Drubbing Elite Makadon Scuta'n Sarissa Walls?

[cmacq]

Out of necessity I'm forced to embroil myself in an early Camillan Era war with a resurgent Makadonia that had come to dominate much of Greece. Has anyone found an easy way to quickly rout these massed Argyraspides? Often its like fighting tanks with spitwads. I've fought the Makos many times before with great and rapid success, but never like this.

And...
do these Makos ever run out of men?

[russia almighty]

Neitos will smash their asses .

[cmacq]

Never used them. How and why are they better on the attack; when and where can they be had? Are they Polybian Era?

[russia almighty]

Neitos are not only heavily armored but their sword has a .225 lethality .

You can get them in Venetia , Liguria, Amelia . Those are all right next door to you . Level 4 regional MIC will get them .

[cmacq]

Master of all Italy, yet its still very early in the game and level 4s in the north remains a ways off. Have you a plan B?

[russia almighty]

Your screwed .


Unless you've got Triarii .

[Centurio Nixalsverdrus]

Makedonia is invincible, you should better quit your campaign.

[cmacq]

This is not an option. Right, a plan C, then?

I've tones of Triarii, yet I grow weary of feeding the beast.

[russia almighty]

willing to cheat for one city ?

[Hooahguy]

you can also do what i did as the romani against superior phalanxes, and will be applying to my Getai campaign....
http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showp...41&postcount=1
i posted this ages ago over at the TWC, as you can see (i dont go over there anymore- the EB forums there arent nearly as alive as they are here! )

its pretty effective, especially if you have troops which like to ambush......

[jhhowell]

This is not an option. Right, a plan C, then?

When in doubt, call on mercenaries. Rome is a very rich faction, you can afford it, right??

Merc Pezhetairoi make much nicer sarissa-meat than your spitwadsmen, freeing the latter for flanking. I've heard good things about Thracian Peltasts, if you're campaigning over in Greece rather than Italy (yeah, who am I kidding, the AI crossing the Adriatic? Not gonna happen). If you don't have Equites Extraordinarii ready yet, the Thessalians are pretty similar as I recall. Cretans will help a lot if you have to fight sally battles against Makedonian sieges.

[cmacq]

Right, won't ever cheat, but my plan is to take that one city, and call it a day. I've used massed flaming arrows; front, rear, and sides, with frontal, flanking and rear attacks to some success. Still, in several battles, groups of these bloody Argyraspides have hung on for no good reason long after all the other Makos have been butchered or run off.

Massacred the initial Mako seige army, this started the dance, as they attacked me first. Then picked off another 10-12 units, piecemeal in the mountains on their way to Epeirus, before they could mass. Then moved on the key to the Mako defense; Pella. Every time I beset Pella another Mako army appeared and I retreated back along my lines into the mountains. Again, they follow and on my terms they become bird food.

I've even conned the east Greeks and Getai into being allies. Although, they're of little or no help. The thing is its getting difficult to get replacements and another army into the Pella area. My revised plan is to keep the Makos pinned around Pella and slip a new army south into the Peloponnese. If the Makos move to defend the Pelopon, I'll take Pella as well.

I've used levied Greeks (mainly Haploi) form southern Italy as frontal fodder to pin the sarissi, up till now.
Pezhetairoi?
I'll let them have a go.

[TWFanatic]

i posted this ages ago over at the TWC, as you can see (i dont go over there anymore- the EB forums there arent nearly as alive as they are here! )

That's because I stopped posting under my numerous user-names over there and came over here.

Regarding Macedonian phalanxes: I find that they rout easily when nailed in the rear by a few pila. For this reason, I generally just don't engage phalanxes from the front at all, but "skirmish" until I get a good shot to throw some pila at the right or rear. Slingers and flaming arrows are also good, just make sure you fire in the rear or right side.

I also change my from my traditional strategy of deciding a war by a few major contests. Large, decisive battles, in which a wall of pikes is nearly impenetrable and hard to flank when protected on either side by companions and Thessalian cav, are thus favored by the Macedonians. So while I prefer large battles as Rome when facing most northerners (Gauls and Germans) and Carthaginians, I prefer small skirmishes and minor conflicts when facing phalanx-based nations. The same is true when playing as the KH. The reason is that it is far easier to beat a few isolated phalanxes than a massive wall of sarrisas. I also use more cowardly tactics of avoidance and attrition when I'm simply too underpowered to face the enemy.

Case in point. In my KH campaign, I've just conquered the Macedonians after a bitter war which cost both sides dearly. I was barely standing, an invasion would have ended me (hey, it's hard to beat a Macedonian army twice your size and commanded by an eight star general when you've got militia hoplites and skirmishers and are playing on vh/h). Vastly undermanned, it would be unthinkable for me to stage an invasion at that point. This is particularly true of my neighbor, Pyrrhus who had two full stack armies next door. One commanded by him, with his ten stars, another by his heir, with 6 or 7.

