Discussion: the most cost-effective unit?

[econ21]

At the request of Legend5000, I am opening this thread to discuss the most cost-effective unit. Legend5000 writes:


Now everyone knows that a 720 Denarii Legionnary Cohort is more powerful than a 180 Denarii unit of Iberian Infantry, but wouldn't four units of Iberian Infantry worth 720 denarii destroy that legionnary cohort? And at the same time, would even 20 units of peasants be able to destroy 2 spartan hoplite units?

So for a unit to be considered the most cost-effective unit, one would have to consider:

- The stats (including stamina and morale)
- The price
- The amount of turns needed to recruit the unit
- The infrastructure needed to recruit the unit (a unit of Town Watch is much easier to recruit than a unit of Cataphracts)

To organise the discussion, it might be best if people distinguish between single player and multiplayer. I suspect the MP patrons will have a pretty good sense of unit capabilities and the cost effectiveness of upgrades against other players. However in the SP game, the price of unit is almost irrelevant (unlike the upkeep) and certain types of unit (maybe weak missiles?) may be better against the AI than against good players. Distinguishing between different units classes (missiles, spears, heavy cav etc) might be required. There might also be some sense in distinguishing between what's good for a particular army and what's good in the early/middle/late game.

Anyway, I'll throw it open to discussion and debate.

[Seamus Fermanagh]

Vanilla:

General's cavalry. Can't beat the cost, and like all heavy cavalry in vanilla it simply wails.

Of units you actually purchase? I'd go for the Horse Archer. Cheap and kills ridiculously well against the AI.


Mods:

Not as much experience here, so I am less sure. Might end up voting for the heavy peltasts. Fight in all contexts with some effect, not too costly.

[Oaty]

Seamus Fermanagh, you are quite wrong about generals bodyguards being cheap. They may have a cheap upkeep for there power, but you also have to pay an administrative(?) fee for each general you have. It is quite expensive and when your short on territories the fees for haveing so many generals can kill you. So the cavalry may be free but the upkeep and administrative costs really do add up.

But I'd have to say horse archers are by far the most effective. You can lose multiple battles in a row with them....... but did you really lose the battle?

[Unforgivable-Fenrir]

i think that the most cost effective unit in this game woud really have to be the Wardogs.

they are really good because they have a low upkeep and if the men in the unit don't die. The dogs will keep coming back after every battle, so they don't need a lot of retraining. but they are a good unit to chase down the enemies

only down side is that you can't really control them after the are sent into battle. also that they take 2 turns

[Niobe]

On a similar theme to the horse archers - Briton Light Chariots - fewer arrows, more infrastructure needed, but far higher survivability against cavalry.

[Dutch_guy]

So for a unit to be considered the most cost-effective unit, one would have to consider:

- The stats (including stamina and morale)
- The price
- The amount of turns needed to recruit the unit
- The infrastructure needed to recruit the unit (a unit of Town Watch is much easier to recruit than a unit of Cataphracts)

I think one should also take into account each units morale and unit hit points.

The case of 20 peasants versus the 2 spartan hoplites will be won by the spartans - simply because they don't rout and have superior health - due to the 2 hit points.

Peasants 'll simply start routing once their first soldiers die on the spartans' pike points, and considering the low armor and attack value they won't last long anyway.

On the other hand , the Iberian Infantry versus the Cohort with a 4 : 1 ration did get me thinking, assuming you don't attack piecemeal the Iberians 'll probably pull it off.

Well now my opinion on it all.

I think the most cost effective units in the (vanilla) game would be the german spearmen unit. Very low infrastructure level needed, a lot of men, relatively cheap ( 400 d ) and they don't rout on contact.
The only downside is that they don't have any armor, meaning they die like flies against any HA/archer army - which you don't see much in the west thankfully for them.

:balloon2:

[NobleNick]

I did some "custom battle" research, recently, in order to help out someone on another forum. I pretty much convinced myself that Legionary Cohort are the most cost-effective Roman infantry unit. I ran the custom battles in RTW 1.5, on HARD setting (seems to be the setting that most closely equalizes player and A.I. controlled units) with all units upgraded to silver sword and silver shield (foundry upgrade, available to all Roman factons). I played at least 3 rounds as each of the unit types being compared (6 rounds, total) to further negate any handicaps given to the human or the A.I. I tried to mimic the computer's method of play, and not do anything creative ( clean flank attacks, etc.), in order to make each encounter a simple face-to-face slugfest, removing generalship from the equation.

