that they were called upon to provide manpower for foreign wars but I doubt it.

Anyway, enough eh.

Cheers,

Quilts

[CountArach]

Nice post Quilts... I'm not gonna debate that one, not like on the RTR forum

[Boyar Son]

ARRGGHH!!

I cant believe I forgot that only Roman citizens formed the regular troops.

Really I forgot!

I look like a novice now!