Friendly Basileus needs help against the Mongol heathens!

[moonshiner57]

Zounds! The Horde on my doorstep! And how can I stop it?

I'm playing a lovely Byzantine campaign using Lusted's LTC mod. So far everything is good, the year is 1209.

The West of the Empire is secure with my border at Durazzo/Sofia/Bucharest and marriage alliances with Venice and Hungary. Not trouble there.

In the East I have pushed back the obnoxious turks to Tibilissi and Yerevan and I currently hold Trebizond, Caesarea, Adana, Antioch and Aleppo. The South is Egyptian and the first wave of Mongols have appeared 15 years ago near Baghdad. They haven't taken any city yet (even though Baghdad and Mosul rebelled from Egyptian rule) and are pushing towward Egyptian-held Damascus.

To battle this new threat, the Empire thought it prudent to ally with the Turks and Egypt.

The question is: How do I best fight the horde? I can reliably train Byz. Spearmen, Dismounted Byz. Lancers, Trebizond Archers, Skythikon and Byz. Lancers. Citys are mostly garrisoned with Spear and Archer Militia and I have a few catapults as well.

What, oh fellow generals, would be your advice with regard to chokepoints / tactics / army composition? My infantery is inferior to theirs, my archers are good, my lancers are medium cavalry at best, my horse archers used to be the Scourge of the East but are now outclassed by their slit-eyed brethren. What regiments should I take to battle and how do I employ them?

So far my not so brilliant plan ist to hold them at bridges with lots of Spears, Archers and Catapults. Also hope that they will attack well-defended Aleppo. A very conservative strategy at most - what if I have to take the initiative? What if they won't attack my obvious 'traps'?

So - how have other Roman Emperors fared against the Horde?

Thanks for any input!

[Lusted]

Well i'd advise trying to tech up to Guard Archers and Byzantine Cavalry as soon as possible as both are good missile units which will help you against the Hordes. Meeting them at the bridges is a good idea as it helps bottleneck their forces. But if they don't attack you armies made up of Byzantine Lancers and Byzantine Cav should be used to make hit and run attack on their forces. Remember that their starting armies have large amounts of xp so are tougher than normal armies, and so don't under estimate them.

[uruk-hai]

try to kill there leaders even if you lose the battle fighting them as long you killed one of there leaders that will be one less high dread generals you will have to fight.5-10 varangain guard,5 byzantine infantry,0-5 archers, and 5 spear millita or better.that army will be able to kill one-3 mongols armys when fighting behide walls,you can take one unit out and make room for a good general if you have one.




fighting there infantry on the walls and attacking them from two sides will easyly kill them.any thing useing a ladder will be easy to kill,so make sure them kill them infantry and archers when there going up the ladders befor all of there unit is on the wall. heres a list a other army you can build that works good for fighting the mongols, once agian if you can't get your hands on the varangain guard,dismount lancers will do.with this army you can hold off the mongols in towns that have cannon towers or ballistas towers with out a great leader.6 varangain guard,6byzantine infantry,0-3 units of archer milita, and 5-7 spear militia,note fullly upgrade byzantine spearmen work better.that all the tips i can think of for now.

[Moah]

Cowards!! Take them in the open. No cowering behind walls and bridges. Shame on you, you sound like the French!

The main mongol tactic is shoot you up to soften you, then charge and watch you rout. It works pretty well.

Take 3 or 4 good stacks. Make sure each is commanded by a general with night fighter. Take lots of archers - to win the initial duel and see off the HA. Lots of good spearmen - to stop the charge. And several high chiv generals (high dread doesn't help your own morale. With the mongol xp they aren't fragile so the best bet is boosting your own).

Now try and pick off the edges of his convoy. 2 -1 if possible. You can win inthe open and it's more fun - but you will lose a lot of units. Lots and lots. But as said above if you can take out 1 general it's a huge moral victory - captains have no night fighting and they won't retrain so the armies get weaker and weaker.

It's attrition and it's not pretty. But it is possible - I had much fun doing this with scots pikes and noble archers backed by generals. It was even easier as turks, I abandoned my HA armies that I had previously used and switched to janissary archers (for stakes) and ottoman (for good stats). Inf used dismounted sipahis and saracen militia (the jhi crumble under charges). Genrals and qapakulu for horsies.

remember: You have an empire and can replace losses. He just gets weaker and weaker. If you face the dreaded Mongol Shuffle while waiting at choke points and walls it will be very, very boring.