Then the oddest thing happened. The heir went north and Pyrrhus' army hopped aboard a ship and sailed away...leaving Pyrrhus himself in command of a tiny garrison force. I seized the opportunity and invaded an almost-undefended Epiros with a puny force about a tenth the size of my foes. By blitzkrieg I swarmed through and captured both settlements of mainland Epiros in two turns (killing Pyrrhus while he was away from his army). I then attacked small enemy armies which roamed around unsupported, but refused to give a major battle to the army which returned with the fleet until I had built up an army of sufficient strength to challenge them (which wasn't hard having captured Ambrakia (as I believe it's called), the Epirote captial, with it's level 4 MIC. The Epirotes, without a FM in command, were crushed.

By such cowardly tactics I managed to claim victory even though I was technically a far weaker nation.

[cmacq]

Thanks for all the help, I'm off to see how it works for me.

[konny]

I've used levied Greeks (mainly Haploi) form southern Italy as frontal fodder to pin the sarissi, up till now.

That's what I would do too. But I would use real Hoplites, they are much better than the Haploi and much cheaper than Triarii. Make sure you have enough of them because you need about 3 units of Hoplites to pin two of phalanx.

The best way to fight phalanx-heavy armies without having them yourself is to let them attack you. There will always be gaps in the enemy's line once he starts moving, where your expert swordfighters can sneak in while your Hoplites prevent the other phalanxis from closing the line again.

[Tellos Athenaios]

I would employ a couple of Samnites/Allied Inf. for the "gutting the phalanx" job: similar to what the Kluddolon (sp?) would do in real life. Following up with your triarii/principes/hastati and the phalanx should break pretty quickly.

Make sure to have some kind of heavy cavalry to mount a charge or two as well.

[pezhetairoi]

Use your cavalry. Losses notwithstanding, triarii in front, principes and hastati/alae on flank, and your lonchophoroi hippeis (you DO have them don't you?) or Campanici/Romani in formed charges. They will break. Seriously. I've shattered argyraspides with just Kavakaza Sparabara and Mada Asabara. It can be done...if you're playing on Medium.

Where are the Makedones right now? Do you HAVE to fight them? Just retreat into Italy and conquer some other places first. Then you can just hurl men and materiel at them. Attrition would be appropriate.

[unreal_uk]

Make them sing for their supper. A worn out phalangite unit will fold fast when hit from behind by fresh axe or sword troops. Try some sneaky movements, feints, etc. Also, if you have the opportunity to rout any lesser light troops they might have with them, take it. It'll add another morale-busting element for them to see allies routing.

The best method though, is to split them up. A single large block of phalangites is, rightly, very very tough to beat. The AI though is stupid enough to get incredible confused if you come from different directions while hitting them with missiles, they'll be running all over the place. Steal the opportunity when you can - if you see that single phalangite unit getting confused as to its position, and it opens up a flank for a second, go in for the kill.

As much morale-damaging as you can manage, too.

[Hooahguy]

as i stressed before, split your forces into 2 groups- the enemy will go after one, then you can hit them from behind with the other one.

[cmacq]

Right, since the release of 1.0 I've developed a fool proof early game. Herein, I quickly take all of southern and northern Italy in the 1st stage so that I have the economic base to deal decisively with Carthage in a 1st Punic War. In stage two I quickly gain Sicily, Sardinia, and Corsica; then rapidly move to knock out Epirus, take the Adriatic coastal strip, and gain footholds in southern France and northeast Spain. The later two acquisitions are to be used as staging areas for future wars in the Polybian Era. Again I call this gambit 'my Roman Early Game.'

At this point I'm at peace with nearly all, so I build my infrastructure and await the Polybian Era. As Greece is always divided equally between the East Greeks and Macedonia, if either give me any grieve I just whack which ever attacks. I've played this early game about 10 times now and have gotten the initial conquest of Italy down to about 10 years (272 to 262 BC) with the 1st Punic War and subsequent conquests taking another 10 years (261 to 251 BC).

In the current game I managed to cut a year off the initial stage (conquest of Italy). However, though diplomacy I noticed that Macedonia had quickly consolidated all but Sparta in Greece. I knew that if this trend continued Macedonia would become a significant threat immediately after the conquest of Epirus. I also managed to shave several more years off the 2nd stage of this game ( 254 BC ) as in Epirus I noticed Macedonia had possession of seven districts and was in the process of besieging an eighth (Aitolia). For some reason this siege failed and as the Macedonians moved off I immediately attacked Aitolia. As I though, the Macedonians immediately attacked, besieging Epeiros. As this war progressed we are brought to the previous posts in this thread.

Thus up-armed with information from this tread I went back a single turn and this is the current SitRep. It’s strange how a very slight change in a plan may result in an entirely different progression of a war. Because of the favorable terrain I focused on Demetrias rather than Pella. Here with the small portion of this army I built a fort to hold the narrow pass north of Demetrias to impede any northern approach of heavy forces coming south of from Pella. This simple move also immediately split the Macedonians and in effect made it impossible for them to mass their entire field force. With the larger portion of this army I beset Demetrias. As you know it’s very difficult to reach an army besieging Demetrias from the north with a relief army approaching from the south. I also hired two Kretan Archer units.

