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econ21
12-06-2007, 10:41
This thread is for all out of character discussion of the King of the Romans PBM - a HRE M2TW game. Please post in this thread if you have any queries or are unsure where to post.

The list of players and description of their avatars is maintained in the first post of the Chancellor and Governors thread:

https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showpost.php?p=1383081&postcount=1



*************KOTR FAQ (UPDATED)**********************

The following paragraphs are designed to provide a simple understanding of the KOTR game and how it works. If anything in these paragraphs conflicts with one of the Game Rules, the Rule takes precedent.

Introduction

The general idea of the King of the Romans (KOTR) game is to allow a large group of players to determine the fate and development of the Holy Roman Empire in M2TW.

All players are “Electors” and will belong to one of the four Ducal Houses, Franconia (north), Swabia (west), Austria (east) or Bavaria (south). Eventually all players will be represented by an in-game character known as an “avatar.” This will typically be a general, but agents such as spies, priests or diplomats can be used as well upon request. It is not advisable to use an assassin as an avatar, as they have short life expectancies. If a player’s avatar gets into a battle, the player is expected to download the savegame and fight the battle.

Collectively, the Electors form the Imperial Diet. This has two functions - to elect a Chancellor and to create Edicts. The Chancellor will be the “reigning player” and control the game during his term in office. He will move all the generals, authorize any buildings from the build queues and train any units/agents. “Edicts” are laws that require the Chancellor to take specific actions. These can be very wide ranging in scope, but typically include such things as declaring war against another nation, seeking an alliance with a neutral country, or making peace with an enemy nation.

How to Join the Game

In order to join the game and get started, all you need to do is post in the current OOC thread that you would like to join and select one of the four Ducal Houses. You can then start participating in as much or as little detail as you wish. You will always be able to find the location of the relevant game threads in the second post of the Imperial Library (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showpost.php?p=1383644&postcount=2).

The Ranks

KOTR attempts to mimic the feudal political system of medieval Europe. There are several ranks which each player can obtain, all of which come with their own benefit and responsibilities. If you wish to be highly involved, you can take on roles that require more work and responsibility. If you wish to simply observe and cast votes during election times, you will have to do very little. The extent of your involvement is entirely up to you.

Electors

All players, except the Emperor, are Electors, even if they hold another rank. It is the lowest rank in the game and all new players begin at this level. As an Elector, you may speak in the Imperial Diet, propose one Edict per session, vote on Edicts, and vote for Chancellor. All Electors belong to one of the Ducal Houses. You are not required to follow the orders or suggestions of your Duke, but he has the ability to bestow and remove ranks and privileges. If you have ambitions to rise to a higher rank, carefully consider whether your Duke will approve of your actions or not.

It is important to remember that you can only freely propose one personal Edict per Diet session. Choose an issue that is important to you and think very carefully about how you word it. A poorly worded or unimportant Edict can easily be ignored and forgotten. The only way you can propose more than one Edict per Diet session is through the approval of your Duke.

Electors will be provided with avatars on the basis of seniority; first come, first served. Generals are the most popular avatars and there may be a waiting period to obtain one. Agent avatars can usually be obtained quickly, but are not as complex and are not really suited for players who wish to rise to a higher rank. If you take a general as an avatar, you will be expected to fight any battles the avatar gets into, assuming he commands the army. You will have 48 hours in which to fight the battle after you are notified about it. When that time expires, the battle will be autoresolved, which could result in the death of your avatar. If you do not want to fight battles and there is a shortage of generals for avatars, please do not accept one. If you want an avatar but do not wish to fight, please consider using an agent.

Counts

Counts are prominent nobles within their Houses. The title of Count can be bestowed upon an Elector by his Duke. The role of Count is identical to that of an Elector with a general avatar, with a few exceptions.

A Count rules over one of the settlements (city or castle) in his Ducal House. The Count may, at his discretion, determine the order in which buildings are created in that settlement (build queue). The Chancellor is not required to build anything in the settlement, but if something is built, it must be in the order determined by the Count. The Count can also set the tax rate in his settlement, if it is a city. Counts gain a small influence bonus during votes on Edicts and in elections for Chancellor. Counts can name an heir to take over their lands when they die. For practical purposes, this should only be an Elector from your Ducal House with a general avatar who is not already a Count.

There are two kinds of Counts: Freehold Counts and Bonded Counts. The difference is simple. Freehold Counts are the natural born sons of a Duke. They cannot be removed from control of their settlement, though the Duke can still name another as his heir if a Freehold Count displeases him. Bonded Counts are non-blood sons of a Duke, such as adoptees, sons-in-law, or anyone else who is not a natural born son. Bonded Counts can be stripped of their titles and lands at any time and for any reason by the Duke.

Dukes

Dukes are the heads of the Houses. They are figures of authority and they wield a great deal of power. There is only one Duke per House and a player can only become Duke by being the Duke’s heir at the time of his death. The role of Duke has many more powers than that of Count and Dukes gain a significant influence bonus during votes on Edicts and in elections for Chancellor.

The Duke rules over the capital of his House and all provinces which do not have a Count. Just like with a Count, the Duke can determine the build queue and tax rate for these settlements, but he can give orders for as many of them as he wishes. Dukes are also responsible for promoting and demoting Bonded Counts. A Duke may give any Elector with a general avatar the rank of Count, making them a Bonded Count. He may take away their lands at any time or switch their lands as he sees fit. The Duke can name an heir to take over as head of his House when he dies. For practical purposes, this should only be an Elector from your Ducal House with a general avatar, and it is recommended (though not necessary) that the person already be a Count.

The Duke is responsible for managing the affairs of his House and will often be dealing directly with the Chancellor and the Kaiser in high-level political discussions. Dukes may propose one personal Edict per Diet session, but also control three additional House Edict proposals per Diet session. These proposals are no different than any other Edicts, but they must have the pre-secured backing of at least two seconders from inside the Duke’s House. These can be the Duke’s own Edicts, but it is recommended that the Duke pick at least some of them from amongst the ‘extras’ his Electors want to put forward. It would be entirely appropriate for the Duke to use incentives and threats to ensure that the policies he wants get put forward. However, remember that even these extra Edict proposals must come pre-seconded by two members of his House. Don’t anger too many of your Electors or they could prevent you from using your extra Edict proposals!

Finally, the Duke controls the Household Army. The Household Army is the House’s personal military force and it is largely independent of outside control. The Duke is responsible for determining where it is garrisoned, who commands it, and what orders it is given. For more details, read the Game Rule on Household Armies.

Stewards

Stewards are Electors who are temporarily acting as Dukes. KOTR originally started with two Stewards, but for the most part, the title of Steward is a temporary one bestowed on a House Elector for a short time when a Duke is unavailable to fulfill his duties. In reality, this happens when a player who is a Duke is going on vacation or is otherwise going to be out-of-touch with the game for a short period of time.

Stewards have all of the powers of Dukes for the duration of their term, except that they cannot name an heir.

Emperor (Kaiser)

The Holy Roman Emperor is the supreme head of the Empire. It is a hereditary position. (Note: This is not historical, but there’s no way to change this in-game.) While the Emperor is theoretically the most powerful man in the entire Empire, in the KOTR game he plays a more subtle role. The Emperor gains an influence bonus equal to his authority during votes on Edicts and in elections for Chancellor.

First, the Emperor presides over the Imperial Diet. It is his job to maintain order in the Diet and ensure that it runs smoothly. If there is a dispute about the Game Rules, the Emperor will make the final decision about the proper manner to follow the Rules.

Second, the Emperor does not belong to any of the Ducal Houses. Upon inheriting the throne, they leave their old House for good and lose any other titles (Elector, Count, Duke) that they might have. The Emperor is expected to act for the good of the Empire, rather than an individual House. While Emperors are expected to be impartial, they will certainly have strong opinions about what is best for the Empire. This may in turn result in them siding with Houses that support their decisions and working against Houses that they believe are hurting the Empire.

Third, Emperors allocate newly captured provinces to the Ducal Houses. When a province is captured, it comes under the direct control of the Emperor, who can control them in the same manner that the Dukes and the Counts can control their own lands. The Emperor may allocate any of his lands to any of the Ducal Houses. Once allocated, they cannot ever be returned to the Emperor. House provinces where are re-taken after being occupied by an enemy do not count as being “captured.”

Fourth, Emperors decide which player-controlled avatar, if any, a Princess should marry.

Finally, Emperors can automatically assume the position of Chancellor for the first term after they are crowned. This power is not subject to Diet vote and no one can run against them. However, the Emperor still has the limitations of Chancellor while in office, which means he can be impeached by the Diet in exceptional circumstances. Any further attempts by the Emperor to be Chancellor must go through the normal election process.

Prince (Prinz)

The Prince is a largely unimportant role, significant mainly because he is the heir to the throne and will become the next Emperor. Unlike the title of Emperor, the title of Prince is added in addition to any other titles the player holds. This gives the player a small influence bonus during votes on Edicts and in elections for Chancellor. The Prince’s only duty is to preside over the Diet when the Emperor is absent.

There is no control over who becomes the new Prince once the current one assumes the throne. Like with the Emperor, this is a limitation imposed on us by the game itself. With luck, the role will only fall on players who seek to be active in the game. (*cross your fingers!*)

In practical terms, players must always remember that the Prince will inherit the throne, thus gaining power over the Houses through his ability to allocate newly conquered provinces. If you make an enemy of the Prince, your House might find itself smaller than the others when he becomes Emperor.

Chancellor

The position of Chancellor is without a doubt the most important and powerful one in KOTR. In game terms, the Chancellor is the person who actually plays the M2TW game. Unlike the other positions, you shouldn’t think of the Chancellor in the sense of what he can do, but rather what he cannot do. He is essentially playing the single player M2TW campaign with the following restrictions:

The Chancellor must obey the Game Rules and Edicts that have been passed by the Diet. Failure to do so can lead to impeachment by the Diet.

The Chancellor decides whether buildings are to be constructed in all settlements. If a settlement has a build queue from a Count, Duke, or Emperor, then he must build the items on that list in the order listed. However, he does not have to build anything at all if he does not want to, he only has to follow the build queue if he does decide to build something. If a settlement has no build queue for whatever reason, the Chancellor can build whatever he likes.

The Chancellor moves the armies and hands out saved games to be played by the appropriate generals. He can fight battles that his avatar is commanding whenever he wants without pause, but must give other players 48 hours to fight their battles. If a player exceeds the time limit or if the battle is lead by a Captain or a general that is not represented by a player, the battle must be autoresolved. The only exception to the Chancellor’s control over the armies are the Household Armies. For more details, read the Game Rule on Household Armies.

Essentially everything else is free game. If there isn’t a Rule or Edict about it, the Chancellor can do whatever he wants. The Chancellor’s term last for 10 game turns (20 game years), but he can run for re-election if he wishes. In recognition for his contributions, the Chancellor gets a small influence bonus during votes on Edicts and in elections for Chancellor, even after he leaves office.


***************KOTR GAME RULES**************

Game settings

*MT2TW with the 1.3 patch
Kingdoms installs 1.3. If you do not have 1.3, there is a free patch you can download and install:
http://download.sega.com/u/med2/patch/1.3_retail/Medieval%20II_Update3_Compatibility_Patch_EFIGS.rar
You need to install this on top of 1.2.
*Hard campaigns, very hard battles.
*Large unit size.
*Battle timer on. Show CPU Moves, Manage all Settlements
Standard victory conditions (45 provinces, including Rome).

Charter Amendment 6.2: Medifix will no longer be used and in its stead, FactionHeir's trait and ancillary fixes will be implemented. He will also take full responsibility of any issues regarding these files, however unlikely these may be after extensive testing.

The only mod we will use is the trait and ancillary files created by factionheir, available to download at:
http://www.totalwar.org/patrons/pbm/KOTRfix129.zip

Charter Amendment CAE1.1: econ21 will be authorised to give AI factions extra florins; for example, by gifting them a lump sum every 10 turns or so.

To increase the difficulty, the AI will periodically be given money via the consol.

The console command to give 10000 florins to Hungary is:

add_money hungary, 10000

The list of major factions is:

england
france
spain
venice
sicily
milan
scotland
byzantium
russia
moors
turks
egypt
denmark
portugal
poland
hungary

The Mongols, Timurids and Aztecs may be included at a later stage.

Probably the best practice is to top up factions with less than 50k, at a rate of perhaps 10k per turn.


OOC CA 14.1: econ21 is authorised to use the console to periodically strengthen AI armies.

Hard restrictions on play: * only two land units (including a general) may travel on each ship.

OOC CA14.4: No AI buildings may be destroyed.


How to play - detailed rules


1. The role of players.

1.1 Each player will roleplay an “elector” of the HRE. They must choose one of four noble houses to belong to. Players are born into a noble House. It is in their blood and cannot be changed. It is determined by which of the four lines on the family tree their avatar falls under (except for the three starter Generals, for whom it is determined by their initial geography). [Note - if avatars spawn disproportionately in certain Houses, Electors of one House may be offered an avatar of another, but then they effectively role-play a new character.]

Charter Amendment 9.2: Add to article 1.1:
In view of exceptional circumstances, the von Mahren family is allowed to join the House of Austria.

1.2 Over time, all players will be assigned an avatar (typically a general) by econ21 to represent them. They should roleplay their traits.

1.3 Players whose avatars lead in a battle will be expected to fight that battle. This will involve downloading the savegame of the battle, playing it and then uploading the resulting savegame. Uploading the post-battle save must be done within 48 hours of the pre-battle savegame being uploaded. If the deadline expires, the battle is autoresolved.