Now, I know 6 rounds is not statistically significant. Sometimes I needed (and performed) more rounds; but for those comparisons where there was very little difference in all 6 rounds, I considered it adequate to draw some preliminary conclusions.

For cost, I did a "per-turn" cost comparison: how much a unit costs per turn. To get this cost I took the upkeep cost and added the prorated recruitment cost, and also added the prorated cost of any upgrades to buildings needed into the cost of the more advanced unit. To figure out the prorates, I assumed that the average unit life expectancy was 10 turns (25 turns for Peasants and Town Watch), and that the average upgraded building would be used to build 20 units of that type.

For Urban Cohort versus Legionary Cohort, the UC were about 1.33 times as effective as LC; but cost 1.5 times as much (per turn). So the LC were more cost effective.

For Auxilia versus Legionary Cohort, the Auxilia were about 1/4 as effective as LC; but cost 1/2 as much. Again, the LC were more cost effective. (By a factor of 2 ! )

I did not do Praetorian Cohort nor Town Watch /Peasants; because it was obvious from research aleady completed that the LC would beat them in cost effectiveness.

Given that: A.) LC are the most cost effective Roman infantry unit; and B.) Roman infantry is widely regarded as the most effective infantry in the game (abeit not touted explicitly as the most COST-effective). I have come to the tentative conclusion that LC are the most cost-effective infantry unit in vanilla 1.5 RTW.

BTW, I found that results varied based on the size of the battle. For instance, I found that 4 Auxilia consistently beat 1 Legionary Cohort. But 2 Legionary Cohort usually beat 8 Auxilia. Same 4:1 ratio. I think the dual LC are giving each other a moral bonus, plus they protect each others flanks.

[Kekvit Irae]

Considering none of my games ever get to the Marion Reforms, I consider the Hestati and the Pricsiples (bleh, I hate spelling these things) to be quite effective ground troops for Romans at 170d/turn. They both have the same attack, but the Pricsidnwuknfgeubgs (henseforth called Hestati v2.0) have slightly higher defense at the same per-turn cost. Considering that most towns you conquer in Gaul (important to note if you play the Julii) are 6000 population or less, you will be churning out a lot of Hestati. Once you hit 6000 and grab the updated barracks, switch to Hestati v2.0 since the actual Hestati will be obsolete by that time. However, both versions can easily hold their own against phalanx (oddly enough) because of their ability to outmanouver an enemy, especially in sieging on-top of city walls where the spears cannot be used in phalanx formation.
Triarii have too high a requirement (12000 population barracks) to be really cost and time effective, therefor I consider the Hestati and Hestati v2.0 to be better.

[Garvanko]

Most cost effective units? I'd take a look at the skirmishers.

1.Numidian Cavalry.

Superb skirmishers, decent in melee, and very, very fast. Cheap, too. I was never keen on missile cavalry until I used this unit extensively in one of my Carthaginian campaigns.

2.Another unit I like is the Roman velite. For the price, they are better than any skirmisher infantry unit, bar the Illyrian Mercs I think.

[Severous]

Non mercenary light cavalry.

Controls the battlefield when used in reasonable numbers. Mobility allows you to split up the AI forces into managable pieces. It has a morale attack on infantry who are concerned about fighting it.

Above all, and the non mercenary bit, they gain experience fast. By merging and retraining correctly its easy to develop silver experience units without having special buildings.

[Ludens]

I ran the custom battles in RTW 1.5, on HARD setting (seems to be the setting that most closely equalizes player and A.I. controlled units) with all units upgraded to silver sword and silver shield (foundry upgrade, available to all Roman factons).
The problem with the hard-setting is that it gives the A.I. troops +4 attack and perhaps a morale bonus as well. For a truly level playing field you need to play at normal.

[-Dnomal-]

Oh i think that the Early Legionary Cohort is the most cost effective, it's fairly cheap, and five of them with fire at will can beat most units, and you have enough money to make several armies of them.

Or the Armoured Hopliltes of greece, even Romans break when they are ordered to charge strait in against them. Plus they aren't as expensive as teh Spartan's and are almost as gd as they are.

