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frogbeastegg
09-28-2004, 15:51
Guide.

The_Emperor
10-04-2004, 10:55
Ok the Greek cities have it tough, but here is what i did in the opening stages.

In Sicily your city will be attacked by Carthage on almost the first turn, but can be defeated in a sally if you lure them to your defences.

You will need to train up as many men as you can here, because once Carthage is done, the Scipii will also be on your case as well, and they are tougher in my experience.

But all of this is a distraction from the main event, which is to take back Greece from the Macedonians, so develop up in Sparta with yet more Hoplites and then send out an army to that narrow strip of land just North of Athens and slap down a fort there, this will cut off any Macedonian reinforcements to the city north of Sparta you should besiege and capture... From then on you should move on to liberate Athens and a good portion of mainland Greece from Macedonian rule.

Sicily will be a major battleground for many years, but should you take Messana from the Scipii, you will seriously weaken Rome's efforts against you there. The Carthaginian side of the island should also be easily taken after that. (just remember to keep an army away from Etna)

If you have any cash bribe the rebel army near Rhodes into your faction and take the city and get a trade agreement going with the Selucids.

While the Romans will keep on comming at you (they are lovely like that) they will eventually run out of steam in their invasions. Especially once you have Sicily and you manage to kick the Brutii out of your area... Also do not underestimate the positive effects of a momentary ceasefire with Macedon.

After humiliating their armies time and again I was able to get trade rights from them... This combined with the Temples/Shrines of Hermes and markets produces a real cash cow in some cities.

Cennyan
10-05-2004, 23:19
My tactics where slightly different.

My first move was to send my Sicilian diplomat towards the Scipii and forge a trade agreement (They'll still attack you in a turn or four). Then did the same to Carthage. I tried bribing both but was unsuccessful. I built a dock, built a ship, then sacked the city and moved my troops out abandoning the provence. (You are going to lose this provence unless you spend a good portion of your resources on it in the first 10 - 15 turns).

Once I had my armies safely on the Greece penisula I went to work claiming Corova and Athens. At the same time, my Rhodes army was building up for five turns or so and was then sent to take the rebel controlled cities on the main contenant. Exterminate the macedonian population. You will end up with almost no revolts for the next 100 years or so provided you keep decent generals and 3-4 troops in each settlement and with such high morale, you're able to tax at very high and each settlement will be a gold mine. You want to get Corinth, Athens, Sparta, Halicarnassus, Rhodes, and Pergamum. Leave Larissa alone for the time being, you'll need the troops elsewhere very soon...

Eventually the Brutti will be tasked by the Senate to invade Thermon and Apolloinia...You need to have an army in nearby Corinth (or an army you can move) for this phase. Without forces, the Romans will have four - five cities from which to build troops and will make your life much more difficult. I immediately struck out and took Thermon, I also took Apollonia but simply sacked and abandoned it (just wasn't worth keeping really). The goal here when you fight these battles is to kill off the Roman generals. They're going to send one of there best and brightest (I had to fight a 6 star faction heir). Kill him off and their faction is majorly weakend. Within the next five or six turns (if you didn't already), you should have spy's in Croton and Tarentum, and as soon as you see the troop sizes are small, invade the romans. I did this around Turn 20 or so. If you're lucky (as I was) you'll be able to wipe out their faction completely at this point.

Sack both cities completely, exterminate the population and destroy every building (after you've retrained all your troops), teaching those dirty romans to stay on their side of the sea. You'll see the Scippii will remove some of their attention from Carthage and point it at these cities. By the time they do, you need to have both cities sacked and on a boat back to Greece. The Scippii will have to battle the rebels which will weaken them...after they take one or both cities, bring you're army back and lay the smackdown on the Scipii troops to. Once you do this, the two cities will be controlled by rebels for several turns.

At this point I turned my attention to the north...finishing off the Macedonians in Larissa and Thessalonica (Those guys had the plague :( ). By this time, the Thracians and The Secluded Empire will begin getting froggy. Defeating them will require a large navy, so focus on shipyards. Once you clean out the macedonians and Scipii, you really wont have too many enemies so focus on building that navy instead of building troops. Keep two medium - large armies...one in Larissa / Thessalonica and one in Halicarnassus or Pergamum. While clearing the oceans lay the smackdown in Sardis (Secluded Empire) and Clear out the Thraceians up to Byzantium. You don't have to wipe them out, choice is yours. I made peace and eventually got them to turn on Darcia by giving them back Byzantium after I began my move on the other roman cities. Make friends with the Parthians so that you have you're flanks covered by an ally. Try and keep good relations with them for as long as possible.

At this point, sit and build...build build build. Try to keep your military as low as possible without sacrificing too much defense. Roman troops are particullarly tough compared to Greecians in the early game, however after the Roman Reformation event, you should be spouting some huge cities and pumping out upgraded troops which will do nicely against the romans.

You'll find that the romans, in their effort to effectively build their empire, have left their backdoor open to invasion. Their biggest cities will be virtually unprotected, you want to take them out as quickly as possible, crippling their economy and troop building abilitiy. I recomend taking Sicily first, exterminating the populace, then take Rome and the Julii starting cities. I kept pushing the Julli out till I got to the mountain choke point in Arretium and left two armies there in ambush. From there, I moved my Sicilian armies (aftering repairing the city, retraining troops, and four turns of troop building) to the Carthage Theatre.

A lot of people will have objections to exterminating, however there's one thing that plays an important role here. When you disperse the population of a settlement, those in their home cities / territories are more likely to revolt than those sent to foreign cities. While once or twice will have no effect, you're going to be taking over about 10 Roman Cities in 10 turns. If you enslaved, you're looking at roughly 1000 + romans in every roman city and that is not good. You'll have to spend far too many resources trying to keep the peace in this region....The only good Roman is a Dead Roman.

From this point it's up to you...continue taking on the Julii in the former gaul territories and / or the Scipii in Africa, or focus on Darcia to get your 50. Darcia will be less likely to revolt as it will be closer to you're capitol, but it's just soo much fun killing romans.

Cennyan
10-05-2004, 23:26
One other note....

The hardest thing about playing this faction is going to be winning the early battles. Sadly, the Greeks don't get any decent cavalry in the early game. Our first cavalry are skirmishers. As a result, we have to rely mainly on very slow moving pikemen and archers to do most of the damage. My biggest problem in the early game was losing sieges and battles because the time ran out. I ended up making an archer heavy army and just pelting the general from outside the city, then rushing en masse on the city square, skirmishing back towards the pikemen moving up.

Colovion
10-06-2004, 02:01
The biggest thing I can suggest when you go up against Macedon is to form your Phalanx units in DEEP formation - at least 5 or 6 deep. Make sure you have your flanks/rear covered as well because you haven't many good cav units. I took over the entire Greek Penninsula with mainly Hoplite units only boltered by some Cretian archer mercs (which are indespensible in the early game) and perhaps some Militia Cav. Sometimes by the time you get to Larissa or anywhere north of that area you will encounter the plague. Build Sewers and Public baths ASAP in all northern provinces to counteract the spread of it - losing a couple family members totally cripples your Family Tree if you dont' watch out.

-Try to make nice with the Selucids and Pontus as well as all of the eastern powers until you can consolidate yourself to the Greek penninsula. An alliance with the Selucids is a great buffer zone between yourself and any possible enemies in the east.
-make sure to have naval supremacy - you're surrounded by water and every province you have is a naval port - use it!
- use your naval supremacy to subdue the Egyptians if they get too out of control (they will). If you can get an alliance that is better unless you're geared on Conquoring that incredibly rich area ;)

Armchair Athlete
10-06-2004, 03:26
For your cavalry needs the province east of Pergamun (Galatia, city of Ancyra) has mercenary Sarmatian Cavalry. They have very good charge (15) and reasonable attack and defense values. They are about on a par with Macedonian cavalry. The rebels in this area are quite weak, (2 naked fanatics and one peasant) and Pontus usually ignore this city to go for Nicomedia. Take your family member from Pergamun and hire some mercenaries along the way (in your province you can hire cretan archers, rhodian slingers, mercenary peltasts and merc hoplites) and take this city. It has a very small population, but you're there for the mercenaries mainly (you can also hire some exp 2 barbarian infantry). Its reasonable for money making too (about 500 per turn) however you cannot build a port so it misses out on the big bucks.

EDIT - The Sarmatians dont appear very often, so take good care of them when they are available for hire. barbarian cavalry mercenaries appear much more frequently near Ancyra, but are not as good (still better than Greek cavalry though). Sarmatians also appear in the Pontic provinces and I think Armenia.

Sir Moody
10-06-2004, 10:53
Personally as the Greeks i follow 3 Simple Rules
1) i let the enemy come to me - the Greek army is inheriently Defensive so if you dont make any agreesive attacks and instead intice enemy armies to attack you - your on the road to victory
2) Present a Solid Front - you dont want a single gap in your lines and if you cant defend you flanks with cav or mercs bend the hoplites into a horse shoe - this in itself is devestating during defences as the enemy has nowhere he can slip in behind you and will alwayse be facing at least one unit
3) If under seige dont wait Sally forth - the Greeks lack a solid wall defence so unless you can destroy all the ladders and towers before they reach the wall (highly unlikely) your gonna need to hit them before they hit you - with the Romans this works even better as they rush to the walls torepulse your attack.... before you make it which puts them in a world of hurt and you can sit inside the walls until ure archers run out of ammo then move on out

On the Campaign map there are again some simple stratgies to Greek Domination (the Greeks have the potential to outstrip the Egytions in power in the early game so if you can keep it going the momentum will rush you to end game)
1) unite Greece and Smash the Macedonians - this is relativly easy if you move fast and take Athens and Corinth before they know whats happening
2) once Greece is behind you comes the next stage and this is where you can split and take your own path - your choices are simple you can move to the rich east where pickings are easy and ull make even more than u allready are (with all of Greece im making a mere 15k a turn which is great for the early game) OR and this is the choice i urge - you deal with those Irksome Romans before they get the marius reforms. If you Counter the incoming Romans and then push your way back round the North of itally and down you can smash them one battle at a time - so long as you arnt overly agressive this should be easy (remmber Defensive is the Way to victory move into positions where the Romans have to attack you)
3) Once you either control the majority of the East or have crushed Rome then how you procede is up to you - personally i went for egypt but the Northan barbarians are probably a good choice too

Army makeups are easy
1) Build hoplites as you main Assualting (well i meen if you follow the defensive stratagy like myself the armies that move on the campaign map) they seem to be better in the open battles than the Armoured relatives
2) For every 4 hoplites build 1 Archer (remmeber when using them to stop them shooting once the enemy is at ure wall of spears)
3) for every 2 archers build one Cav (this is optional most my armies dont have anything like that much cav(some none at all))
4) for Cities defences build armoured hoplites - while they seem to be worse than hoplites in the field they are MUCH better on the walls
5) Make extreme use of mercs - the Greek army lacks the agressive power of the other nations so you need a god solid attack force from time to time use any barbarian Merc you come across

if you follow these rules you can emulate Alexander in no time

Colovion
10-09-2004, 04:32
I find an interesting way to succeed as the Greeks is to not stretch yourself thin trying to combine your provinces too early. Wait and build up your troops in each of your cities. This is much more difficult to defeat for the computer as they will have huge armies in a few cities instead of many cities with only a few troops per. Start by building up Sparta and advance on Macedon through Corinth, Athens, Larissa etc... Thermon may be tough to hold onto because it is kind of blowing in the wind. Build up a large amount of phalanx units to bolster all of those skirmishers. If you can use the Skirmishers as a "hit and run" tactic on the enemy as they appoach - every bit helps.

Tibilus
10-09-2004, 05:41
Ok I must have lost my brain?? But I cant seem to pick anything else other than, Julii, Brutii, scipii, Gaul, Bitrs, Carth, Germans????

Thanks for any help on that?

Lord_Winter
10-09-2004, 09:50
For some reason I had huge amounts of money a few turns into the game say mabye five six or so and I bought Athens and recommend everyone else to do the same...since it spares a lot of time and perhaps more then a few soldiers to the real war with the macedonians...

sapi
10-10-2004, 05:23
you can only play as factions that you dealt a killing blow to in a previous campaign. Just kill the greeks and they will become playable

Raizen
10-10-2004, 06:29
I don't know if that's always the case, sapi. I only knocked off Brittania, Dacia, and some others, but I can still play as the Gauls, Germania, etc.

Sinner
10-11-2004, 13:32
If you win the whole campaign you unlock all the playable factions, not just those you actually destroyed.

Devastatin Dave
10-12-2004, 09:29
I'm playing the Greeks right now and LOVING IT!!! Those Spartan Hopilites are the shiznit. Can the Greeks get elephant units? Just wondering considering the Greeks in history did have elephant units.

The_Emperor
10-13-2004, 11:14
No Elephants for the Greeks Dave, and their Cavalry isn't much cop really (though Militia Cav is really useful, just like Numidians or Auxiliary cav)

If you want Elephants I think you need to be Parthia, Carthage, or the Selucids. or have many family members running around the Elephant lands hopling to get a unit of Merc Elephants.

Shottie
10-19-2004, 00:30
I hate to get off topic but I can only play as 3 factions. How can I get other factions to play? Im used to MTW where I can pick what faction I want to play.

eeyoredragon
10-19-2004, 09:40
Click the link below to download the All Factions Mod (or you can complete the campaign with one of the Roman Factions):

Clickety-click (http://www.twcenter.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=10074)

Young Belisarius
10-21-2004, 21:21
i never lost syracuse, despite it's isolation. in fact syracuse was like my impregnable castle, despite carthage and scipii attacking me. all i did was put save my archers, and hastened my way to build a range so i could build more.then the rest is just making more hoplites. and my city was never conquered.

TN[ KrAzY!
10-21-2004, 23:58
ive never lost syracuse either, let the romans and carthaginians attack you then when theyve wiped themselves out on your defences move out of the city and capture their 2 towns. My biggest problem with the greeks has been diplomacy, absolutley no1 will ally with me at all even if im winning most of my battles or offer them REDMAN CHEWloads of cash still no1 will ally, i get plenty of trade aggreements, even factions like the pontus who im continually wiping the floor with will not even accept a ceasefire, any suggestions?

Jeanne d'arc
10-22-2004, 12:24
ive never lost syracuse either, let the romans and carthaginians attack you then when theyve wiped themselves out on your defences move out of the city and capture their 2 towns. My biggest problem with the greeks has been diplomacy, absolutley no1 will ally with me at all even if im winning most of my battles or offer them REDMAN CHEWloads of cash still no1 will ally, i get plenty of trade aggreements, even factions like the pontus who im continually wiping the floor with will not even accept a ceasefire, any suggestions?
Make alliances with factions that have common enemies as u have.Make sure u watch them closely and if they send troops in to your teritory then they are going to attack u, use diplomats to cement the alliance with bribes.
Best chanche on a succesfull alliance :
-faction u want alliance with is at war with one of your enemies
-faction u want alliance with is far away from your borders

D. Boon's Ghost
10-22-2004, 12:53
Make alliances with factions that have common enemies as u have...

Right; this is how I survived the initial attacks. Macedon allied itself with two Roman factions, Thrace, and Parthia before starting in on taking over Greece. As I was too busy defending Syracuse from the Scipii and Carthage factions, I needed to get my natural enemies off of my back; mainly Macedon, Thrace, and Brutii. I managed this by becoming allies with Parthia, which immediately caused Macedon and Thrace to make peace with me.

I ended up never having to worry about Macedon, as they headed North to take part in the land-grab up there while I weathered the Scipii storm in Sicily.
If it were not for that initial deft diplomacy in Asia Minor, I would have been doomed.

HopAlongBunny
10-22-2004, 13:52
I think I have to second the "no one will ever ally with me" comment.

Played a short campaign and the only alliance I ever got was with Egypt...about 2 turns from the finish.

Syracuse? I didn't even realize it was mine until Scipii invaded ~:eek: I pretty much handed it over and concentrated on building Greece; kudos to those who manage that trick, I bet it shortens Rome's lifespan a great deal :bow:

Sacking Brutii cities in the south was a great help; they never recover and the fleet/army you build to do it will keep Rome off your back for a long time. One unexpected result was a long solid alliance between Carthage and the Romans :duel:

Thank you for all the helpful pointers here; made things much easier ~:grouphug:

D. Boon's Ghost
10-23-2004, 15:03
... I bet it shortens Rome's lifespan a great deal...

Perhaps not all of Rome, but the Scipii never had a chance. It seems like their entire strategy consists of storming Sicily in general, and Syracuse in particular. If the player can hold onto their slice of the island, it seriously hampers the Blue Ones to the point where they can do nothing but wait for their demise.
I do admit, though, that it was the hardest thing I've gone through with this game (so far). If I had not made peace with Macedon and Thrace, I would have been unable to focus on the defense of Syracuse.

The_Emperor
10-25-2004, 12:19
Ok my Greek campaign is really rocking now...

The greeks get a massive amount of income from Temples of Hermes and all those lovely provinces in mainland Greece. Also build temples of Nike in Syracuse and Sparta to give your Spartan Hoplites Air Max running shoes and a healthy experience bonus, which will make them awesome!

Taking Sicily is devastating to Rome, the loss of Messana cripples the Scipii, who annoyingly land forces turn after turn to try and recapture it. Sicily makes for a great naval base allowing you sink Rome's fleets with impunity.

I allied with Thrace and we double-teamed Macedon into the ground. After plonking down a few forts to defend the mountain passes I made two massive invasion forces and crossed into Italy. I was able to bully the Brutii into giving me a massive wad of money and a temporary ceasefire with an "accept or we will attack" demand with a huge army standing outside their Capital, which was garissoned by a puny force.

A second army attacked the Scipii, but ended up dealing with SPQR arriving to try to break the Siege of Caupa.

Following the defeat of the Scipii, they took Rome without a fight after eliminating the Senate's main army. The Julii will be more of a problem, they will send numerous forces to try to recapture Rome.

Interestingly Thrace have now broken our alliance, so now I have to deal with the Julii as a last Roman remnant and then turn my attention to Thrace.

sapi
10-30-2004, 06:41
In my campaign the roman factions just wouldn't go away, so i landed a full army stack in italy and, 3 turns later, owened the brutii territory. about 5 turns after that, the brutii and scipii are dead. The romans just don't keep enough armies in italy:)

Xaron288
11-03-2004, 22:13
In my campaign the roman factions just wouldn't go away, so i landed a full army stack in italy and, 3 turns later, owened the brutii territory. about 5 turns after that, the brutii and scipii are dead. The romans just don't keep enough armies in italy:)

The same thing happened in my campaign. I destroyed the Brutii fleets, so they were unable to quickly send troops to reinforce Croton and Tarentum, which I conquered easily in a few turns. Pre-Marius Roman units just don't compare to Greek armored hoplites. :bow:

eeyoredragon
11-06-2004, 02:47
One short note on defending your cities (of course I'm talking about stone walls ye nitwits ):

ARCHERS!!!

With 1-3 of these lovely guys you are "practically unbeatable" (but when I think about it, you are unbeatable...) as the enemy will stand with their nose in their arse just outside the walls and becoming sitting ducks. My archers are killing 200-400/assault. Take 3 units of optional hoplite unit, and get ready to kick some serious roman butt!

:charge: :charge: :charge:

Maltz
11-07-2004, 07:42
Greek cities are a little like Carthage that its starting territory are scattered around the sea. War with multiple enemies are unavoidable, but the strong economy should make things easy. While there are certainly better approaches, this is what I did at the beginning 3 years:

1. Merge Macedon early on

I combined troops from Sparta & Thermon, plus some bribery to get rid off Macedon early on. This way, I can concentrate on the Romans as soon as possible. In my VH/VH game Macedon was gone on turn 6 and I believe it is possible to make it in 5. By the way, all Macedon towns are greeks, so there is no cultural penalty.

One good thing about playing Greek is that "Greek culture" is very popular in the era, making the conquest easier with lower cultural penalty in new conquered cities, as well as actually bribing Greek units into our military pool from our friendly or unfriendly neighbors.

2. Romans & others

Romans come very soon. Brutii landed close to Thermon and Scipii launches attack to Syracuse. I managed to sneak attack the Scipii town, but soon faced more Scipii army from the mainland.

Since Macedon is gone, I can call back my first army to face Brutii invasion. At the same time, I could slowly eating up Scipii and Carthage in Sicily.

On the east, just north of Rhode island there is a rebel province. The rebel AI constantly pull out the garrison to stand outside the town in my other games. This half stack contains some very good range units such as Crete archers ad Rhode slinger - and when you bribe this army they all will join you! I used this army to defeat the Selucid town. This becomes my 3rd army.

***

I am still learning how to use phalanx. So far I find them die too easily (even charged on the spears). If you play a lot of VH, you should know a rule of thumb: 1 vs. 1 = you always lose. A wall of pike means nothing if it is just a series of 1 vs. 1. You always lose.

So if you have an army with tons of hoptile, you don't get a lot of chance of flanking, and you will lose in all of the 1 vs. 1 throughout the line.

Hastati easily eat phalanx because they run 2 times faster than hoplites lowering their spears. I feel that I am constantly dodging field battles. I actually expand not through phalanx, but through bribing money and Crete archers / Rhode slingers shooting down whatever on the street.

If you enjoy "exicting battlefield" I would recommend to try Carthage or the barbarians, or lower the difficulty down so the phalanax are not just for good look.
~:)

sapi
11-07-2004, 08:38
It is a known fact that phalanxes are bugged on vh battle settings - the enemy can defeat them with a frontal charge!

Zorn
11-07-2004, 22:31
Just a couple of thoughts from my recent game (vh/vh):
Keep Syracuse. 6 Stacks of Archers on the wall can beat anything the scipii can send at it.
Usually they attack with 2 ladders, a ram and tower. It takes two archers to burn down a tower. It comes down to luck. Sometimes it burns down far away from your walls, sometimes some romans can climb up. Don`t get nevous, that means just that a lot of romans will die in the collabing tower, the half dozened that made it to the wall can be beaten even by archers.
Leave the ram alone. Usually your towers will destroy it - if not, just the better. Form all your hoplite units in a killing circle behind the gate. If the romans pour through, they will be stalled in a ring of spears, with burning oil raining on top of them. That should kill and/or break them. I write should, because in so far 5 sieges the romans only once managedto break the gate. A single unit of princeps stood the before the gate, facing said ring of spears and burning oil and arrows from above... they routed right before entering the atehouse. well, who can blame them?
The only problem are ladders. They are very quick, and because of the dead angle at the feet of the walls the are safer for te attacker than siegetowers. So every archer unit that doesn`t try to light a tower has to concentrate on units carrying ladders. In my games, usually a dozened Romans made in on my walls. I had some Peltast up there. In such close quarters they fight as well as hoplites, but are better because they can kill at least a little from afar.
Let the scipii bleed out in sicily.
Now, that was the easy part, defending your western colony.
Defending your eastern homelands is tougher.
I was attacked by the bruti (expected) the macedons (expected) bur on top of that, the julii were obviously bored an decided to join in too. So in turn 5 my first city was attacked by a huge bruti force backed up by a large juli force. I had put my faction leader in and my starting unit of spartan hoplites. The romans just carged in. I decided not to try to defend the gates. Well, actually I did. I really tried, but those peltast drove my nuts. of my 5 units, only 2 were atually able to fire over the walls. the othes would just stand there, or make an attempt to walk right out of the gate. At the same time, the enemy velites would fire over the wall all the time, mocking my incompetent troops. After 3 reloads I decided to change my strategy and concentrated on holding the street to the central square. My Spartans killed aone bruti genral unit, kiled every one exept the general of the second, and killed the juli general. the cretan archers fired volley over volley in that incredibly crowded alley - inflicting horrible casualties too. hwever, my other units sucked, and the romand outnumbered me 3:1 , so I finally lost the square, my faction leader and every unit exept my cretan archers, wich I tried to evacuate. While the winning countdown was running, a single man attacked the archers while they were sneaking away - the sole surviving bruti general. His courage was enormous, but even he couldn`t defeat an hole unit.
After all, I lost my leader and killed 3 roman family members (I suspect 2 of them to have been leaders too). A nice tradeoff for losing a city you can`t hold anyway.
But now, macedons, brutii and julii combined forces and besieged Sparta.
The Macedons attacked twice. Again I decided not to defend the walls, but hold the street to the center.
I put a Phalanx, so that it copletely blocked the street. Than I pu a second on the exact same spot. then a third and a forth. Four Phalanxes i each other - a forrest of spears. The battle in short: 6 full units of light lanciers and a general unit charged right in. You cannot believe the slaughter. there was a mountain of dead horses. Both times.
Well, the Julii finally got troubles with the gaul and called their army back, and the Brutii just waited long enough with their attack until I had my stone wall build. Then they suffered the same fate as the scipii.
Now, after years and years of defending, the enemies are weak enough that I can slowly claim back hellas.