OOC Charter Amendment:
(a) Where there are multiple player controlled generals in a stack, then the player who plays out the battle is determined by who the computer designates is in command.
(b) An exception is that Household Armies (and the Army of Outremer) are always commanded by the designated Commander of said army.
(c) The commanding general may allow another player to fight a battle by mutual consent for OOC reasons.

1.4 Players whose avatars are Counts are entitled to set the taxes and build queue of that settlement. If anything is built in the settlement, it must be the first item on the build queue.
Charter Amendment 8.1:
Clause 1: Amend 1.4 by adding: If no build queue is posted for a settlement, the Chancellor can build what he likes. The Chancellor may upgrade a settlement at any time (ie upgrade the walls regardless of a build queue), unless such an upgrade is forbidden in advance by the governor.

1.5 Each elector will periodically vote to elect a Chancellor (reigning player) of the HRE and on edicts to direct him.

1.6 Players are encouraged to stand for the post of Chancellor.

1.7 Players are encouraged to write in-character stories in the stories thread; to discuss matters of state in the Imperial Diet deliberations thread; to write-up battle reports; to PM each other in character for role-playing etc. [Note: when posting screenshots, we could keep them full size but put them under spoiler tags.]

OOC CA14.3: Players may “rebel” against Imperial authority and fight PvP battles. econ21 and TinCow will umpire what forces and resources rebels can command, and the process for resolving any PvP battles.


2. The role of the Chancellor.

2.1 The Chancellor is much like the player of a solo M2TW campaign - he moves all the units and agents on the map; he decides all the buildings and which units/agents to be trained.

2.2 However, he delegates battles to the player whose general leads the HRE force. And he follows the build queues and tax policies of players with governors.

2.3 He also must obey Imperial edicts and the constitution (these rules) or face political consequences.

2.4 The Chancellor is elected every 10 turns. Incumbent Chancellors can run for re-election if they wish.

2.5 The Chancellor must appoint army commanders. He must maintain a list of who has what post and notify players if they are appointed or dismissed from a role.

2.6 Battles are only fought manually when commanded by a player controlled general who is an army commander. They are autoresolved in all other cases (e.g. captain-led armies).

Charter Amendment E2.1:
(a) If an Edict to impeach the Chancellor is passed with a 2/3 majority, he is removed from office immediately.
(b) After impeachment, a fresh election is held to elect a new Chancellor, although a Kaiser may also exercise his perogative to be Chancellor at that point.
(c) The Chancellor replacing an impeached Chancellor serves out the remainder of the impeached Chancellor's term.
(d) All edicts passed in the Diet that elected the impeached Chancellor remain valid, unless overturned by new Edicts at the Emergency Session that impeached him.
(e) An impeached chancellor is not granted the additional bonus to influence that an ex-chancellor would normally be given.

Charter Amendment 11.5: All cities must have their maximum amount of free upkeep militia within their walls all times, except when the militia is used to fight armies observed to be within the boundaries of their province.

OOC CA 14.2: At the start of each turn, the Chancellor will post an annual report on the last turn, including a save game. The report will list battles that could be fought this turn. Players will have 24 hours to fight these battles or suggest moves for their characters. This system will be trialled for 5 turns and then either abandoned or continued based on majority opinion.

OOC CA 14.8: Chancellors should aim to post annual reports and savegames within 48 hours of the deadline for fighting all battles (offensive or defensive). Chancellors who fail to do this three times may be subject to an OOC impeachment vote.


3. The role of the Imperial Diet

3.1. The Imperial Diet will meet in session every 10 turns. Out of session, there can be open debate and deliberations. Each session lasts 3 days of real time.

3.2. At each session, nobles can propose edicts. These require two seconders to be put to the vote. Edicts are laws that direct what the Chancellor should do.

Charter Ammendment 5.2: Each Elector may only propose ONE edict or charter ammendments per Diet. In addition, Dukes may propose one personal Edict per Diet session, but also control three additional House Edict proposals per Diet session. These proposals are no different than any other Edicts, but they must have the pre-secured backing of at least two seconders from inside the Duke’s House. In the case where there are only 1 or 2 electors in total in a Duke's House, a House edict may still be put forward to the diet requiring only the number of possible seconding electors in the House as seconders.

3.3. Any declaration of war must be authorised by an Imperial edict. The Chancellor or any Duke is empowered to declare war on a non-allied army entering its lands.

Charter Amendment 10.2:
(a) No settlement will be captured without an Edict authorising its acquisition in advance.
(b) Captured settlements will be abandoned or given away unless, at the next Diet session, a Charter Amendment incorporates them formally as part of the Reich.
(c) The 33 existing provinces of the Reich are exempt from (a) and (b).
(d) This amendment overrides the constitutional right of Household Armies to conquer one neighbouring province.
Proposed: Kaiser Henry
Seconded: Conrad Salier, Ansehelm von Kastilien

Charter Amendment 12.1: The province of Bran is to be incorporated formally into the Holy Roman Empire.

Charter Amendment 12.8: Ajaccio and Cagliari are to be incorporated into the Reich. The Chancellor is directed to trade Cagliari to any foe if it can bring about a peace between our nations.

*3.4. The rules of the game can be changed by a Noble Charter Amendments (2/3 majority required) except those marked with a *.

3.5. Tied edicts fail. If contradictory edicts are passed, the one with the most votes takes priority.

3.6. Edicts can only last for 10 turns.

3.7. Every 10 turns, or on the death or impeachment of the Chancellor, there is an election for the post of Chancellor. Ties lead to a fresh ballot. A second tie is decided by seniority (avatar age). Voting is open for 2 days.

*3.8. The Chancellor can be impeached and removed from office by a 2/3 majority of the Imperial Diet.

3.9. The Imperial Diet is presided over by the character controlling the Emperor. His rulings are final. The Prince can preside in the absence of the Emperor. The Emperor can call an emergency session of the Imperial Diet - freeze the game - at will.
Charter Amendment 8.2: In addition to the Kaiser, an Emergency Session of the Diet may be called by the Prinz, or if three of the four House leaders (Dukes or Stewards) agree to do so.

3.10 Influential players get bonus votes (max +6 bonus)

Appointed Influence (Max 4 points):
Duke: +3
King: +2
Count: +1
Chancellor, ex-Chancellor, or Prince: +1

Stat Influence (Max 2 points):
15 or more total stat points: +1 (I thought about a lower number, but all avatars are given a base 3 piety and base 5 loyalty, which means those points are freebies. So, 15 is only 7 from actual traits, plus the 8 piety and loyalty freebies)
6 or more ranks in one stat: +1 (In the unlikely scenario where a character gets 6 or more in 2 stats without having 15 total, they get this +1 twice)

The player who is Emperor gets bonus votes differently, being equal to his authority.

Charter Amendment 6.7: Any decision that would lead to the excommunication of the Reich has to be authorized by a Diet vote, requiring a 2/3 majority. In the event of a conflict, this Amendment supercedes Rule 3.3 and Charter Amendment 5.1.


4. The role of the four houses - Dukes and Counts

4.1 There will be four houses representing the four main branches of the family tree: Franconia (north), Swabia (west), Austria (east) or Bavaria (south). At the start of the game, Prince Henry is Duke of Swabia and Leopold is Duke of Austria. The Dukes of Franconia and Bavaria have not yet been spawned (they will be the two males who take positions under the Emperor in the family tree).

4.2 Bavaria and Franconia have no Duke yet, so there are Stewards to act in their place until them. Until there is a Duke, they receive the +2 influence of a Duke.

Charter Amendment 3.1: Stewards may bestow the rank of Count on nobles of their House. This Amendment does not give Stewards any other Ducal power, it does not give Stewards additional Influence, nor does it allow Stewards to be Counts themselves.

The Stewards themselves are not Counts. Like Otto in Innsbruck, they are just soldiers, self-made men of lesser station [think Denethor in Lord of the Rings]. They could be rewarded by being made a Count by their Duke when he spawns, though. And they could marry into the Royal line, potentially becoming the Duke themselves.

4.3 The Emperor controls the initial allocation of settlements (e.g. upon conquest). At the start of the game, we have:

Frankfurt - capital of Franconia, home of the Duke (TBC)
Stafen - capital of Swabia, home of the Duke (Prince Henry)
Nuremburg - capital of Bavaria, home of the Duke (TBC)
Innsbruck - second city of Bavaria
Vienna - capital of Austria, home of the Duke (Leopold)
Bologna - is not assigned to any house

4.4 Dukes can then grant a settlement to a player, making him Count of that settlement. The settlements remain nominally within the relevant Duchy. There are no Counts at the start of the game. Capitals of a House need no Counts and cannot be given to them - they belong to the Duke (or his Steward). The Emperor could allocate Bologna to a House at any time, but after that, it will permanently belong to that House. There is an expectation that Franconia will extend north, Swabia west, Bavaria south and Austria east but this should not be followed too rigidly - e.g. the Emperor does not have to give Bologna to Bavaria.

[Note: It is expected that settlements will not be gifted lightly by the Emperor and by Dukes/Stewards - they should be regarded as precious rewards. There is no particular value to settlements in themselves, however. Avatars will be assigned according to the family tree, so more settlements does not mean more family members in a House - nor does it raise influence (beyond the one-off +1 for being a Count). A player cannot be the Count of more than one settlement. Dukes can have more than one settlement not dispersed to counts (and given the ratio of settlements to generals in a game, this is inevitable), but this provides no particular benefits.]

4.5: Counts are governors of their settlements. Dukes govern settlements that are allocated to their Houses but not to a Count. The Emperor governs settlements that are not allocated to any House.

4.6 Counts who are not the natural sons of a Duke (e.g. adoptees and sons in law) may be lose their titles at the whim of the Duke. They are referred to as bonded Counts and are expected to act according to the wishes of their Duke. Natural sons of a Duke may not lose their settlements - they are referred to as freehold Counts.

4.7 Dukes and Counts should name a successor, who will take over their titles and settlements when they die. If no successor is named, the oldest natural son inherits, (if none, oldest adopted son; if none again, then the oldest son-in-law).
Charter Amendment 8.1:
Clause 2: Amend 4.7 by adding: If a Duke resigns, the Kaiser appoints a successor.

4.8 Dukes are expected to guide their families for the good for their Duchies. Members of a house do not have to follow their Dukes in terms of politics. However, the Duke can make players a Count by giving them a settlement (granting them +1 influence). Only the Duke of your House (not another Duke) can make you a Count. Houses will not be the only division in the Diet - chivalry, piety, strategy and other factors may also divide players.

Charter Amendment 6.3: Dukes may bestow the title of Count on Electors without avatars.

OOC CA14.6: The lord of a settlement (Count, Duke, King or Kaiser) can veto any units in their settlement being trained for a particular Elector or purpose. They must inform the Chancellor of this veto in advance.


OOC CA14.7: Each Count or higher will have a feudal levy. These will be allocated by econ21 at each Diet and will consist of four or more units commensurate with the status and service of the player’s avatar. (Typically, a Count would have 1 mounted sergeant, 1 peasant archer or peasant crossbow, 1 sergeant spearmen and EITHER one DFK OR one feudal knight.)

Some illustrative notes on the feudal levy (these are not part of the CA and are subject to change):



If CA14.7 passes, at the next Diet, I will allocate feudal levies to players who are lords of a settlement. They will be commensurate with the lord's age and experience. Players will have to look after them for 10 turns (the Chancellor may retrain them) – then at the subsequent Diets, there will be scope to upgrade levies or replace existing ones.

For players who want it, I will implement a points based system. For the others, the levy can be decided informally. I will balance informal allocations to be about equal to what would arise with a points based system.

Administratively, what I will do is that – at the start of each Diet – reorder stacks so that the existing levies are top units in each player’s stack. At the end of each Diet, I will change these levies to reflect any upgrades or replacements. In the interval, players should use the Chancellor and Governors' orders thread to post any instructions about upgrading their levies - either informal requests or choices based on the points system. If players give no instructions, I will use my own judgement and the points system to adjust the levies.

Upgrade paths (costs)

3^ANY |ONE MAX|TWO MAX|EITHER|OR
3^Spear|Cavalry (Non-knightly)|Missile|Foot knight|Knight
7^Peasant (1)|Peasant (1)|Peasant (1)|Peasant (1)|Peasant (1)
7^Town militia (2)|Town militia (2)|Peasant Archer (2)|Town militia (2)|Town militia (2)
7^Spear militia (3)|Spear militia (3)|Peasant Crossbow (3)|Spear militia (3)|Spear militia (3)
7^Spear Sergeant (4)|Spear Sergeant (4)|Pavise Crossbow (6)|Spear Sergeant (4)|Spear Sergeant (4)
7^Armoured Sergeant (5)|Armoured Sergeant (5)|Handgunner (7)|Armoured Sergeant (5)|Armoured Sergeant (5)
7^|Merchant Cavalry (7)|Arquebusier (8)|DFK (9)|Merchant Cavalry (7)
7^|Mounted Sergeant (9)||DIK (10)|Mounted Sergeant (9)
7^|Mounted Crossbow (11)||DGK (11)|Mailed knight (11)
7^|Reiters (12)|||Feudal Knight (12)
7^||||Imperial Knight (13)
7^||||Gothic Knight (14)

Note: All lords have FOUR units. High lords have one additional knight class units; the Kaiser has two additional knight class units.

Explanatory notes

In order to be eligible for a feudal levy, you must be lord of a settlement.
Counts and Dukes are lords of the settlements they govern. The Prinz and Kaiser are always lords.

If you cease being a lord, your levy is disbanded at the next Diet. (This represents the loss of the social and economic basis of your levy).