[Kekvit Irae]

Or the Armoured Hopliltes of greece, even Romans break when they are ordered to charge strait in against them. Plus they aren't as expensive as teh Spartan's and are almost as gd as they are.

Not to mention it takes only one turn to train them and 6000 population barracks, whereas Spartans require two turns to train and a 12000 population barracks. They also beat the Spartans hands down on the armor factor, but the Spartans are still the king when it comes to hand-to-hand for the Greeks.

[Fwapper]

Hmmmmmmmmmm... I would say Horse archers without a doubt, but: They are great verses AI but less great verses humans. And they are RUBBISH in an auto-calc battle. Which is why they aren't the MCEU.

[NobleNick]

Oh i think that the Early Legionary Cohort is the most cost effective... Or the Armoured Hopliltes of greece, even Romans break when they are ordered to charge strait in against them. Plus they aren't as expensive as teh Spartan's and are almost as gd as they are.

I did some cost analysis on ELC versus LC, assuming unit lifespan of 10 turns; and amortized the building upgrade costs over 20 units; and found that the LC cost about 1.33 times as much as ELC to train. Then I did some custom battles, and found that the LC are about 1.5 times as effective as ELC. So, while ELC are very cost effective; I think the LC are able to nudge them out of the top slot. (And I do, indeed, think that LC are the most cost effective unit in the game.)

I very recently posted in another forum about how I didn't think the Spartan cost was worth it, compared to Armored Hoplites. I still stand by that; but I am not so sure that the difference is radical. If you can protect their Achilles heel (low defense against melee and missile attack) then Spartans can be very effective. So an all armored Hoplite force is probably more cost effective than one totally composed of Spartan units; but, in the right hands, a ratio of 4 Hoplites and one Spartan unit might be a more cost effective mix than either of the other two options, as long as you can protect your Spartans from archers.

[Spart]

I find that hoplites are cost effective for me, I normally use them to pin down the enemy so that my Greek cavalry can charge and cause the actual rout

[Caius]

The Arcanii.
Maybe two turns is much for a superb troop, but the arcanii can hide anywhere

[Roman_Man#3]

i dont think arcani. 32 men, two turn build, i dunno how much though. in the campaign, it would take 40 turns to make 20 arcani, while in those 40 turns, you could make 40 LC. i know 40 LC could beat(or most of the time) 20 arcani.

[Afkazar]

Hoplites are undoublty the best in city defending.While they cant hold the walls they can EASILY hold the routes leading to the town square.As long as a better units of hoplites or increible cav comes.Even then i set my my hoplites up in such a way that an entire phalanx cant get to town square without getiing hit in the sides by at least 1 other unit

[HumphreysCraig00]

In single player the most cost effective by far is Light cavalry (equites is the one I have experience with) As with good strategic use (and a bucket full of luck:laugh4: ) I can rout a few kinds of early/mid game Full stack armies(@) with 2 equites units (although I always keep a minimum of 4 (2 Striking 2 reserve) incase I make a mistake and rout the 2 stiking units:embarassed: ).

And theyre cheap as chips and you have the ability to build them from the start of the game. The downside though is I cant take settlements with them without massive casualties, I dont know why. But its possible to avoid them with city reinforcement fights also missile cavalry is difficult to destroy with them sometimes, but often the AI screws up and makes it easy.


In multiplayer though there is no most cost effective unit. As you need balanced armies to do well at all(*), (although all berserker armies wipe the floor with people who dont know how to counter them) So there could be a multiplayer most cost effective unit ratio (2 Hev cav to 1 hev infantry for instance) but no most cost effective unit as far as I can see.


@ Not 100% of the time, around 40-50%, but it is somehting I can doo, ive never got to the endgame so dont know about then (I get bored)

* for me anyway

[ByzantineKnight]

Peasants: They cost nothing and do nothing lol :laugh4:

Just Kidding

British Light Chariots: A couple can easily decimate a full stack of almost anything.

[LuckyDog Trojan]

NobleNick:
Thanks for the analytical work you put together pertaining to the Legionary Cohort. I'll have to remember that in the future when my D-funds are quickly drying up due to upkeep costs for all those Praetorian & Urban Cohorts I tend to get carried away with building.