[moonshiner57]

That's what I think, I don't want to wait for him to attack me while I kill myself with upkeep. So I will boldly step out into the open and attack the Mongol first wave, conveniently located near Damascus. If things go badly, I can retreat behind the bridge to Antioch and hope to hold the devils there.

I plan to bring 8 Byz. Spearmen, 8 Trebizond Archers and 3 Byz. Lancers, led by Basileus Ioannis the Honourable (8 Chiv) himself. Brace fpr the onslaught and try to kill as many Mongols as possible with arrow fire. My spearmen have only one armour upgrade, so I can only hope that the line will hold and that these wicked looking Mongol Lancers don't flank too far and too deep. My Byz. Lancers are no match for them.

In the Cavalry Commander thread, I read the recommendation to use HA armies against the Horde and thus preserve the strategic mobility advantage. Seeing as the Empire can only field Skythikon this seems pretty foolhardy - does anyonr recommend that approach?

[Moah]

I tried that briefly with Turks: not a success. My sipahis got tired, the others were too weak. Also HA can get severely outshot by foot archers. The sheer volume of arrows coming your way is not healthy for small HA units. The Mongol Inf are not bad in melee either so you need more than a turkoman charge to rout them.

If I was Egypt I might try it with a mameluke army as they're pretty damn good but otherwise...

I do like the Mongol troop composition. Very well thought out. Almost makes up for stupid Ai tactics - it doesn't need any. I found the timurids a total dissapointment after them (one trick pony's or rather elephants. Toast the tusks and they're pushover. Well easier than Mongols anyway).

[Monsieur Alphonse]

You can go all cavalry. An army with eight HAs and the rest heavy cavalry can beat two Mongol stacks. The problem you have is that your HAs are inferior to theirs and your heavy cavalry isn't strong enough. If you have lots of spare generals you can use them as heavy cavalry.

The tactic with an all cavalry army is to defeat their HAs with your HAs and to charge their heavy cavalry and their infantry with your heavy cavalry. The Mongols don't have anti cavalry infantry which means that defeating their infantry with a cavalry charge is simple.

[Brutal DLX]

It depends on the faction you play as. As the Byzantines, you could and should take them in the open, but don't expect to defeat two stacks of theirs with one stack of yours, unless you have a great general and experienced elite troops.

Usually I avoid bridge battles (not because they don't work, but because they are too boring for me), and I command an all-cav army, as others suggested. Try to kill at least their generals and cause attrition. Fielding more than one all cav army usually is too costly, so the real way to defeat them is let them siege themselves to death while contantly harassing them with you cav army. You might lose Antioch, but I can guarantee you that they will never be able to take a properly garrisoned citadel in a siege assault.
Once you have reduced the number of their stacks, it's time to retake your lost cities (if you lost any) and send the ilKhan the right message by wiping them out.

[DVX BELLORVM]

I wouldn't know about the Byzantines, but I had a lot of battles against Mongols playing as Turks (all open field).

Usually I had a lot of Sipahis (great horse archers with decent melee capability), some spearmen and a lot Otoman infantry (archers that can be used in melee - don't know if Byzantines have such a unit).

I'd concentrate the firepower of my horse archers to destroy theirs HA one by one. Their heavy lancers would usually charge my main line, but my spearmen could handle them, especially if they had high chivalry general behind them to boost morale. After neutralizing their cavalry, attack their archers.

This is the theory, things can go terribly wrong in practice.

Expect heavy loses. Heaving a healthy economy helps. Prepare for the war of attrition, and you'll need a lot of florins.

It is relatively easy to beat the Mongols, the real fun starts once the Timurids invade

[edyzmedieval]

Mongols are easy to beat, Timurids are really bad. Even Aztecs are bad...

Anyhow, use Byzantine Dismounted Lancers and Guard Archers. When you stop the guys with the lances, get in the Latinkon on those nomads. Also, make sure you stack up Kataphraktoi. They are very expensive, but they are probably the best cavarly in the game, waay better than the Latinkon. Latinkon are medium cavalry at best...

[Cheetah]

The question is: How do I best fight the horde? I can reliably train Byz. Spearmen, Dismounted Byz. Lancers, Trebizond Archers, Skythikon and Byz. Lancers. Citys are mostly garrisoned with Spear and Archer Militia and I have a few catapults as well.

With these troops? My safe and sound advise is to:

RUN AWAY!!!!

Troops

As the others said you need better cavalry, at least latikons, but kataprakts wont hurt either. You can also get mercenary armenian heavy cavs and alan mercenary cavs too. These are not the heaviest cavs (actually alans are light) but good for the task (and the alans are very fast).