So actually, the main advice I can give you for sieges with greeks: If you have stone walls, don`t worry. Let your archers do the job.
If you have wooden walls don`t try to defend them, just concentrate on blocking the street. Put multiple Phalanxes in each other if you do so ( that might be a bug or at least an exploit. But after I have seen a general unit cripple a Phalanx in a frontal assault I am more than willing to give the AI a taste of it`s own medicine).

Mr Frost
11-12-2004, 04:25
...but those peltast drove my nuts...
Your nuts are motorised and have wheels ?!? How did they get the keys ?




My Greek Cities game has been interesting . I struck Macedon on the second turn and took Macedonian each city in turn {bribing a few times} untill I had destroyed them {I'm doing the same to Thrace now whist maintaining an aliance with their enemies Dacia : I'll give them the last Thracian city to help keep them strong against Rome and as a buffer to Scythia} .

The Interesting part is how I seem to have managed to Neutralise the Romans without even having a single war with them .
On Sicily I chose to build Syracuse as a Military production centre {I figured it would have to fight a war on its' own} and imediatly sold maps and trade right to Scipii and Carthage whilst building up an army steadily of Hopilites and Mercenary Missiles .
I noticed Scipii chose to try and Take the Carthaginians first {not sure why , but I might have looked too strong for his available forces and I think the Carthaginians attacked or otherwise provoked them} and not wanting to let Scipii get another city to increase their strength against me , I sent my Diplomat to see if I could bribe them . Well , they were either two expensive or unbribeable-Faction leader or Faction Heir {I can't remember which now}- but I then sent my bag man ~:cool: to Messana and the Scipii apparantly had some kittens and quit the seige to race back to their Sicilian base . That gave me the idea to see if I could play head games with them , and apparantly I can .
It is now winter in 249 B.C. and Cathage and the Scipii still have their starting Cities {they fought only one big battle that left a marker and Scipii won it} , I have a Ring of three forts with held each by just a single Militia Hopilite unit each blocking my border from their armies {they will have to go through them , and the Scipii are so broke they won't be getting any artilery for a long time yet} plus a big buff army of my own {8Armoured Hopilites , 4 Merc Peltasts , Peltast , 2 Cretian Archers , 1 Archer , 4 Hopikites , 2 Merc Hopilites , 2 Militia Cav , 2 Greek Cav , 1 Samnite Merc -there were some there historically so I modded it , 2 Ballistas and 4 Militia Hopilites for garrison duty and Both my Faction Leader and a promising young family member} which easily outclasses what the others present there {Scipii are obviously out of money} and whist I could take that Island in a number of ways it is so dammed interesting messing with them like this .
I think that by showing a lot of {well armoured} teeth , you can convince the Scipii to try Carthage {and Carthage to try Scipii} first . The *take you hardest troops and stand in their face* method seems to convince them to leave your territory at the start if you make sure to get a big bruising line of Hopilites and Mercenaries .

The Brutii I have also kept at bay with a combination of helping the Dacians {alliance and smashing the Thracians when they attacked Dacia} whom have taken territory up to the Dalmatian coast and intimidation from a hard fullstack army with a spy in it to prevent bribery . The Brutii only own Epirus {town is Apollona} and are obviously as strapped for cash as the Scipii , and the Gauls seem to have managed to keep the Julii hemmed in except for Liguria {Segesta} .

This is setting up to be an interesting game ~D .

For those who must know , I play on normal level : its' only a game {I consider computer games to be more like television than worthy challanges , plenty of the latter in the real world} and frankly , winning a game on I'm too sexy/I'm too sexy level doesn't mean a great deal in the real world to me and includes some anoying "gamey" elements to beef A.I. that ruin my immersion . If I want challange , I step outside where real life has them in abundance with actual and genuine rewards for success {though P.V.P. games -WWIIOL is my favorite- can provide challanging opponents , it cannot keep my attention solely on challange given it is still but a game ; it is only able to keep my interest as a diversion/entertainment} . Its' just a game . A very , very good game , but still just pure entertainment for me .
Some players have a bad habbit of deriding any whom don't play "I'm too sexy/I'm too sexy" level . They should grow up and show some character {that is good character , not chrulish nor childish character} and simply be happy with they having it there way and others having it how they might wish .
I'll demonstrate the correct attitude for them : ~:cheers: you do it your way , Ill do it mine .
What I have done might not work on Very Hard/Very Hard level {the A.I. gets a +7 to its' units attack stats , thus generally has statistically stronger armies evertime if they are even close to yours in size , which would probably make it decide to attack you from the getgo} , though on Very Hard/Normal Level it might {your army would , built up strong enough , be stronger than theirs' and likely deter attack : note , Phalanx units can kill elephants fast if facing them in formation , thus could likely be considered stronger by the A.I. than you might were you facing Phalanx with Elephants} .
Some might like to try it and see . ~D

D. Boon's Ghost
11-12-2004, 17:34
While I do agree that vh/vh is far too much for me, Mr. Frost, I recently moved up to h/h in my current Greek Cities campaign and it's like night and day. I feel that the battle adjustments to the AI on Hard makes up for the almost complete lack of AI generals that you experience on every difficulty level.
I've been having a devil of a time from the mid-game on; bogged down on 2 of my 3 'fronts' to the point where I am starting to get nervous (in the context of a video game, of course - heh).

* Egypt and Rebels simply refuse to allow me to pass/hold on to Tarsus; the area is scattered with historic battle markers to mock my lack of progress. The first time I occupied Tarsus, rebels kicked me out after I occupied them. The second time, the peasants got snooty after I enslaved them. Right before I saved, Egypt seiged the city with 1700 men (probably all axemen) against my garrison of 300 after first taking my fort that was guarding the mountain pass to the northeast. I'm telling you, the next time I take that place over I am burning the sucka to the ground! ~;)
* Carthage 'allowed' me to capture their capital and the two cities to the South of them (sorry, I'm a geographic ignoramous), only to overthrow me from Carthage and the city below it once they bumped off Numidia. The lone city I hold onto in Africa had just turned blue on me, even though it's fully garrisoned and it is set to Growth. 3 attempts at getting a Governor to them has been rebuffed by three separate naval powers; as such, I am contemplating striping the place and pulling out at the first signs of pitchforks and hungry torches.
* The Italian creeps have been gracious enough to allow me to crush them into the pavement, but those darned Ju Ju beans are giving me trouble in what was once the Gaul/Britannia territory in Europe. The Senate is long gone, their Scipii and Brutii cousins off visiting Hades, and yet Caeser's kids sit in their cafes - eating Bavarian pretzels and laughing at my slouth-like crawl in converting them to the ways of Socrates. How rude.

The main problem with Greece, as has been pointed out, is that their one Super Unit; the Spartan Hoplite, is a turtle that refuses to breed anywhere but in Sparta (duh) and Syracuse. Keeping up with the Jones' in the naval department is iffy at best (on Hard) - so ferrying those turtles from the two points is a slow process that involves years worth of port jumping.
I thought holding onto Syracuse on Medium was a key to victory; on Hard, it's the key to survival.

In my last M/M campaign, once I took the Italian boot the game was over; mop up time all the way. In this current H/H one, the game has just begun.

Mr Frost
11-13-2004, 12:42
...The main problem with Greece, as has been pointed out, is that their one Super Unit; the Spartan Hoplite, is a turtle that refuses to breed anywhere but in Sparta (duh) and Syracuse. Keeping up with the Jones' in the naval department is iffy at best (on Hard) - so ferrying those turtles from the two points is a slow process that involves years worth of port jumping.
I thought holding onto Syracuse on Medium was a key to victory; on Hard, it's the key to survival...


Yeah , I'm going to have to mod in some pornographer units to get those Spartans thinking about horozontal folk dancing with women by crickey ! ~D

McDoogle
11-24-2004, 13:45
I abandoned sicily once i built a navy. it is time and resource consumng.

you have to be aggressive. you should build traders in Rhoedes and Pergamum. build hoplites in Sparta, i profer armoured holites because they are greater it means waiting but in the long run you will be thankful.

I tend to stick to the one unit, i stick with the armoured Hoplites. they can hold and break any infantry, cavalry and ever chasing archers because of thier shields they take little loses.

I took Cornith, than Athens than Larrisa. i waited 10 turns built forts in all mountian passes, this stopped Macedonia's chance of invading succefully. luckily the plague hit them, i sent in a Diplomat and he was infected, now this was a useful little tool. since he was and any army/town he entered was infected..i sent him into all the Roman cities near me and when he died i sent another and repeated the process..i servely weakened them..

I tried and tried and tred to get a ceasefire with the Romans how ever even after an offer of 100k gold and 3 provinces they wouldnt cave, soo...i trained 10k armoured hoplites... and sacked Rome... now the problem with this is the Roman fleets. i had to gather every boat i owned to attack them succefully, i think the men involved were 1500 (Rome) 2800(Greece) naturally they went home 1000 men short. but they still harried my boats that i used to send my armies over, so after 6 turns i made it.

i took over ancient Persia and destoryed the selecuid empire and Pontus. Egpyt is currently at war with me and unable to defeat my hoplites.

does anyone know how to build Spartian Hoplites?

Watchman
11-24-2004, 21:31
Highest-level barracks in Sparta, AFAIK (or at least the building file mentions something called "hidden_resource_sparta" as a prequisite...). If that doesn't work, it's probably buggy.

Soulitaire
11-26-2004, 16:09
hmmm... I'll have to go check my savegame. If I recall correctly, the barracks of a 12'000 people city is enough. I was able to build them and it's not like Sparta jumps to 24'000 all that fast...


EDIT: It is indeed the case. You need the highest level barracks (at town >12'000) to build the spartan hoplites.

hellenes
11-26-2004, 20:02
Now everyone says that :abandon sicily!
I say NO!!
Magna Grecia (great hellas) should be restored and those stinky barbarians called romans kicked out as the asian mercenary phoenician scums...jk ~D
Turn one: take all the units and the general from syracuse hire the merc hoplites and the peltasts and attack the roman army in Mesana they will be split and by the time that the second army arrives you have killed the pripary and if you are good in the tactic map Messana will be yours in the summer 270
While doing this siege korinth and send your thermon army to the north to take apollonia which will be your sally/kill post facing the brutii...
After securing sicily (the carthies can be yeasily overrolled since you have two cities and they have only one and they dont reinforce it from africa) the money starts to roll in you aim will be securing western asia minor and destroying the Makedonians...

Hellenes

King Azzole
11-28-2004, 00:13
TIP:

Dont know if this was mentioned yet, you should immediately in turn 1 take all your units in sparta and siege corinth. Turn 2, attack the city and take it. Will make a big difference.

jerby
12-26-2004, 17:00
[QUOTE=Colovion]The biggest thing I can suggest when you go up against Macedon is to form your Phalanx units in DEEP formation - at least 5 or 6 deep. Make sure you have your flanks/rear covered as well because you haven't many good cav units. I took over the entire Greek Penninsula with mainly Hoplite units only boltered by some Cretian archer mercs (which are indespensible in the early game) and perhaps some Militia Cav. Sometimes by the time you get to Larissa or anywhere north of that area you will encounter the plague. Build Sewers and Public baths ASAP in all northern provinces to counteract the spread of it - losing a couple family members totally cripples your Family Tree if you dont' watch out.
QUOTE]

how do you do the 'deep'-part? and why?---> how and why?

Chimpanzee
01-04-2005, 20:33
:help: can anyone give me the code for the Macedon plague. I was being stupid and deleted it when I played Macedon and now I want it back so I can infect all their cities. it is in C:\Program Files\Activision\Rome - Total War\Data\world\maps\campaign\imperial_campaign. Look in the text file descr_events and it is like the second or third one down entitled plague_in_macedonia. I need all 3 lines of code in that group. Thanks. PS I know it happens really early, but I want it for my next campaign.

In addition I find it usefull to only take Theramon, Athens, Corinth, and Sparta in southern Greece, since I can then use the Macedonians as a buffer in the north while I focus my attentions elsewhere. Then I can kill the Brutii at my leasure while Macedon is to occupied with Thrace to bother with me at the moment.

Piko
01-16-2005, 18:37
in my old game as the greek cities i played m/m (only second playtrough) and was able to hold syracuse and take over sicily while i crippled the macedons and sealed of greece i united my two army's and sent them into asia minor keeping my momentum untill a crushing defeat in antioch made me rebuild my forces meanwhile i had invaded greece and faced a scipii/brutii force the brutii had their faction leader and the scipii their main army i killed the faction leader and the scipii took off it was the last brutii so their cities rebelled and became small pickings then the road to rome was open.

dismal
01-25-2005, 23:08
My greek campaign (VH/H) has probably been my easiest so far. About 12 years in and Rome is in big trouble.

The main reason: Money. The Greeks should be swimming in it.

You can pretty much build units and building upgrades constantly in all your cities. You can also bribe rebels - many of whom join your faction instead of disappearing. You can also buy lots of Mercs, particularly Cretan archers.

The challenge is managing 3 theatres simultaneously. Sicily, Greece and Turkey.

I kept Sicily. Both the Scipii an Carthage came right after me (Turn 1 and Turn 2, I think) but both were beaten rather easily on my walls thanks to bad AI. I had a unit of archers (Can't recall if I was given them or if they came with a bribed rebel unit) that I perched above the gate. Then it was just a matter of a couple turns before I had Messana and could crank out 2 units per turn. Lilyaeum fell pretty fast after that. Then I got Syracuse built up to make archers. And I was in complete control of Sicily.

Turkey, I more or less left alone. I took what rebel provinces I could easily and ended up with Ancyra, and two of the western-most provinces. Lots of good mercs to be hired here. I've built this area up economically, used it to send troops to Greece, but done little else there so far.

Greece. I laid off Macedon at the beginning, and they laid off me up to a point. I took Athens and Crete by force and bribed one other province (Salona?) because I happened to have a diplomat walking by and it was cheap. Eventually the Romans mobbed Thermon. First Brutii, then Julii. At one point, I had two full stacks of Brutii and Julii attack at once and lost Thermon. Around this time, Macedon attacked Sparta and things were a little anxious.

I solved the Macedon problem by taking a half-stack of guys from Turkey, mixing in some of my Athens garrison and besieging Corinth. They pulled their siege of Sparta back to defend, and after a series of battles Corinth was mine, followed quickly by Larissa. Macedon is losing territory fast.

I solved the problem with the Romans by dropping a very nice stack in peninsular Italy, which was quite poorly defended. Brutii were eliminated in just a couple turns, Scipii and SPQR soon to follow. It appears the entire might of Rome was focused on taking me out. The Scipii in failing to take Sicily, and the Brutii and Julii in Greece. None of the Roman factions has expanded beyond its original borders.

So, long story short, hold Sicily if you can. It neutralizes the Scipii directly and makes a great launching pad for an early invasion of Italy.

General Tacticus
01-26-2005, 20:47
Just yesterday I finished my first big campaign as the Greekc Cities.

By the end of the game, I held all of the Greek peninsula up to Bylazora, all of the Italian peninsula, most of Gaul and all of Asia Minor and controlled the best part of the Mediterrannean with my fleets. I pretty much exterminated the Seleucid Empire and was starting to reach over to the Iberian peninsula in the west and Egypt to the east, when the game ended, right when I captured my first Spanish city (held by Numidian armies by then) ... baaah...

Now, here's two things I learned from it all.

One, there's only one surefire way to deal with squalor. Every time you take a city, slaughter everybody, especially from the mid-game on, when cities are starting to overcrowd themselves to slow death. Most Roman cities I captured had at least two levels of farming developped and that spells overpopulation like nothing else...

Now, killing everybody once you capture a new settlement won't do anything for the ones you already control (except, of course, that it will not add to their already high squalor by sending even more people to crowd them up). So, sometimes rebellions occur and they can be pretty annoying.

In this case, I found it's best to just withdraw all armies from the rebelling settlement, wait for the rebel army to form, siege the settlement, take it and slaugher everybody in it. Yes, again.

All this creates a situation though- you end up having a lot of people in a few central Huge Towns and many Large Towns with populations of less than 10.000... or even less than 5.000!

Well, the only way to deal with that, is forced immigration. Have every Huge Town produce Peasants, without stop. Then send them over to the smaller settlements you want to populate and disband them inside them. It works, as it's been suggested before, but it's very dull to do, truth be told... In any case, by the time you get to this point, you 'll have left over several lesser troops (like militia hoplites, for example, or regular peltasts) who are just sitting around needlessly garrissoning towns that are far from your borders and munching on your budget. You can disband them too. You don't need them.

Which brings us to lesson learned, number two.

Namely, don't bother building anything but phalanx units. It's a waste of time.

Yup. I know it's heretic, I know we (we as in Greeks... well, not me personally... but you get my point...) lost an empire and then some to the Romans for lack of diversity and flexibility, I know Alexander took over the world with his ingenuity in mixing it up between phalanx and hypaspists and all that... but, still... The naked truth is, in RTW, if you have enough phalanx units, then everything else is simply redundant.

No, you don't need missile troops. They just get in the way. For the first few decades of game time, I kept it by the book and built toxotes and peltasts to go with my hoplites. Well, guess what, after every battle, I found my missile troops in tatters, having accomplished nothing but to cost me their retraining funds... while my phalanx units where all but unharmed. And, usually, victorious, to boot.

Seriously. What do you need other troops than the phalanx for? Well, you need them to keep the phalanxs' flanks protected, as there's very few things that can harm the phalanx face on, so conventional wisdom says. But then, why would you want to keep your precious, vulnerable flanks protected by... well, by anything but more of the best defensive unit type you can have? No, really. Why would you try to guard your flanks from a charge by preatorian cavalry with... what, heavey peltasts? Slingers!? It's suicidal.

As about cavalry overtaking because the phalanx is too slow... well, conventional wisdom, again, says the phalanx can't move to save its' life. Well, it can't, but hoplites don't need to maintain their phalanx formation when they 're manoeuvering. There's a little button in their control pannel that lets you switch formations. As plain spearmen, they can make a dash for it, even from one end of a 16- unit wide line to the other, fast enough to reinforce the line against heavy cavalry (not to mention infantry). I do it all the time. I can show you screenshots if you don't believe me. The phalanx can't run, but the hoplites can. See them run! The Spartans, in particular, look like a gigantic mutated crustacean... ~:confused: (just remember to form them back to a phalanx once they 're where you want them... Oh, and don't forget you can just press "," and "." to wheel a unit- or a group!- any time. They stagger a bit to one side but they make a perfectly ordered rotation).

The only missile troops I use, ever, anymore, is Rhodian slingers. And that's only because I like slings (and it says something that I can afford to have fun flinging stones to peoples' helmets and listening for the "t'clong", right in the middle of battle and win to tell the tale).

Even cavalry is redundant, as long as you play defensive. And, as it has been pointed out, if you play with the Greeks, you should. Even as you slowly work your way to an imperialistic orgy, you still can play defense- just don't attack your enemies' armies. Siege their settlements, so that they have no choice but to sally forth or send troops from outside. At which point, you 're the defender and all you need to do to win the game is pick your high ground, arrange your phalanx in a wide horseshoe and wait for the enemy army to charge you, then rout themselves silly ... hey, it happens to all men...

Erm... OK, on a second thought, do keep a few cavalry units behind your phalanx line. It will really speed the game up. And it's hard to mop up routers with a phalanx...

Oh. And something else... Thracian mercs. The ones with the romphaeae... I never got around to using them yet, but they look cool. They can play the varanguian guard for your phalanxs' Byzantian infantry. The Greeks can really use a good shock troop.

:charge: {Woooo! Look at me, I 'm the Greek Cavalry!!!}

:duel: {Go away! Can't you see we 're in the middle of something??!!}

There. Hope you found it enlightening enough...

RollingWave
02-05-2005, 16:12
In my game i managed to hold on to Sciliy (thx to a little luck ) but lost asia minor to the Pontus as i brought my rhodes troop to the balkans :/

because of that i'm not making that much progress, though i did finally manage to secure sciliy for myself and is slowly pushing north on the balkans (very slow... havn't even taken back Athens yet though i did take the Macidonian city north east of Thermon.)

I think it is wise to either evacuate Asia minor or Sicily... personally I think you should evacuate asia minor instead of sciliy because the Pondus or Seleucid will not likely become super power house usually but the Scipili will if they secure sciliy fast.

You will need to kill the Romans fast obviously....

Milita cav are acturally quiet strong ... espically early on when no one is running around with many archers... they can destroy must infantry on their own.

I think later on if u don't wan to mass merc just mass onager+Archer+ hoplits :P.

Dominic
02-11-2005, 20:27
Hello, I am a Greek and I am not wealthy.

But how can this be?? The story follows...

Well, actually, I've become very poor in my 2nd Greek campaign on H/H. My first was M/M, and in that I was making more money than Zeus and basically rolling over all opposition to spread Stoicism across the world. (It must be so, for Ariston to go out of his way to place a pop-up about his philosophy... RITE?)

I suppose part of the reason is because of v1.2, which takes away the option to sell your pretty little map to other factions for thousands.

I started out my H/H Greek campaign just like my M/M one, immediately storming Corinth and pissing off (and only) the Macedonians on the first turn. By turn 3 I have taken the city, and immediately after Macedon calls for a ceasefire, which was unexpected and I accept. This gives me time to prepare the attack on the rebel city of Athens.

Meanwhile, Sicilly is quiet as the factions there wait in the calm before the storm. And exactly like my M/M game, Carthage is the first to break the peace, and lamentedly, as before they choose to attack me instead of the Scipii. Lamentedly for them, that is. They attack at the worst possible time: After I had built the next level of barracks to obtain regular

Hoplites, but before they themselves have any reliable artillery or missiles. And my lively Syracusean governor has managed to find a band of Cretan Archers while he was out strolling in the woods. With the incredible courage born to the Sons of Helen, I drive out the invaders, after the Carthaginians run the gauntlet of my walls. And arrow towers. And burning oil. And missile fire coming down long narrow roads.

The single greatest difference that v1.2 has made for this campaign so far is that the Hoplite is nerfed. Perhaps it is the higher difficulty from Medium, but even from the front, a charge will make the Hoplites buckle initially, before (and if) they push back and reform the line. They don't creep sideways as much, and they are far less powerful and take longer to beat an enemy unit in front. No more neat lines of dead! They are also now highly vulnerable on the move. If the hoplites are attacked while moving, even from the front, the front ranks will engage with swords, BUT you can tap the Halt key and they will switch to spears and grind away at the enemy as per normal. The deep formation actually works now, because a long thin one will immediately crumple, or they will all switch to swords (typically, if the hoplites can't hold off the enemy with spears only, the first rank will switch to swords but their buddies in the back will keep poking with their spears). I actually like the nerfing, it makes it all seem more natural for some reason. They are still formidable from the front like always, only now they aren't super humans at it. I've lost whole units of hoplites, surging them through broken walls and gates, where previously they could be relied upon to pin the defenders down while the archers do their work and I pile the infantry through the breaches. But, ah, such is war.