For me - I get a lot of mileage out of the Archer Auxilia unit - as long as I can keep them out out 'harms way' (melee encounters) and don't have to send them back into the cities too often for rank replenishment. Long term, these guys do a heckuva job of softening up the enemy for me in battle after battle. They are often instrumental in helping me to achieve battlefield victories.

[woad&fangs]

wardogs!!!!!! they're cheap as dirt for upkeep and replenish themselves after every battle!!!! mounted missile troops like light chariots are also good because they can kill more than 100 enemies per battle and not take a hit. plus they only cost 400 to recruit and have low upkeep because they dont have many troops per unit. :medievalcheers:

[guineawolf]

At the request of Legend5000, I am opening this thread to discuss the most cost-effective unit. Legend5000 writes:



To organise the discussion, it might be best if people distinguish between single player and multiplayer. I suspect the MP patrons will have a pretty good sense of unit capabilities and the cost effectiveness of upgrades against other players. However in the SP game, the price of unit is almost irrelevant (unlike the upkeep) and certain types of unit (maybe weak missiles?) may be better against the AI than against good players. Distinguishing between different units classes (missiles, spears, heavy cav etc) might be required. There might also be some sense in distinguishing between what's good for a particular army and what's good in the early/middle/late game.

Anyway, I'll throw it open to discussion and debate.

for my campaign experience i would say it is militia hoplites=230denarii,i can recruit it with just barracks,and i can recruit 3 militia hoplites with just 690 denarii compare to legion cohorts=720 denarii,and i can kill 1 unit legion cohorts with 3 units militia hoplites without flanking move,with flanking move,2 is oredi enough.....

with using militia hoplites,you just need to work on population growth and equipment upgrade(weapon and armor),and they just need a good care of your morale booster general when they engage any enemy.:yes: :2thumbsup:

it is my war winning troops in my Thracian campaign...:yes:

if you are out of denarii,use wardogs would help a lot(they are the city cleaner for me)

[Stuperman]

Barbarian Mercs!

Just kidding, they are about the least cost efftive unit avaiable.

I'd say Phalanx pikemen, 150/turn, 240 men, long spears, can beat hopelites easly (as they have shorter spears), will kick most roman troops ass (against AI, who rush the front), they destroy cav. Only real weakness is on walls, and they are vunerable to archers and cav as thay are slow.

[guineawolf]

Barbarian Mercs!

Just kidding, they are about the least cost efftive unit avaiable.

I'd say Phalanx pikemen, 150/turn, 240 men, long spears, can beat hopelites easly (as they have shorter spears), will kick most roman troops ass (against AI, who rush the front), they destroy cav. Only real weakness is on walls, and they are vunerable to archers and cav as thay are slow.

150/turn? Are you mentioning the levy pikemen? Successfully using militia hoplites to conquer the map,i am gonna try that after my Carthage campaign...:yes:

[RickFGS]

Greek Cities: Armoured Hoplite is the best cost/effective:
https://img167.imageshack.us/img167/1252/semttulool4.jpg

Buildable from turn 3 on campaign, 1 turn recruit, 27/30 defense (pre-build temples and blacksmiths increase troops quality) and relatively low cost to such a good unit and taking in consideration the wealthiest zone in the map (agean sea) that generate enourmous ammounts of cash in part because to Statue of Zeus, Colossus, Artemis and Halicarnassos great wonders.

All of this factors make the Greek - Armoured Holipe Factory deadly in any RTW campaign.

[Negator_UK]

I recall playing Carthage a few months ago, and was very impressed by round-shield cavalry.

I just piled it onto the battlefield and straight into one end of the enemies line.

The other end couldn't move to support before the first end routed, then I did the same on the other side.

This discovery turned the game around for me, although it was before I started playing on VH/VH, I think this campaign was H/H.

Typical enemy was early Roman, Hastati and Principes.

[TruePraetorian]

I must agree with rick on this one, greek-cities armoured hoplites. I am in the middle of a hotseat greek-macedon-roman-etc warand by far they have helped me take cities as well as defend my borders...absolutely easy to use (if you have no trouble like some do with hoplites)they can destroy a roman cohort 1 on 1 which is extremely effective, massacre cavalry, good stamina, very very cost effective infantry in my opinion (Nice choice rick :2thumbsup: )

Now for archers Pharaohs bowmen, a little expensive but wow they do the job, and can serve as some decent melee troops in a pickle...