Your spearmen are one of the weakest spears in the game at the level of militia spears they wont hold up against a mongol onslaught (IMO not even with a high chiv general, at least I would not bet my life on it ...). You need at least some elite troops like varangians. Dismounted byz lancers are not bad, but not that good either ... still I would mix spears with lancers.

Trebizond archers are good for the task, IMO the best you can get. Guard archers would be ofc better but IMO out of question due to price and limited ability to retrian them (if you can train any on the first place). So stick to trebizonds and hire merc xbows if you can.

Skythikons are good as HA as long as you want to shot them and do not want to melee. And you dont want to. Vardariotais would be good, in fact a full stack of them would be a life saver; but if you do not have them then mass produce the cheapest HA you can.

Siege artillery: Have at least 1 or two catapults with each of your armies.

Engagement

Your safest bet is to fight bridge battles. IMO in the light of troops you have it is not cowardiance or cheap tactics. With a full stack of silver chevron vardariotais, or with guard archers backed up with katapracts I would face the mongols in the open but with byz spears, lancers and trebizonds better not.

Your second best bet is to let them siege a well defended castle or fortress. Aleppo and Antoich are the obviosu targets, they are heading towards Antioch anyway. So if you have not built your ballista towers then build them asap. Ofc you need a full stack mostly spears (and here your spears should be fine!) some trebizonds (3 or 4), 2 or 3 cavs and 2 catapults.

If you fight them in the open then prepare to die. That should be your baseline expectation. Any better result is a bonus, especially with these troops.

Reserves

In all case you need lots of reserve troops. Even in case of bridge battles. You might defeat one or two stacks but the 3rd or 4th will break through if you dont have reserves.
In the open you can expect to lose your army regardless whether you win or lose the battle. Even if you fight 1v1 battles.
It is important that your mainline troops should be easily retrained in your nearby castles (Adana, Cesarea, Ciprus).
Use city spears. They are the same as your castle spears but it helps to spread the burden to retrain.

Tactics and armies

For bridge battles and city defense I would take similar armies:
1 GB
7 spearmen
3 "more elite" inf like dism lancers or varangians if you can get them
3 cavarly (with some decent melee, lancers are good but vards are good too and they can shot over the fighting troops)
4 trebizonds
2 catapults

In city defense you want to force them to make a "gate rush", in bridge defense they have no other choice. So in case of city defense you have to destroy their siege artillery with yours before they knock down your walls. If they have too many ways to come in you wont be able to hold them.

In bridge defense/gate rush deploy your infantry in a U shape to form a pocket around the bridge/gate. Wait till the first enemy units get into the focus of your U shape then charge them with all your troops. Charge in with your cavs if they seem to push through. Usually armies chainrout but not the mongols, they will fight almost to the last man (so expect high casulties).

For the open considering your troops I would bring:
1 GB
3 armenian heavy cavs (mercs)
2 byz lancers (or byz cav)
6 trebizonds
4 spears
3 dismounted byz lancers
1 catapult

Ofc if you have better troops of the same kind then use them: like varangians instead of dism byz lancers, guard archers instead of trebizonds, katapracts instead of armenians etc.

Your trebizonds + catapult should be enough to hold their archers. They will make a few faint charge with their HA but dont budge. The real charge comes when they move with their lancers. Counter charge them with your heavy cavs then follow up with spears and other inf. You need other inf beause the mongol actually have quite good infantry and they will beat up your spears in no time. Watch you flank/rear vs lancer charges and protect your archer at all cost (you will need them later on).
Do not engage with your general! If he dies, especially if he had high chiv you lost the fight, chainrout. And generals have a tendency to die vs mongols. I lost 4 generals in battle vs the mongols as Venetians (and IMO I had better troops).
If you can beat their melee the fight is not over. Usually they still have plenty of archers, HA left. Do not chase! Pull back and sit tight behind your archers (that is why you need them), let them finish off with the archers, HA. Protect them ofc.

Even if you win expect to lose almost all of your melee troops and most of your archers (so most of your army). It is brave, it is fun but it is not economical. Do it only if you have plenty of spare resources or if you cannot get a bridge battle. You should be able to get a city defense though since you have Antoich and Aleppo.

[Gray Beard]

Vards are almost as good as the Mongol heavy missile cavalry unit. If you have used them in the west and they've gotten some nice chevrons then they can be very effective. They are also ridiculously easy to reach

Your next best Byzantine unit against the Mongols is, I think the Trebizond archer. They get the range and killing power of elite archers and are ridiculously easy to reach.