In the East, efforts are made to turn Pergamum into a military complex in anticipation of expansion in that direction. I gain an alliance with Pontus but it is not so easy with the Selucids. I take the bother of getting my general off Rhodes and into Halicarnassus because it is hard to be lively on a small island. In my M/M game, Pontus and Selucia went to war, but in this one the Selucids attack Halicarnassus, and fail.

Meanwhile, a few hundred rebels appear around Apollonia after I eventually take that city. My first impulse is to crush the upstarts, then I scout the rebels and saw that they were comprised of Greek units, and in particular, 3 whole units of heavy peltasts. I splurge to get them, and they prove handy later when I march towards Thessalonica and a full stack of Macedonians comes to meet me on open ground. In my previous games, I never used skirmishers, a preference retained from Shogun and

Medieval, but after reading so many good things about them in Rome, I decided that I had to use a few of them at least. I've decided that skirmishers like peltasts are good to have if you have nothing better. They can do heaps of carnage if they throw their javelins into a flank or rear, but that sort of opportunity doesn't come by often. Apparently, the speed with which they fire is demoralizing; a few volleys into an enemy that's pinned down by hoplites is often enough to rout them.

They're the fastest moving infantry, so they are handy for chasing the routing enemy from the field. Thessalonica is as good as mine, and the Macedonians were kind enough to build it up for me. But then, in a huge upset, Pontus breaks the alliance and attacks Pergamum, because, I think, I had accidentally wandered into its territory while exercising my governor. But still...!

With regards with the Scipii in Sicilly, I had hoped that they would stay neutral and keep being nice trading partners (thus, with SPQR and the other 2 Roman families as well). History repeats itself and the Scipii come for Syracuse, instead of the surely weakened Carthagianians, a move that reeks of spite rather than logic. Like my M/M game, I am forced to go to war with the Romans early while having to contend with Carthage, only this time there is Pontus and Selucia as well. But the saga is far from over. THRACE tries to invade Thessalonica, so by the mid-260s I am at war with NINE factions including Rebels. On the plus side, Gaul has become my ally. WHOOPEE! I've never played the Selucids, but it sure feels like I'm playing them. In my M/M game, the Macedonians perished at my hand by this time, and Thrace was probably gone or dying, and I would surely have been sailing for the Romans.

And then the volcano erupts. I had completely forgotten about that. I lose an emissary (will of the Gods, eh?) but soon afterwards, Messana becomes mine.

In the East, things do not go smoothly for me. Pergamum becomes a place where it takes forever to get anything done, rather then my envisioned shining city of hoplites, all thanks to Pontus coming around every now and then to say hello with whole stacks of armies. Instead, Halicarnassus is relatively peaceful because eventually I realized there is a bridge there that can hold off the Selucids with a relatively small force. But by then Halicarnassus is well into economy mode.

The time is around 258. The 9 factions at war with Greece have started going neutral or allying with one another and I dread what's coming next: war on all fronts. I had also completely forgotten about the plague, which starts in Thessalonica around this time and brings things there to a standstill. Sicilly is totally mine, conquered by one general and his sons (I lose a general in Lilybaeum to a charge gone wrong). In my M/M game, I would be rolling over the Romans, to wage war with the Gauls, now, I am struggling to build an economy. I am earning about 10k a turn, which is gone in a flash, and there is also the problem of naval blockades, which take place more often with v1.2. I plan on holding off Macedon and Thrace around Thessalonica, to invade either the Romans or Carthage. I need to enslave largish populations to pump up Syracuse and Sparta to large cities (Syracuse is ahead!) and then I can reap the benefits of Spartan Hoplites. The tale continues...

As a last word, I think the Greek strategy is rather ironically symbolized by its flag, the lightning bolt. Greece's collection of Hoplites are the slowest things on the field, and their cavalry are sadder than the Romans (somewhat moot
because the Romans have historically incorrect powerful cavalry in this game) and the barbarians. Their battlefield tactics emphasize close infantry action, and an advancing battle line, with missile support. Well, I suppose this is true for nearly all factions in general, but Greeks in particular because this is all they can do, and do WELL. Another thing is that you need a rock solid economy going. There are 3 classes of archer; short-ranged skirmishers, units with regular range, and the long range ones. It seems that the Greeks get their long range units long before any other of the factions, through Cretan Archers, which populate all of their starting territories. But because they are mercs, they are expensive. And because of the nature of the hoplite, hoplite armies are incredibly weak on the flanks. The majority of my casualties are from flanking cavalry. So, while the Greeks plod around on the tactical field, on the campaign map they need to be FAST. Whether you use spies or siege equipment, the Greeks need to take the cities as quickly as possible. On open ground they present their weaknessses, but in cities they are unbeatable. I've played Julii, Germania, Britannia, but only the Greeks I've enjoyed so much that I'm doing them twice.

So, like the cockney Greek General says: Now is the time for Greek courage! And always remember: Front Towards Enemy!

AMD4EVER
02-23-2005, 19:52
While Rome wasn't built in a day, Greece can be. I've been playing RTW for about a month now and having beat it once as the Greeks in version 1.1 by year 246, I decided to give it my all to win this game as quickly as possible without cheating. I used no mods and nothing that would be considered cheating. Many times I saved and reloaded, many times I exploited AI weaknesses and flaws, and through it all I only become more and more cheap as far as my victorys went, but it was all legal. My goal was to win in 40 turns or before 250 BC. I actually won by 257 BC.

On to the fun stuff. Here is a map of the direction I took and what year I reached each city.

Final Map (http://www.geocities.com/amd_4ever/Rome/Pics/Map.JPG)

If you want to see my little journal that I was writing while going through this campaign, check out this site.

Journal (http://www.geocities.com/AMD_4EVER/Rome/main.html)

This was all in good fun and I must say I really enjoyed it. I think that it can still be done faster by at least 3 or 4 turns, but I'm not going through that hell again. I spent about 45 minutes to an hour per turn just analyzing everything and going through the battles.

I also want to note that I don't think that any other faction could beat the game as fast as the Greeks are capable of. The Seleucids and Egyptians are probably the next fastest, but I'd say the Greeks have the upperhand due to how spread out they are.

I hope some of you Greeks out there are able to get some use out of this!

RollingWave
03-10-2005, 13:16
As the greeks, the news isn't too good...
1.you start with 5 cities but sepeated in 3 different fronts, non of them are connected save by sea.

2. on all 3 front you are in a 3 way brawl, and on all 3 front you are in the weakest position with little hope of reinforcement anytime soon.

3. your army is vanillia and outdated, you have a one purpose infantry line up, one of the crappiest calvary line up and mediocare at best archery and skrimish line up, the only thing above par is your seige line up. your army is highly defensive in nature.

There are some good news though.
1. you start with rhodes and pretty much any province you own or will own have ports too, meaning you will be pretty good in the money department as long as you can keep ur trade open.

2. you will get seiged a lot, but luckily ur hoplits are extremely good at seige defense. and the AI is extremely retarded in seige assults. (and defense too) you also start with stone walls on ur most dangerous province Syracuse, while u can capture Athens fast which also has a stone wall.

3. wether intentional or not, the hoplits are acturally better than their supposed superior pike counter parts in most sense. as long as you manage to keep them from being flanked they will carve their way through pretty steep odds.

Now, you can choose to give up one front asap, or you can try stay on all 3 front, either way ur first priorty should be acquiring Athens and Cornith to secure ur foothold on the balkans. I highly suggest capturing Athens first, reason being i rather have Cornith jammed between Sparta and Athens then tring to take Athens while the Macedonians counterattack me.Taking Athens before u get into war with Macedonian also mean u have a stone wall defense against any one trying to head south.

On Sciliy and Asia minor I highly suggest massing up at least 6-7 groups of miltia hoplits right off the bat, they will be able to deal with most seige assults for a while, on Sciliy do remember that Messina is on a time bomb to blow, you either take it really quick or you wait till the Volcano goes off before attacking. this sector will be quiet hard fought but luckily at least ur in a good situation to defend it.

After taking Cornith and Athens, i think focus on Sciliy is ur best move, the reason being that if you want to win on the Balkans, the best way to do it is probably by seiging the Brutties hometown and cut off their reinforcements. and securing Sciliy will give u a easy jump right onto the Bruttis heartland.

On Asia minor really take the chaces as they are Presented, it's a loooong way to fight but securing Sardis and Hellenisia will at least give u a relatively good foothold. the other factions there will kill each other eventrually, just make sure u don't become the first victim. if possible sue for peace with the Selucids and/or Egyptians as they are going to give u good trade.

General Carnage
03-11-2005, 23:58
btw Even the 'non-playable' factions can be made playable by editing a little text document.

As regards the Greeks, one word: Spartans

Magraev
03-14-2005, 09:01
Those spartan hoplites are absolutely awesome! When everyone else is "tired" these supermen are "warmed up". I laughed out loud the first time I saw that.

It's a sad day when any one of these demi-gods die since any reinforcements are a long time coming. My present spartan unite is at 2 silver chevrons and are down to 68 men (of 80). 9 of those were lost taking the walls of rome, while the rest of the greek army waited outside...

At the start none will ally with you, but after taking two of the Macedon southern cities, Athens, Crete and the two western greek ones they've started to come around. Presently I'm allied with the gauls, dacians and seleucids and at peace with everyone else except Rome. My theory is that greece seems so weak initially that noone want to ally. Soon I'll be so strong that none will want to ally again, so I'm enjoying this respite.

Sicily is still split three ways, but luckily there have been no war with Carthage. They haven't even been at war with Rome!

Tactically the lack of cavalry is a huge problem. The best bet for a balanced army are probably Sarmatians, but they are a long way from your starting lands (you can get them in Pontus' starting lands though). Be wary of heavy cavalry turning your flanks - if that happens your only hope is a unit of Spartans nearby to turn the tide.

katank
03-15-2005, 04:02
Greeks have a great starting position and capable of sustained expansion in all directions. Their economy can well afford it too.

All out blitz of Macedonians and Romans at start is the best. Beware of missile units though as they can maul your spartans from afar. Shield those form missiles and you are good.

Hoplites are also possibly one of the strongest melee unit at large town level. Patch 1.2 made them not quite as vulnerable to switching to sword combat.

Similarly, turning off phalanx make them as fast as other infantry so it's quite possible to flank with hoplites.

Greek cav just blow and lack of shock cav is the worst part. You are forced to use archer/hoplite combo instead although militia cav is good for chaisng routers, screening infantry advance, and general harassment duties.

scipio the even younger
03-15-2005, 20:17
I FIND THE BEST WAY IS TO GET AN ALLIANCE IN THE FIRST TURN OR SO WITH THE MACEDONIANS and then kick every one out of sicily and make it a huge production isle.
By this time the bruti or scipii will have invaded , with macedoians reppel them and in the same turn try to bribe someone into atackking the macedonians .
Now gather a army that you should have been building in sicily and invade capua, now split your the army from greece and attack both bruti citys.
Hopefully the macedonians r to busy fighting whon ever u bribed to bother u .Anyway as soon as you can assult all citys and keep a small garrison in the bruti towns and move the rest of the army north building forts on the way.This armys job is to hold up the juli.
Now the army in capua should resive renforcments from siicily and attack the senate. With an army full racked up and maybe more and with the juli being held up u should have no trouble in dealing with the senate.
Then just go north and mop up the remains of the juli. by this time the macedoins will have probaly attacked.If u have any armie left go north and round the aegean while if u have a army in sparta attack corith and move north.
u need athens for this to work as it stops the macedonians gettimg reinforce ments. theyll be in a sandwich.then when they have 1 place left offer cease fire and demand huge tribute. if they refuse attack and if they agee attack anyway.after that theres a whole world out there.





Maybe its time to rewrite history.

katank
03-15-2005, 23:15
Sacking Corinth and getting the Statue of Zeus right away is a nice boost. Thessalonica can also become a hoplite factory quickly. Unified Greece is amazingly rich. You can easily take on the Romans and the Macedonians simultaneously while remaining defensive to the Carthaginians.

RollingWave
03-16-2005, 11:28
But katank, I find taking all of the Balkans early on quiet difficult, which is why I usually settle with just taking Athens and Cornith, and then try to gain a firm holding on all fronts first before making the Advance... I find that the best way to weaken the Brutties threat on the Balkan is simply (taking a hint from ur Carthage blitz strat) sail from sciliy to sack their home towns .

On another note, it is very important that you get trade rights with Egypt/Carthage and the Selucids, so you can acturally make use of ur trade bonus, also take Crete when you have some spare men or mone as it is a incrediable money machine once you get ports going. you probably will get into some trouble with the Selucids but you need their trade, espically since you probably wont' be trading with the Romans or Macedonians any time soon, sue for peace with Carthage and Selucids ASAP after taking Sardis and Sciliy.

katank
03-16-2005, 19:04
The balkans are not that bad to take. You can beat Brutii to Apollonia and siege Corinth on the first turn. Ignore Athens and go straight for Larissa and then Thessalonica. With Pergamum force, push for Nicomedia and then Byzantium if Thrace didn't take it already. Rhodes can sit pretty and ship slingers to Italy or take Halicarnassus.

Carthaginian blitz type strategy is good as Italy is often poorly defended but without elephants, it's not as effective. Conventional warfare to sack Messena first is probably better.

Pump out hoplite and use some militia cav to screen infantry advances. Hoplites should have phalanx off unless responding to imminent threat. Take out enemy archers (Macedonians start with 2, Julii and Scipii each with 1) at all costs to save your spartans. Also consider using militia hops as fodder so your more expensive hoplites don't end up being pila fodder.

tibilicus
04-16-2005, 18:24
I now know greece is not that hard to play at all. Im 15 years in got a good hold on Asia minor and will hopefully in the next few turns take the final scipii land on Scily. Luckly for all you greek players even on vh/vh the a.i still charges at your pikes if you get close enough. Try to get rid of the romans quick once they are post marius your dead. Still woried when egypt will come knocking on my door mind. :duel: ~D :bow:

Craterus
04-16-2005, 20:33
PM Romans aren't that amazing. They're not unbeatable but I know there is reason to be worried, just remember, they aren't unbeatable.

I'm in a tough stalemate with the PM Scipii at the moment.

tibilicus
04-17-2005, 10:52
A new tatic i have tried is beat the roman armys with smaller more powerful ones. I went into a battle with 6 armoured hoplites 1 archers and a 1 generel. The romans then tend to get cockey and just through everything at you. Only to realize half way through they should of tried going round the back and flankinf. But hey by that time there to demorolized and peg it.

Craterus
04-17-2005, 21:29
Hey tibilicus, 250 posts and still a junior member??? ~:eek: I'm shocked.

Anyway, as a response to the topic, the Romans tend to be very cocky/stupid (i prefer stupid) and when I faced them they let me pound them with missile cav before they made a move.

pezhetairoi
05-11-2005, 01:30
This is me, establishing my presence here and awaiting the arrival of IliaDN and Franconicus. Let the Greeks begin world conquest soon!

IliaDN
05-11-2005, 08:07
I think I will start this camaign by the end of the week! ~:) ~:cheers:

pezhetairoi
05-12-2005, 00:53
Good to see you Ilia! Start soon! I've already started--from the ultimate in mobility to the ultimate in static warfare! What a change :-D It's going to take me some time to get used to not having any more HA to play around with. And hoplite-hoplite battles are just plain tiring. *yawn*

I've gone on Turn 1, and already Messana has a Greek army on its doorstep, while Corinth has been besieged. I'm not attacking the Scipii, because I'm waiting for them to attack. Hoplite defensive square works wonders at this point in time in the game :-D Meanwhile I'm building up every city except Sparta with basic hoplite facilities, Pergamum will launch attacks on the rebels once it gets its first standard hoplite unit...

Anyone know what to do with Rhodes' army? I'm currently envisioning its army (when built up) heading for Kydonia-Cyrene-Leptis Magna-Thapsus-Carthage, with my Rhodes navy... but I keep getting this nagging feeling it's supposed to be used for more than that.

Was even thinking of a surprise attack on Egypt, but that's just me being insane--Hoplites? against archers and archers? Heh.

roguebolo
05-12-2005, 02:02
Umm...this is way too weird and I was wondering if anyone has ever seen it before. I'm playing my third campaign with the 1.2 patch, this time as the Greek Cities. I press "End Turn" in the winter of 248 BC and the Brutii settlement of Segestica -- which they had left ungarrisoned -- automatically gets transferred to my faction, as if the Greek inhabitants have thrown a rebellion without any encouragement from myself. No bribing or anything -- in fact, I haven't even sent a boat, a diplomat or a spy to that region of the map.

Not only do I inherit this free settlement, but it also comes stock with its own small army -- specifically six full militia hoplite platoons and six full peasant platoons, all with an Experience of 3, Gold Shield Armor Upgrades, and Silver weapons upgrades; I'm not even able to provide these same upgrades to new units at my other settlements at this point in the game.

I have gone back a few turns to make sure I didn't inadvertantly accept a proferred territory in exchange for trade rights or something ridiculous like that, and nothing like that has apparently happened. Yet it consistently gives me Segestica on the same year.

Not to look a gift horse in the mouth, but this is simply too weird. Does anyone know what's going on here?

pezhetairoi
05-12-2005, 03:54
I think I may. It seems that each settlement has a 'founder' line in the descr_strat file. It might have something to do with that, though it's only a hunch. Perhaps you want to see if Segestica's founder is the Greek Cities. If it is, then it probably means there's a time trigger built in somewhere into the game where an ungarrisoned settlement owned by someone else will revert to the founder at a certain date. Sort of like Macedonia founding Cyrene. If it has nothing to do with that, then I can't help you. Meanwhile, enjoy your new units, with their nice upgrades they will be very useful for you.

IliaDN
05-12-2005, 05:17
[QUOTE=pezhetairoi]"Anyone know what to do with Rhodes' army? I'm currently envisioning its army (when built up) heading for Kydonia-Cyrene-Leptis Magna-Thapsus-Carthage, with my Rhodes navy... but I keep getting this nagging feeling it's supposed to be used for more than that. "
Maybe to use it against Pontus and Selucid Empire?
Think I will join you tommorow.By the way what are your campaign settings ( difficulty and unit scale)?

pezhetairoi
05-12-2005, 07:50
I'm playing hard huge, as is my usual practice... just to get the hang of it... are you on vh?

I came to your conclusion this morning in the middle of a history lecture, so i'm shifting Rhodes' army to join the one in Pergamum once I reinforce it with another unit or two of militia hoplites. I'm going to capture all the rebels in Asia, then cross to Byzantium.

Craterus
05-12-2005, 17:40
How about you conquer half of Asia Minor and then send your Pergamum army up to Getae, take that and then meet up with an Aegean army at Tylis, the Aegean army will have just taken Byzantium. And you should own all of Aegean lands. That would be my plan, don't know if it would work well.

I'm starting this campaign tonight or tomorrow night.

IliaDN
05-12-2005, 18:02
Hey, Craterus what will be your settings for this campaign:
difficulty/unit scale.

Craterus
05-12-2005, 18:04
M/M Large probably

Maybe h/m

pezhetairoi
05-13-2005, 01:13
I'm planning on my usual war on all fronts, the Sparta army destroys Macedonia while my Asia Minor army remains in or near Asia Minor... for me I wouldn't send the AM army so far north, leaving Pergamum etc open for Pontus (I don't expect the Seleucids to be attacking yet). I'll take Byzantium, and retreat back to Asia Minor, leaving it as bait for Thrace to retake so that my Aegean army can defeat their armies in the field. Then their settlements will be easy. I want to lure them out of the towns where my hoplites aren't quite so good.

Took Corinth and Messana yesterday in Turn 3, the Scipii are already defanged since they lost half their family members and half their cities but Carthage seems to have some designs on Syracuse so once I turn Sicily white and red (the colours of my Singapore flag! ^_^) I'll turn on the Brutii, so they won't do anything to my Aegean posessions.

Asia Minor army is now merging en route to Nicomedia. The last time I tried to take it with just 2 MH and my pergamum general their 1 MH and 1 Thracian mercs completely took them apart in the confusion of battle, so I shall go at them with many many more MH this time. And 1 hoplite unit, too. AND merc hops.

I'm developing Sparta into an AHop factory, and Thermon will have facilities for building basic hoplites before I turn it into an archer factory. Larissa has stables, I know, so I'll turn it into a Greek Cavalry production city. And there! A triumvirate of soldier cities. I have decided that Rhodes will just gear up to invade Kydonia later, with 2 hoplites and 3 biremes. Hopefully I can get a MOTH there.

I've been learning a lot with Greece, it's a very different experience from the German phalanxes, because they are currently weaker. I was fighting a sally battle at Messana, with the two late aforementioned Scipii family members, and they just broke through my four-ranks-deep hoplites and routed them with a charge. Alright, one of them was the faction heir, fine, but my German phalanxes, when I had played them, were capable of withstanding two general units on one without breaking, without my general behind them.

Also, some observations on the general. Greek bodyguards seem crappier than the Roman ones... any truth in that? I tried a one-on-one with the Roman bodyguard, faction heir to faction heir, and mine lost even though we were both charging straight at one another. Was totally disgusted and reloaded the battle.

Also, my Spartan hoplites, after assaulting the walls of Corinth (mein gott, not a single casualty in engaging the enemy hoplites! Freaky!) and coming down to the ground floor, did not seem to want to go back into phalanx, and also did not want to change their formation from loose back to 'tight' formation. The buttons were just blanked out. Why?

IliaDN
05-13-2005, 10:38
Greetings!
I have finally started Greek Cities campaign on VH/M , huge unit scale.
1 turn: I attack and defeat Scipii near Messana ( killing their both family members), some enemies managed to retreat;
I besiege Corinth and Larrissa and Messana;
In the several next turns I took those cities bribed nearby carphaginians and kill several Scipii and Brutii armies landed on Sicily;
When I came to Appolonia I found out that it is still rebel (Brutii instead of taking it it sent their troops to Sicily!)
Also I had besieged Athens.
Now when Selucids are at war with Egypt I plan to take Halicarnassus(don't remember the right spelling of this name) and their province in Asia Minor;
Also I besieged Tarentium with my family leader spartans 1 unit of hoplite and 1 unit of cretan archers.

Franconicus
05-13-2005, 11:19
Hi friends,

I see you could not wait any longer. All right, I try to join you asap.

I have one suggestion:
1. Should we open a new thread. I fear we are spamming this one!
2. Why not play with the same setup. I like hard/hard/large best.
3. Maybe everybody can explain his innitial plan?

IliaDN
05-13-2005, 17:11
Hi friend.
1. About new thread - maybe we can do one in colluseum?(or the Entrance Hall);
2. I prefer VH/M , because I don't like enemy's soldiers be stronger than mine just because of difficulty level, huge unit scale is just interesting in strategic option;
3. I have already smashed macedonians and Brutii other romans and selucids are to follow them.

Deus ret.
05-13-2005, 19:37
Also, some observations on the general. Greek bodyguards seem crappier than the Roman ones... any truth in that? I tried a one-on-one with the Roman bodyguard, faction heir to faction heir, and mine lost even though we were both charging straight at one another. Was totally disgusted and reloaded the battle.


your impression isn't wrong. I daresay Greek (Macedonian, Thracian etc.) general bodyguards are the weakest in the game because of their stats: unimproved ones have 12 attack and 9 charge (just as Romans), but only 10 defence compared to the Romans' 14. Barbarian ones go at 13-9-13, I think. This is quite annoying since decent general's cavalry would be particularly useful to the Greeks with respecct to their otherwise crappy cavalry --- family members still are the best, but they tend to be unreliable. I once lost a general in a flank charge into a decimated unit of principes involved in a heavy fight with two hoplite units.... just use them way more careful than you would other gens.

a complete stat list of all units (also improved and unimproved gens) is accessible: http://www.totalwar.co.kr/rome/

Craterus
05-13-2005, 21:15
JUst to let you all know, I haven't started a Greek campaign because I thought I'd play on my strengths a bit. Cavalry. Instead of a phalanx/crap cav faction (Greeks), I've gone for a phalanx-good cav faction. Yes, that's right. MACEDON!!!