Cavalry? I would def. go with macedonian companion cavalry. Again, they may be higher priced but they are extremely powerful and route enemies with a single charge or two :yes:

That's my 2 cents :beam:

[hamilcarX]

Poeni infantry or sacred band Infantry, combinded with some cavalry, i don't know anything bout the costs and stats, but i do know that they are strong enough to hold the enemy superior infantry long enough, so your superior carthaginian cavalry can surround them and attack them in the rear, thats why i think these are good, NOT THE BEST, but in this tactic, they are the best

[Benandorf]

I agree Armored Hoplites are probably it, though Spartans deserve a mention. You essentially get the same cost/HP as armored hoplites, with the same build time per HP, but better stats, and lower upkeep/HP.

[Quintus.JC]

Originally Posted by Legend5000
Now everyone knows that a 720 Denarii Legionnary Cohort is more powerful than a 180 Denarii unit of Iberian Infantry, but wouldn't four units of Iberian Infantry worth 720 denarii destroy that legionnary cohort? And at the same time, would even 20 units of peasants be able to destroy 2 spartan hoplite units?

So for a unit to be considered the most cost-effective unit, one would have to consider:

- The stats (including stamina and morale)
- The price
- The amount of turns needed to recruit the unit
- The infrastructure needed to recruit the unit (a unit of Town Watch is much easier to recruit than a unit of Cataphracts)

I'd have to go with Horse Archers, but looking at the infrastructure i really like Militia Hoplite. Cheap and effective, only needs a simple barrack and takes one turn to train. could 8 units of Militia hoplites defeats a unit of spartan hoplite?

[Punicus]

I'm going to go a bit off of the Horse Archer train and go Long Shield Cavalry. Honestly, I've never been disappointed with their performance. 140 Upkeep isn't bad at all. When they gain experience they're almost unstoppable. And when you're playing as Carthage and you've got at least 8 of them in there, an experienced Long Shield army is amazing.

[Hannibalbarc]

For cavalry I'd say roundshield, hey they are the cheapest cav in the game and one on one they beat equites, greek cav, light lancers, and I think even barb cav, also you can spam them right from the start of the game, sure you can train longshields very early on but you can't spam them.
For infantry I'd have to say bullwarriors, they are available at minor city level and their upkeep is reeeeaaaally low for an elite unit.

[TruePraetorian]

I'll say it again (it again :beam: ) Armoured hoplites are my number one choice for cost effective.

City besieged? Hold the gates or streets with a single unit forever

Assaulting? Move them through the streets like a lawnmower

Open-field? Beats cav....beats infantry...beats missile...it's a toughy
and
cost effective? Get that city up a few in population and you'll be makin foreign dough in no time at all.

But really, they are an impressive unit...match them up 1v1 and I think it says it all for combat, as for price once you have a decent momentum going with empire building these things are like treads to a bulldozer.

[Good Ship Chuckle]

I might have to go with eastern/egypt/carthage peasants. They are the spartans of the peasants, but still have the same cost. They have 3 attack and 3 defense. .:whip:

This is excellent when considering that 'civilized' peasants are simple 1 def and 1 attack, and barbarian peasants have 1 attack 4 def, but same cost.

[Ibn-Khaldun]

I think the militia hoplites are the most cost effective unit ..
More then once I have conquered about half of the known world with them :yes:

[placenik]

Definitely HA. Upkeep of only 110, and you destroy ~100 infantry or ~50 cavalery per turn without loses.

[gaiusmarius8]

Levy Pikemen save my ass when I play Macedon.

[guineawolf]

Originally Posted by Legend5000
Now everyone knows that a 720 Denarii Legionnary Cohort is more powerful than a 180 Denarii unit of Iberian Infantry, but wouldn't four units of Iberian Infantry worth 720 denarii destroy that legionnary cohort? And at the same time, would even 20 units of peasants be able to destroy 2 spartan hoplite units?

So for a unit to be considered the most cost-effective unit, one would have to consider:

- The stats (including stamina and morale)
- The price
- The amount of turns needed to recruit the unit
- The infrastructure needed to recruit the unit (a unit of Town Watch is much easier to recruit than a unit of Cataphracts)

I'd have to go with Horse Archers, but looking at the infrastructure i really like Militia Hoplite. Cheap and effective, only needs a simple barrack and takes one turn to train. could 8 units of Militia hoplites defeats a unit of spartan hoplite?


if this is the requirement,then i would say armoured hoplites will be the most cost effective unit then,

-9 spear attack,5 sword attack(they can kill as legion when they being upgraded by foundry and pantheon of Nike,just not as flexible as legion,same problem that spartan got..),11 armor(this is the gear that make them survive under arrows),6 defense skill,5 shield...

