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  1. #1

    Post Get the Imperial Legions & Celtic Reforms in 272 B.C.E. here (for 1.0)

    ***Disclaimer: If you can click & drag, and paste something directly in its place, you can do this :-) Thats all you need to do***



    If you are one of the 10 players in EB history thats gotten the Augustan reforms and still had challenging places to conquer, I envy you. Seeing as how the vast majority of us usually do not even get there, heres something that might help motivate the rest of us to keep going.



    The Roman Reforms are first. The Celtic Reforms are at the bottom of the thread.
    -For the Roman faction: this skips Polybian Reforms, skips the Marian Reforms, and allows the Imperial reforms to trigger. If you do this and play another faction, then the AI Roman faction will get to the Imperial Era right off.
    Just a friendly reminder for new players.: If you (not the A.I.) are playing the Roman faction, and use the process_cq cheat to get the Imperial buildings made, when you expand this soon you will fight nothing but levy troops and skirmishers 90% of the time. Quite boring, at least to me. I would wait before expanding until around 240 B.C.E. This gave me time to explore the map, increase skills of the spies, assassins, and diplomats, and get trading agreements, as well as improve my cities and do a bit of reconnaissance on who I was planning to conquer. For the A.I., obviously, it lets them build themselves up, so when you do expand, you will be fighting better armies, better units, and not armies full of levy troops with Romes mighty Imperial Legions!
    -For the Celtic factions (Casse, Aedui, and Arverni): Enables all reforms for the Celts (duh). I *highly*suggest if you do the Roman Reforms, you do the Celtic Reforms too. Same as with the Romans, try and keep from expanding too early so you do not face hordes of Lugoae/levy armies in every battle unless, of course, thats your style. Its often times much better facing Gaesatae, Soldurii, Arverni Nobles, etc...





    Roman Imperial Reforms
    First off, please back up your EBBS_SCRIPT file. Its located inside your EB directory. EB/Data/scripts/show_me/EBBS_SCRIPT.
    Anyway, go ahead and open the EBBS_SCRIPT (It might take a few seconds to open)
    1) At the top, click on "edit."
    2) Click "find" and a prompt will pop up
    3) Where it says "Find What", put this: 2c: Roman Reforms
    4) Check "Down."
    5) Click "Find Next."



    You'll be taken to the beginning of the Roman Reforms section. Looks like what you see below (in red):



    ;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;
    ;Section 2c: Roman Reforms
    ;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;




    (((Now delete everything between Section 2c: Roman reforms. If you notice, you'll scroll past lines with the Marian Trigger and Imperial Triggers. After the triggers, you will see the Polybian line below (in red). Its where you stop deleting. Do not delete the Polybian line or anything below it)))



    ;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;

    ;Polybian Placement





    (((If you have deleted everything correctly, that area of the page will look like whats below. The Roman Reforms title will be right over the Polybian Placement line. You might have a couple lines of empty space between the two)))



    ;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;
    ;Section 2c: Roman Reforms
    ;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;

    ;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;

    ;Polybian Placement




    (((OK, replace all of what you just deleted with this:))))))



    ;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;
    ;Section 2c: Roman Reforms
    ;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;
    ;Before all reforms

    ;Reform Counter 0 = Camilian , 1 = Polybian, 2 = Marius, 3 = Augustus Reforms
    declare_counter Romanii_Reform

    ;Detect current reform
    monitor_event SettlementTurnEnd SettlementBuildingExists = romani2
    and not SettlementBuildingExists = romani3
    and not SettlementBuildingExists = romani4
    and FactionType seleucid

    set_counter Romanii_Reform 1
    terminate_monitor

    end_monitor

    monitor_event SettlementTurnEnd SettlementBuildingExists = romani3
    and not SettlementBuildingExists = romani4
    and FactionType seleucid

    set_counter Romanii_Reform 2
    terminate_monitor

    end_monitor

    monitor_event SettlementTurnEnd SettlementBuildingExists = romani4
    and FactionType seleucid

    set_counter Romanii_Reform 3
    terminate_monitor

    end_monitor



    ; Counters triggering the advisor
    ;
    declare_counter PolybianReformsAdvisor
    declare_counter MarianReformsAdvisor
    declare_counter AugustanReformsAdvisor