It was a hard choice between Spartans and Companions, but I concluded to go for the decent cavalry option, balance it out a bit. Royal Pikemen are almost as good as Spartans anyways.

IliaDN
05-14-2005, 12:31
Well some things about my plan:
1. Leave Thrace to be in Campus Getae as my protectorate ( to protect me from Skythia;
2. Conquer Italy and Asia Minor ( now I am struggling there against Pontic armies);
3. To achive total dominance on Balkans.

Craterus
05-14-2005, 12:37
Greeks won't do very well against Scythian HA's at all.I'd try to leave a good bit of space between you and them.

But then again, I've never battled against Scythian AI.

IliaDN
05-14-2005, 12:42
Abut Skythia I have one idea:
I think you remember city with amazons which is situated North from Skythia I wish to conquer it , because it have temple of Aphrodite , and maybe it would be possible to train them there while playing for Greeks.

Craterus
05-14-2005, 13:08
Train what there? I found the Amazon area to be very buggy, but I conquered it. While I was assaulting the city, a grey cloud kept covering the screen. I lost a good amount of men because of that.

IliaDN
05-14-2005, 15:56
Train amazons.

Viking
05-14-2005, 16:22
How do you train Amazons?

Have just conquered Themiskyra in my Scythian campaign, and chariots would be a cool break off from those HAs.

IliaDN
05-14-2005, 16:38
Heh, it just my assumption that you can train amazons the rebel town which is guarded by them , if you are playing the greeks ( because there is temple of Aphrodite , so maybe there is a special case like with spartans).

Craterus
05-14-2005, 16:46
That would be cool. So you can train Spartans up there too?? It's a shame it's so out of the way.

IliaDN
05-14-2005, 16:56
Oh s#%t NO - you can't train spartans there , I just meant that they can also trained only in some SPECIAL place/city , I just wondered if there is possible to train amazons.

Mikeus Caesar
05-14-2005, 17:13
Nah, not possible to train amazons. Pain in the arse to fight against though. Once i had finished conquering the steppes, i got all my leftover mercenaries and a few hoplites, and made a 'discovery channel team', to go exploring. it took 15 god damn years to get there!! and along the way we got ambushed by some chariots, and they were such a pain in the butt in the open field. They just kept running away from my peltast cavalry. Fortunately, i finally got them, but not without losses.

And as for training Spartans, i think it's only possible to train them in Sparta and Syracuse.

IliaDN
05-14-2005, 17:21
A-a-aaaaaa I KNOW WHERE IS POSSIBLE TO TRAIN SPARTANS!!!!!
It was just my own guess about amazons , maybe if there is Pantheon of Aphrodite present in that city it would allow to train amazons ?
I mentioned spartans just because they can be trained in two places only , I thougth amazons are the same case.

Craterus
05-14-2005, 18:45
It has really slow growth, so it may take a while to get yourself to Pantheon (sp?) level.

IliaDN
05-15-2005, 12:35
Well somethings about my campaign:
1. Romans are gone , followed by Pontus;
2. I except soon to be at war with whole Asia , and I am already at war with Dacians , Thrace , Gauls , Selucids.

pezhetairoi
05-16-2005, 01:43
I'm into Turn 14 now, lots of stuff happened and I'm now in control of all Sicily, Most of Greece, and all western Asia Minor. 17 provinces and one more in the bag next turn, how's that eh? Okay, a synopsis of what's happened so far. Bear with me, I hope I don't sound too longwinded... :-D

Turn 1, I put my army into the Scipii red zone hoping to lure out both garrison and field army to attack me so my hoplites can fight defensive (their strongest). Greek army moves for Corinth, Thermon army makes its way to reinforce with its Cretan archers. Both Rhodes and Pergamum army build up.

Turn 2, the Scipii attack, but only with 3 hastati, and they put their 2 factioners in another army meant for Lilybaeum, out of the battle. Very disappointed, but easily won. I besiege Messana. Rhodes army crosses to Halicarnassus en route north, Pergamum builds up some more. Asia Minor diplomat becomes busy looking for trade.

Turn 3, the Scipii Lilybaeum army comes back to hit me with the Scipii garrison. Just what I wanted, even though they had archers and 2 velites. I just took their arrows until velites, hastati and household members all routed smashing against my spear circle, then my cavalry hunted down their archers. Messana taken, the Scipii erased from Sicily. At this time Carthage moves into Messana territory so I have to quickly retrain all my troops and wait. Meanwhile, Thermon army has joined Spartan army and Corinth is stormed. Reinforcements arriving on the Macedonian side are also slaughtered. Did you know how amazingly effective four units of hoplites stacked in the same area, with one of them being Spartans, can be? It was a solid meatgrinder--2 units of levy pikemen charged right into them, and it was like a machinegun. They died so fast they didn't even have time to rout.

Turn 4, this is the greatest battle I've ever fought, possibly the greatest victory too. But I'm sure in terms of casualties you'll say I suck. Carthage besieges Messana as expected, with their grand army, and I sally. It was close, because I lured them to the gates and left my hoplites all bunched up at the gates to defend it against attacks from all sides. It was a battle of attrition, but I eventually won. I'll let the stats speak for themselves..

Dionysios of Sparta--Deployed 1271, Killed 855, Left 287
Hanno--Deployed 1117, Killed 1105, Left 11

I hate elephants. :-(

Turn 5, The Scipii land one pathetic hastati unit to retake Messana, I simply trash them, but because my cavalry were late in reinforcement I couldn't chase them down and they return to the ship. Athens is assaulted by my combined army in Greece, but carelessly I left Antigonos to die. Thankfully, though, at this time I have a new factioner in Sparta, and I bring him up to Athens to join the army. Asia Minor army has also been busy, and now it assaults Nicomedia, winning a rather (duh) sort of one-sided victory.

Turn 6: No battles, thankfully, but my bribing of Macedonian armies begins, beginning with 2 light lancers for 185 d. A new faction member that I choose to deploy in Messana, to join my faction heir's army.

Turn 7, Lilybaeum and Larissa are besieged. A Thracian army lands near Nicomedia with their faction leader, so I move my Asian army into their red zone and wait for them to attack.

Turn 8, They DON'T attack. So I attack them, and completely destroy them. Thrace has been very seriously set back by this defeat. *is very proud of self* I have buily up a small army now to attack Kydonia in Rhodes, and now I send this to attack it via ship. Larissa is stormed. Light Lancers are not exactly the weapon to use against Spartan hoplites. Oh well. Diplomat in Asia minor is very busy bribing rebel armies, who are all Greek in origin, so I'm getting 5 and 6 units of hoplites/cretans/rhodians every turn or so for about the cost of two units. Turn 8 was a very busy turn, Lilybaeum was also stormed, and since its garrison was only one faction member and one skirmisher, I just used my general's cavalries and smashed them.

Turn 9: More bribing, Greece also has a rebel army bribed and sent to join the Spartan army. The pathetic 33 hastati unit is landed on Sicily again, and it is ignored. Meanwhile, a Sicilian navy has been built up and it makes sure the Scipii have no place to return to. I spot another one-ship transport fleet carrying the remaining Scipii family members and a 7 unit army nearby that is heading to Carthage.

Turn 10: That irritating Scipii unit is deleted from the map by one hoplite unit in search of experience. The 3-bireme starter fleet I had at the start, that was sent west towards Sicily, is caught in a storm but only some men were lost, easily retrained. Asia Minor army becomes the first full stack after it combines with all the rebel bribed armies, and it besieges Sardis. The Sicilian fleet drives the big Scipii army fleet further away from Sicily, just in case.

Turn 11: Spartan army at this time has been moving towards Apollonia, which has been seen to be Brutii, and which has also been seen to have the bulk of the Brutii military strength in it. Marching towards it through the mountains, the Brutii summon a whole bunch of armies to block the Spartans' path at the same time as my army runs out of turns. New factioner is deployed to Larissa and quickly gallops off to join Spartan army. The rebel army at Halicarnassus (another 6-7 units' worth) is bribed for 1255d, and the units left over from the forming of the full stack at Sardis move south to reinforce. The Kydonia army is too strong for my 3 Militia Hoplites to beat (especially since it comprises 2 Cretan archers) so it is bribed instead. Kydonia is assaulted with just the Cretan archers, and they win without losing a single man. Go Cretans! Sicilian army prepares to cross to Capua to destroy the Scipii faction, while Sardis is stormed. The general's cavalry caused some trouble to my militia hoplites, but not -too- much trouble, especially after my hoplites made it through the breach in the wall to take them in the rear.

Turn 12: Another idiotic, suicidal Scipii family member lands ALONE at Messana (what is WRONG with the AI?), and it is crushed by my generals (3 by now). After this, the Sicilian army crosses to Capua, arriving off the coast just in time to run out of turns. Gah. Halicarnassus is stormed, Cyrene is besieged by the Kydonia army, which has crossed the Mediterranean, but to my horror and eternal shame I forgot to pack along the diplomat to bribe and establish diplomatic ties in Africa, so the fleet goes back to fetch him. Spartan army hits all the armies, but because of its position, they all retreat -into- Apollonia. Damn. Now they have 13 units behind those walls. At least, I manage to catch one family member who retreated away from the city, and he is, needless to say, squished. I mean, that's the only fate that can happen to a 40-horse unit that charges into a Spartan hoplite unit at full strength. Apollonia's gates have been opened (miracle!) by my spy who has been waiting in there for some time. So I storm it anyway, stacking all my hoplite units into one fearsome spear forest one on top of them other, and sending them through the gate. Another battle of attrition like the one against the Carthaginians at Messana, but this time losses are much less (600 to 1600) and the Brutii are crushed. After this defeat they have only 2 family members and 8 units left in their remaining 2 provinces (they didn't take Salona.) Sadly, though, I lost another factioner in the fight. Sigh. I am too careless with my general's cavalry, and they are too crappy.

Turn 13, the BIG Scipii army I was telling you about? DAMN! They somehow evaded my fleets and landed at Messana. I hate Roman guts. Anyway, they foolishly don't besiege Messana, so I ignore them. After all, my Sicilian army has just besieged Capua and next turn they will be dead since Capua only has 2 units in it, and there is only one family member outside the city as reinforcements. Cyrene is stormed. Two Armoured Hoplites from Sparta start moving west to Italy to reinforce the Sicilian army, and another is started in Syracuse.

Turn 14: I haven't done anything so far but to commission units and buildings, so hooray. More to come.

Craterus
05-16-2005, 19:36
Just one point, do you really have to stack units on top of each other? It's really annoying (on MP) and I'm sure you can win without doing that. People talk about lack of historical accuracy, well 4+ phalanxes stacked on top of each other (phalanxes were already tightly packed, you couldn't have fit any more men in there if you tried).

katank
05-16-2005, 23:43
Yes, otherwise the enemy cav often crashes through. Multistacking with 2 lines thick allows for optimal frontage/combat power as all spears are lowered. Even militia hops are good when packed like that.

Historical accuracy is out the door. This is just effective as a bit of an exploit like corner camping.

As for amazons, only trainable by rebels with a blacksmith. You can easily modify all factions to be able to build them there though as there is already an amazon resource coded in.

pezhetairoi
05-17-2005, 01:24
Well, the stacking thing is only used in messy attrition battles at the gate. I don't use it anywhere else... Like when I was fighting the Carthaginian starter army on Sicily I had 5 militia hoplites and 2 hoplite units packed at the gates confronting a whole bunch of Carthaginians also equally packed. But I'm starting to realise it's not working very well, because I'm taking more casualties than I usually should. So tactics will change. Historically the phalanx -was- tightly packed, that is true, with only 30cm between one man's shoulder and the next in close order, but since here the 'hoplites' we have actually merely present a wall of pikes identical to the Macedonian phalanx, there is actually plenty of space in between each man (60cm or so), enough to fit in another man, and between ranks, too, there is about enough to fit another man. So stacking phalanxes is actually quite possible. The AI at least realises it is impossible to fit so many men into such a small space. When I stacked my phalanxes up in preparation to storm the gates of Apollonia, as they marched towards the gates they gradually lost dressing, and from a square formation they became more of a haphazard forest of spears pointing in random direction marching in a circle formation by the time they reached the gate. That told me it was impossible to use that as a warwinning tactic. But 3-4 phalanxes stacked together (4 is max, I think), defending a street against an enemy advance, that is invincible. And highly effective, too. And you don't get phalangites breaking formation because they can't fit. But any more than that, you will.

Turn 14: The Scipii in Capua, together with their remaining Italian family member, try to sally out to beat me. They must be nuts, considering they are only a third of my numbers. I trash them, and storm Capua. The Scipii are destroyed. Greek army prepares to cross to complete its destruction of the Brutii. The Asia minor army gets a lift east by ship to the mountains bordering Tarsus and Cilicia.

Turn 15: Ancyra is bribed, the Greek army crosses to Italy after a ship is made available. The army in Cyrene moves to Leptis Magna, but it is no longer rebel. :-( Since it is Numidian, and I have no wish to antagonise them, I decide to move to Thapsus after dropping my diplomat off to establish diplomatic ties. The (new) army in Sicily is built up sufficiently to become an invasion force. I give it some combat experience by attacking the ex-Scipii big army. interesting point: The Roman Bodyguards have become Warlord's Cavalry. Any idea why? Anyway. Rebel army squashed, Sicily is secured. I start building a cavalry element in preparation to cross to Carthage. I also bribe Byzantium at this time, getting 3 hoplites and 1 peltast unit in the deal.

Turn 16: The Senate grand army appears on the border with Capua, and I panick a little, I admit. The Capua army retreats from the city, leaving only a samnite mercenary as garrison, and heads for Tarentum to pick up the armoured hoplites and Spartans that are in the Greek army. That done, feeling incredibly confident now, the Greek army besieges Tarentum while the Capua army heads back towards Capua.

Turn 17: More distance covered back to Capua en route to fight the Senate army (I plan to provoke it into attacking me by sitting in its red zone), while asia minor army heads for the mountain pass leading to Tarsus. Second Asia Minor army (made up of mostly ex-rebels) receives a hoplite complement from Pergamum and heads for Sinope. The Seleucids and Pontus have made alliance, so Pontus is now included in the annihilation deal I have for the Seleucids. At this time they have only EI, so mwahaha. Thessalonica finally has the plague, so I shall leave it alone for 8 turns while the Greek army takes down the Brutii and returns to take Bylazora. I'm contemplating whether I should build a new army for Thrace, or just bide my time---suggestions?

Oh, and I did a body count. Not too good-looking, i'm afraid, because hoplites are crap in siege battles and I fought mostly sieges.

I have killed:

1764 Brutii and 2 factioners
2900 Scipii and 7 factioners
1467 Macedonians and 2 factioners
834 Thracians and 1 factioner
1310 Carthaginians and 2 factioners
760 Seleucids and 1 factioner
2018 rebels

for a total of 9874 people.

I have lost 3259 mercenaries and Greeks in the accomplishment of my grand aims, mostly militia hoplites, and 2 factioners who died without informing me they were dead. I hate Greek general's cavalry.

Closest battle ever: Definitely the sally battle against the Carthaginians who besieged me. Look.

Attacker: Dionysios of Sparta, 1271 men
Defender: Hanno, 1117 men (including 24 elephants...)

Clear Victory
Dionysios of Sparta deployed 1271, kills 855, left 287
Hanno deployed 1117, kills 1105, left 11.

It was REALLY close, because most of my 287 were recovered injured. At the end of the battle proper, I had only 19 general's cavalry, 2 peltasts, 13 hoplites, 20 militia hoplites and 100 archers left. I kid you not. If the Carthaginians hadn't broken when they did I would have lost Sicily.

IliaDN
05-17-2005, 07:37
I am about to attack Egyptions.
Also I have attacked Armenia and after I defeat them I will go for Parthia.
! I am not at war with Carthaginians , STILL !

Franconicus
05-17-2005, 14:30
Finally I arrived in Greece. ~:cool:
I play hard/hard. Anything less is just a waste of time. Greek cities are much easier than I thought.

Strategy:
Main theatres are Sicily and Mainland. Asia Minor is another frontier, but with less priority, so I kept defensive there.

At the very beginning you have a lot of good armies at the right location. And you can buy mercs. So I attacked at once. In Sicily I attacked the Scipii, because I could reach them at once. Once the Romans are gone I cared about the Carthagians. In mainland I took Corinth and attacked the Macedonian. Then Athens is easy to liberate.

Tactic:
You have good phalanx units but no cav except General’s guard. Militia hoplites are cheap and you can built them everywhere. However, they are not able to stand cav charge. So I adjusted my tactic a bit. The centre of my formation is built by (professional) hoplites. They stand in 4 – 5 rows and can stand any frontal attack. On each side I have 1 – 2 militia hoplites- They stand in a square box formation. So they can stand any cav attack and change their direction very fast. I also use them for flanking. With phalanx mode turned off they are quite fast. Behind the line I have skirms and archers. The skirms concentrate on the “hot spots” or flank, too. My general’s cav is behind the line. I use it only defensive and against routing enemies.

History:
I sent the Militia from Pergamon to the mainland and two hoplites from Sparta to Sicily. This operation costed my complete fleet but helped me a lot.

In Sicily I marched north and collected mercs (1 phalanx and 1 skirm). I attacked the romans at once. Does not make any different who attacks. I killed 1044, including both family members and lost 391. No enemy escaped and so Messana was mine after the first turn!
The Carths attacked Syracuse. They had more troops than I had and they had elephants. My troops were devided. So I started a counterattack from Messana to Lilybaeum. I killed a small army on the way and made the big one retreat to Lily. After that I build a fort at the frontier and reinforced my troops. I had some smaller battles with Carth. You can handle their cav with a comb. of flexible militia, skirms and generals cav. If they have no cav, they are easy to kill. Some Scipii appeared near Lily and disappeared again. When I was strong enough I laid besiege on Lily. Carth landed two times small troops to free Lily, each time with 25 elephants. I attacked them with javelin cav and flaming arrows and could kill them. Now it is 260 b.c. . In two turns Lily will capitulate. Then I own all of Sicily! I killed 3,500 Carths and lost 1250 men (=2.7). Against the Romans I killed 1050 and lost 390 men (also 2,7).

On the mainland I sent my spy to Corinth and attack at once. The Spartanians are amazing. They marched to the market place and found two times as much Mac hoplites there. They just killed them like nothing. After that I kept on fighting Mac. I took Larissa in 268 and Thessa in 263. Athen was besieged and fell in 265. All of Greek mainland is mine now.
Fighting Mac was not as difficulty as expected. Once I faced a 1,500 men army with 700 horses. I had also 1,500 men but only 49 horses. Mac attacked my right side with 100 light and 100 heavy cav. I placed my general behind the line and sent my three skirmers to the right. Skirmers weakened the enemy, general killed all that broke through. Some heavy cav. Came in tough with my militia. Then the cav tried to brake through my centre. Many died. Only problem is that cannot follow the routing enemy.
In total I killed 3200 Macs and lost 1,700 men (= 1.9). Lost most men when I attacked towns.

Asia minor: I was attacked from Pontus. I called my family member from Rhodos and he brought all mercs he could get. Together be beat Pontus twice. I lost 380 men and killed the same number. Now I start to discipline them.

Next steps:
Brutii attacked me and I start a punitive expedition. One army from Thermon and one from Thessa. I will wipe out the Carths on Sicily and reconquer the Greek land on Italy. I also try to get Asia Minor.
~:cheers:

IliaDN
05-17-2005, 14:46
Hi , Franconicus , I see you are doing your campaign well. ~;)
Just one interesting fact from my campaign:
All romans didn't concuer a single town!
Scipii didn't do it because I have crushed their main force on Sicily on the first turn , Brutii tried to help them later , sending their forces on Sicily instead of conquering Balkans.
But I don't understand why Julii didn't conquer anything!

Franconicus
05-17-2005, 16:27
IliaDN,

you are right. I saw this before in my Germanian campaign. While I conquered all of Gaul the Julii only conquered Osca. They didn't even attack the Gaulish cities in the south of the Alps. ~:confused:

pezhetairoi
05-18-2005, 00:50
Julii are slow, even in my game... but I see your campaigns are going on better than mine in terms of casualties! I shall be more aggressive, then...

Franconicus
05-18-2005, 10:14
Just played two rounds yesterday. Carths landed with 500 militia and peasants in Sicily to free Lily. They attacked my army of 1500. I killed all of them and lost none.
Next turn the garisson sallied. I killed all including the elephants. No Sicily is mine. I have a very good experienced army in Sicily. Shall I send it to Carthage or Italy first.

My campaign against the Brutii is not so good. I killed 500 without much losses, but then they attacked one army at Appolonia and erased it completely. They will pay for it!

IliaDN
05-18-2005, 12:12
I will be rather happy if you check my threads in the frontroom.

Franconicus
05-18-2005, 14:53
Well some things about my plan:
1. Leave Thrace to be in Campus Getae as my protectorate ( to protect me from Skythia;
IliaDN,

Why worry about Scythians? They are just a bunch of barbarians. We know their weakness very well. I would not mind fighting them, but they have nothing I desire.
I now fought Carthagian elephants, Roman Hasati, Macedonian light and heavy cav. and nothing is able to scare me. Pontus seems to have a new light but fast kind of army; but I do not have much experience with them. So the only faction to be aware of is still Germania. And they are far far away.

By the way, since I play Greek faction noone wants to ally with me. What is your exp.?

IliaDN
05-18-2005, 15:50
IliaDN,

Why worry about Scythians? They are just a bunch of barbarians. We know their weakness very well. I would not mind fighting them, but they have nothing I desire.
I now fought Carthagian elephants, Roman Hasati, Macedonian light and heavy cav. and nothing is able to scare me. Pontus seems to have a new light but fast kind of army; but I do not have much experience with them. So the only faction to be aware of is still Germania. And they are far far away.

By the way, since I play Greek faction noone wants to ally with me. What is your exp.?
1. I just don't want to wage war with steppes ... for now ;
2. I still don't fight Carthagian faction and romans are already gone :
3. Why is Germania a threat :
4. I have no allies in this campaign.

pezhetairoi
05-20-2005, 01:04
1. I just don't want to wage war with steppes ... for now ;
2. I still don't fight Carthagian faction and romans are already gone :
3. Why is Germania a threat :
4. I have no allies in this campaign.

I am getting dangerously close to the horsearcher factions. I am starting to get worried. I have no allies in this campaign. I have 6 enemies so far, and counting. At least 3 out of the 4 Roman factions are out. Germania has not been scouted yet so I don't know how much of a threat they are. However, the Julii are allied with them and that surprises me.

Franconicus
05-20-2005, 09:30
IliaDN,

Germania might be a problem because they have phalanx units as good as the Greek. And they have excellent cav, too.

My campaign is going very slowly. I played two thurns last night and I guess I am in the midgame now (258 bc).

I refilled my Sicilian army and landed in Africa, south of Carthage. I lost my spy trying to infiltrate Thapsus.
I attacked and took Appolonia. My phalanxes (armoured hoplites and mercs) cleared the town and killed 1600 Brutii.
I also had a battle in Pontus. They killed 1200 men and lost only 400. My army was not very good (2 militia hopl., 1 merc. hopl., 2 fam. members, 2 merc. archers, 2 slingers, 2 javelins). Pontus had lots of cav (3 fam. members, one of them had a guard of 100, chariots, javelin). My phalanx could not keep the line. My guard could not stand the attack of the Pontus family.
I withdraw to Pergamon and collected as many mercs as possible. Then they attacked me and this time I won.
How do you fight these chariots?

Besides that lots of naval battles. Slowly I get control of the sea between Greek and Asia Minor.