Lords are entitled to four units in a feudal levy. High lords (Dukes, King of Outremer, Prinz) are entitled to five; the Kaiser to six.

When players first become lords, they start off with a feudal levy of four peasants. Every Diet, a lord is given 10 points they may “spend” those points to upgrade their units (high lords are given 13 points; the Kaiser 15). The cost of the upgrade is the difference in the cost of the two units. Armor or weapon upgrades cost one point per upgrade per unit.

Steps on upgrade paths may be skipped if points allow (so a Feudal knight could be upgraded straight to Gothic). But units may only be upgraded to a unit on the same path. (e.g. an archer cannot be upgraded to a knight.)

Units can be retrained at no extra cost: sacrifice will be rewarded.
But lost units are replaced by peasants - look after your men.



5 The role of the Emperor and Prince

5.1 The Emperor presides over the Imperial Diet as in 3.9. He is the "chairman" of the HRE, as opposed to the Chancellor who is the "chief executive". He will keep order in the Diet and try to make things run smoothly.

5.2 Once in his reign, the Emperor may automatically assume the post of Chancellor. The Emperor must declare he is exercising that right at a Diet; he will then be appointed Chancellor with no election. This right can only be invoked once, but the Emperor may also compete in normal Chancellorship elections at other Diets.

5.3 The Emperor can allocate settlements to one of the Four Houses.

5.4 The Emperor adjudicates on rules disputes.
Charter Amendment 11.7: The section of the Charter which currently reads "5.4 The Emperor adjudicates on rules disputes" will be changed to the following: 5.4 The Emperor adjudicates on rules disputes. However, if a rules dispute directly involves the Emperor, the four Dukes of the Realm (or their appointed deputies) will gather to assist the Emperor in clarifying the dispute. A simple vote among the Dukes would decide the dispute, with the Emperor having the tie-breaking vote.

5.5 The Prince succeeds the Emperor and can deputise in his absence.

Charter Amendment 11.2:The Prince is appointed by the Emperor upon his ascension to the throne. Should a Prince die a new heir has to be appointed immediately.[/i]

Charter Amendment 11.1: Whenever a large dispute arises over the legitamacy of one's succesion to a position of high power (Kaiser, King of Outremer, or Dukedom), a council shall be set forth to discuss the events and vote on who shal succede. Should the position of Kaiser be questioned, the four Dukes and the King of Outremer shall decide who is to become Kaiser. Should a Dukedom or the King of Outremer be under dispute, those not directly involved in the dispute shall be part of the council. In order for the council to be formed, at least one quarter of the voting power in the Reich is needed to for the council to be formed. Regarding the dukes, half of the voting period within the house is needed as the same with the King of Outremer which requires half of the crusader's votes.

5.6 Emperors do not belong to factions - if crowned, they leave their House and - if Duke - are replaced by their chosen successor. They are expected to act for the good of the Empire and be impartial, above petty regional politics.

5.7 The Emperor decides which player-controlled avatar, if any, a Princess should marry.


6. Armies and Battles

Rules 6.1, 6.2, and 6.3 have been removed.

6.4 For field armies of seven or more units (including the general), the Chancellor must appoint an “army commander”. The army commander must be a “knight”. Army commanders are appointed for the duration of the Imperial Diet session (10 turn intervals). The post is expected to be rotating. Army commanders can decide what to do with prisoners after battle. They can be dismissed by Chancellors, but must be informed of this.

6.5 Avatars who take part in battles may be promoted to “knights” by the army commander. Typically, this will involve the avatar’s bodyguard fighting honourably in a battle. The Emperor, Prince and four Dukes begin the game knighted.

6.6 The title of Field Marshall shall be given to the commanders of the Household Armies for the duration of their command.
Charter Amendment 4.1: Any inquisitor in Imperial lands should be hunted down by our men. When cornered with nowhere to run, they should be visited and discretely removed.

Charter Amendment 5.1: Each Duchy shall have a Household Army with which to defend its territories. The Household Army will be governed by the following clauses:

1) The Household Army may not be removed from the House’s provinces without the permission of the Duke.
2) The Duke will determine where the Household Army is to be garrisoned. This location can be changed at any time, so long as the Duke informs the Chancellor of the move. The Chancellor will not remove the Household Army from the garrison without the Duke’s permission, except as required to fulfill Clause 4.
3) The Duke will determine who commands the Household Army.
4) At the beginning of each Diet session the Duke may assign general orders to the Household Army, which are to be carried out by the Chancellor. Between Diet sessions, any additional orders submitted by Dukes are to be implemented only at the Chancellor's discretion. The Duke may select one of the following Orders: (1) attack any rebel force in House territory, (2) attack any hostile force in House territory, including other factions, (3) attack any foreign or rebel army in House territory, including neutral (but not allied or crusading) factions, (4) temporary assignment to another House, (5) assignment to offensive duties. If Order (4) is chosen, the Duke may determine the time limit of the temporary assignment and the commanding general, but all other decisions are made by the Duke of the receiving house. When the time limit expires, the Household Army must be immediately returned to House lands, no matter what other circumstances occur, unless the Duke agrees otherwise. If Order (5) is chosen, the Duke may specify an enemy settlement or army as the objective and the commanding general. The settlement or army must be in a province that borders the House and the Reich must already be at war with the target. All other decisions are made by the Chancellor. The Duke may recall the Household Army from offensive duties at any time and for any reason.
5) The Household Army will consist of a minimum of 3 infantry regiments, 2 ranged regiments, and 1 cavalry regiment. The Household Army will ideally consist of 4 infantry regiments, 3 ranged regiments, and 2 cavalry regiments. For the purposes of this rule, Generals’ bodyguard units do not count as cavalry regiments. All regiments must be professional soldiers, not militia.
6) If a Household Army falls below the minimum strength level, Imperial military recruitment must be allocated to restoring the Household Army to minimum strength before forces can be sent elsewhere.
7) The Chancellor will attempt to maintain the Household Armies at full strength, with the highest quality regiments available.
8) In emergencies, the Chancellor may detach any units in excess of the minimum strength level for use elsewhere. The Chancellor may not reduce a Household Army below the minimum strength level without the permission of the Duke.
9) If the Imperial Treasury cannot support all Household Armies at minimum strength, the Chancellor must consult with the Dukes and receive their permission to reduce the Household Armies in such a way as to eliminate the deficit.
10) The Imperial Diet may temporarily remove any or all of these rules by a simple majority vote. The temporary period will last no longer than 10 turns.

Charter Amendment 12.6: (1) Each House will have TWO standing Household Armies. They will operate according to CA5.1 in all respects, but have separate commanders appointed by the Duke.
(2) Outremer will have two standing armies. They will operate in accordance with CA9.1, but have separate commanders appointed by the King.
(3) The Kaiser and Prinz will each command standing Imperial armies, of the guideline size given in CA5.1. The Kaiser and Prinz can each give orders for their army during full Diet sessions. They are expected to personally command their own armies but can nominate a replacement commander at any time if they are too busy attending to civil matters. The Chancellor and the Kaiser/Prinz are expected to liase closely over the use of the deployment of the Kaiser/Prinz's army.


7. Crusades and missions.

7.1 The Chancellor must endeavour to follow missions from the Pope and Council of Nobles, unless exempted by the Diet. Missions from guilds and foreign powers are optional.

7.2 Crusades must be authorised by the Diet, unless announced by another faction.

7.3 When a crusade is called, the Chancellor must ask all generals if they wish to join. He must include at least three volunteers who reply within 48 hours. If there are more than three, he must pick the three most pious. However, he can decline a volunteer if that would usurp his pick of army commander. If the AI calls a crusade, the Chancellor can choose not to follow it, even if generals wish to join - but he must still notify them immediately of the call and get their view on whether they would like to join (were he to follow the call).

Charter Amendment 9.1:

The Charter of the Kingdom of Outremer

1. The Kingdom of Outremer will consist of Antioch, Acre, Adana, Aleppo, Edessa and Damascus.

2. The Kingdom of Outremer is an integral part of the Reich. It is not a fifth House.

3. The function of the Kingdom is defensive: to safeguard Jerusalem and protect the gateway to Christendom

4. The Kingdom will be overseen by a King of Outremer, who will be appointed by the Emperor at each full Diet session. The King will temporarily renounce all loyalties to his House for the duration of his appointment (e.g. if Duke, must appoint a Steward). The King of Outremer may propose up to 3 personal Edicts during each Diet session, but 2 must specifically deal with Outremer affairs. (Stricken portion overridden by Kaiser due to conflict with CA11.3.

5. The King will command a Household Army, both acting according to Charter Amendment 5.2 (with the King assuming the role of “Duke”). He may delegate the day to day command of the Army (assign other generals to lead it in battle). However, contrary to CA5.1, to be in accordance with article (1), the Army may not be used to permanently conquer neighbouring provinces (recapturing Christian settlements taken by non-Christians and returning them to their original owners would be allowed).

6. Outremer’s provinces will be governed by Crusading Counts. These will also be appointed at every Diet, by the new King. The Dukes and the Emperor will set the build queue for any provinces without a Count which are allocated to their control.

7. Both the King and Crusading Counts must be physically located outside Europe for the duration of their appointments.

8. All four Houses of the Reich have a stake in the Kingdom. Damascus is assigned to Austria; Adana is assigned to Bavaria; Acre is assigned to Swabia; and Aleppo is assigned to Franconia. Antioch will be the capital of Outremer and an Imperial province governed by the King of Outremer. Edessa will also be an Imperial province, governed by a Count chosen by the King of Outremer. The Crusading Count for a settlement must come from the appropriate House. They will gain +1 influence, but only if they are not already a Count in their Duchy, and only for the Diet session that marks their appointment. The cap of 6 influence for all but the Emperor remains.

Charter Amendment 11.3: The King of Outremer is allowed to propose three Edicts (or Charter Amendments) per Diet Session. Prior to being tabled in the Diet, these must be seconded by two Crusader Counts in the Council of Crusaders.

Charter Amendment 11.6: The position of King of Outremer is appointed by the emperor. This appointment lasts for the duration of the emperors reign or the Kings lifetime, whichever is shorter. The King of Outremer is permitted to resign, if the emperor is willing to accept the resignation, upon which a new King is appointed by the emperor. If the King of Outremer is deemed incapable of the assignment, he may be impeached by the emperor and 2 Dukes.


8. Historical armies

Only historical armies can fight battles (ahistorical stacks can be used for transport).

No more than half an army can be mercenary. Crusader mercenaries (crusader sergeants, crusader knights, pilgrims, fanatics) can count as natives.

Revised maxima for each unit type by number of units in stack

3^Type|1-5|6-10|11-15|16+
7^Generals|2|2|2|2
7^Knights|2|4|6|8
7^Cavalry|2|4|6|8
7^Missile inf|2|3|4|6
7^Elite inf|2|3|4|6
7^Other foot|Any|Any|Any|Any
7^Artillery|1|2|3|4


Crusades are exempt from restrictions on the number of generals.

Unit type definitions:
- Knights: Dismtd Feudal knights; Dismtd Imperial knights; Dismtd Gothic knights; Mailed knights; Feudal knights; Imperial knights; Teutonic knights; General’s bodyguard; Gothic knights; plus any mercenary knights or equivalent heavy cavalry.
- Cavalry: Any mounted knights plus non-knightly cavalry (Mounted crossbowmen ; Reiters; Merchant cavalry; Mounted sergeants, Turcomans etc)
-Foot missiles: Peasant archers; Peasant crossbowmen; Crossbow militia; Pavisse crossbowmen; Arquebusiers; Handgunners etc
-Elite infantry: Zweihander; Forlorn Hope; Landsknechts; dismounted knights and equivalent mercs - e.g. Galllowglass
-Other foot: Peasants; Town militia; Halberd militia; Spear militia; Sergeant spearmen; Armoured spearmen; Crusader sergeants; Pike militia

Here's the old german titles of nobility and our equivalents:

Political
Elector = Kurfurst
Count = Graf
Duke = Herzog
Prince = Prinz
Emperor = Kaiser

Military
Knight = Ritter
Field Marshal = Generalfeldmarshal

Zim
12-06-2007, 11:03
Ahh, a new, less crowded thread. *takes a deep breath*

I believe we were discussing the Swabian Civil War, it's possible winners, and the likely treatment in the Diet of the respective sides?

OverKnight
12-06-2007, 11:24
A part of me is glad I'm in my own little corner of the Reich and that I can sit back and enjoy the fireworks. :laugh4:

I anticipate many entries to the History for this Diet.

Zim
12-06-2007, 11:32
Just out of curiosity, since this is my first Diet, what kind of thing can I expect? Does it start kind of formally, or just a mass of Electors fighting to get their issues to be considered, oy maybe something in between?

FactionHeir
12-06-2007, 11:34
I was wanting to write more stories and fill my placeholders, but I keep lacking the spirit to do so. Maybe this weekend.

OverKnight
12-06-2007, 11:50
econ21 usually opens the Diet Session through a post in the current Diet Thread. It will be easy to spot this time, because the Diet Thread has been locked, so as soon as you see a new one, there you go. As soon as a session is open, Edicts and Charter Amendments can be proposed, seconded and debated. Candidates for Chancellor can also announce themselves and beginning slinging mud at each other.

If you want to get the feel of a Diet Session, the History has links to the beginnings of each one and the voting on legislation. Reviewing those will give you a good feel for what to expect.

edit: Dumb question, but where is the Diet going to be held? Rome is purple.

econ21
12-06-2007, 11:56
Just out of curiosity, since this is my first Diet, what kind of thing can I expect? Does it start kind of formally, or just a mass of Electors fighting to get their issues to be considered, oy maybe something in between?