    ;Counters that count number of cities conquared
    declare_counter GalCondition
    declare_counter CartCondition

    ; Check Conditions
    monitor_event FactionTurnEnd FactionType seleucid
    and I_CompareCounter Romanii_Reform = 0
    and I_TurnNumber > 120

    ; Unconditional Reforms afther 210BC
    if I_TurnNumber > 248
    set_counter Romanii_Reform 1
    set_counter PolybianReformsAdvisor 1
    terminate_monitor
    end_if

    ; Conditional Reforms
    if I_SettlementOwner Segesta = seleucid
    inc_counter GalCondition 1
    end_if

    if I_SettlementOwner Mediolanum = seleucid
    inc_counter GalCondition 1
    end_if

    if I_SettlementOwner Patavium = seleucid
    inc_counter GalCondition 1
    end_if

    if I_SettlementOwner Bononia = seleucid
    inc_counter GalCondition 1
    end_if

    if I_SettlementOwner Lilibeo = seleucid
    inc_counter CartCondition 1
    end_if

    if I_SettlementOwner Messana = seleucid
    inc_counter CartCondition 1
    end_if

    if I_SettlementOwner Syracuse = seleucid
    inc_counter CartCondition 1
    end_if

    ;Check if Reforms Conditions are met
    if I_CompareCounter CartCondition >= 2
    and I_CompareCounter GalCondition >= 2

    set_counter Romanii_Reform 1
    set_counter PolybianReformsAdvisor 1
    terminate_monitor

    end_if

    ;Reset Counters
    set_counter CartCondition 0
    set_counter GalCondition 0

    end_monitor

    ;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;; MARIAN TRIGGER

    declare_counter Latifundia
    declare_counter ReformatorCounter

    ; Count Latyfundium
    monitor_event SettlementTurnStart SettlementName Segesta
    and I_CompareCounter Romanii_Reform = 1
    and FactionType seleucid
    and SettlementBuildingExists = latifundium

    inc_counter Latifundia 1

    end_monitor

    monitor_event SettlementTurnStart SettlementName Bononia
    and I_CompareCounter Romanii_Reform = 1
    and FactionType seleucid
    and SettlementBuildingExists = latifundium

    inc_counter Latifundia 1

    end_monitor

    monitor_event SettlementTurnStart SettlementName Patavium
    and I_CompareCounter Romanii_Reform = 1
    and FactionType seleucid
    and SettlementBuildingExists = latifundium

    inc_counter Latifundia 1

    end_monitor

    monitor_event SettlementTurnStart SettlementName Arretium
    and I_CompareCounter Romanii_Reform = 1
    and FactionType seleucid
    and SettlementBuildingExists = latifundium

    inc_counter Latifundia 1

    end_monitor

    monitor_event SettlementTurnStart SettlementName Ariminum
    and I_CompareCounter Romanii_Reform = 1
    and FactionType seleucid
    and SettlementBuildingExists = latifundium

    inc_counter Latifundia 1

    end_monitor

    monitor_event SettlementTurnStart SettlementName Roma
    and I_CompareCounter Romanii_Reform = 1
    and FactionType seleucid
    and SettlementBuildingExists = latifundium

    inc_counter Latifundia 1

    end_monitor

    monitor_event SettlementTurnStart SettlementName Capua
    and I_CompareCounter Romanii_Reform = 1
    and FactionType seleucid
    and SettlementBuildingExists = latifundium

    inc_counter Latifundia 1

    end_monitor

    monitor_event SettlementTurnStart SettlementName Arpi
    and I_CompareCounter Romanii_Reform = 1
    and FactionType seleucid
    and SettlementBuildingExists = latifundium

