What's going on just south of Sparta?

[Apgad]

There's a bit of land on the southern edge of the Pelopenesse, just south of Sparta, that seems to be split between 4 regions. Part belongs to mainland Italy, part to Lakedemon, part to Crete, and part to Kilikia. It's the middle prong of the fork, so to speak.

Why is this so? I can't believe that conquering Crete would automatically give you just a toehold on the mainland, so I presume it's there for some reason. Just wondering...

[Tellos Athenaios]

Cape T.

Aka.

Mercs R' Us.

[pezhetairoi]

In case that wasn't elucidated enough, Cape T is Cape Taenarum, famous mercenary emporium of the ancient Mediterranean. Mercenaries from all over the world would gather at the temple of Poseidon at the cape and await employment. Because of what we may call agglomeration and what we may also call the basically violent nature of man, employment was guaranteed because people would always have a need for them (particularly their fellow greeks) and they would always know where to go to get them.

I think it might not have been entirely unlikely that enemy hirers could meet at the emporium.

'Well look, if it isn't the b*tch Pheidias the Athenian. What in the name of Aphrodite's rosy arse are you doing here?'

'Ah, the incorrigible Apheirion of Locri! How goes your own rosy arse then, still sore from your nights with Eumenes? Anyway, I'm here to hire two thousand thureophoroi for Athens. To fight you with, you know.'

'Oh I say! I'm here to hire troops too, my city needs a thousand or so Cretan archers. To shoot your men down with, you know.'

'Is that right? This is looking to be a really interesting war. You know what, I really have to go. Got deadlines to meet, implacable supervisors to placate. Have to feed my family, you know. It's been great meeting you here.'

'Aye, good to see you too. Great thing, this war, isn't it? We wouldn't have been able to see each other otherwise. What's it been, ten years?'

'More like twelve, since that whole affair with Pyrrhos and Taras and those Roman barbarians.'

[Mouzafphaerre]

.
And since the battles were always fought M&B style, Φείδιας and Αφείριων would only be "knocked unconscious", while their thureophoroi and cretans were being slaughtered, to meet in the next war.
.

[Apgad]

OK, so the different bits of "ownership" allow mercenaries from all of those particular regions (Italy, Greece, Crete, Asia Minor) to be hired in the one place? Now that makes sense.

Thanks guys.

[Bactron]

Wow! That is pretty cool feature. Previously I tought that it was some sort of bug.

[Zarax]

Were there more places like that?
It would be an interesting addition for some mods...

[mrdun]

Sounds really good. nice addition!!

[Pezlu]

Wow, didn't know it was for that!

Two questions come to my mind, however:

1) Those "bits of land" don't count as a shared border? Won't, for example, KH try to attack whoever controls Crete, or Kilikia at the moment because they share a border?

2) Wouldn't it have been better to make a different merc pool jsut for the province of Sparta (can't recall the name sorry) so the AI used it as well? It may not have been as accurate, but I guess the AI never goes there

Sorry if these are stupid questions but I'm not an expert modder... maybe they are just undoable otherwise

[anubis88]

Wow, didn't know it was for that!

Two questions come to my mind, however:

1) Those "bits of land" don't count as a shared border? Won't, for example, KH try to attack whoever controls Crete, or Kilikia at the moment because they share a border?

2) Wouldn't it have been better to make a different merc pool jsut for the province of Sparta (can't recall the name sorry) so the AI used it as well? It may not have been as accurate, but I guess the AI never goes there

Sorry if these are stupid questions but I'm not an expert modder... maybe they are just undoable otherwise

1) AFAIK the AI isn't so keen on doing that if the province holder is not the human player. Plus the two provinces are at the start eleutheroi and ptolemaic so there's practicaly no way that the AI will backstab their AI allies(CA conspiracy )

2) AFAIK the problem si you can't have more than 20 mercenaries in a region, and IIRC there are much more merc's in that area...

But i can see how this could be a problem for the dumb AI

[Pezlu]

Yeah, the good old AI conspiracy, didn't think about it

Thanks

[MarcusAureliusAntoninus]

The AI seems to attack city only if they share a border and can see the city itself.

[CirdanDharix]

.
And since the battles were always fought M&B style, Φείδιας and Αφείριων would only be "knocked unconscious", while their thureophoroi and cretans were being slaughtered, to meet in the next war.
.

And if they're captured, they will escape with only the loss of an irreplaceable but fortunately quite useless item, whereas their mercs shall be sold into slavery.

[Jolt]

I always wondered what was the point in the beginning. But then it made no sense having three chunks of separate province apart unless it wasn't for merc recruitment. I just don't get it why can't we reach it by land through Sparta.