Kind of a goofy trick with the Mongols is to be able to beat them the first time. Beating them also spreads them out so they cannot help each other. Yeah I know really profound but they are easier to beat in smaller numbers

Try to get an attack on one end of their line as soon as they appear. Don't let them bunch up. If you can attack one stack with three of your stacks they'll retreat and get spread out and you can deal with them one by one.

Once you kill a few of the veteran troops they get easier to beat.

Remember Archers kill archers and good archers kill cavalry. The Byzantines have GOOD archers. Their troops are also generally very good defenders

Try this. If you don't want to setup behind a bridge. Then move where they can see you and let them attack. I do this because I have a numb hand and don't like fast moving battles and this tends to slow the battle down.

Each of your stacks should look something like this
1X General or Heavy Cavalry Unit
4X Spear Militia or Byzantine Spearmen
8X Archers Units Trebizond Archers or Guard Archers are preferred but whatever you can get.
2X Vardariotai, Byzantine Cavalry or Horse Archers
4X Varangian Guard or other heavy infantry but you really the morale the VG units have for this.

Let them attack you. Your better at defending anyway so let them play to your strength. Your goal is to kill lots and lots of them whether you technically win the battle or not is sometimes less important. If you always kill more of them, especially before they capture a city, you will eventually beat them.

Setup on a hill with your archers in two groups of four units facing the attack. Because you are on a hill with elite Archers you have huge range advantage that you are going to use to its full effect. What you want to do is slow the Mongol charge and kill as many of them as you can with arrows. charge. To do that you are going to give them something down the hill to attack and distract them.

Place one unit of VG about 1/3 to 1/2 of the way down the hill. Let the Mongols attack it thinking it is an isolated unit. You'll be killing them possibly before they can start shooting at the VG. The longer that the VG unit stands there the more Mongols die.

Place one unit of Vardaiotai on either side at the same level but separated from the Varagians by quite a distance. These are used as a distraction Use your Vards or HA units to distract other Mongol units. Just run around . The object is to keep the Mongols from charging your archers for as long as possible. Don't even shoot an arrows except to attract attention and to keep something chasing you. Just have them act threatening and try to get two or more units of Mongols cavalry to chase each of your two cavalry units. Keeping four or more units tied up by two is is a huge advantage for you

Group your archers into two groups of four and have all four units in the groups fire at a single Mongol unit so you'll be attacking two units with 8 archers per turn. If possible attack a different unit each turn unless you are attacking a general. 240 arrows will rout many infantry units if not kill them outright. If your two groups of Archers get off four flights of arrows each they will stand a good chance of cutting the Mongol numbers by 1/3. If they can get off six flights without taking a lot of return arrows you've probably won.

If one or two Mongol units decide to get tired by running up the hill at your archers then pin them to a spear unit and crash another VG unit into their flank. VG will not only eat horse meat for lunch they like it.

Hope this helps. It doesn't always work but it works often enough if you are careful. However, when it doesn't work you get sliced to little pieces because the archers don't melee well.

Don't be afraid to withdraw if the Mongols don't take the bait and then come straight up the hill. You'll still have killed more of them than they have of you by the time they reach you and body counts are the name of this game

[Grog]

Depends upon your playstyle, but I found fighting open field with Byzantine all horse armies very effective vs Mongols. However, you need to be a micromanager to get good results from this.

My typical spread would be: 9 varditori, 1 general, rest of stack latinkon/kataphract heavy cav mix

I've always found the Mongols greatest strength (and downfall heh) is their charge. By using a mobile horse army, there is nothing for them to charge at.

So, say the mongols deploy in std formation ie: infantry/general/siege core line backed up by lancers, with HA on the flanks. I'll throw all my vards in two blocks wide on the battlefield, then at the back of my box I'll put general+kata and latinkon into two split heavy cav armies.

As the battle starts, I will rush all my vards to either left or right mongol flank (I choose best terrain for circles/kiting). This usually draws some HA out to fight them. if not flank wide and attack enemy HA 9v1 loose formation. I send green vards in first to draw mongol HA fire, then get the more experienced vards to spread out into loose blocks and join in shooting. Main aim here is to outnumber mongol HA quick and outgun them. If they try to circle, 'feint rush' them. While doing this, my cavalry will move at a walk to a good charge spot, or hold position.