    inc_counter Latifundia 1

    end_monitor

    monitor_event SettlementTurnStart SettlementName Taras
    and I_CompareCounter Romanii_Reform = 1
    and FactionType seleucid
    and SettlementBuildingExists = latifundium

    inc_counter Latifundia 1

    end_monitor

    monitor_event SettlementTurnStart SettlementName Rhegion
    and I_CompareCounter Romanii_Reform = 1
    and FactionType seleucid
    and SettlementBuildingExists = latifundium

    inc_counter Latifundia 1

    end_monitor

    ;Unconditional Reforms
    monitor_event FactionTurnEnd FactionType seleucid
    and I_CompareCounter Romanii_Reform = 1
    and I_NumberOfSettlements seleucid > 89

    set_counter Romanii_Reform 2
    set_counter MarianReformsAdvisor 1

    terminate_monitor

    end_monitor

    ;Conditional Reforms
    monitor_event FactionTurnEnd FactionType seleucid
    and I_CompareCounter Romanii_Reform = 1
    and I_CompareCounter Latifundia > 6
    and I_TurnNumber > 399
    and I_NumberOfSettlements seleucid > 44
    ;and BattlesFought > 249
    and I_CompareCounter ReformatorCounter = 1

    set_counter Romanii_Reform 2
    set_counter MarianReformsAdvisor 1
    terminate_monitor

    end_monitor

    ;Check for Marius wanabe
    monitor_event CharacterTurnStart Trait Reformator > 0

    set_counter ReformatorCounter 1

    end_monitor

    ;Reset Latyfundium Counter
    monitor_event FactionTurnEnd FactionType seleucid
    set_counter Latifundia 0
    end_monitor

    ;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;; Imperial trigger

    declare_counter Romani
    declare_counter AugustanReformatorCounter

    monitor_event SettlementTurnStart BuildingExists = gov2
    and FactionType seleucid
    and I_CompareCounter Romanii_Reform = 2

    inc_counter Romani 1

    end_monitor

    monitor_event FactionTurnEnd FactionType seleucid
    and I_CompareCounter Romani > 54
    and I_TurnNumber > 1
    ;and BattlesFought > 399
    and I_CompareCounter Romanii_Reform = 0
    and I_CompareCounter AugustanReformatorCounter = 1

    set_counter Romanii_Reform 3

    end_monitor

    ;Unconditional Reforms
    monitor_event FactionTurnEnd FactionType seleucid
    and I_CompareCounter Romanii_Reform = 0
    and I_TurnNumber > 1

    set_counter Romanii_Reform 3
    terminate_monitor

    end_monitor


    monitor_event CharacterTurnStart Trait Augustus > 1

    set_counter AugustanReformatorCounter 1

    end_monitor

    monitor_event FactionTurnEnd FactionType seleucid
    set_counter Romani 0
    end_monitor





    When you fire up the game, you will have full access to the Camillian units for the first 4 turns or so. When the Imperial era begins, your barracks will become damaged, and you cannot recruit anymore Camillian units. You can either:

    1) Use those first few turns and build all Camillian era troops to defend your empire until you build the needed military buildings for the Legions, or

    2) Use the process_cq cheat to build the Legion buildings immediately and go on from there, or

    3) Change the reform year time by switching the number in red above to a later year/turn. Like 3 or so.












    Celtic Reforms

    To enable the Celtic reforms, do as follows:

    Open up the EBBS script again.
    1) At the top, click on "edit."
    2) Click "find" and a prompt will pop up
    3) Where it says "Find What", put this: 2a: Celtic Reforms
    4) Check "Down."
    5) Click "Find Next."