Next steps:
I am going to take Thapsus and Carthage. I will ignore the Brutii outside of Italy and attack them in their hometowns. I will burn their homes and retreat. When the Scipii come to retake, I will land at their homes. But I need some atrillery first.

IliaDN
05-20-2005, 09:39
How do you fight these chariots?

When I fought Selucids I just made 2-row phalanx line and waited enemy to crush in ,ussually chariots run amok pretty soon , as for pontic chariots I think it is possible to do the same , fire arrows may be helpful too. ~:cheers:

Franconicus
05-20-2005, 10:26
I need better phalanx there. Militia are just not good enough.

IliaDN
05-21-2005, 16:01
Well , that's all folks - my campaign for Greeks is over! ~;)
Maybe it was quecker than I have expected , but it was cool anyway!
Maybe I will be off to Dacia or Britannia.
I ended this campaign about 240 - 250 B.C.

bubbanator
05-22-2005, 01:36
I used this stratagy for Carthage in Sicily but it would work for the Greeks too.

I rushed out and took Syracuse, rebuilt my army and took Messana. The Romans kept sending troops to recapture it. I built up a 1 full stack army and one nearly full. I sent the full stack to Rome and the other army to the virtualy undefended city of Capua. I took both cities and wiped out the Senate and the Scipii on the same turn ~:cheers:

Then I went south and took the Brutii cities and made peace with the Julii untill I could rebuild my army. Then I stabbed them in the back and finished them off too.

Viking
05-22-2005, 17:59
Well , that's all folks - my campaign for Greeks is over! ~;)
Maybe it was quecker than I have expected , but it was cool anyway!
Maybe I will be off to Dacia or Britannia.
I ended this campaign about 240 - 250 B.C.

Now people(fellow spammers ~;) ), what to play next?

I`m eager to start a new campaign now.
IliaDN has finished his TGC campaign but how about you others?

I still wanna play a pontic campaign, but if I get no support, then I`ll join you others in whatever faction you might choose. ~:)

IliaDN
05-22-2005, 18:07
I have tried Britannia and Dacia , but they didn't give me much cool impressions , for now , so , maybe , Pontus is a good idea.

Franconicus
05-23-2005, 10:15
IliaDN,

please tell us more about your campaign. How many towns did you take. Which ones? What was the order of your campaigns? Any good advice you can give? Any problems still unsolved?

I am still in the middle. So do not wait.

pezhetairoi
05-24-2005, 01:28
...He don't seem to be replying :-) So far I'm on Turn 26 (about 258 BC i believe) and I own 38 provinces with another 4 more in the bag in the next 2 turns. Legio Carthago has moved from Carthage into Numidia en route west to Tingi and Corduba. Legio Insulae has island-hopped from Carthage to Caralis to Palma and is about to hop over to attack Numantia. Legio Italica is facing some serious public order problems in Italy because all cities were occupied instead of exterminated, but nothing a few large temples and a heavy mailed fist can't fix. Legio Borealis, despite its name, is still on the Adriatic coast. It is on the way to take down Germania. Spear Warbands ought not to be a problem with the accompaniment of my incredible bulging treasury and the army of diplomats that is preceding it into Germania. Legio Aegyptus is, despite its name, at Tarsus in Asia Minor, getting ready to hop to Salamis to Alexandria. Legio Syriacum (is that right?) is at Sidon pacifying it, and it will head Jerusalem-Damascus-Palmyra-Hatra to destroy the Seleucids after that. Legio Graecus is one turn from Porrolissum and Dacia is surely in the bag from an inspection of their armies (what armies?). They haven't expanded past their 2 starter provinces and they are surely too damn poor to afford any more units. Legio Euxinum is advancing towards Campus Getae, steamrolling Thrace as it goes along. The Thracian fullstack was recently bribed with the inclusion of 3 family members, so their cities are now emptied, or so my spy tells me. It will initiate hostilities with Armenia following this, landing at Kotais. There are 3 grand fleets on the water now, one at Byzantium ready to dominate the Black Sea, one in the eastern Mediterranean intent on getting naval domination over Egypt, and one in the west which is very busy acting both as a transport fleet and a battering ram against Numidia and Carthage.

So far, my strategy has been to take lower Greece and Sicily at the start while expanding at a leisurely pace into the rebel provinces of Asia Minor at the start of the game. After which all resources were devoted to the destruction of the Romans while in the east I attempted to dominate Asia Minor. Bribing rebel armies was very useful here since I was able to obtain 2-3 large stacks of militia hoplite fodder with which to storm cities. As soon as I could build up an army and navy I landed in Africa in two directions--one from Sicily to Carthage, and another via Kydonia-Cyrene-Thapsus. Following which Thapsus army and the Carthage army would work in tandem to conquer the coastline of the western mediterranean. My eastern strategy has been to be defensive on the Asian frontier with the horsearcher factions while I take down Egypt which also has not expanded beyond its initial provinces, and the Seleucids. Diplomatically, if a faction is allied with my enemy I will attack that faction as well for their foolishness. Thus Pontus went down in flames 5 turns after they allied with Seleucids, and the Germans are going to get it as soon as my legion gets to them.

Naval domination is not necessary in the early game, but now that I have the capability I am indulging in a naval programme just for the heck of it. It's very gratifying to wipe navies off the face off the earth by surrounding them completely.

IliaDN
05-24-2005, 05:38
So my campaign was almost the asian one,
after I conquered Italy and Balkans I was mostly busy in Asia :
it all began when I defeated Pontus and owned Asia Minor - I was at war with Selucids in Asia , when I saw armenian army marching through my lands , I bribed it and sent my army with bribed armenian F.M. to conquer Armenia , then I attacked Egypt , and then , having Armenia and Selucids defeated I attacked Parthia.
Maybe it is a bit funny - having no strong cav. I fought cav. factions.
I ended game with 50 provinces.

pezhetairoi
05-24-2005, 06:32
I think I shall end the game with 50 provinces too. Itching to go back and play Germania again :-D I've refined my tactics and I think it'll be fun. Unless someone calls me along to play Dacia or some other assorted thingie, Germania it'll be.

IliaDN
05-24-2005, 06:45
What about Pontus?

Franconicus
05-24-2005, 07:17
Looks like you did a great job. I am much slower than you are. It is 259 now. Still waiting for Carthage to give up.

I opend a threat in the Colloseum about changing the rules to get higher difficulites. Maybe you can post your ideas. :bow:

Viking
05-24-2005, 19:32
So far I'm on Turn 26 (about 258 BC i believe) and I own 38 provinces with another 4 more in the bag in the next 2 turns.

How the heck did you do that? ~:eek:


It's very gratifying to wipe navies off the face off the earth by surrounding them completely.

Ah yes, that`s a great thing to do! ~:cool:


What about Pontus?

He seem to have forgot! ~:)

I`ve just started my pontic campaign, and it`s going really slow so there`s nothing to post about yet. :book:

pezhetairoi
05-25-2005, 01:53
Oh no I haven't forgotten pontus, they were allied with the Seleucids so I 'wiped them out' in 5 turns. I say it in inverted commas because they actually still have Kotais, miraculously, but I've been recently too lazy on the Pontic front to attack them, not to mention Legio Pontus got renamed Legio Aegyptus. When the attack comes, it'll be from a totally different direction--My Thracian army will cross the Black Sea to get them while my 'minor' 10-unit Sinope army will advance up the coast. Pontus is gone, full-stack or no full-stack. And Armenia will be next.

Oh as to how I managed to get 38 provinces in turn 26... simple! I was strongest faction by turn 6, and now 8 full-stacks and 2 half-stacks loitering around the map. Every turn takes me about 2 hours to go through because I have to fight 3 battles each time, give or take one. So far I've fought 43 battles, of which only about 5 were field battles (oh shame, my hoplites do so much better in the field), the rest were assaults. Unlike Craterus, I don't like waiting out sieges :-D

Next turn, Jerusalem, Palma, Porrolissum, Patavium, Salamis will all be stormed, and the turn after that, Segesta, Campus Getae. It'll be a very busy Turn 28.

The current status quo: Carthage is reduced to Palma and Corduba, Pontus is reduced to Kotais, Seleucids are reduced to Hatra and Damascus and they're next after I pacify Jerusalem (I'll probably just exterminate it, it has a hardcoded 30% public order deficit anyhow), Egypt will be reduced after Jerusalem falls to its three Nile provinces, Numidia will probably never recover after I bribed its grand army, Thrace will be destroyed next turn, Dacia will be reduced to Campus Iazyges, Armenia and Parthia? Let them fight it out with one another. Claw each other to death before I come in with my own all-cavalry army now under construction in Antioch. The Julii will be destroyed next turn, The Gauls are going to be bribed into nothingness, the Germans are also usually quite amenable to bribes from my diplomatic army. Scythia will not be attacked for now, but I'm going to build a small all-cav army just in case, and grab a bunch of Scythian mercs to relive old times :). By the end of turn 28 I will have 44 provinces. Then, just 5-6 more! I can get the campaign done by Turn 32 latest, I estimate.

I'm going German next...

IliaDN
05-25-2005, 05:08
I have forgotten : I made Thrace my protectorate , leaving it in Campus Geatae.
Also I admit I could finish my campaign earlier , but I was too lazy to attack Carphage , thou they had no real defence on Sicily.

Franconicus
05-25-2005, 07:38
:furious3: It is 252 and I have only 14 counties :furious3:
I am a looser, man. I just took Carthage and Helia last night. Carthage was the first stone wall town I attacked.

Pez, being so fast, do you ever get more advanced troops?

pezhetairoi
05-25-2005, 08:11
Well, I have armoureds in every army... only that none of my cities have yet had the chance to get Spartans, even though I modded it so it didn't need the spartan hidden resource... right now my Spartans are down to 110 men and they're silver-chevroned now :-D pretty cool stuff, i'd say. Franc? Where's Helia? And...what happened to the Greek cities? Isn't Athens supposed to be stone-walled too? Don't tell me you didn't attack that... Well, I was fast because I katanked :-D That notebook of mine really helps. It helps me keep track of which cities I've developed, which cities need more building, etc etc, so my armies go with my empire building. Cool no? I upgrade my cities whenever I can, but I always ensure (and the cashflow helps a lot at this point in time) that when I upgrade them, all their available buildings have been constructed before upgrading. I will not pursue the same strategy with Germania, though. Probably will sit tight in Italia a little while to build three field armies for my strategy. I will start Germania tonight. It's been such a long time...

Franconicus
05-25-2005, 08:16
Well, I have armoureds in every army... only that none of my cities have yet had the chance to get Spartans, even though I modded it so it didn't need the spartan hidden resource... right now my Spartans are down to 110 men and they're silver-chevroned now :-D pretty cool stuff, i'd say. Franc? Where's Helia? And...what happened to the Greek cities? Isn't Athens supposed to be stone-walled too? Don't tell me you didn't attack that... Well, I was fast because I katanked :-D That notebook of mine really helps. It helps me keep track of which cities I've developed, which cities need more building, etc etc, so my armies go with my empire building. Cool no? I upgrade my cities whenever I can, but I always ensure (and the cashflow helps a lot at this point in time) that when I upgrade them, all their available buildings have been constructed before upgrading. I will not pursue the same strategy with Germania, though. Probably will sit tight in Italia a little while to build three field armies for my strategy. I will start Germania tonight. It's been such a long time...
I have to admit that I did not attack Athens. I just laid siege on it and waited. So I got it without a fight. But it takes time!

IliaDN
05-25-2005, 08:17
And where is Helia?

Franconicus
05-25-2005, 08:18
I mean Helicarnasus

IliaDN
05-25-2005, 08:21
Halicarnasus.
And why didn't you capture Athens? ~:confused:

pezhetairoi
05-25-2005, 08:22
ah, be more proactive! assault them! That's the secret to my speed. I just besiege, wait a turn to build as many rams as I can, and banzai, I go in and storm the gates. With hoplites your troops are naturally defensively strong so they will be able to defend the breach against anyone hoping to stop you, so why not? Take down the walls, go in! Oh, my speed was not only due to the stormings I did, though... bribes lubricated my way through the Mediterranean very considerably, I'll give you that... That's why I had so few field battles--if they contained militia hoplites and peltasts, they joined my side. If they didn't they were simply bribed away and their family members with them. I've only had to fight a handful of field battles because the rest of them, what I felt too lazy to attack I just bribed. Every army has a diplomat accompanying it, together with one diplomat per faction that I am not at war with, as 'ambassador' cum map salesman, and one diplomat near every frontier city I have. It's a good system that ensures no army can come close without you bribing it away unless it has an heir or leader in it.

pezhetairoi
05-25-2005, 08:23
Ilia, he took Athens by blockade not assault... cool! The three of us are online now! Nice. I'm in Singapore, Ilia's from Russia, where's Franc from?

Franconicus
05-25-2005, 08:24
ah, be more proactive! assault them! That's the secret to my speed. I just besiege, wait a turn to build as many rams as I can, and banzai, I go in and storm the gates. With hoplites your troops are naturally defensively strong so they will be able to defend the breach against anyone hoping to stop you, so why not? Take down the walls, go in! Oh, my speed was not only due to the stormings I did, though... bribes lubricated my way through the Mediterranean very considerably, I'll give you that... That's why I had so few field battles--if they contained militia hoplites and peltasts, they joined my side. If they didn't they were simply bribed away and their family members with them. I've only had to fight a handful of field battles because the rest of them, what I felt too lazy to attack I just bribed. Every army has a diplomat accompanying it, together with one diplomat per faction that I am not at war with, as 'ambassador' cum map salesman, and one diplomat near every frontier city I have. It's a good system that ensures no army can come close without you bribing it away unless it has an heir or leader in it.
I see. I never bribe! I do not like that!

IliaDN
05-25-2005, 08:25
I decided to use " no-bribing " in my German campaign , with the exception of rebels and small armies , also I re-bribed F.M.

IliaDN
05-25-2005, 08:27
~;) I just decided to skip one day in my institute ( it is 11:21 Moscow time ).
Edit I mean A.M. time.

Franconicus
05-25-2005, 08:28
I am in Germany. It is half past 9.

pezhetairoi
05-25-2005, 08:29
oh cool... well, I use bribes whenever possible, after all, that's what diplomats are for, eh? But I only bribe to a limit, because my treasury has to be able to support that on top of being able to develop all my cities' buildings, and still finance new units. Hence Greece is a nice civ for that, but not the barb factions. I'll have to fight a lot for Germania, but I'll simply lure them into attacking so I can fight defensive. :-D Heroic victories, anyone?

Franconicus
05-25-2005, 09:01
I do not bribe. I am a warrior, not a dealer. :charge:
Germania is sure fun What will be your road map? First Alesia and the south? (That's how I did it. It's fun) Or start with the Britons. Or going directly to Rome? Or something completly new? :duel:

IliaDN
05-25-2005, 12:04
[QUOTE=Franconicus]I do not bribe. I am a warrior, not a dealer. :charge:
QUOTE]
Agreed.

IliaDN
05-25-2005, 12:07
IGermania is sure fun What will be your road map? First Alesia and the south? (That's how I did it. It's fun) Or start with the Britons. Or going directly to Rome? Or something completly new? :duel:
And what if I did all at the same time?

Craterus
05-25-2005, 18:20
I have to admit that I did not attack Athens. I just laid siege on it and waited. So I got it without a fight. But it takes time!

Even I assaulted Athens, I think I only took 10 casualties.

katank
05-25-2005, 22:40
Yep, Athens is easy to take out. Those militia hops are pathetic on walls. You'll lose a couple of guys to towers inevitably upon approach.

As for bribing, I think that in 1.0, bribing was too easy. However, 1.2 made it too hard. It's absurd to have two measly captain led rebel units demand 6k+ as a bribe.

For Germania, I went in all directions. I sent one army to Alesia and sacked it ASAP which then moved southward and into Spain. My faction leader's army captured Denmark and moved south. The easternmost army took rebel towns along the way to Northern Italy. Everything else poured south, sacking towns along the way.

Soon, I was trashing all of Italy.

pezhetairoi
05-26-2005, 01:32
Wait a minute! Greek thread here! But anyway. Just posted to say I'm closing shop here and moving to Germania's thread, I've finished my Greek campaign in grand style with 5 stormings in one turn. The only factions I have not engaged: the HA factions, and Spain. Yay! Played for 5 hours yesterday, frantic action. I end at turn 34 with 55 provinces.

A conclusion to my campaign follows.

Factions destroyed:
Macedon
Senate
Julii
Scipii
Brutii
Pontus
Thrace
Dacia
Carthage

Factions left with one province
Seleucids
Egypt

Factions at war that do not fall into above categories
Gaul
Numidia
Germania

Total casualties: 8402 Greeks

Total enemy casualties:
464 Numidians
2656 Carthaginians
2061 Macedonians
1023 Gauls
1053 Thracians
3123 Seleucids
1002 Egyptians
1759 Scipii
2700 Brutii
2182 Senate
2873 Julii
2322 Pontics
3975 Rebels

Total: 27193

Thus ends the Greek Cities Campaign. Off to Germania!

crazybastard
05-27-2005, 05:53
Dude! These shizznits are awesome!!
My 80 units of Spartan Hop. single-handedly defeated three groups of 120-units of levy pikemen with only 15 lost!

pezhetairoi
05-27-2005, 05:59
...wow, they are good, but you squandered them as phalanx troops? 15 out of 80 is a very big proportion for Spartans, you know... Better used as a storming party than a field troop if you've only got one unit...

Franconicus
05-27-2005, 11:53
Bad news!
My African army is doing fine. I shipped part of it to Thapsus and attacked it. I lost 1,000 the enemy 2,700. There was a short riot in Carthage but this is o.k. now. The Scipii landed with 3 FM near Carthage and laid siege it. I sunk their ships called the army from Thapsus and bnow they are trapped.

My Greece armies are not dooing that good! My main army defeated the Brutti though and took Salona. Thessa, however, had a epidemic. When it was over, I put a FM there a built some pretty fine troops there. I sent them to catch a Macedonian FM, who was maroding aroung. They did it; but when they returned those bloody Brutii had bribed Thessa :furious3: So I had to take it away.

I also built a big army in Pergamum with three FM. When the Pontus attacked me, I was relaxed. I was so much stronger than them that I decided to let the computer do the job. Terrible mistake. Guess what - I lost the fight, the town and my brothers there. :furious3: :furious3: :furious3:

IliaDN
05-27-2005, 17:53
Bad news!
I was so much stronger than them that I decided to let the computer do the job. Terrible mistake. Guess what - I lost the fight, the town and my brothers there. :furious3: :furious3: :furious3:
No , no , no you are playing H or VH don't autorsolve battles - it will be horrible.

katank
05-28-2005, 16:40
That's true. auto resolve is tied to the campaign level and can be horrible. It's annoying how you are often forced even to fight out battles with tiny rebel armies because the comp will lose the batle for you or give a phyrric victory.

crazybastard
05-30-2005, 03:46
why can Sparta the only city to produce Spartan Hoplites?? I want my other cities to have them too...(sob)

IliaDN
05-30-2005, 05:17
There is so called troop resource some provinces have this feature for some sp. troops ( for ex. Sparta and Syracuse have spartan resources , so it is possible to train spartans there when all requirements for them are completed ). :bow:

Franconicus
05-30-2005, 10:19
My African army is still busy there. After defeating the Carthagians and fighting riots they are now busy fighting Numidian invasians. So I had to start the invasion of Italy without them. Taking the Brutii home towns was very easy. I attacked simulateously with two armies and took both towns. Now the refresh and will then go north. I send another army straight to Rome. Senate garrison was very weak but I was taken by surprise by two big armies in the country. So my army was destroit. I had two 10* generals. One was killed at Rome - but he was old anyway.

Who is interested in a Brittania Challange Game? With some extra rules to improve difficulty level!

IliaDN
05-31-2005, 04:25
You got my attention.

orcorama
05-31-2005, 05:31
sounds interesting but i dont know what that is

Franconicus
05-31-2005, 09:45
Take a look at the Entrance Hall.

IliaDN
05-31-2005, 14:42
:charge: :charge: :charge: :charge: :charge: All hands to the Entrance Hall. :duel: :duel: :duel: :duel: :duel: :duel: :duel: :duel:

orcorama
05-31-2005, 16:04
ah
now i see
sounds fun althogh im just an average joe at R:tw ill it a shot

Ianofsmeg16
06-05-2005, 15:20
one question.....if you ally with the senate and all of the roman factions (after withdrawing from syracuse and mking it rebel) would the romans not attck you? just wondering cos its annoying when trying to get rid macedon

katank
06-05-2005, 16:45
It's hard for the AI to not break the alliance. Besides, the Brutii would most likely go after Thermon.

I find it quite easy to smash the Romans at the same time as the Macedonians.

Ianofsmeg16
06-05-2005, 17:13
it's not the battles it's the multi-tasking. maybe i should just rush them all ~:cool:

katank
06-05-2005, 21:04
You should. I term those strats the octopus, smashing out in all directions.

This is best done with Carthage, Gaul, or Greek Cities due to diverse geographic holdings. I'm also trying this with Seleucia and having some success at striking into Egypt, Greece, and Parthia all within the first 2-3 turns.

Garvanko
06-07-2005, 16:39
Militia are just not good enough.
I actually think they are a pretty good unit.

katank
06-07-2005, 18:07
They are your bread and butter unit for the first 5-10 turns. They help build my early empire. Stack em up and guard their flanks and they do well as an anvil.

Just don't expect them to hold forever.

CMcMahon
06-08-2005, 08:34
I've found that a general, eight units of armored hoplites NOT set to phalanx unless cavalry is coming, any cheap infantry unit (peasants even) for busting down the gate with a battering ram, four archers, and six militia cavalry are pretty much unstoppable (the peasants aren't useful at all in the open field, but I usually leave them at the front gate after breaking it, anyway).

For sieges, just set your hoplites up in standard formation, double lines, centered behind the ram. Single file the archers in a long line behind them. Have your general behind them. And flank with your cavalry. Assuming that there aren't peltasts on top of epic stone walls, your archers (set one to flame) and cavalry should wipe out most of the enemy archers. Once your peasants bust down the door, move them aside (and forget about the archers, too) and let your hoplites in. Whenever you get rushed by cavalry, have the first group or two switch to phalanx, and then surround them with your other hoplites. If there's hastati/principes/whatever, turn off the phalanx and run right into them; half the time you'll rout the enemy in less than ten seconds. When you get to the city center, line up your hoplites single file, and turn them in slightly at the ends to envelop the waiting enemy. Then move your cavalry through the town to hit them from behind from multiple directions, including the front (they jump right over the hoplites). Attack with your hoplites first, and after the enemy engages, alt-attack with your cavalry to go in with spears and wipe out the enemy.

For open field battles, line up your hoplites single file with phalanx off. Single file cavalry behind them. And then single file archers behind them. General in the back, preferably on top of a hill, because he likes to have a good view of an easy victory. March your units towards the enemy, turn on cantabrian circle, and pick a side for your cavalry to hit.Have the archers fire at the opposite side. Rush your hoplites in, turning phalanx on for wherever the enemy cavalry is. Run your cavalry around the side, disengage cantabrian circle, and alt-attack. Disengage your archers and have them concentrate on picking off any routing units.

I'd say that it works pretty damn well; I'm only 20 years into the game right now and I currently control all but two Macedonian cities, one Brutii city, one Scipii city, and all of the Julii cities (I haven't had a chance yet); I also took over Rome, giving me a total of 16 territories thus far, with a profit of 9-12k a turn.

Franconicus
06-08-2005, 11:35
CMcMahon,

A warm welcome to you! ~:cheers:

This is a very interesting approach! I used the militia hoplites in ansimilar was. I put them in squares, so they could easily turn around and have max. debth in all direction. I placed them at both wings. So I had good protection against flanking cav. I also used them as flanking units.

nameless
06-09-2005, 17:19
I actually think they are a pretty good unit.