More the mass fighting, really. :laugh4:

Normally, the Chancellor signs off with a final report and then the Kaiser opens the Diet. But then whoever proposes Edicts or CAs early has a chance to shape the debate.

Ideally, candidates for Chancellor post manifestoes early so that the debate - and edicts - can be centred around those.

Most Electors can only propose one Edict or CA, so in theory that limits the rush to get issues considered. Houses can propose three, IIRC, so there should be some side discussion in the House threads about those.

A key thing is to get the required two seconders for Edicts you support before the Diet closes.

Ignoramus
12-06-2007, 11:59
Are the rebels going to present at the Diet? I know it sounds rather silly for secessionists who have destroyed the Reich's western frontier to be present, but I heard some rumours from TC that Wolfgang might indeed be present. Can econ confirm/deny this?

And I'm just asking some advice to get the mod working.

Zim
12-06-2007, 12:09
Thanks, Econ21 and Overknight. I kind of figured it might get a bit raucous as people debated their issues. I'll check out one or two of the old Diet threads tonight, so I can get a feel for it.

I remember that electors get one proposal. I'll be thinking long and hard about that one. :yes: Don't want my first one to be wasted.

I wish I could run for Chancelor. For Jan, having taken Bruges and getting Alexander Luther to help him, getting at least a few votes and paving the way for winning at the sesion after that one might have been possible. For my new guy, with not a single accomplishment under his belt, it might be tougher. Guess I'll have another session to even lose an election. :clown:

Ignoramus, I just downloaded the mod to my desktop. Then I extracted the files into my MTW2 folder. It worked for me then. :yes:

econ21
12-06-2007, 12:11
Hi Ignoramus, don't go away!

I was just replying to your request for help installing the mod by a PM, but it might be better to do it publicly as Factionheir and anyone else can chip in about installing the mod.

It seems to me that your game is not reading the modded files. That raises the question, have you ever successfully installed kotorfix? Because the modded files for the Staufen mini-mod should be read in exactly the same way as those for kotorfix. Please can you tell me - what is Arnold called when you load up a savegame? Is he the Saint or the Inspriring? If he is the Saint, then you have not successfully installed kotorfix. If he is in the Inspiring, then getting your game to read the modded files is not the problem.

To get the game to read modded files, what you need to do is run M2TW with the --io.file_first
switch.

There are two ways to do this:

(a) go to the M2TW shortcut on your desktop. Right click and choose properties. Then under target you should have something like:

"C:\Program Files\Sega\Medieval\medieval2.exe"

you need to edit it to become:

"C:\Program Files\Sega\Medieval\medieval2.exe --io.file_first"

Click apply and ok. Then next time you run the game, it should work from the modded files you have put in the subdirectories not the original unpacked files.

(b) Alternatively, you could use an editor such as Word to create a file called, say, "kotor.bat". In that file write:

"C:\Program Files\Sega\Medieval\medieval2.exe --io.file_first"

Save the file as text only (not Word format). Then if you make a shortcut to that file and paste it onto your desktop, clicking on that shortcut should get the game to boot up using the modded files.

This is from memory - I can't access M2TW at the moment.

Ignoramus
12-06-2007, 12:11
Actually, Jan's death does you a favour - no one would vote for a rebel to become Chancellor; no one would dare take that risk.

Zim
12-06-2007, 12:13
Actually, Jan's death does you a favour - no one would vote for a rebel to become Chancellor; no one would dare take that risk.

Interesting, but would Wilhelm von Noaccomplishments be any more likely to win? I guess I'd have no chance either way. :clown:

Ignoramus
12-06-2007, 12:17
It says this when I try and run it:

"The name 'I:\Program Files\SEGA\Medieval II Total War\medieval2.exe --io.file_first' specified in the Target box is not valid. Make sure the path and file name are correct."

econ21
12-06-2007, 12:25
Are the rebels going to present at the Diet? I know it sounds rather silly for secessionists who have destroyed the Reich's western frontier to be present, but I heard some rumours from TC that Wolfgang might indeed be present. Can econ confirm/deny this?

At the start of the cataclysm, Tincow outlined a one-off system for giving rebels extra influence in the Diet, so OOC, I think the intention was to include them. IC, including them would be partly to try to heal things up and perhaps work out new political arrangements.

However, if - as Hummel's last private message to the Kaiser indicates - he wants complete secession from the Reich, then question marks would arise over whether he would want to attend and whether the Kaiser want to admit him.


It says this when I try and run it:

"The name 'I:\Program Files\SEGA\Medieval II Total War\medieval2.exe --io.file_first' specified in the Target box is not valid. Make sure the path and file name are correct."

So you are using the shortcut method? Are you putting the path and filename in double quotes ie " rather than ' ? What happens if you remove the --io.file_first switch? Does M2TW run?

What is Arnold called if you load up a savegame the way you normally play KotR?

Ignoramus
12-06-2007, 12:28
He's called "the Saint".

Without the --io.file_first switch, Medieval2 runs perfectly.

Zim
12-06-2007, 12:35
There's a way to add a lcouple of lines to your config file and get everything work. That might be easier. I could check mine to see what you have to type in if you'd like.

econ21
12-06-2007, 12:53
Ignoramus, given Arnold's name, it seems you have not installed Kotorfix.

I confess I am stumped why the game does not run with the switch.

Zim has suggested an alternative approach. Go to your medieval2.preference.cfg file and open it with a text editor and add the following to the top:

[io]
file_first = 1

[log]
to = logs/system.log.txt
level = * error

This will tell the game to use the files it finds in the data directory instead of those in the packs. It will also enable error logging to a custom error log, which is highly recommended, but not strictly necessary.

Please try this and get back to us.

TinCow
12-06-2007, 12:56
Make sure the .cfg file is marked read-only AFTER you alter it. I had similar problems when mine was not, because the game overwrites the changes to the .cfg file.

econ21
12-06-2007, 12:59
Make sure the .cfg file is marked read-only AFTER you alter it. I had similar problems when mine was not, because the game overwrites the changes to the .cfg file.

Just in case you don't know how to make it read only, Ignoramus, go to windows explorer, right click on the file and choose properties. At the bottomg there should be a read-only box you can tick. Tick it, press apply and ok.

FactionHeir
12-06-2007, 13:17
What econ and TC said.

You don't need errorlogging though unless you are modding yourself.
Btw, you have been playing KOTR without the fix all along? I remember prodding you about this several months back.

econ21
12-06-2007, 13:56
It's midnight in Australia right now, so I suspect Ignoramus has called it a day.

The map I chose for the sally is the Eifel Mountains map, with no settlement present. The loyalists were under orders to pull back to a bridge if attacked. They could not make it and are forced to turn and give battle. Staufen is in quite mountainous terrain, going by the maps you get in campaign if you fight there. Hummel should set up as player 1.

If Ignoramus can install the mod and send me a valid screenshot of the final battle result by 11pm UK time (10am AST), then I will accept it. Otherwise, we will move on to a siege assault.

Ramses II CP
12-06-2007, 14:40
Judging by historical context I'd say Hummel would need a specific invitation from the Kaiser and a guarantee of his safety before attending the Diet. What sort of building is required to host the Diet session? Fritz is looking for post-war political capital and he has a bit of money left, maybe I could build something at Hamburg since I doubt I'll be allowed (Or prepared) to march on Arhus just yet.

As I mentioned, I think if Hummel can wipe out the siege army then he's on an even footing with the loyalists. Athalwolf's troops were shaken by his approach last time and Ehrhart can't possible recruit enough forces to replace the men he's about to lose. I can't imagine what taking a citadel would look like as a PvP battle, but it would have to be nightmarish. Further, if you consider the ammo stats on the cannons from Bern the attackers are going to have to choose between holes in the walls or towers tearing them up through three levels.

:egypt:

deguerra
12-06-2007, 15:02
personally i'd go for something in the middle, like nürnberg (might propose a diet vote to have that name changed to the porper spelling :P)

actually speaking of diet votes, i was toying with the idea of a strictly IC Reichs-court to deal with all sorts of charter interpretation, new duchy, land allocation etc. matters. if we wanted to make the emperors role mroe interesting we could make it quite heavily emperor controlled, or perhaps vice versa.

any thoughts?

TinCow
12-06-2007, 15:09
Don't worry about the location of the Capital/Diet. econ21 and I have worked that out.

FactionHeir
12-06-2007, 16:25
I'm guessing it will be held at Frankfurt, where the Diet was held before Heinrich took Rome.

Very much like econ's addition to the Staufen thread btw. Adds a lot of flair to the story.

gibsonsg91921
12-06-2007, 23:07
frankfurt, where peter presently makes his humble abode

Ignoramus
12-06-2007, 23:22
Success!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I don't know how, but I've managed to get it working. I'll post up the confirmation screenshots of the two armies.

FactionHeir
12-06-2007, 23:24
Good. Hopefully you'll get the fix running permanently for the PBM too in future :tongue2:

I think you still have 35 mins left to play the battle btw.

Zim
12-06-2007, 23:26
Woohoo! A more interesting end-game for the Civil War and the chance for the enxt turn to start in the next couple days. :2thumbsup:

econ21
12-06-2007, 23:27
I'll post up the confirmation screenshots of the two armies.

Don't worry about that now. You have 35 minutes to fight the battle. :clock:

gibsonsg91921
12-06-2007, 23:28
this will go right down to the wire.

Ignoramus
12-06-2007, 23:31
So the loyalists are the defenders, right?

FactionHeir
12-06-2007, 23:34
Yep.

Ramses II CP
12-07-2007, 00:19
None of my forces are at stake, but if he's actually started the battle I'd be inclined to be lenient to some extent on the time... :2thumbsup:

:egypt:

Zim
12-07-2007, 00:23
None of my forces are at stake, but if he's actually started the battle I'd be inclined to be lenient to some extent on the time... :2thumbsup:

:egypt:

I think they are being lenient, since the 35 minutes was over 20 minutes ago. :clown: I hope they let him finish, too. It will make things much more interesting for the game.

Ignoramus
12-07-2007, 00:53
In case anyone's wondering, the battle has been fought, but econ is thinking about what to do about a consequence of the battle. Hence, I'm not going to reveal what the result was yet.

FactionHeir
12-07-2007, 00:55
Because you captured all the routers too? :grin:

gibsonsg91921
12-07-2007, 00:56
probably. he probably kicked too much butt than was realistically possible. we'll see. we'll also see how peter reacts to the outcome of this battle.

Ramses II CP
12-07-2007, 01:46
Poor Hummel, ambitious to the end. :oops:

:egypt:

Zim
12-07-2007, 01:55
Sorry, Ignoramus, I guess there's a curse on Rebel generals fighting A.I. :clown:

econ21
12-07-2007, 02:09
I guess TinCow will be moving on to the last year of the cataclysm, 1338, in the next day or two. I think it may be a quick one and then we can open the Diet.

I realise quite a few players are without avatars right now. To bring the cataclysm to a smooth end, my suggestion is that they sit out the next turn, but think hard about who they want as a future avatar. They can look at the list of maturing sons on the family tree and also think about getting a recruitable general.

I would like all players should be assigned as Electors of a specific House for the Diet so that everyone has a vote. If you want a recruitable general, let me know and I'll arrange with TinCow that one is recruited for you in 1338, arriving in 1340 in time for the Diet. Players who are waiting for someone on the family tree can still role-play nameless electors in the Diet (eg 4th Austrian Elector, etc) until their picks mature.

Ignoramus
12-07-2007, 02:31
It's a rotten way to die. And now there's very few Swabian avatars left.

TinCow
12-07-2007, 02:37
I will try to get the 1338 turn done and posted tomorrow. For clarification of econ21's previous post, I will be spawning a recruitable general for Zin which will appear in 1338. If anyone else wants an avatar to appear in 1338, you need to tell me in the next 12 hours or so.

Northnovas
12-07-2007, 02:40
It's a rotten way to die. And now there's very few Swabian avatars left.

That's too bad Ig. At least you are having interesting ways for your avatars to die off in the game. However, I am glad to see you could get the mod working and try the battle in a different format. Good Show!

Cecil XIX
12-07-2007, 03:07
Sorry about your loss, Hummel.

I must say, I'm dissapointed that the Reich has survived the Cataclysm with no changes to it's structure. It's irritated me how static this four house system is.

deguerra
12-07-2007, 03:10
hey you chckened out too:clown:

more seriously though, i mentioned earlier that ludwig might propose a strictly IC reichs court. perhaps that could deal better with matters like secession from houses and forming of new ones, making it less violent and potentially easier

Ignoramus
12-07-2007, 03:13
Sorry about your loss, Hummel.

I must say, I'm dissapointed that the Reich has survived the Cataclysm with no changes to it's structure. It's irritated me how static this four house system is.

I did my best. It's just that Franconia, Austria, or Bavaria didn't have any rebellions.

AussieGiant
12-07-2007, 04:11
Getting killed is the more traditional way of ending a rebellion...so kudos to Igno for following historical form. :2thumbsup:

I must also say good work Igno, your rebellion was certainly one of the most dramatic.

Keep in mind when it comes to "separation"...what has not been accomplished by force of arms and "stand off" tactics, can be done politically.

Cecil XIX
12-07-2007, 04:16
hey you chckened out too:clown:

Actually, Becker demanded everything he ever wanted in exchange for everything he never cared about. A fair part of me wishes Arnold hadn't agreed, but Becker certainly could have done worse. 'Course, worse would have been fun it's own well. Ah well, no use looking back now.