[Tarkus]

Wow, indeed...I have to say "ditto" to Bactron's original statement...I also thought it was just some sort of map-generation bug and left it alone.

Oh, I never should have doubted you, Dev Team!!!

Yet another feature that makes this the greatest RTW mod out there. Thanks!!!

[TWFanatic]

I always wondered what was the point in the beginning. But then it made no sense having three chunks of separate province apart unless it wasn't for merc recruitment. I just don't get it why can't we reach it by land through Sparta.

Because it was only reachable by sea.

[Perturabo]

Wow, didn't know it was for that!

Two questions come to my mind, however:

1) Those "bits of land" don't count as a shared border? Won't, for example, KH try to attack whoever controls Crete, or Kilikia at the moment because they share a border?

2) Wouldn't it have been better to make a different merc pool jsut for the province of Sparta (can't recall the name sorry) so the AI used it as well? It may not have been as accurate, but I guess the AI never goes there

Sorry if these are stupid questions but I'm not an expert modder... maybe they are just undoable otherwise

I noticed that the Ptolies seem to enjoy attacking KH (as human or AI) and often suspected that this was the cause. Its incredibly irritating to see KH being pummeled by the Ptolies who are supposed to be stalwart allies and benefactors when I have just spent years and lots of money saving them

Just by the side, would it be fair to say that allies in RTW are given some sort of IQ penalty as they seem incapable of self defence, and that enemies are encouraged to attack them? As soon as I ally with a faction they are doomed

[PershsNhpios]

Hmm, I must have both a different game and a different version of EB.. Because the AI does not behave dumbly at all, and certainly does not backstab.
I have had an alliance with Epeiros, 6th most powerful faction, my Getics being the third, for 70 years in my campaign - we share a border of 4 provinces, three of those on my part being defended by a garrison of one company.
They have never hinted at betrayal, and often stand before my cities and defend them from the now barbarous Makhedonians.

I think you simply have to treat the AI with respect, odd as that may feel, and see the bright side of it's suspicion, if I were playing a game where everybody's object is to eventually destroy or reduce everyone, friend or foe, I would be cautious also - and I am.
I do my best to think of the AI as a human player, use the diplomacy system to figure as complicated deals as I can, and the AI often does some extraordinary things in reply.

[Perturabo]

Hmm, I must have both a different game and a different version of EB.. Because the AI does not behave dumbly at all, and certainly does not backstab.
I have had an alliance with Epeiros, 6th most powerful faction, my Getics being the third, for 70 years in my campaign - we share a border of 4 provinces, three of those on my part being defended by a garrison of one company.
They have never hinted at betrayal, and often stand before my cities and defend them from the now barbarous Makhedonians.

I think you simply have to treat the AI with respect, odd as that may feel, and see the bright side of it's suspicion, if I were playing a game where everybody's object is to eventually destroy or reduce everyone, friend or foe, I would be cautious also - and I am.
I do my best to think of the AI as a human player, use the diplomacy system to figure as complicated deals as I can, and the AI often does some extraordinary things in reply.

It can be the case. As I noted in my comments regarding the Selucids elswhere, I have reached around 220BC, and Baktria, Parthia and Armenia are still firm friends, with the Armenians actually sending a full stack to clear rebels away from one of my northern cities. This city was defended by a Client Ruler and a eastern skirmisher, and while I was quite concerned, they made no effort to attack me. I suspect that the occasional gift of money, and not sending spies or troops onto their land has made the difference.

As Epeiros, about 5 seasons into the game I agreed to become a protectorate of Rome. At the time I held Taras and Rhegion on the peninsula. It was easily 20 years until this arrangement ceased (I sacked Capua) and they didn't even send spies to me in the meantime.

Same thing with the Maks, I decided to abondon Greece and go into Asia Minor, letting KH take my cities one by one. Following the fall of all cities bar Pella in Greece, I agreed to become a protectorate of KH. Once more, complete security from attacks.

Its very pleasant when things like this take place as the AI usually tends to be very unreliable. Not sending spies or troops onto their lands, and regular gifts seem to make a large difference.

Anyhow..we seem to have derailed the thread somewhat...

[Apgad]

They have never hinted at betrayal, and often stand before my cities and defend them from the now barbarous Makhedonians.

The optimist says that you're safe forever.

The pessimist says that you're due.

The realist says beef up your garrisons, just in case!

Are they your buffer state, or are you theirs?

[PershsNhpios]

They are my buffer state from the Roman expansion, and I have the greater power and influence in our agreement all the same, however I send them no gifts of money, only offers of attacking and reducing the Koinon occasionally.