Only if you use them correctly, I learned the hard way that hoplites can't be relied on for defending walls so I did what Caesar did in the movie Cleopatra, I let them into the city as all streets lead to the palace square. I just put a hoplite unit 2 ranks deep at the street where the enemy will come, then put another 2 rank deep by another. This basically makes an impenetratable porcupine as if the enemy passes through the first militia hoplites, which it does, it'll face another level of sticks and another. I stopped chariots, calvary, everything and I was outnumbered 10 to 1. The horsemen just ran through the first one but then they landed right in front of the second hoplite's spear. It was a massacre. Of coures in order to work your general needs to be behind the hoplites so the enemy will come to him that way.

Throughout the Greek campaign, the Pontus, Romans, Macedonians and Selecuids are all after my butt within 5 turns. I basically had my ports continously blockaded which screwed my economy for some time until I got some decent fleets to hold them off. I think personally you need to get yourself a strong and decent fleet as early as possible so you can defend your ports AND blockade the roman ports, which are a major threat to you including the macedonians. Another thing is as most people already said was that the Greeks are mainly defensive so when it came to taking settlements I just seiged it and waited for the enemy to either sally out or send in a relief army, usually it's a relief army in the next or so turn so I beat that army and the garrison together and I take the city afterwards. If needed, I park armies in enemy areas which need to be taken out and next turn the enemy would usually attack me. As usual, I park my army in a high rise area so my archers have a good shot and let the enemy come to me.

M/M
In 30 years the Roman and Macedonian ports are blockaded, the Scipii have been kicked off Syracuse and I'm maintaining an uneasy truce with the carthagians who still hold the island as well but I have a strong army to make sure they keep in line. The Brutii have one city left, the one above Apollina, the Macedonains are holding defensive. I'm currently trying to push the Pontus and Selecuids out of the Turkey area so I can blockade the mountains to prevent any further troops from getting in. The Greek cities are something that have to be taken slowly as your extremely spread out.

katank
06-09-2005, 22:50
@nameless, stacked phalanxes are indeed powerful.

Blockading ports isn't that powerful. Go take their cities instead. Let the AI win the naval arms race and then laugh when all their fleets turn rebel since all their cities are yours.

Greeks can be very offensive. Hoplites are one of the best level 2 inf units around. Just turn off phalanx to maneuver. Flanking or rear attacking with a phalanx results in a sweet phalanx sandwich which annihilates most things.

Armoured hops are also tough mofos. They are practically invulnerable to arrows and work well even out of phalanx due to good defense and decent melee.

nameless
06-10-2005, 20:07
@nameless, stacked phalanxes are indeed powerful.

Sure are but as the enemy gets stronger you might need to get a stronger hoplite unit to do the job.



Blockading ports isn't that powerful. Go take their cities instead. Let the AI win the naval arms race and then laugh when all their fleets turn rebel since all their cities are yours.


Well I don't want to destroy the romans this early in the game, not to mention I want to have a decent rival to fight on later. I would leave them alone but if I do, then they'll send fleet after fleet after me to blockade me so instead I blockade them. Speaking of which, blockade means nothing can get in or out of the port right? Because I blockaded this Brutii port but they can still build ships and have those ships leave and drop off troops elsewhere! Is that a bug or can you actually do that?

I'm thinking of going the Hun way and raze rome to the ground and then give it back to them to "Bring them back in line" :whip:


Armoured hops are also tough mofos. They are practically invulnerable to arrows and work well even out of phalanx due to good defense and decent melee.

I'm beginning to think their more better suited to combat than relying on Spartans.

katank
06-10-2005, 22:49
True, that's why you scale up the hoplites.

Stacked Militia hops can take hastati and you need hoplites for principes etc. Typically, by stacking hoplites, you can beat their unit which is a tech level higher.

In 1.2, there is a bug which allows ships to leave ports under blockade without fighting the blockading force which is why it is useless.

Use armoured hops as the backbone for bulk, they train in a turn, are tough, and are not vulnerable to missiles.

I use Spartans for both reserve duty and flanking.

Turn off their phalanx mode as they function as swordsmen well also. Have them crash into the rear of units pinned by armoured hops and it's usually insta rout. You should not even have time to make a phalanx sandwich before the enemy are completely owned.

nameless
06-10-2005, 23:19
So armoured hoplites are as good as legionaries in hand to hand combat? Just want to clarify.


In 1.2, there is a bug which allows ships to leave ports under blockade without fighting the blockading force which is why it is useless

Alright I'm gonna raze that Brutii town to the ground, teach those fools a lesson. :smash:

CMcMahon
06-11-2005, 00:30
I love regular hoplites. I just fought a battle with two undermanned groups of archers, two generals (one was a bribed Gaullic family member that I was moving to Ariminium), a couple of undermanned militia cavalry, and five regular hoplites, in all, about 400 men.

Between turns, they got attacked by an 800-man army of Gaul, including swordsmen, and three full-strength cavalry units.

In the end, I had 300 men left, and they had 35. I love doing the "phalanx horseshoe" manuever.

katank
06-11-2005, 22:30
Armoured hops have equal stats to legionaires of 9/22.

The spear only has a lethality/speed of .73 and will lose out to the sword when in melee.

However, when in phalanx, they gain the advantage and will definitely win frontally (note: stretch out the phalanx so that they don't get auto-flanked). Default depth for phalanxes gets wrapped around and destroyed.

nameless
06-12-2005, 00:26
So the 9/22 is the same damage that both the spear and sword can inflict then? I've always been confused with those stats.

I just defended Apollina from a 20 army Brutii army; 4 Militia hoplites, 1 Missile calvary, and 1 armoured hoplites. It was a total massacre, when up against stronger enemies like the romans you'll need a couple more men to do it and at least one trump card. Once the romans started routing my calvary(Missiles, one of the weakest units IMO) went ahead and slaughtered several legions in one. I only lost like 30 guys, the romans lost nearly 95%.

There are times though on open battle fields where if your defending make a box with the Phalanx and put a couple archers in there, it can resist almost any attack thrown at it if you do it right.

katank
06-12-2005, 00:51
Boxes aren't that great. Half hexagons work better. Corner camp for maximum advantage.

9 is attack and 22 is total defence armour and all.

swords are wielded at a faster speed than spears and hence have a small advantage.

When armoured hops fight out of phalanx, they use their little sword/knives but then only have 7 attack.

When in phalanx, the formation can keep the Romans from closing in melee.

Make the story short, without accounting for pila, armoured hops can kill legions with ease frontally in phalanx mode but get killed with phalanx turned off.

Deus ret.
06-12-2005, 15:13
not necessarily. When I fought the Senate army just outside of Rome, their 7 family members really gave me some hell....this I had expected but the real problem was that my armoured hops couldn't cope properly with the heavy Roman infantry. Of course, the Triarii were no big challenge, but the nasty thing were their experienced & upgraded Principes: When the hops attack them, these darn Romans just don't close in for melee (where they would be pinned by the spears) but instead stay out and do so until they have thrown all their javelins at you. They hurt even armoured hops, so when they attack finally, they outnumber the hops and give them a tough fight; and if you decide to switch off phalanx and do a real charge to stop killing them only by ones and twos, their swords are superior to yours. In the end I won, but with very heavy losses...despite having a 9-star-general or something....
nevertheless, armoured hops definitely rule. Spartans are only good for flanking (as you mentioned) or for true emergencies because of the troubles one has to replenish their numbers.

katank
06-12-2005, 16:26
That's why peasant come in handy.

I'm absolutely serious. Have 2-3 units of peasants in loos formation just to absorb the pila. Roman infantry pila hurts like hell.

Park peasants in front of them and if they charge then run. Usually they throw pila at the peasants.

Don't ever go out of phalanx to engage. Just run up real close and enable phalanx then tempt them to charge you.

nameless
06-14-2005, 17:32
My typical army for greeks is usually simliar to romans. 4 Archers(Creten if possible), 1 general, 6 calvary, 9 armoured hoplites.

Though I never lost too many hoplites to Roman troops who throw their javelins before charging(THeir ammo really isn't that much). I just have archers behind the hoplites to give supporting fire and send my calvary around the enemies to take out any seige weapons or anything else, I usually have 3 hoplites defending the flanks. Personally I find Hoplites > any infantry unit.

Funny though one time a principle unit was in my rear and charging so I took all 4 archers to fire at them at once. ~D It was funny, they were massacred like crazy. Let's see, 4 units x 80 = 320 arrows coming down at you, upgraded as well.

Greek armies work best when your on the defensive personally, especially if your on a bridge or in a city. I wasted a Julli and Senate(Reinforcements) army on a bridge. I just placed my hoplites 2 lines deep and behind each other with archers on their flanks protecting the bridge. If it's done right you'll have a huge pile of dead romans in front of you lines ~D

I suffered no casualties. My archers took out their archers before coming into range and my calvary took out their seige weapons before running back to the bridge.

RollingWave
06-16-2005, 16:57
The key to success with teh Greek cities is exploit the phalanx and the AI stupidity to the max.

In Syracus and Asia minor, just build 6-8 units of miltia hoplits, and when they seige you, don't worry bout a thing, just wait and let them assault you, when they do put all ur men in the central square, the retarded AI will ram themself against the spearwall with junk units and then the chainrout will rout even the elite onces... exploit this to the max and you can easily hold on to all ur holdings against non phalanx armies.

Focus on taking the Balkans early, in Sciliy wait till the Romans and Carthigians have all wasted their army then make ur move, on Asia minor it is probably wise to wait until you have the Balkans under ur control, as you will need relief armeis from elsewhere if your going to advance in that direction. (though u could gamble a little by taking the rebel city north of u ASAP and then hope u can muster enough hoplits in both towns before Pontus come knocking)

After getting through the early stage you can just bribe everyone... serious

nameless
06-16-2005, 17:30
Yeah but that takes the fun out of exterminating the population and looting.

katank
06-16-2005, 19:16
Actually, bribing everything that you see is no longer viable in 1.2. You can only bribe every other thing that you see.

pezhetairoi
06-21-2005, 02:15
In Syracuse etc, they don't assault you, just starve you out... When I was in Messana (admitted, different city) the Carthaginians sent everything they had on the island at me and I had to sally to attract them to the gates, and even then they refused to enter the gates to ram my spearwall, I had to send my hoplites out where they disappointingly fought with swords. If you'll look at the earlier posts you'll see how close it was. And katank, not true :-) I'm on 1.2 but the Greeks are so bloody rich most of the time I can bribe anything I see :-D

katank
06-21-2005, 23:27
That they are. Still, sometimes it's more cost effective to factory produce hoplites and then just autocalc your battles.

Equally saving of your time and actually cheaper.

Before 1.2, bribing was definitely more cost effective.

pezhetairoi
07-05-2005, 02:06
Autocalc in RTW is sheer blasphemy, lol. I'd fight all my battles no matter how pointless or sure-win they are, because I have to beat myself--no autocalc is going to reflect my true ability, or what is realistic :-P

Garvanko
07-05-2005, 16:03
The key to success with teh Greek cities is exploit the phalanx and the AI stupidity to the max.

In Syracus and Asia minor, just build 6-8 units of miltia hoplits, and when they seige you, don't worry bout a thing, just wait and let them assault you, when they do put all ur men in the central square, the retarded AI will ram themself against the spearwall with junk units and then the chainrout will rout even the elite onces... exploit this to the max and you can easily hold on to all ur holdings against non phalanx armies.

Focus on taking the Balkans early, in Sciliy wait till the Romans and Carthigians have all wasted their army then make ur move, on Asia minor it is probably wise to wait until you have the Balkans under ur control, as you will need relief armeis from elsewhere if your going to advance in that direction. (though u could gamble a little by taking the rebel city north of u ASAP and then hope u can muster enough hoplits in both towns before Pontus come knocking)

After getting through the early stage you can just bribe everyone... serious
Agree with all that. Also don't underestimate the usefulness of their Militia Cav. These are great skirmisher units and essential in the early-mid game.

pezhetairoi
07-06-2005, 01:04
It depends, however. In my Greek campaign I quickly took down Messana, but the Carthaginians came and just besieged me. They didn't assault. So I had to reload the game from 4 turns before and sally one unit to lure them to the gates, and for some confused reason I decided to hold the gate instead of letting the Carthaginians through to hit my phalanx, taking 80-90% casualties before routing the Carthaginians.

Anyway, my point is, sometimes the AI doesn't assault, and then where would you be?

Franconicus
07-06-2005, 10:18
Take Messana asap. With a little luck you can take it during the 1st turn. Carthage will besiege Syracuse, then. Go and move your army from Messana to threaten Lilybaeum, the they will withdraw from Syracuse. Then built a fortress between Lily and Syra and built up an army for the final attack.

[QUOTE=pezhetairoi]It depends, however. In my Greek campaign I quickly took down Messana, but the Carthaginians came and just besieged me. They didn't assault. So I had to reload the game from 4 turns before ...
[QUOTE]
Pez, you are a reloader? :furious3: That explains why you are able to win so fast. ~D

pezhetairoi
07-07-2005, 01:05
No, that was a test to see. I fought the battle once, and saved, then decided to see what would happen if I hadn't. I don't reload except when I'm testing things... :-D So I'm innocent! I won so fast not because of reloading, but because of liberal bribing of rebel armies made up of militia hoplites and hoplites and cretan archers. That gave me about two fullstacks' worth of new troops in the first 10 turns.

bubbanator
08-19-2005, 20:21
I just started my Greek campaign 2 days ago. It has been a very fun campiagn. Early on, I took Messana and built a fort so that the Carthys couldn't get to Syracuse. Over in Greece, I took Corinth and Athens then proceded to work my way North. I crushed the small Brutii invasion when they decided to come. I was planning to work my way farther into Greece and Turkey when something caught my eye. The Carthaginians had left Lilybalium virtualy undefended. One general was in the city and that was it. I took the city and started building up for an invasion of Capua to take out the Scipii (they had already sent a half stack to try to take back Messana)

Over in Turkey, I had gotten an alliance with Pontus. I then noticed that Nicomedia, Sardis, and Halicarnassus could be bribed for around 5000 each including the entire army inside. My treasury was good so I took the offer and quadrupled my territories in Turkey in one turn without losing a single man. I then began building up for an invasion of Pontus.

Back in Greece, I was working my way North and had finnished off the Macedonians and taken several rebel provinces. I stoped to see what to do next with my armies. Thrace looked like a nice target so I moved my 3 half stack armies right outside of their 3 cities. I took them all the next turn. Greece is secure for now.

While all of this was happening, I had launched my invasion army. The mission was not to take and hold the Roman towns, but to finish off the Scipii, Brutii, and the Senate. I marched on Capua (which had 2 family members and 2 groups of histatii) and took it easily. I exterminated and retrained my troops. I didn't have a large enough army to take on the full Senate army. However, about half of it was lead by a capitan who was running around randomly. I bribed him and made my move on Rome. I took the city without much trouble. I retrained and built a group of Armored Hoplites. A large Julii army was headed my way, so I evacuated the city and headed south to take out the Brutii. They had never really built up again after I had wiped out their invasion force so they had virtualy no one in their cities. I took Croton, then Tarentum. The Julii had taken Rome.

My invasion of Pontus went very well. Their main field army had been wiped out by the Selucids. I was planning to have 2 armies to take their 2 main cities, but with their main army out of the way, I could divide my 2 armies into 3, hire some mercs, and take all 3 or their cities in one turn. It worked perfectly. I then proceded to take Tarsus and Antioch from the Selucids.

So here I am now, with all of Sicily, Greece, and Turkey under my control. I am poised for an invasion of Carthage, a push into the heart of the Middle East, an offensive into Dacians territories, and an island hopping campaign. My economy is going great and my family members are breeding like rabbits.

I think that I will also slowly rebuild my army that is sitting in Tarentum and recapture all of the cities in Italy. My eventual goal is to control every port city in the Mediteranian.

My only gripe is that my family members aren't extaordinary. They aren't corrupt of anything but none of them seem to ever have any stats over 6. That could be because I don't have to use them in combat much. In fact I rarely do at all except for killing archers and chasing routers. I would use them more but I don't need to, and I don't have a cavalry force to back them up. In the beggining, I focused too much on getting armored hoplites (which rock btw) and forgot to build stables that could produce greek cavalry...

I have also found that the rumors are true...everyone does hate you as the Greeks. At one point, I was at war with Pontus, Carthage, Thrace, Selucids, and all four Roman Factions. But the beggining is the hardest part. Everything hinges on if you can take the settlements you need at the begging.

***UPDATE***

Well I just finished up, and then kept going...

After Italy was secured, I began building up for an offensive into Gaul. The Germans had made a drive down into Gaul early in the game and had split the Gauls in to two parts. The easter section was made of Segsta, Patavium, and Iuvavuam. I sent my armies and took all 3 of the cities. My empires in Greece and Italy were finally connected.

I wanted to finish my war with the egyptians. By this time, I had alrady taken Sidon and Damascus. I had a large naval force with which I could blockade all of the egyptian ports. I built up 2 large armies in Greece and put them in boats to head over. I also built one large army in the Middle East to take the heavily deffended city of Jerusalem. One of my invasion armies took Sidon and then moved across to take Bostra then move to Petra. The other army landed at Alexandria but went past it to take Memphis first so that I could have the Pyramids. From there, I retrained and took Alexandria and Thebes. Then I realized that they had Swia so I had to take that too...

Over in Turkey, I invaded armenia just for the fun of fighting their famed horsemen. I knew I had the advantage in the streets so I beseiged both of their cities on the same turn. I took the cities without too much hassel. Horse archers charged me after firing just a few volleys. I rebuilt my armies and pushed southeast to finish off the Selucids at Hatra and Selucia. After I took Selucia I realized that I had all 7 wonders of the world ~D

Some other settlements that I took were Caralis, Palma, Cyrene, Kydonia, Carthage, Thapsus, Campus Scythii, Chersonesos, and Tanis.

8 more settlements and I will have every settlement with a coast on the Mediteranian Sea! I wonder if that will be good or bad for trade. Either way, i'm so freaking rich that it doesn't really matter any more.

Taurus
08-20-2005, 01:14
Cool bubbanator ~:cheers: Glad your campaign is going well and everyone was my enemy too in my Greek campaign.

Good luck in the rest of your campaign :bow:

gmjapan
09-23-2005, 11:05
A lot of great advice on here for the Greek campaign!
The unit i find most overlooked when playing as Greek Cities is the enemy spy. Yup, the bad guys spies...

I came to this conclusion after trying to hold onto Syracuse. There are Carth and Skippy spies in your city and no way to build your own any time soon to make life difficult for them staying there.
So when you get sieged (by both, usually one after the other on the same turn!) the gates are open.

I used to think the flippin walls were broken as the gates were never shut! But I learned to love it. The enemy drops all its siege equipment and runs in. Make a U shape with hoplites and get some skirmishers behind and to the sides etc, etc.

What it all boils down to is you never have to rely on hoplites on the walls and covering multiple ladders, towers, and the gate. They all go to one entry point. Magic. I got sieged on my 3rd turn so I never got any fancy units beyond what I could already build. Beat back the vastly superior armies with minimal losses and then take both towns with their now minimal garrison. Mop up any stagglers and Sicilly is yours in 3 turns!

I just wish they would pour the darn boiling oil!!

GreatEmperor
09-26-2005, 16:36
Yes you are right but be sure that you make a second row of hoplites behind the other hoplites so that the enemy never has the chance to break through. Also use skirmishers but no archers because they would kill your own soldiers. Eventually you can set some archers on the walls to weaken the enemy.

Alexanderofmacedon
09-27-2005, 22:39
If you are the Romans, the Greeks are easily destroyed in my opinion.

Not to mention the fact that they are scattered by the Macedonian army, but they have nothing besides Phalanx from some of the battles I fought them with.

Emperor Aurelius
09-27-2005, 22:45
Ok congratulations.You are playing the Greek cities which are one of the most fun factions to play as in the game.

ALright you start out iwth the following cities:

-syracuse
-thermon
-sparta
-rhodes
pergamum

Not much right?First thing you must do is put all of your resources into making roads and farms and ports.BUT make sure on your first turn you put some resources to producing more phalanx in syracuse.Keep improivng your economy for 2 turns then start producing a few hoplites in sparta.Maybe 2 more regiments of hoplites.Then attack corinth and use a battering ram to take down the city.An direct assualt wont be that costly because there are only 128 soldiers in Corinth I beleive.So take corinth and use that as an army build up center.


Syracuse:In your 3rd turn rome will attack.DO NOT SALLY OUT.THey will launch a direct attack.If you win carthage will launch a direct attack.If you win that rome will launch another attack.

Heres the attack:

Rome first attack:they will come at you with a seige ladder and a battering ram.Have your archers take down the ram using fire arrows.DO NOT LET THAT RAM BREACH YOUR GATES OR YOUR DEAD!The seige ladder regiment will attack and get some histati and velites on your wall.Do not worry these arent much of a problem.Get at least 1 regiment of hoplites and 2 regiments of militia hoplites to deal with them.YOu only have 2 regiments of hoplites so try not to squander them.
Carthage will attack in the same way.Once again do not let them brfach your gates or there 3 calvary regiments and one regiment of elephants will tear you to shreads.

Rome will attack a 2nd time.They will attack with a battering ram and a seige ladder and sometimes a seige tower altho they miught save this for their 3rd attack.

Now why do I want you to build hardly any reinforcment soldiers for syracuse?Because you WANT them to attack you.At this stage it is important to not launch a full scale attack against sicily to occupy the whole island.You want greece and you want Carthage to not fall apart to quickly.Cuz if Carthage falls then the scipii are going to invade greece.You want to make attacking syrcuse as costly as possible for the romans.You want to lose the war in sicily.BUT you want to take several thousand roman soldiers down with you.I did this.Just hide behind my walls.I beat back one carthaginian attack and 2 roman attacks but a 3rd roman attack took me down.But the romans took far heavier losses in their assualts.

While holding sicily take Athens and the larissa.Now why is it so fun to fight macedon when your greece?Bribery.If you send a diplomat there soldiers will join your army!I got an army of 8 macedonian units to join me.So having soldiers in greece is never a problem.Keep a few diplomats there.Including one special diplomats to fight the romans.You are weak.You cannot take on rome just yet.You need the area from sparta to balzora(north of thessalonica) under your control.Once done with that assemble an army and take apollonia from the Brutii.

NOTE:DO NOT MASSACRE ANY POPULATONS IN GREECE WHEN YOU CONQUER A CITY.The people are already happy to have you rid them of the macedonian oppression and they wont rebel.Next its time to advance.By now im guessing you have lost syracuse but gave the scipii heavy casualities.Advance all of your cities and expand your army.Invade crete.That island if filthy rich.Now you want 3 attack groups.One to head north of apollonia nad take salona up in dalmatia.The other you want to get into thracia and take down byzantium.Send a diplomat up there incase the large thracian army overwhelms you.

The 3rd must be sent to turkey.Make peace with the seleucids and if you have any extra gold give it to them.You want the selecuids as an ally.Take nicodemia and halicar.Then go into azyrc or whatever that city in central turkey is called.Take it from pontus and then give it tot he seleucids.

Now I cannot stress this enough...ANNIHLATE PONTUS.They are the most traitorous empire in the whole game.They will make peace with you and then break it.They want peace?Sure accept it to buy time.But get a strong army ready in turkey because once they have taken all of rebel turkey over they are coming for you and the seluecids.

Fund your seleucid allies.I send them shipments of moeny and the occaisonal city too.Usually just a city here or there that I took from the pontus.Retake ALL of sicily.By now you should be producing Spartan hoplites.From sicily its a short hop to carthage which is probably under scipii control.You do not need to completly destroy scipii.By takeing sicily and carthage there economy is going to go negative.

And from there on there are many possibilities in whom to attack next.I recomend attacking cyprus and taking out either Egypt or the Romans.

Craterus
09-28-2005, 15:32
You say all about Romans bringing ladders to the first attack etc. But there is a degree of random. I've seen Carthage attack Syracuse before the Romans in one or two of my campaigns..