AussieGiant
12-07-2007, 04:19
Actually, Becker demanded everything he ever wanted in exchange for everything he never cared about. A fair part of me wishes Arnold hadn't agreed, but Becker certainly could have done worse. 'Course, worse would have been fun it's own well. Ah well, no use looking back now.

Yes unfortunately we managed to negotiate so well that there was very little difference in what we wanted from each other. :oops:

OverKnight
12-07-2007, 05:17
From what I understand rebellions and PvP will be an option even after the Cataclysm. But, I wouldn't rebel just for the hell of it. As past events have shown, the results are quite dire.

Northnovas
12-07-2007, 05:36
From what I understand rebellions and PvP will be an option even after the Cataclysm. But, I wouldn't rebel just for the hell of it. As past events have shown, the results are quite dire.

How true the rebels have not fared well at any point in the history of the game.

Warluster
12-07-2007, 07:28
Sorry for your loss Ig...

Though I hope you stay in Swabia (Swabia area)

Stuperman
12-07-2007, 07:34
although I wasn't privy to all the behind the scenes stuff, from what was posted in the IMS it sounds like Hummel could have negotiated his way into his own duchy/principality had he known when to quit. Still it was entertaining while it lasted.

AussieGiant
12-07-2007, 08:56
although I wasn't privy to all the behind the scenes stuff, from what was posted in the IMS it sounds like Hummel could have negotiated his way into his own duchy/principality had he known when to quit. Still it was entertaining while it lasted.


I definately think Hummel had the best chance of success. The others for various reasons did not seem to gain the right amount of luck and momentum as his.

And yes it has been clearly stated that the ability to rebel will be available and handled by Econ and TC once we get back to "normal". That will certainly add a degree of background pressure to the various relationships.

Privateerkev
12-07-2007, 08:58
Around the beginning of this cataclysm, I was worried that it would be too easy and no avatars would die. But now we've lost quite a few avatars. This has certainly shaken things up. The next diet will be quite interesting. :yes:

AussieGiant
12-07-2007, 08:59
Around the beginning of this cataclysm, I was worried that it would be too easy and no avatars would die. But now we've lost quite a few avatars. This has certainly shaken things up. The next diet will be quite interesting. :yes:

I was of the same opinion also...turns out it was quite the opposite.

Privateerkev
12-07-2007, 09:01
I was of the same opinion also...turns out it was quite the opposite.

Does Arnold miss his nemesis? :beam:

AussieGiant
12-07-2007, 09:07
Does Arnold miss his nemesis? :beam:

mmmm...interesting question. I'm not sure he was Arnold nemesis, plus, is he really dead or living on in others? :beam:

Jans death certainly removed a few pages of prepared Diet material...so that is a shame.

It was going to be a blood bath of fairly entertaining proportions. :yes:

Privateerkev
12-07-2007, 09:16
mmmm...interesting question. I'm not sure he was Arnold nemesis, plus, is he really dead or living on in others? :beam:

Jans death certainly removed a few pages of prepared Diet material...so that is a shame.

It was going to be a blood bath of fairly entertaining proportions. :yes:

Oh he is quite dead. It's just that his wife was carrying on his agenda since I wanted something to do while I waited for an avatar. Playing Alfgarda lets me take a slightly less involved roll so I can finish the semester, yet is still fun since there is an established character that is tied in to established plots. I admit it seems like the "easy way out" but I never have intended to play her for long. Just something to fill the time. :yes:

I was looking forward to the next Diet session with Jan and Arnold going at it. I was also planning on having Jan support Becker but that seems to be all sorted out anyways. Basically, this cataclysm has gone nothing like how I thought it would go but I sure had a lot of fun. :2thumbsup:

FactionHeir
12-07-2007, 09:18
Impressive fighting Ignoramus. Sorry to hear Wolfgang died that early (and not in captivity! :jumping:)
Hope you stay in Swabia without rebelling this time :grin:

AussieGiant
12-07-2007, 09:29
Oh he is quite dead. It's just that his wife was carrying on his agenda since I wanted something to do while I waited for an avatar. Playing Alfgarda lets me take a slightly less involved roll so I can finish the semester, yet is still fun since there is an established character that is tied in to established plots. I admit it seems like the "easy way out" but I never have intended to play her for long. Just something to fill the time. :yes:

I was looking forward to the next Diet session with Jan and Arnold going at it. I was also planning on having Jan support Becker but that seems to be all sorted out anyways. Basically, this cataclysm has gone nothing like how I thought it would go but I sure had a lot of fun. :2thumbsup:

I understand the use of Alfgarda given the reality of your studying situation.

I don't think you are using an "easy way out". It allows you to stay in the game which is important.

I was expecting Jan to support Becker, but honestly it would have been a long shot to survive both politically and/or physically once the Reich started getting back to normal.

Zim
12-07-2007, 09:30
Impressive fighting Ignoramus. Sorry to hear Wolfgang died that early (and not in captivity! :jumping:)
Hope you stay in Swabia without rebelling this time :grin:

Surely you wouldn't ask him to break with tradition that way? :beam:

Ignoramus
12-07-2007, 13:24
Impressive fighting Ignoramus. Sorry to hear Wolfgang died that early (and not in captivity! :jumping:)
Hope you stay in Swabia without rebelling this time :grin:

Thanks. Actually, it was econ who suggested I rebel, and the idea seemed reasonable to me, so there we have it.

Only 96 men survived in Ruppel's army; Half were archers, and the heavy bombard had 20 men.

econ21
12-07-2007, 14:12
Thanks. Actually, it was econ who suggested I rebel...

:inquisitive:

I don't recall doing that exactly. Before the Diet at the start of Siegfried's reign, Ituralde, TinCow and I actually had Hans (Factionheir) pencilled in as the leading rebel. I do recall encouraging Ignoramus to have Hummel back up Hans in opposing Siegfied. Hans was disaffected at Siegfried's succession and so seemed a plausible person to lead a rebellion - killing the Pope and perhaps falling under suspicion for Siegfried's death. However, as things turned out, Hans ended up as the arch loyalist so we enlisted Dietrich (GH) and Lothar to play the roles we had previously sketched for him.

I don't think I suggested Hummel rebel against Hans although - as with the Prague affair - I did welcome it OOC as adding an internal dimension to the cataclysm.

Dutch_guy
12-07-2007, 14:46
I will be leaving the country tomorrow, so I will not be able to access M2TW for the time I'm gone. Meaning I won't be able to fight a battle manually until the beginning of next year. I have contacted Ferret (Dieter), asking if he'd mind taking Tancred under his wing for the duration of my absence, but as I have sent it about a minute ago, I haven't gotten a reply yet.

I have updated the Active Duty list.

:balloon2:

OverKnight
12-07-2007, 14:49
Hey econ21, since that part of the plot is out in the open, did Matt's impromptu defiance in staying behind surprise you, or was that part of your machiavellian plan all along? :laugh4:

TinCow
12-07-2007, 15:22
Fortunately, I have today off from work. I am taking the save now to work on 1338. I hope to have it up by mid-afternoon EST.

econ21
12-07-2007, 15:51
Hey econ21, since that part of the plot is out in the open, did Matt's impromptu defiance in staying behind surprise you, or was that part of your machiavellian plan all along? :laugh4:

Which defiance do you mean? Staying behind in Adana ages ago or staying behind in Outremer recently? If you mean Adana then, yes, it was surprising - although I expected someone (I thought it would be King Jan) to act against Outremer being gifted.

_Tristan_
12-07-2007, 17:21
Hi, people...

Seeing as your cataclysm period comes to an end, would it be possible to join ?

Ferret
12-07-2007, 17:29
Hi, people...

Seeing as your cataclysm period comes to an end, would it be possible to join ?

:jumping: :jumping:

I'm sure the answer is yes. All you need to do is decide which house you want to join and then decide whether you want a recruitable general or wait for a family member. You can download the latest save game to get a feel for each house and check for any free family members. It's good to see that this PBM is expanding a lot recently, the more the merrier.


I will be leaving the country tomorrow, so I will not be able to access M2TW for the time I'm gone. Meaning I won't be able to fight a battle manually until the beginning of next year. I have contacted Ferret (Dieter), asking if he'd mind taking Tancred under his wing for the duration of my absence, but as I have sent it about a minute ago, I haven't gotten a reply yet.

I have updated the Active Duty list.

:balloon2:

I have graciously accepted :clown:

_Tristan_
12-07-2007, 17:44
Being possibly the only French among you all English-speaking folks, I would like to play for Swabia (which covers most of France), which is in a sorry state from what I have gathered...

I would choose a recruitable general (and if possible with a somewhat French sounding name, but I don't know if it can be done... as i may have some ideas to RP)... Anything will do otherwise...

One last question : KoTR needs a modded game... Does it interact in any way with Vanilla M2TW or any other mods installed ?
From what I understand, it requires me to unpack the files, right ?

Privateerkev
12-07-2007, 17:51
With so many people seeking avatars, the cataclysm winding down, and my own busy life stabilizing a bit, I figure this is a good time to announce that I am officially retiring Alfgarda and am joining House Austria. Econ and TC have been aware of this and I have just been passing the time while I wait for one of my two possible avatars to come about. I plan on either taking the man Zirn's eldest daughter marries, or Jan Zirn when he comes of age. Who ever comes first. If Zirn's daughter does not marry before the Diet, I will be a generic Austrian elector so Austria can benefit from the fifth player.

I'm doing this because I really want a family tree avatar and Austria has the next open ones coming up. Plus they have less players while Franconia has more. I do thank Ramses for being a good sport with the Alfgarda/Fritz feud. I needed something that would be an excuse to have her retire and he stepped up well. Our IC PM's are quite amusing and I might even post them one day with his permission. So, this has nothing to do with the IC interactions in House Franconia. It's the opposite. I changed the IC interactions to provide a plausible excuse for Alfgarda's retirement.

Since Alfgarda will still actually be alive, I will need to have her retire completely. She'll fade into the background like some of our other characters have. I will not actively pursue her/Jan's agenda. I don't want to play multiple characters at once and I think it isn't fair anyways. So, I'll write a story or two to ties things up in-game and then I'll start being Austrian. :beam:

econ21
12-07-2007, 17:51
Welcome, Tristan. :bow:

I will ask TinCow to recruit a Swabian for you - although we can't control the name AFAIK.

The game does run a mod - details are on the first post in this thread. What most people do, I think, is run it through a bat file so that vanilla is unaffected. If you have another mod installed there could be a conflict - best liase with Factionheir, who designed our mod, about that.

There's no need to use the unpacker.

Ferret
12-07-2007, 17:53
The mod is only a small one and does not require unpacked files (only a quick custom battle one did) but it is best to ask FH about it as I have still not managed to get it to work :sweatdrop:. The latest changelog can be found in this post I think:https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showpost.php?p=1760669&postcount=1

The recruitable generals have random names from the German name database and I doubt there will be any strong French names in there and I don't know of any way to mod this.

Edit: this post is pretty pointless now lol

Stuperman
12-07-2007, 17:55
Being possibly the only French among you all English-speaking folks, I would like to play for Swabia (which covers most of France), which is in a sorry state from what I have gathered...

I would choose a recruitable general (and if possible with a somewhat French sounding name, but I don't know if it can be done... as i may have some ideas to RP)... Anything will do otherwise...

One last question : KoTR needs a modded game... Does it interact in any way with Vanilla M2TW or any other mods installed ?
From what I understand, it requires me to unpack the files, right ?

Welcome!

I don't think you need to unpack anything, and the easiest way to install the mod (in my opinion) is to copy the shortcut and add the '--io.first_file' thing to the copied shortcut. Your original shortcut will lead to the unmodded game, and the new one will open the modded version.

I'm not sure how much control there is over the names of recruitable generals, if Hugo Merode is still alive then i imagine you could take him without much arguement, he the french-ist name I've seen so far, he was one of Dieter's crew though, and getting him into the house of Swabia IC might be hard to do.

Privateerkev
12-07-2007, 17:56
Welcome Tristan! I was wondering when you'd finally stop lurking and just join us. :beam:

FH's mod is so easy even I can load it and set up the separate desktop icon. Though I needed FH's patient help to accomplish that. If you use the separate icon, the mod won't affect your vanilla game at all. Just click on one icon to play SP and the other to play KotR saves. :2thumbsup:

_Tristan_
12-07-2007, 18:08
Thanks for the greetings, folks...

The name of the Merode character would have been cool but it seems he has a lot of history behind him...

Anyway, I'll make do with what the game comes up with...

Ramses II CP
12-07-2007, 18:14
Many of the things I had Fritz endorse were kind of guaged to give you a way out of Alfgarda, though of course the inflammatory stuff might've done just the opposite as well. None of the messages need to be considered actually 'private' for IC or OOC reasons, after all it's stuff that Fritz actually did commit to paper and it's very much in line with his character.

Just as an FYI for anyone who isn't aware, Fritz is infertile and has a history of being disrespectful to women so he was none too pleased at Alfgarda's demands on Franconia. :laugh4: Get this, though, he recovered the Holy Prepuce in the occupation of Hamburg. Since, mostly for OOC reasons (Re: I think Fritz is exceptionally unpleasant), I don't particularly want Fritz to reproduce I'm concocting a way to use it to win the Pope's approval for the document I just posted in the IMS thread.

Oh, and welcome Tristan!

:egypt:

TinCow
12-07-2007, 18:17
Unfortunately, I cannot recruit an avatar for Tristan for 1338. I have already advanced the game to 1338 and done a TON of editing to the save. In order to get him a new avatar, I would have to go back to the 1336 save, add another one to the queue, and then redo ALL of the edits. Given that the cataclysm is ending and that the new Swabian recruits have pretty much no power of their own anyway, I think it's the lesser of two evils for me to put off his recruitment until 1340.