    You will come to the Celtic Reforms section. Looks like this:

    ;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;
    ;Section 2a: Celtic Reforms
    ;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;



    (((Delete everything below the Celtic Reforms title, all the way until you see the section below. Its the first of its kind, so if you see alot of these thick paragraph type entries, you have gone too far.)))




    monitor_event SettlementTurnStart SettlementName Adrumeto
    and I_CompareCounter Celt_Reform = 0
    and not SettlementBuildingExists = celt1

    if not I_SettlementOwner Adrumeto = seleucid
    and not I_SettlementOwner Adrumeto = parthia
    and not I_SettlementOwner Adrumeto = pontus
    and not I_SettlementOwner Adrumeto = numidia
    and not I_SettlementOwner Adrumeto = romans_julii
    and not I_SettlementOwner Adrumeto = egypt
    and not I_SettlementOwner Adrumeto = germans
    and not I_SettlementOwner Adrumeto = greek_cities
    and not I_SettlementOwner Adrumeto = macedon
    and not I_SettlementOwner Adrumeto = carthage
    and not I_SettlementOwner Adrumeto = romans_scipii
    and not I_SettlementOwner Adrumeto = dacia
    and not I_SettlementOwner Adrumeto = armenia
    and not I_SettlementOwner Adrumeto = spain
    and not I_SettlementOwner Adrumeto = thrace
    and not I_SettlementOwner Adrumeto = romans_brutii
    and not I_SettlementOwner Adrumeto = saba
    and not I_SettlementOwner Adrumeto = slave




    (((So once you find the section above, delete everything above it, all the way to, but not including, the title of the Celtic Reforms. Replace what you have just deleted with what below:)))




    monitor_event FactionTurnEnd I_TurnNumber > 1
    set_counter Celt_Reform 1
    end_monitor
    monitor_event FactionTurnEnd I_TurnNumber > 2
    set_counter Celt_Reform 2
    end_monitor




    (((If you have done it correctly, you should see it looking like whats below:)))



    ;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;
    ;Section 2a: Celtic Reforms
    ;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;
    monitor_event FactionTurnEnd I_TurnNumber > 1
    set_counter Celt_Reform 1
    end_monitor
    monitor_event FactionTurnEnd I_TurnNumber > 2
    set_counter Celt_Reform 2
    end_monitor

    monitor_event SettlementTurnStart SettlementName Adrumeto
    and I_CompareCounter Celt_Reform = 0
    and not SettlementBuildingExists = celt1




    The numbers in green are the time for the reforms. If you want the Celtic tribes to get the refroms later, just change them to a higer turn.





    Any questions or problems, please post here and I will help where I can. Oh, and most of all, armchair Augustus, enjoy, !!!
    Last edited by Power2the1; 11-15-2007 at 02:18.

  2. #2
    Member Member Darth Stalin's Avatar
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    Default Re: Get the Imperial Legions & Celtic Reforms in 272 B.C.E. here (for 1.0)

    OK, but why deleting all the stuff for the Celts? Maybe they should also have an option like the Romans? So they may develop "in-line", with building lots of stuff like temples etc., but also when the time comes...

    What about modding the Celts a liitle more, and adding something like this (without deleting anything):

    ;Unconditional Celtic Reforms
    monitor_event FactionTurnEnd FactionType scythia
    and I_CompareCounter Celt_Reform = 0
    and I_TurnNumber > 120

    set_counter Celt_Reform 1
    terminate_monitor

    end_monitor

    monitor_event FactionTurnEnd FactionType scythia
    and I_CompareCounter Celt_Reform = 1
    and I_TurnNumber > 240

    set_counter Celt_Reform 2
    terminate_monitor

    end_monitor

    monitor_event FactionTurnEnd FactionType gauls
    and I_CompareCounter Celt_Reform = 0
    and I_TurnNumber > 120

    set_counter Celt_Reform 1
    terminate_monitor

    end_monitor

    monitor_event FactionTurnEnd FactionType gauls
    and I_CompareCounter Celt_Reform = 1
    and I_TurnNumber > 240