There is a degree of random and you can't produce a step by step of exactly what is going to happen.

Seamus Fermanagh
09-28-2005, 16:35
Good strategy points and discussion throughout.

Question for the grecophiles:

How do you conduct an effective siege assault using greek forces in the early and early middle game?

Once you have onagers, the basic tools are in place, but...

Hoplites seem to be poor tools for scaling or ramming, and peltasts/slingers/archers can clear walls but are less useful for taking them. Aside from hiring Bastarnae and the like, how do you get the right troops in the right place to make the siege assault effective. Its the one instance where a greek "offense through defense" field battle approach isn't readily available.

Seamus

Garvanko
09-28-2005, 17:38
Will you really need let alone get onagers in the early to middle game?

Seamus Fermanagh
09-28-2005, 20:29
No, I was asking for effective greek siege assault tactics for when you don't have them (early/early-mid).

Seamus

GreatEmperor
09-29-2005, 09:25
If the enemy has got wooden walls you haven't got much choice than a battering ram, but if you plan to siege a city with stone walls, just siege and wait for them to sally or to attack you, if they attack you, you will never lose because the hoplites are such a good defending troops that it's almost impossible for the enemy to win.

Magraev
09-29-2005, 12:36
Remember that even if you do intend to starve the enemy out it's always a good idea to build a couple of siege-towers.

First you may have to take the city square even with all enemies defeated, and that's hard if you didn't remember to follow the routing enemy forces into the city (or killed them all outside). Otherwise you get a draw - you get the city, but your general may get a bad trait (indifferent commander).

Second you can actually use them as weak artillery - put a unit in them on fire-at-will and they will shoot at the sallying enemies.

GreatEmperor
09-29-2005, 14:13
Great plan! Thanks for the tip ~:)

NeoSpartan
10-02-2005, 21:21
My campain is goin OK, Macedon is dead, but gave away Syracuse (after a few battles, got tired of it).

Anywho, my problem is that I CAN'T GET ANY ALLIES! I am at war with everyone on my borders. Rome, Puntos, Selunid, Egypt, and Thresia. I can only negotiate Trade agreements, and NOBODY wants an alliece.

:help:

Craterus
10-02-2005, 21:24
Anywho, my problem is that I CAN'T GET ANY ALLIES! I am at war with everyone on my borders. Rome, Puntos, Selunid, Egypt, and Thresia. I can only negotiate Trade agreements, and NOBODY wants an alliece.

:help:

That's normal when being the Greeks. You have lotys of enemies, and other factions don't really want lots of enemies, so it'd be easier if they didn't associate with you, let alone call you their "friend".

rotorgun
10-03-2005, 04:10
One area of strategy open to the Greek Cities, due to Hellas being essentially a giant penninsula, is the use of sea power. By building ports into shipyards and dockyards as rapidly as possible, seapower allows Greece to project her project her influence enormously. After securing the Greek mainland cities and procuring a temporary truce with Macedonia, I was able to stop the Roman invasions of the western coasts by intercepting her armies at sea. Yes it was expensive. Surely I had to go on the defensive in the east for some time. In the long run, however, the Romans were unable to compete with Greece on the seas while trying to conquer her usual run of enemies. Once I drove the Roman navies from the Adriatic and the western Mediterranian seas a close blockade of her ports in
Italy, Africa, and Sicily seriously crippled the Romans. Not only were their armies unable to embark, but the Roman economy was seriously hampered by the loss of overseas trade. (This was the main cause of the Punic wars against Carthage if my history is not to hazy)

Don't think that this was an easy way to get out of fighting on land at all. There was still plenty of fight left in the Roman factions. Aside from the Briton tribes, they are by far the most persistent enemies in the game. It is just that much of their vaunted land strength can be neutralized by enticing them into a naval contest. After putting the lid on the Italian Supermafia, Shift your focus east. Finish off Macedon, and then take on the Dacians followed by the Thracians. When possible, invade Anatolia, as the cities are rich by this time and you will be ready to eliminate Pontus and the Selucids as they are usually weakened by fighting with each other and the Egyptians.This leads me to say a few words about Egypt.

Egypt, by the time I was drawn into fighting them, (they attacked my navy of course) had built a cosiderable empire by eliminating first the Parthians, and then the Selucids. I came into conflict with them as I expanded against Pontus, whom they were fighting. After that, the fight was on! Having trained her forces to a high degree of experience and equipped them with the latest armor and weapons, Egypt was a force to be reckoned with. If you want to experience punishment, try your western soldiery against a force of Pharoahs
Spearmen backed up by his Archers, all sporting plenty of silver chevrons, swords and shields for quality. Allied with plenty of fast moving Cavalry and Chariotry, also well experienced, these armies are almost unstoppable with a Greek army woefully deficient in Heavy Cavalry and decent light infantry. The deserts and passes of the Cilician Gates were heaped with the bodies of the slain from these deadly encounters. I only succeded in taking some of the cities in Syria and Palestine by enticing Egypt into a fight to the death over the entrances to Antioch. Even when I defeated her armies in the field, my armies were left in ruins for many turns.

While holding off Egypt, I was eventually able to finish of the Romans, and take on the Gauls for the win. It was actually pleasant to be fighting the plain old, predictable Barbarian hordes. Much has been written on fighting them, so I won't bore everyone with details on how to win against them. I would sure appreciate someone else's ideas on effective strategy and tactics against the Egyptians.

One more thing about finishing off Rome. An advantage that developed during the naval war was that I never did have to completely eliminate the Scipii. I cleared the Italian mainland by naval assault supported by a land attack from Illyria, finishing off the Julii, and the Senate in the process. (Well, I did have to take the little Island of Palma to finally eliminate the Julii) After this I sealed off North Africa, all the way to the Atlantic, and then stormed Sicily with another,two pronged, naval invasion led by some Spartan hoplites, in company with some onagers and ancillary troops. It was rather comocal seeing all the Scipii armies gathering around the Carthaginian ports with nowhere to go. This is the beauty of a close blaockade. I wonder if Napoleon
pondered this on the Island of Elba as he walked the lonley hours along the beaches staring out to sea after his defeat?

rotorgun

cesar the mighty
10-06-2005, 04:11
:charge: i started tough. i took corinth, athens and then rinforced my army to attack the romans. as im better at defending, ijust stood in front of the others army face so then it attacked

GreatEmperor
10-06-2005, 18:36
For the Alliance Problem: You should make peace with all of those your at war with, so they become Neutral. After that it's much easier to make allies since you don't have much enemies.

Emperor Aurelius
10-08-2005, 15:50
Well Seamus to be quite honest with you I cannot answer your question.Im no expert at seige assualt with the greeks.I reccomend building 6-7 ladder regiments of hoplite or a unit even better than that.Try and overwhelm the walls.WHen I was rome in the early campaign the Greeks actually nearly took a cityt from me in a direct assault.They used plenty of seige ladders and the sort.I lost 80% of my army trying to get them off my walls!MY histatii were actually no match for their spartan hoplites and even regular hoplites did some nice damage!

Spartans are the best for assault though.Armoured hoplites and regular hoplites will work too.As long as you have a large army.

Oh yes and you are correct (whoever said it) about the fact that I cant predict exactly how they will attack or what order the attack will be in.But thats what happened to me so I'm just sharing.BUt IRecommend you only buld 2 militia hoplites in syracuse.I like to see Rome lose 1600 men trying to take a city and kill 600 of my men....~:)

Emperor Aurelius
10-08-2005, 15:53
ALso rot brings up an intereseting point about the greek armies lack of good calvary.I noticed this.ALso there hoplites tend to be annoying due to the fact thatt hey are extremely unflexible....try that against the fast moving desert axemen and chariots...

bubbanator
10-08-2005, 17:01
Attacking doesn't have to be a disadvantage as the Greeks. I used it to my advantage several times when defeating an enemy quickly was of great importance.

As you advance your battleline towards the enemy, have your mercs and whatever cavalry you have on the flanks. Stop your line about 50 feet from the enemy. The enemy should charge you in which case you then have two options.

1) If your army is larger of close to the size of the enemy army, close the flanks and begin to encircle the enemy with your phalanxes and mercs on the sides of your line. Send your cavalry around to the rear of the enemy and slam into the center.

2) If the enemy has substancialy larger army than yours, instead of closing the flanks, you will want to refuse the flanks by slanting your edge phalanxes and putting mercs on the edges of those like this:
.............. _________
........... /...aaaaaa.... \
cc........m.......m..........m........cc

a = archers m = mercs c = cavalry
*I had to put all of the dots because the edit screen was being retarded and wouldn't line things up right. Disregard them.


The enemy will then procede to plow themselves into your elite phalanxes in the center of your line. They will be harrassed by archers and will be unable to get to them because of the semi-circle you made. Send your cavalry around the flanks and hit them in the rear, pinning them between your cavalry and a row of sharp pointy sticks.




As for a general stratagy, after you consolidate most of Greece and repel the Brutii incursion, you can make an invasion of Italy and finish off the Brutii then move on Capua to take out the Scipii and then rebuild and take on the Senate. After that, it is all about taking the offensive. Your lands are safe for now and you can begin offensives in all areas of the world. Push up into Gaul, take the rest of Greece and move north to unite your empire, assult Asia Minor and then you can attack the Selucids. After that, it is always fun to pincer the Egyptians. Have your armies push from the north and send an invasion force to pillage their main cities over near Alexandria.

Alexanderofmacedon
10-08-2005, 20:18
If the enemy has got wooden walls you haven't got much choice than a battering ram, but if you plan to siege a city with stone walls, just siege and wait for them to sally or to attack you, if they attack you, you will never lose because the hoplites are such a good defending troops that it's almost impossible for the enemy to win.

That's what I do, even as Romans. With the legionaries, the javelins thrown route a couple of enemy units before they hit my line. With those routs the morale of enemy drops and usually I win he battle with very few casualties...

rotorgun
10-08-2005, 21:43
Bubbanator,

Your formation is right on for the situation you described about being outnumbered. It was the only formation I was able to use against some of the superior Egyptian armies that attacked my Greek force. I especially like the use of mercenary infantry to guard the flanks and rear of the Phalanx line. I was trying the same formation, but using Heavy Peltasts instead. They are not as good in melee as the Barbarian Mercs, admittedly, but those units were not always availiable to the Greeks while fighting in the east. The only difficulty was transistioning this formation for pursuit once the enemy began to break. I had to keep toggling off the "Phalanx formation" icon so my Hoplites could keep up, and at the same time be ready to toggle it back on if the enemy was able to reform.

GreatEmperor
10-09-2005, 10:15
You don't need to put off Phalanx formation if you group the units. If you do that they will all walk the same speed. Just use some more cavalry and let them chase the units that are fleeing. The Hoplites will stay in Phalanx and everyone will keep their position. Be aware that you don't put the cavalry in the same group because if you order the whole group the walk and then order a few units to chase your whole group messes up.

rotorgun
10-09-2005, 14:48
Good advice GE,

In most situations using your cavalry to chase the routers is appropriate, as that is what they are designed for. There were a few battles, against armies with a large contingent of experienced units, that my cavalry was unable to keep up enough pressure on the routing units alone to keep the others from reforming. I found it helpful to have the main infantry line continuing to slog forward to discourage this tendency. I found that by grouping the phalanx as a seperate group I could get them to run as a formation when I toggled off the form phalanx icon. If the enemies main line tried to reform while my cavalry were off chasing some of their routers, especially other cavalry, I then simply ordered the phalanx to reform. This usually induced the enemy to rethink their plans of a rearguard action.

It was not the case in every situation, of course. I only intended to mention a peculiarity of the hoplite units. I also tend to give my entire army a doubletime command once I see the enemy attempt to withdraw. I then refine this by giving each unot or group a specific target or group of targets to chase. I found that this is not the most ideal approach with a phalanx line if I needed to keep formation.

rotorgun
10-09-2005, 14:55
Good advice GE,

In most situations using your cavalry to chase the routers is appropriate, as that is what they are designed for. There were a few battles, against armies with a large contingent of experienced units, that my cavalry was unable to keep up enough pressure on the routing units alone to keep the others from reforming. I found it helpful to have the main infantry line continuing to slog forward to discourage this tendency. I found that by grouping the phalanx as a seperate group I could get them to run as a formation when I toggled off the form phalanx icon. If the enemies main line tried to reform while my cavalry were off chasing some of their routers, especially other cavalry, I then simply ordered the phalanx to reform. This usually induced the enemy to rethink their plans of a rearguard action.

It was not the case in every situation, of course. I only intended to mention a peculiarity of the hoplite units. I also tend to give my entire army a doubletime command once I see the enemy attempt to withdraw. I then refine this by giving each unot or group a specific target or group of targets to chase. I found that this is not the most ideal approach with a phalanx line if I needed to keep formation.
:bow:
'[the Greeks] all raised a shout...then they were all running forward... clash[ing] their speaers and sheilds together. But the Persians, even before they were in the range of arrows, wavered and ran away' - Xenophon

Alexanderofmacedon
10-09-2005, 16:59
When your phalanx's are given to you in battle formation they are given in this sort of fassion:

---------
---------
---------
---------

That is not enough of a front line for a phalx unit. I spread them out into only two lines:

------------------------
------------------------

Then put lines of peltasts behind, to make depth good, for keeping cavalry from breaking lines.

------------------------
------------------------
==============
==============

In my opinion that's way better, then having deep units of phalanx.

Craterus
10-09-2005, 17:00
I do 3 rows per unit, if it's all infantry, but they withstand cavalry charges a lot better 4 lines deep.

Alexanderofmacedon
10-09-2005, 17:02
True, but if you have phalanx longer it is more useful for me. Not to mention the fact that I do have infantry 4 lines deep. The second two rows are just heavy peltasts.

rotorgun
10-10-2005, 16:12
You have an interesting suggestion for the phalanx; backing up the extended line with Heavy Peltasts seems intriguiging. I assume that you toggle off the default "skirmisher " mode? Do you do the same with the "fire at will " command, or do you preferr to command each HP unit to fire? It seems to me that by combining the two units in such a way one gets a sort of "legionary" unit with super long spears in front. The only question remains, what do you do about the flanks of such an extened line?

One of the main reasons that the Phalanx worked so well was the very depth of the formation giving it that forward impetous during the "Othismos Aspidon", or push of shields stage of melee combat. To quote Ploibius:

" those further back than the fifth rank [in a phalanx] cannot use thier pikes
[in a charge]...But those men by sheer pressure of their bodily weight in the charge add to its force".

Do the Heavy Peltasts in the rear make up for this lack of pushing power? The
Phalanx line you suggest could be too brittle to withstand the charge(Ephodos) of an similar force of Hoplites arranged normally. :book:

Rotorgun :charge:

bubbanator
10-12-2005, 21:02
I usualy set my phalanxes to 3 or 4 ranks depending on the situation and the type of hoplites that they are. You don't want militia hoplites 2 ranks deep. A group of pesants charging will break it in two. My stratagy for most battles is to draw the enemy into my center where my Amored Hoplites are waiting four ranks deep to withstand anything they throw at me while my flanking troops and cavalry hit them in the rear. Your line doesn't even have to be longer than their's for this to work either. If you present your center as the most obvious target, then that is where they will converge upon. Pin them between Greek Cavalry and Armored Hoplites, even elite units will rout in such a prediciment. Once they do you can just mash whatever's left of them into the ground with your cavalry.

rotorgun
10-13-2005, 03:25
Interesting points Bubbanator,

I can appreciate your approach to the use of the phalanx line. How do you propose to draw the enemy's army to attack your bristling line of spears? If I face such a line, I tend to attempt some type of indirect approach to lure the phalanx to manuever out of its sedate formation. If this cannot be done, than I will try to approach it in some type of uneven line, such as the Roman checkerboard formation. This will inevitably cause some of the phalanx units to move out of position. I then hit them in the flanks with my reserves in the second line.

Indeed, it is still a formidable infantry force to engage. I never underestimate its power to pin my army down in the center. It must be taken out by erosion-like an ant colony attacks. No?

Rotorgun

GreatEmperor
10-13-2005, 07:33
Thanks for the Advice Rotorgun, I don't know how but it seems like when I'm fighting hoplites and they're in phalanx formation they won't break up. No matter what I tried, until I used Onagers. It's the only way for me to break 'em up.

A few well shot fired projectiles... Ah Great :)

rotorgun
10-14-2005, 00:53
No matter what I tried, until I used Onagers. It's the only way for me to break 'em up.

A few well shot fired projectiles... Ah Great :)

I agree with you entirely about the Onagers.(Nasty kill ratios witha direct hit on a crowded Phalanx) I don't usually have those available with my main attack armies. I preferr to keep them in an artillery train behind the main front, then bring them forward for sieges. I did have them available for several defensive battles against the Egyptians. They countered by bring Heavy Onagers on in the next rounds. They were some awesome battles!

rotorgun

bubbanator
10-17-2005, 22:51
Interesting points Bubbanator,

I can appreciate your approach to the use of the phalanx line. How do you propose to draw the enemy's army to attack your bristling line of spears? If I face such a line, I tend to attempt some type of indirect approach to lure the phalanx to manuever out of its sedate formation.
Rotorgun

Yes, but fortunatly for us, the AI is too dumb to attempt a feint or a full flank attack~D

Plus, if you have mercs on the flanks, they should have a hard time getting around you, especialy if you have a reserve unit or two of mercs (like Thracian Mercs or Barbarian Spearmen) This usualy saves me when the entire AI line charges and begins to wrap around my forces. I send a reverve unit to help my other mercs while my sprearmen break the backs of the enemy main column. Plus if you throw in the effect of your cavalry, the effects are devestating and the battle is soon over because of chain routing even if the odds were heavily in favor of the enemy.

Seamus Fermanagh
10-18-2005, 00:57
Yes, but fortunatly for us, the AI is too dumb to attempt a feint or a full flank attack~D

According to other posts I have read, that is no longer true in RTW 1.3

bubbanator
10-18-2005, 21:16
Even if they do though, if your units are in guard mode and the flanks are refused, they won't be getting anywhere. Though I highly recomend a unit or two of mercs, preferably spearmen, in the rear to rush into any hot spots.

Shorttail
10-27-2005, 11:46
I find that at times the Roman Body Guards are darn tough. They managed to frontal charge right through my 5 deep ranks of militia hoplites even when I am playing easy/easy. My 2nd cohort of militia hoplites was down to 21 men by the first charge from a full body of 40 and that darn Roman heavy calvary suffered no casualties. Luckily for me, I managed to counter-charge the offending General and his bodyguards with my own general.

rotorgun
10-27-2005, 13:25
It's not so much that the Preatorian Cavalry are tough; they are, however, somewhat unrealistic historically speaking. It's more that Malitia Hoplites are, well...Malitia. As such, they represent hastily trained soldiers probably only recently taken from their soft cyber jobs in town. Without the benefit of the drill, and discipline of units like the Armored Hoplites they simply cannot stand.
I'm not sure what their defense rating is, but compare it with the Roman Heavy Cavalry attack factor and charge bonuses and you'll see why. I always try to give my malitia units some experience, if I can, prior to taking on elite troops. I know we don't always get that chance.

pezhetairoi
10-28-2005, 02:08
My approach to Greek siege warfare is to just go straight in for the kill. I assault with my hoplites as if I were Roman. After breaking the walls, I race my greeks into the breach out of phalanx, and deploy immediately within them with the phalanx mode on. Usually my practice is to make three breaches, the central one being the gate. The gate unit rushes in, forms a wide phalanx with back to the gate, and starts fighting, letting the enemy lap around his flanks. Then the other two hoplite units race in, form phalanx facing the central unit, and march to contact. Meanwhile my cavalry races in and if they're javelin units they shower javelins, and if they're shock units they lie in wait till the enemy starts to waver. Then the flanking hoplite units leave phalanx and disengage, and the cavalry pursue to the town square before disengaging.

That is the case for wooden walls, which is what you will tend to face in early game. Militia hoplites, in this case, are enough to do the job. The enemy won't hold long enough to do much damage. Of course, hoplites are even better. If you have archers, use them.

The town square endgame is fun in 1.2, since your hoplites can form up unmolested at the square's edges, then fire a salvo or two to bring the enemy charging into your spearhedge.

On stone walls I bring up towers and send my hoplites in to attack. The key is flexibility. Usually the enemy deploys at most 3 units on the walls, and that at walls directly opposite your army's deployment at the start of the assault. The simplest way to get rid of them is change your deployment and move assault operations to another gate, much further away, while leaving one tower/ladder in front of the old one. Use a militia unit, since that unit is out of the battle. His job is to occupy the enemy and prevent them from marching to deal with your troops. After this, immediately send two units to take the gate. Once captured, the unit further from the enemy's wall segment will race to capture a few towers on that side of the gate, while the unit closer to the enemy will march as far towards the enemy as he dares, capturing towers, and await the enemy attack. It will fight a holding action, with the reinforcement of the second unit that will be coming. Then when fighting has commenced, you will have bought time for the entire army to move into the gates. If you haven't broken the enemy contesting the gates yet, you suck. The trick here is an undignified hoplite rush. Send them through, infantry first, and as soon as they are through, no matter how disorganised they are, put them into phalanx. They'll hold long enough for the fire from the gates to remove their morale. Meanwhile your decoy unit at the old gates will have come up and struck the enemy on the wall in the rear. The outcome of this battle is now irrelevant. Whatever happens to your wall units, you mustn't look back at them. It's now on to taking out the units in the town square and holding it for 3 minutes.

In the field (though if I'm not wrong I have a post about it somewhere) I prefer to advance my phalanx to contact. The enemy usually charges once my phalanx comes close. If they are attacking I split my phalanx into 3 units and leave two as flank guard, with only a small force engaging the front.

hooray.This marks my return to super-long posts in the guides.

rotorgun
10-29-2005, 06:12
Thanks to Pezhetaroi for the intersting tips on Greek siege tactics. I'll give it a go next time I am playing them, or a faction similarly armed. Do you modify the tactics when Onagers and/or sapping points are used?

Seamus Fermanagh
10-31-2005, 03:40
Thanks Pez!

I think I asked about Greek Cities Siege assault eons ago in this thread. Yours is the first comphrehensive answer.

I wouldn't have thought the hoplites would be as flexible as sworders for that kind of assault, and that they would be in real trouble if caught half formed -- but your tactics address that implicitly.

Mouzafphaerre
10-31-2005, 04:23
.
No guide thread can be complete without the pics. (Made this up now! ~D)

Here is a sally, in which I enveloped the Roman army with my hoplite horde:

https://img443.imageshack.us/img443/1870/03486ff.th.jpg (https://img443.imageshack.us/my.php?image=03486ff.jpg)

What's not seen on the picture are my archers deployed on the gate. Their fire arrows brought half of the victory. (The ballista was a waste of unit space. It can't cross the gate or fire over the walls.)

I started with my peltasts, effectively eliminating the enemy velites and inflicting reasonable casualties on the hastati. Once out of ammo, I retired them to cover the left flank of the hoplite wall along with a unit of Samnites. The other Samnite unit is keeping the right flank.

The rest was basically point and click. I selected all fielded units and pointed them to the centre of the enemy line keeping the formation (Alt + Right Click). Almost at the same time, the enemy units, all at once, charged and entered within the archers' range. With the infantry already torn down by the peltast skirmish, and even more damaged by the arrowfire, the heavy cavalry and equite units were easy prey for my hoplites, with the flanks quasi secured and supported by my general.
.

pezhetairoi
10-31-2005, 06:19
I must also mention, it is also useful to bait the enemy out of the gate by capturing the gate on the walls, and sending in cavalry (one unit only) into the gate to charge the enemy, who will surely be attempting to retreat following the gates' commencing fire on them.

Then immediately retreat. The units, providing your horses don't run too far away too quickly, will follow out of the gate. Boiling oil and a phalanx placed in front of the gate will do the rest. Repeat ad infinitum with that cavalry unit, or rotate a few others, to complete the slaghter. Then walk in and take the town square. It works just as well. Never use infantry unless you have no choice, cos they are too slow.

