Moor of the Shadows

[phonicsmonkey]

Hello - you may notice I have changed my hat.

This is because I'm about to start a new campaign as the Moors. It will be my first in 1.2 (bit slow off the mark there)

Inspired by Didz and his story about a campaign he played in the old STW called "War of the Shadows", I've decided to try to win a long campaign with the following rule:

- no offensive battles against non-rebel factions

that is, I can't declare war against anyone or invade any territory that is not rebel held - I'm thinking of making an exception for jihads, but to avoid exploiting it I won't call any myself...

so, I'm going to need to make full use of agents - spies and priests for unrest to make provinces rebel, diplomats to buy territories and get vassals, and merchants to get me lots of money

I've read the FAQs, some threads on agent use and a couple on the Moors themselves, but I thought I'd throw it open to everyone to pitch in with suggestions as to other strategies I might use, or observations on whether this sounds like a fun game...

and when I get going I'll post back and let you know whether it worked

If it gets boring I guess I can just blitz with camel gunners!

[Shahed]

Moors are a good faction to play in this fashion. You will enjoy it. I sure did, actually I never finished that campaign yet.
It was LTC 2.30 so if you're interested I could post my savegame for you. You will need LTC 2.30 to view it, ofc.

Nice hat BTW.

[Lusted]

You will need LTC 2.3 for the save game to work.

[Shahed]

Just edited my 1st post to make it more clear. You will need LTC 2.30 to view the savegame, all the tips I could guve would be in there so it's easier than writing anyway. LTC also installs apart from your main installation so you can easily install it AND go back to vanilla anytime.

[phonicsmonkey]

hmm, looks like we share a milliner

I have LTC 2.3 - I'm not going to be playing it for this campaign but I dl'd it to copy Lusted's money script...

it'd be cool to look at your save game, how do I get hold of it?

[phonicsmonkey]

shuuuuuu b'daq!

bumping my own thread here, but only so I can let you know how I'm getting on...

after about 40 turns I have yet to take a non-rebel settlement - I almost got Lisbon to rebel with 5 of the sultan's best snoopers parked in there, but they must have hired a private eye of their own as they all got kicked out and have really low chances to get back in....so now I'm training a couple of assassins...

I had a Spanish Cardinal parked next to Cordoba for most of the early game which kept my Imams at home and really slowed down my evangelical aspirations..but I feel like it's about to start rolling now..especially as I have trained up some governers and I'm getting trade, mining and farming bonuses.

On the diplomatic side, I am allied with EVERYONE except england, turkey, scotland and russia, and France who I was allied with until they stupidly blockaded my port...so my reputation is reliable, relations are good and no-one sees me coming..

MWUhahahaha

[Kobal2fr]

Well, the problem I see with your strat coupled with playing the Moors is that your prime targets will be Spain and Portugal, both of which have their capitals reaaaally close to the rest of their provinces. Spy-induced revolts work better on the outskirts of large empires, where the distance to capital works their way too. In fact, I'm not even sure a capital CAN ever revolt :/

[Magraev]

Are you going to post an AAR in the Throne room?

Please do - I'd love to read how you get on.

[Didz]

I suspect that this is going to be a lot tougher to do in MTW2 than it was in STW. Good luck, I'm interested in hearing how you get on.

[phonicsmonkey]

Hadn't considered that Kobal - but that doesn't have to stop me, I can just leave Spain and Portugal with one province each...

It would be good to know for sure though, so I don't waste my time throwing resources at their capital...anyone got a definitive answer on that?

[Didz]

I'm pretty sure that a capital can't revolt, if so one would need to get more inventive. Its probably a justification for a Jihad, massed assassination mission, or perhaps the diplomatic provocation of another faction to attack them.

[phonicsmonkey]

yes I was thinking about slipping some vipers into some portuguese beds...

[Airfix]

I hope you took Timbuktu and that other far, far, away province in northern africa?

BTW: I like your idea of playing a campaign without steamrolling the AI.

[phonicsmonkey]

I took rebel-held Valencia, Tunis, Timbuktu and Arguin in that order.

I meant to take Tripoli as well but I got held up by everyone and their dog arriving by boat at Tunis, so the Egyptians got there first...