    set_counter Celt_Reform 2
    terminate_monitor

    end_monitor

    monitor_event FactionTurnEnd FactionType britons
    and I_CompareCounter Celt_Reform = 0
    and I_TurnNumber > 240

    set_counter Celt_Reform 1
    terminate_monitor

    end_monitor

    monitor_event FactionTurnEnd FactionType britons
    and I_CompareCounter Celt_Reform = 1
    and I_TurnNumber > 480

    set_counter Celt_Reform 2
    terminate_monitor

    end_monitor

    IMHO that should be placed just before the "settlements" section of the code...
    DARTH STALIN - Lord Generalissimus of the Union of the Socialist Sith Republic

  3. #3

    Default Re: Get the Imperial Legions & Celtic Reforms in 272 B.C.E. here (for 1.0)

    Quote Originally Posted by Darth Stalin
    OK, but why deleting all the stuff for the Celts? Maybe they should also have an option like the Romans? So they may develop "in-line", with building lots of stuff like temples etc., but also when the time comes...

    What about modding the Celts a liitle more, and adding something like this (without deleting anything):

    ;Unconditional Celtic Reforms
    monitor_event FactionTurnEnd FactionType scythia
    and I_CompareCounter Celt_Reform = 0
    and I_TurnNumber > 120

    set_counter Celt_Reform 1
    terminate_monitor

    end_monitor

    monitor_event FactionTurnEnd FactionType scythia
    and I_CompareCounter Celt_Reform = 1
    and I_TurnNumber > 240

    set_counter Celt_Reform 2
    terminate_monitor

    end_monitor

    monitor_event FactionTurnEnd FactionType gauls
    and I_CompareCounter Celt_Reform = 0
    and I_TurnNumber > 120

    set_counter Celt_Reform 1
    terminate_monitor

    end_monitor

    monitor_event FactionTurnEnd FactionType gauls
    and I_CompareCounter Celt_Reform = 1
    and I_TurnNumber > 240

    set_counter Celt_Reform 2
    terminate_monitor

    end_monitor

    monitor_event FactionTurnEnd FactionType britons
    and I_CompareCounter Celt_Reform = 0
    and I_TurnNumber > 240

    set_counter Celt_Reform 1
    terminate_monitor

    end_monitor

    monitor_event FactionTurnEnd FactionType britons
    and I_CompareCounter Celt_Reform = 1
    and I_TurnNumber > 480

    set_counter Celt_Reform 2
    terminate_monitor

    end_monitor

    IMHO that should be placed just before the "settlements" section of the code...


    Ironically, I originally had something kinda similar to what you have.

    The main reason I offered immediate Celtic Reforms is so hopefully one faction will get the edge over the other one in Gaul. The Aedui and Arverni stalemate for so long, and they *never* make peace even for a few turns, that by the time the Britons, Germans, Romans, or any other faction heads into Gaul, they get steamrolled too often.

  4. #4
    Member Member Darth Stalin's Avatar
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    Default Re: Get the Imperial Legions & Celtic Reforms in 272 B.C.E. here (for 1.0)

    So possibly there could be added something like "FactionIsLocal" factor, to improve the Gauls when ruled by the AI; my proposal may be used for Human player, and the similar could be done also for AI gauls...
    Thus they would get reforms every 30 years, so after some 60 years (just when the 2nd Punic war would start) the Romans can face quite ferocious opponents anyway...
    DARTH STALIN - Lord Generalissimus of the Union of the Socialist Sith Republic

  5. #5
    Member Member Darth Stalin's Avatar
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    Default Re: Get the Imperial Legions & Celtic Reforms in 272 B.C.E. here (for 1.0)

    OK, I did something like that:

    ;Unconditional Celtic Reforms_human player
    monitor_event FactionTurnEnd FactionType scythia
    and I_CompareCounter Celt_Reform = 0
    and I_TurnNumber > 160

    set_counter Celt_Reform 1
    terminate_monitor

    end_monitor

    monitor_event FactionTurnEnd FactionType scythia
    and I_CompareCounter Celt_Reform = 1
    and I_TurnNumber > 320

    set_counter Celt_Reform 2
    terminate_monitor

    end_monitor

    monitor_event FactionTurnEnd FactionType gauls
    and I_CompareCounter Celt_Reform = 0
    and I_TurnNumber > 160

    set_counter Celt_Reform 1
    terminate_monitor

    end_monitor

    monitor_event FactionTurnEnd FactionType gauls
    and I_CompareCounter Celt_Reform = 1
    and I_TurnNumber > 320

    set_counter Celt_Reform 2
    terminate_monitor

    end_monitor

    monitor_event FactionTurnEnd FactionType britons
    and I_CompareCounter Celt_Reform = 0
    and I_TurnNumber > 160

    set_counter Celt_Reform 1
    terminate_monitor

    end_monitor

    monitor_event FactionTurnEnd FactionType britons
    and I_CompareCounter Celt_Reform = 1
    and I_TurnNumber > 320

    set_counter Celt_Reform 2
    terminate_monitor

    end_monitor

    ;Unconditional Celtic Reforms_AI player
    monitor_event FactionTurnStart FactionIsLocal
    and I_CompareCounter Celt_Reform = 0
    and I_TurnNumber > 120

    set_counter Celt_Reform 1
    terminate_monitor

    end_monitor

    monitor_event FactionTurnStart FactionIsLocal
    and I_CompareCounter Celt_Reform = 1
    and I_TurnNumber > 240

    set_counter Celt_Reform 2
    terminate_monitor

    end_monitor

    And shall see if the AI-controlled Gauls shall expand their military to be o bigger problem for the Romans etc.

    BTW: have You noticed that when looking at AI behaviour, i.e. when AI controlled Gauls were invaded by Germans or Romans?
    DARTH STALIN - Lord Generalissimus of the Union of the Socialist Sith Republic

  6. #6

    Default Re: Get the Imperial Legions & Celtic Reforms in 272 B.C.E. here (for 1.0)

    And shall see if the AI-controlled Gauls shall expand their military to be o bigger problem for the Romans etc.

    BTW: have You noticed that when looking at AI behaviour, i.e. when AI controlled Gauls were invaded by Germans or Romans?
    Yesterday 20:38

    In 1.0, I have not played too far into the game yet. I am around 255-260. I play hard battles, medium campaign. I will report back once the campaign goes further and Rome has plenty of legions to throw around. Right now, its a bit to early to tell for sure what will happen with Rome and the Germans, but heres what I have seen so far, and its interesting me thinks:

    Germans seem to be expanding very slowly. They are very active though. The have failed to besiege their local towns, but keep at it every few turns

    With the Romans, its like the A.I. knows it cannot expand with it's reserve of left over Camillian units, so it sits and waits. The Roman A.I. has just built its last barracks in Arpi, so I expect some legions on the scene soon. Will be interesting to see what Epirus does.

    Aedui and Arverni are going at it, I've seen only one elite unit so far, so they must have built their elite barracks.

    The Casse have taken Wales and Cornwall, so they have the south of the island. They did this very fast.

    Surprisingly, the Dacians are super active! They have taken Sarmiszegethusa and are currently besieging Kallatis on the shores of the Black Sea, and one of their towns to their immediate west. Very cool if you ask me. I feel they are my biggest threat.

    I (Macedonia) have kicked the Koinon on out of Greece becasue they would not make peace no matter what I would offer (typical), so for now, I feel secure in my area. I choose them to play because I want to be close to the legions, but far enough away so as to have ample time to build up my own elite forces. Pherispidai and Hypaspistai will be waiting for the legions when our territories meet

    I will report back once the campaign goes further and Rome has plenty of legions to throw around. Right now, its a bit to early to tell for sure what will happen with Rome and the Germans

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