If the Mongols come for the general+cav, I'll move all my vards behind them, still loose, and plink away while the cavalry kite the mongols around. If they stay put, I will continue war of attrition with vards. If they charge the vards, the vards bravely run away until the mongols either spread out into a snake which my heavy cav punches into, or give up in which case the vards resume skirmishing.

Once my vards run out of ammo, the mongols are usually weakened and spread out enough that ctrl-A double right click works wonders

Anyway, that was just my way of having a bit of fun with the Byzantines vs Mongols. The main thing with the hordes is to have as much fun destroying them as possible, in a variety of ways with whatever faction you encounter them. In my recent French chivalry game, against Mongols I would field mainly plate infantry (DFK/voulgier/DNK mix), backed with general, 2 heavy cav and lots of arbusquiers(heavyish Xbow) for open field battles. I'd mix in 3 trebs if fighting mongol siege stack.

[moonshiner57]

With these troops? My safe and sound advise is to:

RUN AWAY!!!!

That might be my best bet :) Thank you Cheetah and Gray Beard for your profound insights. Last night I had a few skirmishes with the Mongols - I sent out my Master Of The Horse with many Skythikon, Byz. Lancers, Alans and a few Khawaratsyournameians. By sheer luck I caught an isolated and depleted half stack with the Khan himself - and managed to capture and ransom him TWICE in the same year!

That filled the Empires war chest with ~40.000 florins, most of which was spent on recruiting. I have bitter need of these soldiers, as the Horde has found a way around the bridge east of Antioch and is now besieging the city itself. Luckily, Antioch is very well garrissoned with 10 Byz. Spearmen, 4 Dismounted Byz. Lancers, 4 Trebizond Archers, some Alans and Basileus Ioannis The 8-Chivalry Wonder. Tonight the hammer strike will fall - I hope the large stone walls and ballista towers of Antioch will hold.

You recommended a quick sally to destroy the Mongol siege equipment - is that really an option, considering their large cavalry and missile force? I fear that my two cavalry units will be ripped to shred before they can even reach the trebuchets.

[Cheetah]

No, do not try to attack the trebuchets directly with yours cavs, but you can send out 1 alan to invite the mongols for a "Benny Hill" chase in front of the wall sections where you have your archers and working ballista towers. In the meantime you might send the other alan (if you can) for the trebuchet.
Also if you have a catapult then send it out just outside of the gate and try to snipe off the trebuchets. The mongols will probably attack it but try to lure them away with your alans. Even if they get your catapult you can cause them lots of damage with your archers and ballista towers.
Ofc keep your infantry and archers within the walls and keep your general in a safe place which cannot be reached by trebuchet fire.

[imnothere]

cheesy tactic alert.

please note that you can "park" your trebuchets.

so for defensive battles on the bridge. you can try to park your (spare) trebuchet just at the front of the bridge, this will reduce the access point even smaller. block the rest with your spearmen. anything that got through will be so exhausted, outnumbered and panicked that you can pick them off at will.

the rest of the archers and trebuchets can just stay back and add to the mayhem at the bridge.

[Gray Beard]

Cheesy tactics are not be despised but praised!

I found the different approached to beating the Mongols listed here to be interesting. Archer based armies can be really fun.

[crpcarrot]

hmm has anyone tried "parking" seige equipemt in front of the gates thereby making it impossible for rams to reach the gate ?

[Ramses II CP]

Yes, it works just fine with a ballista. The ram will push it back into the gate and get hung up, unable to reach it. Even if you can't pull the crew out in time the gates won't open for them with the enemy too close.

[phonicsmonkey]

The ram will push it back into the gate and get hung up, unable to reach it.

lol, nice work

god I love exploits

[Czar Alexsandr]

Patience is the best tactic to deal with the Mongols. In my personal experience the long slow and steady approach of attrition and death from old age is the best tactic. In the first Medival I would hide in the woods with my Halbrediers ready for the offensive absorbing the deadly Mongolian fire.. it was tragic... and sad to watch my massive armies suffer initial losses but after the Mongolians had fired all of their arrows the battle was mine. In Medival 2 I try to gain the advantage of height by choosing a hill or mountain pass as my defensive position, or a defend a bridge or river crossing. It's slow, ardous, tedious, and effective. I can not stand the sight of my troops getting killed so I do everything in my power to keep them alive and not to loose my advantage. With the Mongols it's very easy to enter the battle as the weaker force.. something I'd rather do with some sort of advantage such as a bridge, terrain, etc. As the Byzantines I would reccomend a strict policy of attrition and the gradual and potentially slow destruction of the Mongols. I have fought the Mongols in battle and won on the open field. No gimmicks, just me and my all cavalry-archer army and a good amount of luck. After the battle so many men died, I decided not to do it again in my campaign against the Mongols. I simply couldn't retrain thosse troops fast enough for another attack. I won the battle but the war wasn't looking all that good. Lossing so many good cavalry was a major setback. On a side note, my Grand Duke earned a good number of scars and authority from his wounds earned in battle. Overall though, I reccomend sticking to a doctrine of attrition. But... when you get bored.. sally forth! Lead the men to a glorious battle and show thosse Mongols how to ride!