_Tristan_
12-07-2007, 18:25
I see no problem with that...

Ferret
12-07-2007, 19:16
Fritz is gonna pay for what he said, Dieter has seen those letters (sent to him by Alfgarda) and is not happy :P

Ramses II CP
12-07-2007, 19:33
Pfft, Dieter's going to punish Fritz with his brother sitting over Dieter's head as Prinz? Doesn't sound like something Fritzy's gonna be too scared of.

:egypt:

Ferret
12-07-2007, 19:36
I'll find a way...eventually

FactionHeir
12-07-2007, 19:59
Bob_the_great: So is it working for you now or you still need help?
Tristan: You got pm.

Merode wasn't ever spawned in the KOTR game from what I know, but outside to generate some random stats. He's dead regardless.

TinCow
12-07-2007, 20:41
FYI: Ignoramus' new avatar is Maximillian von Hapsburg. Zim's is Andreas von Salzgitter.

FactionHeir
12-07-2007, 21:16
Heh, Ignoramus is to start the Hapsburg dynasty someday? :grin2:

TinCow
12-07-2007, 21:50
I made a huge error in the original 1338 save, so I have updated the report and uploaded a new save file. Andreas von Salzgitter was meant to start in Acre, not Metz.

[edit] Please point out any other errors you notice. I seem to have made a few this turn.

Zim
12-07-2007, 22:05
Wow, Andreas has some pretty nice stats for a just spawned character. Bit older, too, but I imagine that's why his stats atart out so decent. :yes:

He also appears well equipped for Outremer. With that chain mail thing on hi head, noone will know if he's bald like Jan con der Pfalz. Bwahahahahahahah!

Edit: Could anyone possibly tell me where Salzgitter is? I may edit my backstory to include it.

FactionHeir
12-07-2007, 22:08
He's at Acre
Salzgitter is a tiny place in the center of Germany.
http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salzgitter

Zim
12-07-2007, 22:14
Sorry, I meant "is from", as you've already deduced. :clown: Thanks for the info, I'll look at the link right now.

P.S. Alright! With sixteen total stats and six+ in Loyalty, I think Andreas has two influence. I get to vote at the diet. :beam:

Warmaster Horus
12-07-2007, 23:42
Bienvenue, Tristan! Nice to have you with us.

Ignoramus... Sorry about your loss. T'would have been interesting to see how the rebellion ended if you had won.

gibsonsg91921
12-08-2007, 00:21
ooc, if wolfgang won, peter would have come and pwned him

econ21
12-08-2007, 01:16
Nice story, Zim and Overknight. :2thumbsup:

Zim
12-08-2007, 01:20
Thanks, Econ21! :beam:

Both of us are up late most evenings (I think he works late at night), and we just sorted it all out in one night. I'd write a section, pm it to him, he'd do one, etc. :yes: Once I had a name and birthplace for my guy, I just editted and posted.

Warluster
12-08-2007, 01:39
I have to agree, I love the Outremer situation, its so cool its movie stuff.

And welcome Tristan!

AussieGiant
12-08-2007, 01:52
Weclome Tristan!!

OK and Zim, great writing there. Excellent stuff.

...PK, PK, PK....what have you gotten us into now :dizzy2:

:beam:

Privateerkev
12-08-2007, 01:57
Think of it, I'll be yelling on Arnold's behalf instead of against him! ;)

Just kidding. I am probably done with the yelling for awhile. It can be fun but it can also be draining. As for the personality I'll take on, I want to look at the avatar before I figure out an agenda and such. This one will be a clean slate and I am looking forward to it. :yes:

You wanted more electors. Be careful what you wish for... :clown:

AussieGiant
12-08-2007, 02:10
Got your PM PK.

We can chat there.

Do you mean Johann or Jan the youngest Zirn son?

GeneralHankerchief
12-08-2007, 02:11
I think Northnovas has called dibs on Johann after Karl bites it.

Privateerkev
12-08-2007, 02:11
Karl Zirn is getting up there in years so I figured NN would take Johann. I'll take the daughter's new husband or Jan Zirn (which ever comes first).

AussieGiant
12-08-2007, 02:25
GH, PK,

yeah that's what the unofficial gentlemen’s agreement seems to be which I am glad to see is holding.

Karl is on deaths door so that would be a nice move in my opinion.

Ignoramus
12-08-2007, 05:19
Given the name of my character, I'm tempted to join Austria.

OverKnight
12-08-2007, 05:35
The Greeks took Antioch! Arggghhhh. I was hoping to get one more turn out of the siege while I brought up reinforcements. :furious3: I certainly understand the ban on night attacks, but it's frustrating to have a shiny toy and be unable to play with it.

Of course, this will make my eventual revenge, err Holy Mission, so much the sweeter.

When we go back to normal rules, there's going to be blood, even before that if I can goad the #!@#$!s into an attack. :whip:

@Zim, you're going to be joining Matt's army. We'll see if we can get you knighted.

Northnovas
12-08-2007, 05:42
Thanks for everyone's understanding. I am just glad we now have the recruitable general option so any new player does not have to wait for an avatar like in the early stages of the game. Otherwise I would not have called "dibs". :bow:

Zim
12-08-2007, 06:12
Given the name of my character, I'm tempted to join Austria.

As much as I'd hate to see someone leave Swabia, that would be incredibly cool if you did, and you managed to become Duke eventually. :yes:

Overknight, sounds good. I was hoping he'd be able to join your army. I'll tell Tincow right now.

AussieGiant
12-08-2007, 06:52
Given the name of my character, I'm tempted to join Austria.

Igno you should get your ass to Austria for sure...that name has to be in the Duchy!! :2thumbsup:

Privateerkev
12-08-2007, 10:14
Join Austria.

It's the cool new thing to do. :2thumbsup:

*trendsetter*

:clown:

econ21
12-08-2007, 10:42
Given the name of my character, I'm tempted to join Austria.

Go for it. Eue may find something strangely irresistable about your family name. Bear in mind, though, that Elberhard would have a preference for a loyal and chivalrous son in law.

EDIT: I've updated the playlist to reflect recent changes (people's stats are not updated yet though):

https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showpost.php?p=1383081&postcount=1

Ignoramus
12-08-2007, 10:49
Right, Austria it is then! Only a Hapsburg could make me change Houses.

AussieGiant
12-08-2007, 10:54
Welcome to the Darkside young apprentices...

make sure you ask Karl Zirn many questions before approaching the Dark Lord of the Duchy.

:clown:

I can't believe I've gone from a nice little House to bloody 6 of us in the space of a few days.

Econ,

The Austrian House thread response is meant to be a type of "rough" welcome home from Arnold...he's trying. :beam:

I really like to be the Kaiser one day...I wonder how I could swing that now...hmmmmm

OverKnight
12-08-2007, 11:10
It's interesting how the houses, mostly, have evened out in regards to number of players. It only seems a while back there was 3 each in Bavaria and Austria and Franconia had about six.

econ21
12-08-2007, 11:14
The Austrian House thread response is meant to be a type of "rough" welcome home from Arnold...he's trying. :beam:

Answered in the same spirit. :2thumbsup:


I really like to be the Kaiser one day...I wonder how I could swing that now...hmmmmm

No offence to Prinzes past and present - this applies as much to Elberhard as anyone - but I think what you need to do is pick the youngest, most unlikely and inappropriate avatar to be Emperor. I got Elberhard killed off a while back to check out the succession and let's just say, if that prophesy is realised, the Reich would be in for very interesting times after Kaiser Peter.

AussieGiant
12-08-2007, 11:14
Yes OK, there does seem to be a swing of sorts occurring.

I've gone a little over the top in the Austrian House thread...it's all meant to be in good solid rough love by the Duke, so don't take it the wrong way.

Privateerkev
12-08-2007, 11:20
It's interesting how the houses, mostly, have evened out in regards to number of players. It only seems a while back there was 3 each in Bavaria and Austria and Franconia had about six.

What's funny is now Austria is the largest House with 6 players and the rest have 5 each. It proves that we somehow, slowly, lurch towards equilibrium. ^_^

AussieGiant
12-08-2007, 11:21
Thanks econ, good to see you got the concept I was aiming for.

Arnold's quite relieved you turned up and went the direction you did.


No offence to Prinzes past and present - this applies as much to Elberhard as anyone - but I think what you need to do is pick the youngest, most unlikely and inappropriate avatar to be Emperor. I got Elberhard killed off a while back to check out the succession and let's just say, if that prophesy is realised, the Reich would be in for very interesting times after Kaiser Peter.

Johann Zirn perhaps Econ?

My best bet was marrying one of the princesses...but the Duke's too old now.

Ahh well...Duke's not too bad. Maybe Chancellor will be enough to set the cat amongst the pidgeons :wink3:

Ignoramus
12-08-2007, 11:22
I know who would succeed, and econ's right, it was the last person I would have thought would succeed.

Privateerkev
12-08-2007, 11:23
My best bet was marrying one of the princesses...but the Duke's too old now.

Ahh well...Duke's not too bad. Maybe Chancellor will be enough to set the cat amongst the pidgeons

You could always go to Outremer and become King. Tell Dukes to go !@#$ themselves. As long as the Kaiser likes you, it's all good. :2thumbsup:

:clown:

AussieGiant
12-08-2007, 11:25
I know who would succeed, and econ's right, it was the last person I would have thought would succeed.


So who the hell was it!!!???

AussieGiant
12-08-2007, 11:27
You could always go to Outremer and become King. Tell Dukes to go !@#$ themselves. As long as the Kaiser likes you, it's all good. :2thumbsup:

:clown:

I don't think the Kaiser actually likes Arnold...PK...that is the problem.

Privateerkev
12-08-2007, 11:28
So who the hell was it!!!???

I would crack up laughing if it was Dieter von Kassel (mini-econ)... :laugh4:

The heir mechanic seems to like to go left to right starting with the youngest and then moves down a level.

deguerra
12-08-2007, 11:30
obviously Ludwig will be next emperor. all i need to do is get in the family tree :book:

Privateerkev
12-08-2007, 11:31
obviously Ludwig will be next emperor. all i need to do is get in the family tree :book:

Fight a lot of battles and pray for MotH. Or lobby the Kaiser for one of his daughters. Those are about your only two options. :book:

Ignoramus
12-08-2007, 11:46
It was actually von Kassel.

econ21
12-08-2007, 12:07
It was actually von Kassel.

Blooming heck, Ignoramus - you killed Elberhard? I know I had Hummel die at Staufen but that is harsh. :laugh4:

The computer's pick of heir is mad. Literally. I should hasten to add that I assigned von Kassel to Mini Econ before knowing of the succession.

Mini-Econ was very deflated last night to see his new trait. I told him it would be great to role-play a nutter but I am not sure he is convinced.

Elberhard's bad language trait has also got worse thanks to the sea voyage home. If anyone notices a less kind and less gentle Kaiser, you'll know why.

OverKnight
12-08-2007, 12:34
I need some advice. Before I can get anywhere in Outremer, I need to get rid of this stack led by Capt. Modestos:

https://i207.photobucket.com/albums/bb88/douglaslain/deathstack.jpg

This army has been giving me fits since it appeared north of Antioch. How do I crack this nut? Even if I'm able to take it on one to one, it would likely carve me up. It may be only captain led, but silver chevron infantry with armor and weapon upgrades are scary. Also all those Guard Archers have a 14 melee skill, so a flank or rear attack with cav isn't going to collapse them. If I can't get past the archers to flank the infantry line, the Varangians and Latinkon will wear down my infantry. Keep in mind the bombards and trebs as well.

So, what would you all do with this monster? There's no cav, but that doesn't seem to matter.

Ferret
12-08-2007, 12:37
yep for me the order of next heirs after Peter has always been Dieter von kassel and then Dieter Bresch, but he'd be too old to take over by then.

_Tristan_
12-08-2007, 12:37
The fightts you are getting into in this game are just insane !!!

Ferret
12-08-2007, 12:39
that is what happens when you release TC with a console and orders to create huge armies :)

FactionHeir
12-08-2007, 13:15
Tell me about it. Swabia has 3 gold and 1 silver stack at her doors :grin:

I actually wanted to have Eue marry Ruppel, but it seems TC omitted something in this 1338 report: Ruppel got married to some 18 year old :dizzy:

So with Ignoramus leaving Swabia, we got 3 players there now (excluding Zim who is Outremer), right?
Btw, econ: Elberhard got the third level in Crude back many many years ago. I think 8 or 9 turns after he got rid of it actually.

econ21
12-08-2007, 13:18
So with Ignoramus leaving Swabia, we got 3 players there now (excluding Zim who is Outremer), right?

Yes, but Tristan will be joining you in 1340.

EDIT:


Btw, econ: Elberhard got the third level in Crude back many many years ago. I think 8 or 9 turns after he got rid of it actually.

I was referring to the "spits venom" trait. I don't recall every having that before. Although it seems fitting given the situation. BTW, any ideas what caused his authority to slip to one from two? Was it our losing settlements or his acquiring bad traits?

FactionHeir
12-08-2007, 13:23
Ahhh I didn't even know he had Feck.
But yes, that trait reduced his authority by 1 on the third level (it has 4 levels)

Err, congratulations to being the emperor with the lowest authority in history?

econ21
12-08-2007, 13:31
Ahhh I didn't even know he had Feck.

Oh, so that's what its called. Now I know how to role-play Elberhard in his dotage - like Father Jack in Father Ted.

https://img525.imageshack.us/img525/4566/fatherjackik8.jpg (https://imageshack.us)

"Drink!"