-640 per unit,210 upkeep per turn.

-1 turn per unit

-city barrack of a minor city can produce them then.

early legion can fight better than armour hoplite,but they can't beat cavalry.....

for early game,i would suggest militia hoplites,if you edit the 160 of mili hop to 240 per unit,you can save your time to building high level barrack to build building bring you more supply(denarii...),it just cost you a lot of population....and remember to use them in numbers...

militia hoplites=
-5 spear attack,3 sword attack,8 defense of 3 defense skill and 5 shield.(they can be upgraded by foundry and pantheon of hephaetus to 10 spear attack,8 sword attack,13 defense of 3 armor,5defense skill and 5 shield,stats of standard light infantry,it just they only got 4 morale...2exp add by pantheon of hephaetus)

-230 per unit,100 upkeep per turn.

-1 turn per unit.

-barrack of any town is oredi enough.

as my choice,use armor hoplite when you got plenty of denarii but short of population,
if you got plenty population but short of denarii,then use militia hoplites.

[Alrik]

Hmm...can't necro the thread, when it's already at the top of the forum, right?

Anyhow as far as militia hoptilites goes, they are WAY overrated. Levy pikemen requires another level of barraks, but that's 2000 people settlement and civilized factions, not really that much to ask for is it? They have the same cost as militia hoptilites per soldier and their long spears mean that they kick militia hoptilite's asses any day of the week and can actually handle a cavalry charge, which I'm sorry to say, militia hoptilites does a horrible job at.

As good as they are I still think there are better units.
Wardogs have been mentioned, though I'd take warhounds any day of the week over wardogs (only romans gets wardogs, warhounds are tougher and cheaper as most barbarian things are.) I'd probably vote for German/Schythian warhounds as they are 120 in a unit over the other 96 troop units, eventhough they are a little more costly per soldier/dog with their 60 denarii a turn instead of 40.
Warhounds/dogs are really just about everything you can ask of infantry, they are expendable, in that you really don't care if they die (you get new ones as long as the handlers survive.) and they don't break! On top of that you get that they frighten enemy infantry, they are fast so they run down fleeing infantry and more importanly, nimble along with that quickness, meaning that they can intercept oncoming cavalry which means that by the time your cavalry have circled around your hounds can have the enemy's cavalry pinned for you to charge and slaughter.
Their two main drawbacks are that they take two turns to build and don't gain experience unless the handlers do the killing, they only need a first tier barracks to build though which will also give you the cavalry needed for the above tactic of pin and slaughter.

Even so they are fairly light troops, even if three of them does take down a general unit (that's a bloody fact, he's dead and there's nothing he can do about it.)

So my vote probably has to fall on the forrester, again two bloody turns to build and now a third tier building (even though it's just the second level of archery building it does need 6000 pop. Which still means that you'll have them long before civilized factions have their elite troops)
At only 200 denari per unit and turn you can afford to have a lot of these guys and as they should only be built out of third tier epona cities it takes a little while before you have them, but oboy when you do.
17 in missile means that you don't care if you're fireing into their front, or how much armour they have, or the size of their shields, they die anyway and with long range this means that a lot of them die before they have the chance to face you in hand to hand, only to learn that your forresters have an equally staggering 17 in melee attack and a defence of 10, not to mention excelent moral and very high stamina, in fact they actually rest when fireing arrows! Very rarely do I even with running with them everywhere ever get them to winded, half a breather while giving some other unit an order is usually enough for them to lose a level of fatigue.

These guys paired with warhounds are the menace of anyone. warhounds are expendable, menaing that you don't have to stop shooting, this paired with the hounds ability to counter the archer's biggest threat, cavalry, is flabbergaisting. And should the cavalry still make contact with your forresters, then they are they only archer unit to fight with spears in hand to hand combat, so they can give cavalry a fair beating anyway, with their melee value of 17 this means that even heavy cavalry should quiver in their saddles.