[moonshiner57]

Antioch fell, of course. When the Mongols assaulted, the brought FOUR armies to the field simultaneously, something I've never seen before. Only 2 ladders and 2 towers, so I felt pretty confident to hold them on the walls and at the gate - until my men saw the 2 trebuchets and the 2 rocket launchers on the other side of the city.

A desperate charge by the Alans and the Emperor himself managed to destroy the trebuchets, but the rocket launchers broke down the walls nevertheless. I held the breach with 2 spearmen for quite some time... but in the end they were overcome and the Mongols swarmed into the city.

The assault on the main gate by 3 Mongol armies was successful as well, altough with terrible losses for them... the Byzantine Spearmen held long, the Trebizond Archers on the walls killed hundreds upon hundreds and countercharges by Dismounted Byzantine Lancers brought down even more - still, in the end every man defending Antioch was slain, including the Basileus himself in a last countercharge. A very "Constantinople 1453ish" moment :)

After that, the real war began, though. I recruied mostly Byz. Spearmen and Trebizond Archers, with what Trebuchets I could manage. With that mix I held them at the bridge north of Antioch and slowly ground their numbers down. When they didn't want to attack any more, I took the offensive... losing the battles but killing them on a almost 1-1 ratio. After 50 years in 1263 (1.5 years/turn in the LTC mod) Antioch was retaken by the Empire.

Now they only have 3 full size armies left, mostly high quality troops. Their dreaded leaders all fell in battle so I feel confident that I'll be able to destroy them.

I found the slow Spear/Archer/Artillery tactic very useful. These troops are easy to replace and even though I a lot of battles were 'lost', the massed ranged damage inflicted made it feel like a win. It's true what other posters here said - if you kill a silver chevroned Mongol Light Lancer at the cost of 2 Trebizond Archers, you will win in the end.

I also tried one or two battles with a pure cavalry force - and it didn't go well. Controlling 19 horse regiments, all of whom are inferior to their Mongol counterparts, was a major hassle. I was getting cornered, charged and skewered left and right... too many things were happening too fast and kill rates at the end were atrocious - too expensive for me. It seems I need to upgrade my horse handling skills before I try that again.

Now the only thing I am concered about is the inevitable Timurid invasion - it seems I'll never have peace in the East an dit also seems like I'm the only one fighting for Europes survival. Bloody Egyptians betrayed our alliance too and declared a jihad on Constantinople. They will be crushed of course.

So thanks all for your opinions, the Empire will live on thanks to its very capable advisors :)

[Czar Alexsandr]

So thanks all for your opinions, the Empire will live on thanks to its very capable advisors :)

Least we could do. ^_^

It's good to hear it went well. I'm fighting the Mongols myself, I am whittling them down with the slow and steady strategy. Which I see you used as well! In the begining it's just to hard to take the offensive don't you agree? It's much eaiser to defend than it is to attack them. The Siege of Antioch sounds like it was handled well to. A loss but at the same time a noble efoort. When you lose a battle to the Mongols sometimes it's not really a loss at all. If you killed a good number of them... you won something. The goal is just to remove them all from the map anyway you can. I have to remember that when I fight them cause a battle with them can go bad pretty easy. If I lose I just try to remember that overall I'm still winning. And noble Basileus died in battle, a glorious end for a noble emporer. A very 1453 moment indeed! In my game recently Ivan, the man who should have been Grand Duke, died in battle. Tragic end but also a glorious end for a man named Ivan the Hounorable. My Russian empire spans from Thorn, Krakow, and Bran to Bulgar and down to Yerevan and Edessa. I'm currently holding the bridge down there and have a lot of good generals down there like my 60 yr old Grand Duke and his brother in law along with some other good young generals. Just keeping the Mongols at bay and preparing for their eventual destruction. Not nearly finished yet and looks like there wll be some difficult battles ahead of me.