"Girls!"

"Feck!"

Maybe I should get Mini-Econ to play von Kassel as Father Dougal. :laugh4:

FactionHeir
12-08-2007, 13:41
I would comment on that if I knew what you were talking about :grin:

econ21
12-08-2007, 13:50
I would comment on that if I knew what you were talking about :grin:

You don't know what you've been missing:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sbkz_QE38pw&feature=related

Ramses II CP
12-08-2007, 15:02
Matthias: Bring archers and crossbows. Lots. Find a big hill and put your cavalry in position to slip behind the enemy attack. The AI will advance, reliably leaving their trebuchets and bombards hanging behind them for your flanking cavalry to clean up. Shoot the infantry, not the archers, as they advance. If you have cannon or ribaults fire them into the infantry as well. The cavalry that pick off the artillery should then pick out the Byzantine captain's company of archers (Note they have 0 experience) and charge them into obliteration while you hold the infantry line. After their captain dies the enemy infantry should break, especially if you can still put bombard shots or some fire arrows into them at the same time.

You'll lose a significant amount of cavalry (I always seem to :laugh4: ) but the rest of your army should be mostly intact. As your infantry pursue theirs through the ranks of the archers your remaining cavalry can hit those silver bar archers in the rear at the same time and they should break as well.

The key point will be killing the enemy captain in time to prevent heavy infantry losses. I haven't looked at your stack, but if you have enough cavalry it shouldn't require too much luck and, obviously, you have plenty of command to get your lads to fight to the death as long as you smash those artillery units.

One note, sometimes the AI will turn part of their line back and try to rescue the artillery when your cavalry hits it. Since they have no cavalry on their own that's hopelessly stupid, but they might do it anyway; just means fewer front line infantry companies for your infantry to hold and break and more clean-up when the rout starts.

Good luck! :2thumbsup:

:egypt:

Ferret
12-08-2007, 15:18
yep for me the order of next heirs after Peter has always been Dieter von kassel and then Dieter Bresch, but he'd be too old to take over by then.

here is some proof :clown: :

https://img469.imageshack.us/img469/1645/dieterre7.th.jpg (https://img469.imageshack.us/my.php?image=dieterre7.jpg)

FactionHeir
12-08-2007, 15:27
The attributes look copied in. See the white dot next to the 10th fist?

Ramses II CP
12-08-2007, 15:33
rotfl 'the Unstoppable?' :laugh4: :no:

:egypt:

Ferret
12-08-2007, 15:41
nope nothing was copied, just a bit of an overused console. 'the Unstoppable' comes from GoodSiegeAttacker 5.

edit: is Fritz worried now :evil:

OverKnight
12-08-2007, 15:42
@Ramses, good points, unfortunately additional CBs are unavailable. Under normal conditions, I get a posse of 6 Pavis XBs together, put them out front in loose formation and blast them to hell, I only have three however.

I'll have to pay attention to which unit is the Captain's. Good point there, along with the art. Unfortunately the quality of their infantry leaves little room for error. Might be a battle I'd have to fight in slow motion. :laugh4:

Given the present situation (anyone else notice we're running a deficit of florins?) I can't risk the army on one throw of the dice because even when we resume normal play reinforcement will be spotty. I guess I'll have to sacrifice my pride and continue hit and run raids and defensive holding actions.

gibsonsg91921
12-08-2007, 16:29
now that the swabian civil war is over, lets take a looky at this article and finish it up, eh?

https://forums.totalwar.org/wiki/index.php/Swabian_Civil_War?totalwarbeta_wiki__session=45ff1e1637024e989c718f3e07933d43

Ramses II CP
12-08-2007, 16:30
Ahh, you can't even get militia crossbows with Antioch fallen, can you? Hrm, since they won't come to you their artillery will be well guarded, and I would decline battle as well. Antioch was exterminated, so it's not a bad idea to let it's population grow under the AI's advantge anyway.

Now that you have a second general you might think about sending him around through the English lands to sneak in behind the Byzantines. With some reliable cavalry in their rear you could probably break up their formation and dismantle them before their artillery pinned too many losses on you.

:egypt:

TinCow
12-08-2007, 16:56
I am VERY pleased that I have found ways of scaring you guys. I was mightily disheartened when you started cracking my alpha- and beta-versions of the 'tough' armies.

Regarding silver chevrons, there's a big difference between them and golds. Silvers are hard as nails, but they WILL rout under the right circumstances. Especially when led by a Captain. If you want to beat them without losing your army in the process, you need to figure out a way to crack their morale suddenly. Congratulations, you now have to use tactics in M2TW!

[edit] Regarding the florin deficit, that was something that I have been aiming for throughout the cataclysm. Things aren't just going to go back to normal in 1340... the Reich will still be in major trouble. Unless something drastic is done quickly, our economy will be in a massive hole. That said, the large number of besieged settlements is a major contributor to this negative cash flow. Lift them and we may pop back up into net profit.

StoneCold
12-08-2007, 17:35
Heh, there is still the black plague, don't forget about that. Should be hitting you guys soon after you guys come out of the cataclysm. :D Enjoy...

gibsonsg91921
12-08-2007, 18:09
Yeah, the Black Death and the Timurids should come just in time for Peter to assume the throne. Aww...

Privateerkev
12-08-2007, 18:10
So with Ignoramus leaving Swabia, we got 3 players there now (excluding Zim who is Outremer), right?

Swabia has 5 like Bavaria and Franconia. Austria has 6.

Swabian players are FH, Tristan, Deguerra, WL, and Zim.

:book:

Zim
12-08-2007, 18:20
Swabia has 5 like Bavaria and Franconia. Austria has 6.

Swabian players are FH, Tristan, Deguerra, WL, and Zim.

:book:

Since he was specifically excluding me (how dare he! :clown: ), I guess it would be 4 Swabian players, actually in Swabia.

On a side not if Tristan manages imperial politics as well as he plays the hotseat games I'm in, he'll be running the Reich in no time. :sweatdrop:

Privateerkev
12-08-2007, 18:23
Since he was specifically excluding me (how dare he! :clown: ), I guess it would be 4 Swabian players, actually in Swabia.

On a side not if Tristan manages imperial politics as well as he plays the hotseat games I'm in, he'll be running the Reich in no time. :sweatdrop:

He was excluding Tristan too.

And people in Outremer are still "in" their respective House. Something I learned the "hard" way. :yes:

You have access to an alternative political power structure but your not completely out of the original one. It's a balancing act but it can be fun. :2thumbsup:

Zim
12-08-2007, 18:25
He was excluding Tristan too.

And people in Outremer are still "in" their respective House. Something I learned the "hard" way. :yes:

You have access to an alternative political power structure but your not completely out of the original one. It's a balancing act but it can be fun. :2thumbsup:

Correction, I believe he was only purposefully excluding me, while accidently forgetting Tristan. Obviously, he has some irrational prejudice against people from Salzgitter. I assume it has something to do with the little wheat designs on our town shield :clown:

_Tristan_
12-08-2007, 21:17
On a side not if Tristan manages imperial politics as well as he plays the hotseat games I'm in, he'll be running the Reich in no time. :sweatdrop:

Thanks, Zim...

A worthy foe brings out the best in you... And that goes for the other hotseat players (you know who you are :2thumbsup: )...

I only wish I had enough time to live up to the expectations you have in me...

deguerra
12-08-2007, 23:35
Correction, I believe he was only purposefully excluding me, while accidently forgetting Tristan. Obviously, he has some irrational prejudice against people from Salzgitter. I assume it has something to do with the little wheat designs on our town shield :clown:

correction, I believe you meant the little wheat designs on your town shields which has been so lovingly added to my new coat of arms which is the coolest ever seen by man.

:clown: arrognat? me?

Warluster
12-08-2007, 23:59
On the Guild Wiki I have updated the entries for BoS and Hugo Merode.

Edit: Also econ, did you receive the PM I sent you yesterday about the Swabia thread?

flyd
12-09-2007, 00:22
Could somebody please tell me what, just what, happened to my dear Empire!? Was it the Austrians? It was those Austrians, wasn't it?

Actually, I did read through a lot of the stuff, and have an idea of what happened. It was an awesome story, but I think I'm more impressed by the fact that actual territory was lost. Lots of it. Never thought I'd see that.

Anyway, I'd like to be written in as a Franconian elector for the next Diet session, and perhaps pick up a recruitable general afterwards.

GeneralHankerchief
12-09-2007, 00:24
Glad to have you back, FLYdude. :yes:

FactionHeir
12-09-2007, 00:53
Welcome back FlYdude and yes, I omitted Tristan accidentally. I thought he was on the French side :wink:

TinCow
12-09-2007, 01:18
Welcome back FLYdude. If you want a recruitable general for 1340, let me know and I will make sure one is hired for you.

econ21
12-09-2007, 01:22
Welcome back, FLYdude - I noticed you reading some threads and wondered if your interest was being rekindled. :2thumbsup:


Edit: Also econ, did you receive the PM I sent you yesterday about the Swabia thread?

Thanks for reminding me. I have made the changes.

gibsonsg91921
12-09-2007, 01:23
hey FLYdude!!!

you'll be glad to see that the von hamburgs are all but eliminated, carried on only by your daughters! isn't that great?

Privateerkev
12-09-2007, 01:26
Could somebody please tell me what, just what, happened to my dear Empire!? Was it the Austrians? It was those Austrians, wasn't it?

Actually, I did read through a lot of the stuff, and have an idea of what happened. It was an awesome story, but I think I'm more impressed by the fact that actual territory was lost. Lots of it. Never thought I'd see that.

Anyway, I'd like to be written in as a Franconian elector for the next Diet session, and perhaps pick up a recruitable general afterwards.

FD! Welcome back! :jumping:

It would be a loooong wait but you could always take Jan's son when he comes of age. There's a certain continuity there. :yes:

And Gibson, the Kastiliens aren't faring too well for the long term either. ;)

At least the von Hamburg name is going to survive (through Jan's son Andreas) where the Kastilien one won't unless Fritz or Peter get married quick.

flyd
12-09-2007, 02:00
Oh, I'm not interested in a long wait, I'll probably have to scale back my involvement (hopefully not to zero this time) in roughly two months' time. TC, feel free to recruit that general whenever you can.

Gibson, yes, I am glad to see that the von Kastiliens are completely to blame for Franconia's recent decrease in power. I'm sure Dieter Bresch will rescue the Duchy... if he lives.

Oh, and on what is perhaps a completely irrelevant note, we don't really need an in-game insane trait to descend into madness, do we? Just a curiosity.

AussieGiant
12-09-2007, 02:09
Welcome back FLYdude...

...naa just go completely mental, you don't really need a reason.

Ituralde went banana's to start the crisis so that's a good place to start.

Zim
12-09-2007, 03:54
correction, I believe you meant the little wheat designs on your town shields which has been so lovingly added to my new coat of arms which is the coolest ever seen by man.

:clown: arrognat? me?

But of course, it is the coolness of the wheat designs that make him jealous. All hail the wheat! :clown:

Tristan,
Not only are you doing well in a very difficult situation in the Teutonic game, but Of the four factions intent on destroying eachother in the Crusader game, you're the only one to make any decent territorial gains. I tip my hat to you. :bow:

My tactic in the Crusader game has had the advantage of being crazy enough to be completely unexpected. Were I to try it again I doubt it would prove so effective.

gibsonsg91921
12-09-2007, 06:35
decrease in power? aside from austria, we were the most unscathed of the cataclysm. peter wields more authority than ever, and we're driving back our enemies!

AussieGiant
12-09-2007, 09:17
Hi there everyone.

Just to let you know I'll be heading back home early from Japan.

I'll be updating the active duty list Monday late afternoon GMT +1

OverKnight, if anything happens in the mean time you know the rules of engagement for Arnold :2thumbsup:

Hope everyone had/has/or is having a good weekend.

OverKnight
12-09-2007, 09:39
OverKnight, if anything happens in the mean time you know the rules of engagement for Arnold :2thumbsup:

Give puppies to the captives and let them go?

No wait. . .

Crush? Check.

Kill? Check.

Destroy? Check.

I think I can handle that. :2thumbsup:

AussieGiant
12-09-2007, 09:48
Give puppies to the captives and let them go?

No wait. . .

Crush? Check.

Kill? Check.

Destroy? Check.

I think I can handle that. :2thumbsup:

The puppies can be given out...I have no problem with that.

You just have to choose between hand them out before or after the crush, kill, destroy part. :beam:

Privateerkev
12-09-2007, 11:50
The puppies can be given out...I have no problem with that.

You just have to choose between hand them out before or after the crush, kill, destroy part. :beam:

Will Arnold kill the puppies too? Or will they spared so they can live a lifetime of service to their dead masters?

:clown:

Ferret
12-09-2007, 13:56
Gibson, yes, I am glad to see that the von Kastiliens are completely to blame for Franconia's recent decrease in power. I'm sure Dieter Bresch will rescue the Duchy... if he lives.

I'll try my best :2thumbsup:

Soon there will only be von Hamburgs left anyway as when/if Dieter becomes Duke he is going to make it law that everyone in the House has to change their name to von Hamburg...or else :clown:

Ramses II CP
12-09-2007, 15:22
Hah! I think Fritz would be only too happy to change his name to von Hamburg and become Count of Hamburg. Then he could steal Jan's son and raise him as his own. :smash:

:egypt:

TinCow
12-09-2007, 16:54
There are still a few more hours left on the time limit, but I have received most of the orders, so I will post the initial battle list. Also, I have not yet received orders for the following people:

Athalwolf von Salza (Warluster)
Ehrhart Ruppel (FactionHeir) - Orders Received
Maximillian von Hapsburg (Ignoramus)
Tancred von Tyrolia (Dutch_guy) - Will be using default orders (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showpost.php?p=1771690&postcount=66).
Fredericus Erlach (Stuperman) - Orders Received

Battles Pending:

Karl Zirn (Northnovas) and Elberhard (econ21):
Elberhard has marched east to relieve the siege of Zagreb. Karl Zirn stands ready to march out and attack the besieging Poles.