Seriously, Tunis is like some giant AI magnet - I've seen stacks from Sicily, Milan, Venice, Papal States and the Byzantines...luckily my diplomats were hard at work and I got alliances with everyone except Byzantium

This left several allied stacks milling around near Tunis, which I have used to help fight off the Byzantines and draw them into war with most of Europe!

I've had more battles with allies in this campaign so far than I ever had in RTW...last night I was able to corner the Byzantine heir and his army of horse archers between the sea and a large stack of Sicilians. It was great fun hanging back and watching the Norman knights rout them, then diving in for the chase at the end....

[phonicsmonkey]

I still haven't managed to get any cities to rebel through use of imams and spies.

However, I have been using diplomacy with some considerable success - I bought Tripoli from the Egyptians, Bordeax from the Portuguese and Zaragoza from the French all for around 5000fl each - bargain!

Plus I am still allied with mostly everyone and even when I get a random port blockade I'm able to get a ceasefire the next turn no problem...

Last night I assassinated the entire Spanish royal line (the King and his two sons), and now I'm all set to take Toledo and Leon which are now rebel-held.

A big advantage of this strategy is that battles (although less frequent) are more challenging, firstly because when a settlement turns rebel it gets a decent garrison, and secondly because the lack of war means the AI is rich enough to send decent invading stacks when it feels like taking me on...

[phonicsmonkey]

Hi Moorwatchers!

sorry it's been a while since my last update, it's been difficult to find time to play..

Here's the state of play at turn 72:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

I have taken 19 territories without ever declaring war, and there are 4 more rebel (ex-Milanese) towns on the table for me if I can scoop them up before someone else gets there first...

As you can see I've managed to unify the Iberian peninsula under the benevolent rule of the Caliphate - the Portuguese royal family met with a series of unfortunate accidents, as did the Milanese.

I've been buying territories from the French until they declared war on me last turn. I may have over-reached slightly in purchasing Dijon without first converting it to Islam, but if it turns rebel I can just re-take it.

My next target is to bump off the Sicilian nobles and move into the Italian peninsula and islands.

I have 154 turns remaining to get 26 more territories including Jerusalem (which could be tricky - better save up some florins and try a bit of bargaining)

So I think this strategy is viable in terms of the victory conditions - it's also a lot of fun and a refreshing change from relentlessly rolling over the AI...

[phonicsmonkey]

exciting times,

I just assassinated the Sicilian royal family and their lands went rebel - so I'm on my way to Naples to get me some of that action when I notice the Pope's best captain is also making a beeline there

I just managed to skip in front of him but I'm all out of movement and I can't get there before him. Plus, because we're allies, even though I'm in his way he can just skip round me and siege the city first

and I can't attack him, because I can't declare war on anybody

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

so I think I'll cancel my alliance instead so I can block him

then I guess the worst case scenario is he'll attack me

so I'll fight him off, assassinate his boss and then make peace with the new guy under the hat

hahahahahahaaaaaaaaaaa

[Ferret]

I'm pretty sure that a capital can't revolt, if so one would need to get more inventive. Its probably a justification for a Jihad, massed assassination mission, or perhaps the diplomatic provocation of another faction to attack them.

Actually Capitals can revolt, I know because in my Scottish campaign I got bored and made all of my provinces go rebel except those in the New World. Nice idea btw I might have to try this out some time.

PS: What are you going to do/what have you done if someone attacks you?

[phonicsmonkey]

Beat them up, send them back where they came from and sue for peace on favourable terms

[phonicsmonkey]

Insh'allah!

I have done it! 45 regions including Toledo and Jerusalem without ever declaring war or taking a non rebel-held settlement.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

And in less than 100 turns. I thought it would be more difficult than it was, but there are a few valuable things I learned from this strategy:

1) Even on VH campaign difficulty it is possible to maintain alliances for long periods.

Granted it helps when you never declare war, but I had alliances last virtually the whole game. My alliance with Hungary lasted 78 turns and I bought Jerusalem from them for a mere 25k fl.

2) It is more or less impossible to get cities to rebel from their owners by the use of spies and religious conversion.

I started out intending this to be my main way of gaining territories, but failed to get a single one this way. Possibly in the late game when there are some AI-held cities in the holy land, far from their capitals, this might work, but I gave up on it pretty early.