Next, around Epeiros I diverted the forces earmarked to reinforce the army operating around Demetrias (previously this would have been Pella). Half were sent south through Thermon and on into the Peloponnese while those remaining were moved east to block the mountain passes between Epirus and Macedonia. Nearly all of these were relatively weak Greek auxiliary troops. The small southern force quickly beset Corinth as Macedonia countered by sending armies north from Athens and south from Pella in relief of Demetrias. These relief armies were realitively large but weak containing only two Phalanxes each and with massed archers positioned on my left were quickly cut to pieces.

As the above was transpiring Pella sent a strong elite Phalanx army west towards Epeiros which ran into the small blocking force I had positioned in the mountains. Actually, I had moved this force there as a staging area, awaiting the arrival of a larger Roman army coming from southern Italy, which in turn would together move on Pella. This auxiliary force was composed of 5 Haploi and 1 slinger reinforced by a Triari unit, as it was not designed to fight independently. On the other hand the Macedonians had a core of four elite Phalanxes supported by four light skirmishers but no general or any horse. I knew if this force remained they would be brushed aside, yet figured I had to make a showing so that the army from southern Italy could get to Epeiros before the Macedonians (if this was the AI’s plan as a move on Epeiros would cut my forces in two).

During this battle because I held the high ground I was able to out maneuver the elite Phalanxes and concentrate on the light skirmishers, which were quickly routed. However, as I had thought, I couldn’t make dent one on the Phalanxes while nearly half my field force was lost, so I began to withdraw off the battlefield to the west. Now came the deceive moment in this entire Macedonian campaign. As four of my units withdrew one Phalanx followed as the other three Phalanxes each followed only one of my other withdrawing units. However, along the rout of this single following Phalanx was a cluster of what appeared to be rock outcroppings.

To my utter disbelieve I watched as this elite Phalanx apparently got itself wedged between the rocks of this outcropping and progressed to became a nearly disorganized series of individual men. The words of the Classical authors flashed in my head and I immediately fell upon them from different sides, their numbers dropped like a stone and the Phalanx quickly routed, and was wiped out to the man. I lured two of the remaining three into the same trap with the same results. The forth would not follow, but became so demoralized it began to withdraw east from the battle so my remaining troops ran it down, it too panicked and broke losing nearly all its men. Was this rock outcropping thing an EB intentional design or did it just happen for the same reasons it did historically?

This little battle somehow seemed to have broken the Macsdon back and at this point I’m besieging Demetrias, Corinth, and Pella while additional forces are moving on Athens and Tylis. It seems that the advice in this threat was helpful in finding a way of easily dealing with the elite Phalanxes. It was pure luck finding out about the outcrop thing. However, apparently my initial plan of concentrating on Pella was indeed flawed and in fact Demetrias was the key to the Macedonians defense. I'm not sure if Macedonia is done for yet, but the more Mako cities in have beset the fewer new armies it can raise.

[pezhetairoi]

Well, you've essentially done what Napoleon liked to do in a situation of perceived inferiority: cleave his way into a central position, and also cut the enemy's forces in half so they couldn't mass all at once on you but come at you piecemeal. The outcropping was, to be frank, no intention of EB but just simple, sheer, RTW AI pathfinding stupidity. Sorry to bust your bubble, mate. But it was one lucky break. I do not see how else you could have broken four elite phalanxes with five hoplites, of which four are greatly inferior, and no cavalry or strong flankers.

Good for you, good for you. I'm doing something related in my current Arverni campaign as the Getai held everything from the Balkans to Gordu Neuriji and the Chersonesos. The moment the war began I massed three fullstacks on their frontier but held back until the central one had thunderbolted into Olbia and cut the Getai empire into three. Then the northern one split the attention of the three fullstacks surrounding Neuriji so the central one dealt with one while the northern one dealt wth two and took Neuriji. Central army hasn't moved since, staying around Olbia to isolate the three (now two) parts from one another while the southern army (now joined by another one) took apart the Balkan Getai heartlands. Then the central army would wipe out the Chersonesos. So far the central army has made use of its central position to intercept and destroy any Getai armies attempting to cross Skythia to get to Neurije, Chersonesos, or Getia, and drawn so many forces from the Getai (including garrisons) lands that either they march to Olbia and get destroyed, or march towards then turn back in indecision to be caught outside the (now besieged) cities they once garrisoned and destroyed piecemeal in the field in a straightforward fight in which i have both numerical and qualitative superiority.

But of course, that's from a strategic point of view. Haven't matched up to pikes yet in my campaign, Makedones are in Asia Minor where I do not intend to invade (yet) and Greece is owned by the KH whose hoplites I can match with my own. But practice ought to bear out what our theorising here has come up with.