NeoSpartan
11-04-2005, 01:45
Yo fellas I am confused I DL version 1.3 and I am paying 2 games one with the Germans and one with the Sel. Empire, but now I went to start a game with Greece (since I cannot Load my old game ~:mecry: ) and my units are cut by 1/2! My militia hoplites are 40, my archers are 40, and my Genera's Bguard are 12!!! WTF happened?? Is it something I did????


Need some back up.

pezhetairoi
11-04-2005, 02:35
heyy, I think you may want to check your unit scale? You might be playing on tiny scale, because 80 men per unit means you're on medium scale (someone correct me if I'm wrong). Just go into the advanced options to tweak the settings and I think you can have up to 160 men a unit on huge if you wanted.

Kickius Buttius
11-16-2005, 17:26
When playing as the Greeks, how do you handle the Eastern horse/horse archer cultures and not have your phalanx slowly cut ( or rather pierced by arrows) to death? I can't catch up with the horsemen and since they are in skirmish mode they can't be lured into a frontal charge on the Phalanx.

What do you all do?

Craterus
11-16-2005, 17:47
Don't go into the battle without missile (archers) support.

If it's only one unit of HAs, you can chase them to the edge of the map with Greek cav. That's assuming they have no other cav support.

Bonusmalus
11-17-2005, 17:51
Yes, Greek cavalry will do an excellent job against those horse archer. If you dont have them, the armoured hoplites can take a lot of damage before routing. You can also hire some mercenary cavalry.:charge:

Kickius Buttius
11-17-2005, 18:31
Thanks for the advice. I seem to have a hard time with horse archers in general. I played an H/H game as Pontus and did very well, with the exception that I was absolutely manhandled everytime I fought the Scythians. Maybe its a mental block...

pezhetairoi
11-18-2005, 06:13
This is from a purely theoretical point of view (the only time I played Greeks against Scythians they were perfectly happy to charge into my phalanx) but I believe when fighting the Scythians, do not engage the phalanx. That way when they charge you, they will get largely entangled in your melee hoplites. They will then be unable to extricate themselves and return to firing.

When fighting ranged cavalry, do not try to simply run him down. To catch ranged cavalry short of the map border you need to set traps. Fighting as or against HA factions requires a lot of artistic micromanagement of your cavalry, and frequent pauses. I have discovered that you have to concentrate at least 2 units of cavalry to one. My method was this: I charged at the archers while one unit went round to the side, then once the enemy retreated, the first unit would feign retreat to lure the enemy after him. This allows the second unit to get into his rear. Then the second unit charges, forcing the enemy to retreat...into the first unit, which then pins it while the second unit completes the charge and rout. Rinse and repeat.

When fighting them, it seems that all you have to do is catch the lagging-behind members of the unit, and the rest of the unit will (foolishly) come to his rescue. This means that as long as you catch one or two of them on the tail end during the pursuit, you have caught the entire unit. Warning though: this has not been tested fully on cherry vanilla stats. I play using my own stats-mod in which shock cavalry have 5 hit points, ranged have 4, cataphracts have 6, generals have 8, and cataphract generals have 9. Hence tail-end horse archers tend to survive long enough to alert the rest of the unit to come to their rescue.

When playing the Greeks against scythians, load up on Greek cav and militia cavalry. Seriously. Do not go in there with less than 2 units of archers and 6 units of cavalry. And when fighting with militia cavalry, DO NOT keep them on skirmish mode! If you will engage in a ranged duel you will lose badly because militia cavalry range is 50m and HA range is 120m. 'Nuff said.

I once tried a variant of Alexander the Great's tactics against the Scythians, and it worked rather spectacularly (though it took a bit of effort). I moved up my infantry as bait, phalanx in two lines, archers in centre and light troops thrown out on the sides. I just kept them marching forward to encourage the HA to lap around my flanks, while wide to the flanks a considerable distance away I had two wings of cavalry, arranged in cavalry. Equally far to the rear of my infantry I had the heaviest of my cavalry.

Infantry would advance until they reached around the centre of the map. At the same time the two flanking wings would race for the opposite corner of the map, effectively outflanking the enemy at the same time. The HA will tend to hang around the infantry as long as your cavalry stays out of range. Once a number of units go to the flanks and rear of your infantry (they will not charge) you form your hoplites into a circular phalanx with ranged troops in the centre. The flank cavalry will change formation to line and charge inwards to drive the HA onto the phalanx. THe lead unit will be the one furthest from where you started. In other words, it will cut off the retreat of the enemy HA and drive them into what had been the 'rear' of your infantry bait. As the flanking columns drive inwards the last heavy reserve will charge into the rear centre to catch and slaughter the HA that have been driven there by the flank cavalry, while your hoplites deal with the rest by running forward, then engaging phalanx after you have caught and pinned them down. You should be able to rout the entire army. Anything left standing can be caught and destroyed at leisure via the multi-unit trap system.

If the enemy fields axemen, they can be easily dealt with by your phalanx while your cavalry busies itself with getting into the enemy rear and driving them back on the phalanx circle. If the enemy is Parthian/Armenian, eastern infantry will rout off the battlefield in embarrassment as soon as your phalanx starts laughing at them.

Note, this long stream of text must be compressed into a very short time, because your cavalry will not be able to deal any damage to the enemy, and only can take his arrow hits until it closes within javelin/charge range. So it is somewhat risky. Which is why I say you should never go in with less than 6 cavalry units. Also, if you don't feel confident, channel all cavalry into the flanking columns. Never mind the third force, you'll just have to give up the decisive striking blow and rely on your phalanx as the deciding force.

So you see, phalanxes can still be of some use in the steppes :) Just make sure they are armoured. NO SPARTAN HOPLITES. The only armour they have is that ridiculous red robe. One unit of foot archers could take them to pieces before they closed half the arrow range.

Kickius Buttius
11-18-2005, 17:10
Excellent advice. I will try some of this and see how it goes. I appreciate all the help!

rotorgun
11-19-2005, 17:24
pezhetairoi
I once tried a variant of Alexander the Great's tactics against the Scythians, and it worked rather spectacularly (though it took a bit of effort). I moved up my infantry as bait, phalanx in two lines, archers in centre and light troops thrown out on the sides. I just kept them marching forward to encourage the HA to lap around my flanks, while wide to the flanks a considerable distance away I had two wings of cavalry, arranged in cavalry. Equally far to the rear of my infantry I had the heaviest of my cavalry.

I truly enjoyed reading this post, as it was one of the most informative I've read. You are a very astute historian my freind. Can you please tell me the historical source for this information. Was it from Arrian's Anabasis of Alexander? I would very much like to give it a try. Fascinating! I'll bet you are a fair hand at battle tactics Mr. pezhetairoi.
:charge:

A few more questions: Did you initially have your cavalry in column, and then afterwards deploy them into line? Were they deployed into a long line, like a dragnet to trap the HA, or a line with more depth? I sort of imagine a little of both approaches being used with some use of that great battle command and control technuiqe- the pause key.

pezhetairoi
11-25-2005, 06:26
I truly enjoyed reading this post, as it was one of the most informative I've read. You are a very astute historian my freind. Can you please tell me the historical source for this information.

Why thank you, being called a good historian is the best praise anyone can give me academically :bow: My source is JFC Fuller's The Generalship of Alexander the Great, which includes a study of all Alex's great battles, small wars (including the Scythian one), and sieges. He also includes diagrams. The Great Battle diagrams are detailed enough that he breaks down the army makeup to individual units, with their commanders' names. So you find out that there were Scythian Nobles at Gaugamela, and horse archers, as well as a token force of elephants.


I'll bet you are a fair hand at battle tactics Mr. pezhetairoi.

Well, not really. :) Sometimes my theorising doesn't work, and often my deployments aren't varied. The same double-line, advance to contact, second line saw out to flanks to absorb cavalry charges and cavalry countercharge, most of the time. No variation to that unless the enemy army's makeup necessitates a change. And besides with 4 units of cavalry on each flank working as a battering-ram there's no time to try strange new combinations... the enemy usually routs before my infantry reach it, since my battles always begin, a la Romans, with the cavalry charging. The Scythian deployment I supplied doesn't work all the time, and occasionally it is spectacularly unsuccessful. Playing as the Roman, the infantry battlebox completely missed the enemy and I was stuck in a deteriorating situation when the enemy's 5 HA charged my flank column with the other flank column too far away for assistance and my heavy cav desperately charging uphill to reach the enemy's flanks, arriving winded.


A few more questions: Did you initially have your cavalry in column, and then afterwards deploy them into line? Were they deployed into a long line, like a dragnet to trap the HA, or a line with more depth?

My flanking columns were initially in column, three abreast, with about 2 units' spacing between them. It's a dragnet, but a dispersed one that closes the inter-unit distance as the trap closes, assuming the trap manages to close. They were in column formation throughout, but when I had to close the trap with the unit-by-unit advance I micro-managed, both in ordering the advance and in wheeling them around. I don't generally recommend anything narrower than a three-row-deep unit front. Too deep, and the HA may slip through the gaps. Too wide, and...well, let's just say there may not be only HA on the battlefield. Once I had a Scythian Noble unit charge my closing in unit on 3 rows, and it was a damned close fight because that poor charged unit routed just after the other two flankers closed in on the noble posterior and routed it. If it had routed before, my flanking column would have been defeated in detail. As it was instead of a two-arm bear hug that battle, I could only pull off a one-armed version since the other arm reformed too late to trap the remaining HA who streamed off in withdrawal. The Nobles damned nearly broke through my light lancers because they were too thin, charge notwithstanding.

Kickius Buttius
11-30-2005, 17:43
Just ordered Fuller's book online. Looking forward to reading it. Are there any other books on tactics of the time period that you would recommend?

NeoSpartan
12-23-2005, 18:37
Man, I am playing the Greeks on VeryHard/VeryHard, and boy is that a challange. You really need to get creative and pay close attention to the ground, because the enemy units are stronger than yours. No joke, I had Macedonian Milita Hoplites beat Hoplites, just because my hoplites happen to be fighting at a slight upward slope.

So far, I have taken southern Italy and cannot take ROME unless I bring Spartan Hoplites. (the 4 Senate generals in there ROUTED 4 groups of Armored Hoplites, my general and 3 Greek Cavalry). And the Julii with their Pretorian Cohorts have made the push west almost a stalemate.

Oh and one tip for anyone playing agains Rome after Marian Reforms with Greeks. When you line up your phalanx, make sure there is NOT a gap in your line. (your phalanx has to be a solid line). Because eventually Pretorian Cohord will start eating your Armored hoplites thought the tiny gaps in your line.

Well I have another 2 armies to pushing to Northern Italy and a 3rd will start moving west again as soon as its units get retrained. I hope I can take a Julii citi now.

Hoplite of Sparta
12-24-2005, 03:16
I just started playing RTW again since it first came out, I haven't even stuck with a campaign long enough to finish it yet.

I'm having a blast with the Greeks though, phalanxes are alot of fun to use. It was slow going until I wiped out the Macedonians and built up an army to fend off the Brutii at Apollonia.

I abandoned Syracuse and used the army there to get a head start on Macedon. I'm not sure how far the Scipii have gone into Africa since I wasn't there to stop their progress, so that may come back to bite me later.

I lost Pergamum from an unexpected attack from Pontus, they went all the way through Seleucid territory (leaving it unharmed) just to get at me. I've decided to expand north and west rather than try to get a hold in the east. I still have Rhodes, and took Crete from the rebels (Cretian archers are awesome).

I just destroyed the Brutii, who turned out to be a pushover due to the massacre I gave them in Apollonia. For some reason they decided to train mass Town Watch instead of shipping over normal units, fooling me into thinking they had a huge army in Apollonia. Once my spy scoped it out for me and I realized it was all town watch, I immediately went in for the kill. It was ridiculous. I killed 1100+ Brutii and lost maybe 100 men. It was funny watching the town watch thrust themselves onto my armored hoplites spears.

I now have Sicily completely blockaded by my navy, and am preparing to send my army to get rid of the Scipii.

I definately enjoy playing Greece more than Rome, no senate to worry about, and much cooler units to play with.

Hoplite of Sparta
12-24-2005, 03:25
Also, sieging cities using Hoplites is so easy. Since its still a little early in the game, most cities still have wooden walls, which archers and peltasts can shoot over with ease.

What I've been doing is building 3 rams, putting skirmish units on them, and forming 3 columns consisting of 3 hoplite units each (best troops in front), and have them follow the rams up to the wall. Once the wall/gate is down, I order my hoplites just inside the gate/wall, and have the peltasts that were using the ram line up behind them and fire at will, all while my archers rain fiery death wherever they can. After the enemy routes back to the square, I advance my hoplites down 2 or 3 different streets to reach the square, followed by the general and or peltasts. Move in my archers for a few volleys to incite the enemy to charge, and watch as they suicide on my impenetrable hoplite walls.


So far no one has stood a chance.

rotorgun
12-24-2005, 21:31
Just ordered Fuller's book online. Looking forward to reading it. Are there any other books on tactics of the time period that you would recommend?

A great book to read is Fighting Techniques of the Ancient World 3000 BC to 500 AD: Equipment, Combat Skills, and Tactics . It is written by numerous authors and, I'm sorry, I loaned it to a freind so I can't remember who publishes it. I purchased it through the Military Book Club some time ago. There are chapters devoted to Cavalry, Infantry, Command and Control, Siege Tactics, and Naval warfare. There are many examples of ancient battles cited throughout, along with many renderings of the various arms in action. I found it to be very informative of the evolution of each fighting arm through history. I was able to use some of what I learned to improve my own tactics. If I can, I'll try to get you the IBN number. It is also full of great quotes on almost each page. The one I use in my signature is from this book. I think you'll enjoy it immensley.
:san_smiley:

Craterus
12-24-2005, 22:14
A great book to read is Warfare in the Ancient World: Fighting Techniques and Tactics. It is written by numerous authors and, I'm sorry, I loaned it to a freind so I can't remember who publishes it. I purchased it through the Military Book Club some time ago. There are chapters devoted to Cavalry, Infantry, Command and Control, Siege Tactics, and Naval warfare. There are many examples of ancient battles cited throughout, along with many renderings of the various arms in action. I found it to be very informative of the evolution of each fighting arm through history. I was able to use some of what I learned to improve my own tactics. If I can, I'll try to get you the IBN number. It is also full of great quotes on almost each page. The one I use in my signature is from this book. I think you'll enjoy it immensley.
:san_smiley:

I'll have a a look for that book, but I'll have to PM you for info if I can't find anything on the net.

A couple of months ago, we were able to get most of the RTW Guides regulars all into the same campaign (Scythia, that explains why that thread has so many posts). When you guys have finished with the Greeks, are you up for heading over to Carthage? I've just started mine, and I'm only at 265. You'll have a while to catch up too, since I'm busy over the next week or so.

If you're not quite at the end of that game, maybe we could organise something after I'm finished with Carthage and you're finished with the Greeks. You may even be able to get another campaign done. I'm a slow player, and I don't have a lot of time to play at the moment.

rotorgun
12-24-2005, 23:10
I'll have a a look for that book, but I'll have to PM you for info if I can't find anything on the net.

If you're not quite at the end of that game, maybe we could organise something after I'm finished with Carthage and you're finished with the Greeks. You may even be able to get another campaign done. I'm a slow player, and I don't have a lot of time to play at the moment.

Sounds great! I,ve just a few more turns to finish my Brutii campaign, but I'll go ahead and begin a Carthaginian adventure this week as well. I have all this week off as I'm using a bit of vacation.

What are the parameters? I'm probably not up to VH level of play yet. H/H would be acceptable at this time. Are we going to try to go for the same objectives more or less simultaneously? If so, than lead on Craterus, and keep us posted so we may, with all despatch, follow thee.

Merry Christmas
ps: I made an error on the title. It's actually Fighting Techniques of the Ancient World 3000 BC to 500 AD: Equipment, Combat Skills and Tactics. You can find it on Amazon.com for about $20.00 or perhaps for even less at halfprice.com. ( Just finished editting my previous posts)

Craterus
12-24-2005, 23:52
Well, feel free to play at your own level. And I think everyone should go for their own tactics and objectives. We'll have to keep everyone posted on how each of ours is going etc.

But, by doing this, we can see what strategies are effective, and so on. Gives an insight into how other people play too.

For example, some may concentrate on building up and taking Spain. Others may blitz Italy and Sicily. We'll see...

BalkanTourist
12-25-2005, 01:09
Playing the Greeks has been the most fun out of all factions.
I did not abandon Syracuse, instead went for Katank's blitz (I've been a fan of his total war style since MTW and his Byzantine blitz).
It's been 15 years into the campaign and I have 29 provinces. I have 8 full stack armies with 2 9 star generals.
I own Sicily and Corsica, an army is headed towards the islands off the Spanish coast, eventually assulting Iberia.
I have another army almost ready to assult Gaul's/Julii's Mediterranian coast. That army is lead by an young but promissing general and has weapons and experience (2 bronze shevrons) upgraded armored hoplites. Soon Syracuse will be producing the Spartan Hoplites. Another army has made a bridgehead at Lepsis Magna and is headed west hopefully eventually meeting the successful Iberian army.
Macedon was whipped out within the first 5 years. One army is headed north west and has captured the Adriatic coast and Patavium. It is now assulting Meddiolanium. The general's son is getting an army to attack the Dacians, although all he can get from Illyria are Militia Hoplites I don't believe the Dacians can be much of a thread since they fought and lost a war to the Thracians.
Meanwhile another army has crossed from Appolonia and captured Tarrentium. Brutii's last city is besieged, Capua is next. Eventually that army should meet with the 9 star general besieging Meddiolanium. In Greece an army is getting ready for a cross to Cyrenica and will head east to Egypt. Another one in Pergamum will capture Cyprus and assult Sidon. There is an army in the Balkans that captured Byzantium and Tylis and has a task of dealing with the other 3 Thracian cities northwards. The plan for that army is to head east afterwards towards Scythia.
In Asia Minor after initially rushing Ancyra and Nikomedia I was under pressure by Pontus. After I fend off 2 full stacks with Militia Hoplites and Mercs, I send my general from Rhodes with 3 units of Cretan Archers and some Rhodean Slingers. He attacked Halicarnasus and then stroke preventively the Seleucids, because I knew that once I had commited with Pontus, they'd stab me in the back. He then went on and became a 9 star general whipped out Pontus and is off to Armenia. The other general is within a march to Antioch. Meanwhile their sons are getting ready in Mazaka. One is to cross the Black Sea and attack Scythia from the south and the other one will go for Parthia.
I have 78 wins and not a single battle lost. There has been some chalange, but I've been taking my time and I guess the Greeks fit my style perfectly. I'd line the phalanxes and put archers/peltasts behind with skirmish off. Slingers upfront, Thracians on the wings, cavalry in reserve to chase routers to gain experience. Militia cavalry is great as well.
I only build shrines to Hermes and got about 50k in the bank eventhough i pump armies from everywhere. Two exceptions - Sparta and Syracuse have Nike temples for the experience upgrade.

NeoSpartan
12-27-2005, 07:15
Well, feel free to play at your own level. And I think everyone should go for their own tactics and objectives. We'll have to keep everyone posted on how each of ours is going etc.

But, by doing this, we can see what strategies are effective, and so on. Gives an insight into how other people play too.

For example, some may concentrate on building up and taking Spain. Others may blitz Italy and Sicily. We'll see...
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I agree, and so far my expireince with the Greeks playing with VH/VH has forced me to modify my tacktics big time.

I now form my Greek armies in 3 Lines with the Cavl either way off or behind all the lines.
1st line has hoplites,
2nd line has archers (preferibly Mer Arch) and Orages,
3rd line has hoplites too.

The 1st line is to face the front attack,
2nd line is to soften the enemy before they approach.
3rd line is to break into to 3 groups, 2 groups go to opposite flanks when the enemy tries to outflank, and the last group stays in place to either reinforce the 1st line, or form a phalanks against rear attacks.
The cavlry (since it is so horribly BAD) is used to hit the enemy units trying to flank, hit enemy orages, or hit the enemy from the back.

In the end I usually end up in a semi-circle, and always advance in a semi-sircle. And I always make sure that i don't fight UPHILL.

The AI here is very smart, and it will always look to outflank, or bring archers/siege equipment to soften my 1st line. Or itmy hit my front with Family members since they are so hard to kill (only Spartans can hold their formation).

Oh, and in the last Patch of Rome TW, Armored Hoplites fight better with the HOLD botton on. I just saw them in action while holding off Urban Cohort without suffering 1 casualty. (making suere there were no 1 UNIT gaps between my Armored Hoplites)

So far this new tactic is working against the Julii.

cunobelinus
12-30-2005, 20:55
To make greek much much more fun they are already but to make them much much more fun download the greek expansion mod it is worth downloading to have fun.

Craterus
12-30-2005, 21:16
Link?

cunobelinus
12-30-2005, 21:56
heres the link http://www.twcenter.net/downloads/db/index.php?mod=712 and by the way it includes MM and it also includes 6 different skins for spartans.

Alexanderofmacedon
12-31-2005, 00:50
I stink at RTW...

I can't play over H and even then, I'll probably lose...

Well, actually I don't know...I guess I just really like winning, because I almost never lose on Normal...

Seems more fun when you're not losing, so I play normal...

Craterus
12-31-2005, 01:11
Don't worry about it. If you keep trying with hard campaigns, you should survive a little longer each time, until you're good enough to survive long enough to complete it.

But hey, it's a game, it's for enjoyment, so if Normal's what you enjoy, go for it.

Charliebigpotatoes
01-02-2006, 14:09
Re The Greek Cities

Hi can anyone help me? I have been enjoying my Greek campaign and have steadily beaten the Senate army in a serious of epic battles. I have attacked Rome and everytime i win and take the city the game crashes on me. Its happened three times now and is really frustrating.

Can anyone help?

Cheers

Monarch
01-02-2006, 16:21
Hi,

I am just about to start a Greek campaign which should be fun. Probable tactics will to be to kill off tyhe Macedons whilst simultaneously keeping (possibly grabbing a couple more) of the starting provinces in Sicily and Turkey.

Edit: So far I have taken the rebel town near the island of Rhodes. Also I have quite a few other cities in modern Greece, Macedon has not managed to raise an army big enough yet to stop me. The Brutii beat me to Salona though and now they have a foothold in the region which is dissapointing, but once I have finished with Macedon then I'll turn my attention to them.

Filling my ranks so far with mainly Militia Hoplites and Hoplites, lack of cavalry is annoying, especially against Macedon where smashing cav into their flanks would be very useful. (sorry for being annoying and not reading entire thread, where do I recruit merc cavalry?)

Edit #2: I have destroyed Macedon, this didnt take long as their provinces are small and easy to move around. The Macedon destroying army is now heading over to the rebel held Byzantium.

Meanwhile in Turkey I have started a war with the Seleucid Empire, however their main armies are quite far awayso apart from me taking one of their provinces I dont expect that war to heat up just yet. The Turkish stack is heading for a rebel town (Ancyra).

Edit #3 (last time, i swear :P): Brutti are now out of Greece, occassionally landing the odd 'force' now and then but nothing too major. I took Segestica from the rebels, as long as I hold that the Julii are now banished to only fight the barbars to the north of them. I also stubbenly holding onto Syracruse, some nice trade there and it means most the Scipii armies are too busy in Sicily to expand into Africa, I have been sieged in Syracruse like 5 times at last count.

Meanwhile those Asian nations just dont know when to quit. Unprovoked, Pontus and Egypt have declared war and my war with the Seleucids will probably bring their allies, armenia to my gates.

I have also taken this small rebel island just because it was annoying. Next steps include wiping out Seleucids, Dacians and taking an Egyptain island just off my coast.

Very enjoyab