3) It's pretty easy to find and assassinate whole royal families in a single turn.

With no limit on the number of assassins you can have running around at any one time, and as long as you spend some time training them up on rebel captains, the odds are in your favour that you'll be able to bump off your enemy's whole royal line and plunge his empire into grey revolt. Seriously, the longest number of turns it took me to kill off a royal family was the English, which took six turns.

4) It is ridiculously easy to buy territories from the AI.

I didn't count, but I must have got about 50% of my lands this way. Sometimes for bargain prices, and with free merc xbow garrisons thrown in.

This gameplay option comes highly recommended - I had a great time here and found it more of a genuine strategic challenge than any TW campaign I've played before.

[Ramses II CP]

Congrats, interesting experiment. One thing I've discovered in my Danish AAR is that swapping territories with the AI can lead to settlement rebellion; i.e. offer a Muslim or Orthodox nation a province from your country in exchange for a province from theirs (For example, I gave the Byz Venice in exchange for Thessalonica I think). You know how to manage religion difference, and because you initiated the trade you can be ready for it, while they're rapidly sucked into a rebellion, at which point you could reconquer the settlement. Having your own spies and priests already present doesn't hurt either.

I'm still trying to figure out if garrison size in a traded city is purely a function of population or if nearby garrisons are taken into account, because if a city lands a massive garrison it can be much harder to bump off. It's not a bad idea to buy up all the decent mercs in the area too.

[Shahed]

Congratz !

[The Stranger]

playing City-State is also fun, mostly recommended for milan or venice. the idea is you only own 1 territory (for the entire game) you can conquer territories and fight wars but you are not allowed to keep them. The idea is that you use those territories to give to countries in trade of vassalship, its a very hard game mode and definitly in the start you will struggle for money and to hold on to your possession. in the start of the game youll find yourself relying mostly on the your generals and some cheap infantry and to beat and conquer contries with such and army is a real challenge.

if people arei nterested i can make a thread explaining it and all the rules

[avery123]

Brilliant work phonicsmonkey. This demonstrates the real breadth of the game. I will take inspiration from this

[phonicsmonkey]

thanks avery123, let me know how you get on if you try this out

that goes for anyone else as well

[_Tristan_]

Congratulations....

I tend to play along the same lines (playing the Long Road Mod on H/VH) as the Danes

The difficulty being that rebels in that mod are much more powerful than in the vanilla game.

I tend to take rebel settlements and sell them to their legitimate owners if I'm not strategically interested in them.

I'm allied with every single faction (and there are 21 of them) and own 17 territories... What I'm most proud of is getting the Pope on perfect relationships and having him pay me tribute of 500 and 800 from the beginning of our relationship... In fact, he's broken our alliance once or twice on a whim and accepted a new allaince in the same turn at the cost of a new tribute...

To maintain my alliances, I've sent a diplomat-in-residence to every faction making bargains each and every turn.

What I generally do, is negotiate an alliance for a tribute and in the next or same turn buy off a province from the same party for approximately an equivalent tribute thus getting a territory from free... Then after destroying the buildings I sell it back to its owner for a bonus...

At the moment I own all of Scandinavia, the Hanse (Hamburg, Antwerp and Bruges) and Southern France (Toulouse, Marseille)...
I also own a territory in the east (around Kiev) and Acre in the Middle East (bought from its owner).

As phonics stated, it's a change from steamrolling the AI and letting a chance to each and every faction to develop...

And I still get to have the most provinces of all factions...

I will eventually have to go to war to get both jerusalem and London which are my campaign objectives unless whole royal families go to bed with snakes or suicide by cutting their own throats...

[phonicsmonkey]

you'll probably be able to buy Jerusalem from any conquering crusading AI faction that manages to get hold of it

you won't be able to buy london if the english still hold it - no AI faction will sell their capital

[_Tristan_]

That's what I 'm preparing to do... But I would really like to send a crusade to Jerusalem...

For the moment I try to play as a Viking Raider, attacking anywhere I can on the map (any rebel settlement), trading with anyone I can, pillaging all I can than giving it back, and establishing trading posts... Real fun...