The two of you can decide which army will initiate the battle and which player will fight it.

Edmund Becker (Cecil XIX) and Lorenz Zirn (Roadkill):

Lorenz Zirn has marched north to aid Prague and Edmund Becker stands ready to sally forth and break the siege of his city.

As I understand it, Roadkill cannot fight battles. If this is true, the attack must be initiated through a sally by Edmund Becker and it must be fought by Cecil XIX.


Dieter von Kassel (Mini Econ):

You have advanced on Palermo and stand ready to batter your way in with your Bombards. It would be wise to conserve the ammunition of those artillery pieces, as you have no other way to breach the citadel's defenses. If you run out of ammunition before breaching the third wall, you will be defeated.

Fritz von Kastilien (Ramses II CP):

You recruited 2 regiments each of Mercenary Spearmen and Mercenary Pavise Crossbowmen. You then took these units, along with your Bombard, Ribault, Longbowmen, another Mercenary Pavise Crossbowmen, two regiments of Militia Crossbowmen, two regiments of Forlorn Hope, and a regiment of Spear Militia and marched south towards the Danish armies. Along the way, you met up with reinforcements donated by Peter von Kastilien. They number three regiments of Militia Crossbowmen, one regiment of Mercenary Spearmen, one regiment of Merchant Cavalry Militia, and one regiment of Mounted Sergeants.

You stand ready to attack the Danes across the bridge. You may not use a night attack.

Note: The orders received from both you and gibsonsg91921 indicated that Peter would give you his Mailed Knights. However, Peter does not have any Mailed Knights. I assumed you were both mistaken and meant the Mounted Sergeants, since that was the only unit that seemed to fit the bill. However, these are significantly weaker than Mailed Knights, so I have done some extra things to give you a bit more flexibility. First, I brought Fritz's Merchant Cavalry Militia with him and merged it with Peter's Merchant Cavalry Militia, so that the unit is at full strength. (Extra men went back to Hamburg) Second, I brought the Albanian cavalry south and placed it adjacent to Fritz. If you want to substitute it for one of your other units, you may do so before the battle. Just make sure that you do not bring more than 20 units with you to the battle.

Peter von Kastilien (gibsonsg91921):

You have ridden close to the bridge where your brother Fritz is about the attack the Danes. You may join him in the attack, attack when he is finished (if the Danes are still alive), or not attack at all. The choice is yours.

http://www.totalwar.org/patrons/pbm/kotr1338-3.zip

RoadKill
12-09-2007, 17:13
I have regained access to MTW2 Tincow, but I'm confused if we both have acsess then who will be fighting the battle me or Edmund?

TinCow
12-09-2007, 17:35
That's up to you two to decide.

Ramses II CP
12-09-2007, 18:27
I'm probably going to switch out the Merchant cavalry militia. I'd intended to use the Albanians anyway; I really dislike using units like the Merch cav that have such low morale. I worry that they'll rout from something silly and cause a chain.

Mounted Sarges should be fine, unless things go horribly wrong the cavalry is only going to be used to chase routers and prevent a rally. If things go wrong, Mounted Knights wouldn't turn the tide. :laugh4:

Football is about to start so I don't think I can play now, but if the games turn south I might try if no one else has snagged the save. Otherwise I should be able to do it tonight.

:egypt:

Cecil XIX
12-09-2007, 19:21
Since it's my city, I would like to fight the battle. Hopefully I'll be able to do it in a few hours, after I get some work done.

Ramses II CP
12-09-2007, 22:17
Alright, the Raiders are down big, game over, taking the save.

:egypt:

Ramses II CP
12-09-2007, 23:01
Victory for the Reich. Unanticipated problem though, when I started the battle the Madgeburg garrison had the 'cannot retreat' icon on their face. I won, but if I'd known I almost certainly wouldn't have wanted to fight under those circumstances as it put two other player's avatars at risk. Losses were substantial, and those bloody 3 gold dismounted Huscarls wouldn't retreat even when they broke, they fought to the death. Appropriate I suppose. They mauled my spearmen and Forlorn Hope, causing more losses than all the other units combined I believe.

I'll write a battle story for it later, it was an intense fight. When I realized I couldn't bleed them, retreat and let Peter clean up, as we'd halfway planned, I got a bit heavier on the pause button. :laugh4:

http://www.totalwar.org/patrons/pbm/kotr1338-4.zip

:egypt: (Back to the end of the GB-Oak game, see if they put in Russel now that's it's so far out of reach)

Ferret
12-09-2007, 23:06
I'm free!!!! :)

TinCow
12-09-2007, 23:47
I'm glad you won. I was getting a bit worried I had overdone it on Magdeburg. There have already been far more deaths during the cataclysm than I wanted or expected. No need for any more.

Zim
12-09-2007, 23:51
Does that mean the Byzantine armies in Outremer can be toned down? Not to improve my character's survival rate, of course, but for the good of the game. :saint:


I'm glad you won. I was getting a bit worried I had overdone it on Magdeburg. There have already been far more deaths during the cataclysm than I wanted or expected. No need for any more.

Privateerkev
12-09-2007, 23:52
There have already been far more deaths during the cataclysm than I wanted or expected.

To be fair, except for Zim, the rest of us put our avatars in very dangerous situations so a high death count shouldn't be too surprising. :beam:

I was actually hoping there would be some avatar death to shake things up. I didn't think that Jan would be part of that pile of bodies but hey, it was fun! :2thumbsup:

gibsonsg91921
12-10-2007, 00:39
HAHA that means the pack attack are the winners!

edit: and for those of you who just can't get enough role-playing but don't have the time to fully join other PBMs, hit up the Britannia Campaign Salon Thread (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?t=96376) and debate politics in an open forum regarding the Britannia Hotseat

Ramses II CP
12-10-2007, 05:10
The battle report for Madgeburg is posted, if anyone is curious. Plenty of screenshots, and forgive the editing errors that must be present. I wanted to get it all down while the fight was still fresh in my head.

You'll see how bloody near a thing it really was. Even with the stupid AI hamstringing them those Huscarls were within seconds of breaking my spearmen. They annihilated the Forlorn Hope. If they'd broken through I would've scattered the crossbowmen and tried to charge them to death with Fritz and the Albanians, but that would've let the swordstaves cross the river unopposed. At that point it's still probably a win, but I'm forced to withdraw units and bring Dieter's army onto the field, and casualties might have easily doubled in the chaos.

If just one or two of those critical bombard shots had missed it would have been ugly for Fritz's men. And deploying the ribault at the head of the bridge was a mistake for the second wave; because those men weren't going to run they trapped the ribaults behind their line and prevented me from getting any more shots into them. I felt stupid after I did it, the ribault doesn't usually kill much, it's just a morale tool and I used it poorly against the highest morale units on the field.

Fun battle! I dread facing those full triple gold stacks. :yes:

:egypt:

OverKnight
12-10-2007, 05:30
Excellent write up, Ramses, and well fought. :2thumbsup: You've certainly picked up where Tamur left off with Fritz.

Edit: I feel your pain about uber-stacks.

Zim
12-10-2007, 10:22
I wouldn't mind the uberness of the stacks so much, if there weren't four or so of them within a march of Antioch. :sweatdrop:

OverKnight
12-10-2007, 10:51
Chin up Zim, with patience, tactics and some luck, we'll put paid to them. If not, well, promotions come quickly in Outremer, if you survive. :laugh4:

Cecil XIX
12-10-2007, 16:15
All right, I'm taking the save.

Cecil XIX
12-10-2007, 18:06
Battle fought and uploaded. I'm not going to say how it went though, as I think it will make an great battle report which I hope to post within ten hours.

FactionHeir
12-10-2007, 19:45
Taking save

AussieGiant
12-10-2007, 20:09
Lots of Austrian battles I see...excellent.

I for one am for keeping those uber stacks around after the cataclysm.

Maybe not Triple Gold, but plenty of silver, armour and weapon upgrades at least.

Can you actually imagine the game if we were just a tinsy winsy bit worried about the AI?

Can you? :yes:

Privateerkev
12-10-2007, 20:29
It would certainly help create a situation where we would be more likely to be cooperative.

That atmosphere was lacking before the cataclysm and even in the beginning of the cataclysm.

But if we OOC felt a little fear, it would help induce a "coming together" across the Reich and we'd be more likely to work together.

Or, I could be wrong and we'll keep finding reasons to have PvP battles.

:clown:

AussieGiant
12-10-2007, 20:39
There's nothing like a common foe to unite us...

...hell we really do need to give the AI some armies that can challenge us or it will be a steam roll back to where we were before...the plague will hit...but that will on delay the inevitable in my view.

Didn't that OOC CA pass though?

Privateerkev
12-10-2007, 20:41
Didn't that OOC CA pass though?

They all passed except the one mandating half-stacks.

AussieGiant
12-10-2007, 20:45
ha yes...I remember now.

Ok so that's good news.

My only thought was that the levy system was kind of linked to the half stack concept that Econ came up with...now we have a whole bunch of levies to try and keep sorted out.

Privateerkev
12-10-2007, 20:57
I guess now, everyone gets a levy, but house armies, AoO's, Kaiser army, Prince army, and whatever the Chancellor creates, could be full stack.

AussieGiant
12-10-2007, 20:59
That's about the extent of it PK.

Anyway...I'm totally shattered so I'm off to be now.

Cheers everyone.

econ21
12-10-2007, 20:59
My only thought was that the levy system was kind of linked to the half stack concept that Econ came up with...now we have a whole bunch of levies to try and keep sorted out.

Yes, I think I made a mistake de-linking them in the voting. I aimed to restrict our power and ended up giving us extra units. This PBM is quite an education in politics - that's just a demonstration of the law of unintended consequences! :laugh4:

Zim
12-10-2007, 22:02
Chin up Zim, with patience, tactics and some luck, we'll put paid to them. If not, well, promotions come quickly in Outremer, if you survive. :laugh4:

If you're referring to the possibility of a King Andreas, I suspect any disaster big enough to result in Matthias' death would ensure mine would be a particularly short, unpleasant reign. :clown:

Actually, although I'm in no hurry to beat General Hankerchief's record for shortlived avatars (was it GH, or am I mixing him up with someone else?), I'm pretty eager to take the fight to those Byzantines. :charge:

Privateerkev
12-10-2007, 22:07
Well, you can become King regardless of whether Matthias lives or dies. King is basically an appointment at the whim of the Kaiser. True there needs to be a few Dukes involved in a firing decision but the Kaiser could just appoint a different King at the next Diet session.

As for short lived avatars, I think RK had a particularly short stint as Wilhelm if I recall correctly.

Zim
12-10-2007, 22:21
Fire Matthias the Merciless, scourge of the Byzantines? Inconceivable!

Maybe I got the name wrong, I just remember someone joking on the last OOC thread that their avatars have a bad habit of dying young. :clown:

Privateerkev
12-10-2007, 22:26
No, you were right the first time about GH. He had a very short stint as Jens Hummel. But RK's might have been even shorter.

gibsonsg91921
12-10-2007, 22:55
RK had a short stint as Wilhelm as well as Helmut von Hamburg.

Privateerkev
12-10-2007, 22:58
Well, with Helmut, RK took him and then gave him up. When Helmut died, he was a "spare avatar".

gibsonsg91921
12-10-2007, 22:58
oo gotcha.

how many battles remain before the Grand Diet Session of 1340?

FactionHeir
12-10-2007, 23:21
Battle fought and won...absolutely barely.
I had my general without a bodyguard and 20 dismounted feudal knights left at the end...

The end was a lot of micromanaging trying to get my puny force to attack the few heavy depleted missiel units that remained.
Didn't get to take too many screenshots due to being at the edge of my seat all the time.

Uploaded:
http://www.totalwar.org/patrons/pbm/kotr1338-6.zip

Screens:

https://img232.imageshack.us/img232/3158/image001ap0.jpg
https://img219.imageshack.us/img219/9223/image004dm4.jpg
https://img219.imageshack.us/img219/3897/image005so0.jpg

econ21
12-10-2007, 23:39
Taking the save.

Northnovas
12-10-2007, 23:44
Good I have been patiently waiting. Were breaking out tonight.
That was quite a battle there from the stats FH!

FactionHeir
12-10-2007, 23:48
No kidding. It was probably the second most difficult battle I have ever fought.
And I thought I had lost for several minutes when I had 4 depleted footknights left fighting it out with multiple aventuriers and scotsguards in melee with everyone exhausted and me having no GBs left. With a bit of luck I managed a few lucky charges into their rear without getting Ruppel killed and routed them after 20 long minutes of skirmish at that particular point.

The reinforcement gold stack was really the worst. First they charge their lancers into my frontline (which was still in disarray after just routing the first stack), followed by regiment after regiment of dismounted chivs that wouldn't rout at all and went through my spears like a hot knife through butter.
Had to kill their captain, completely surround them when they got exhausted and then hope for a lucky charge with my GB into their rear.

What made all the difference at the start was the reinforcements being delayed until I mopped up 2 regiments of enemy archers.

If you want, I can upload a pre-battle save (where I just created my army) and fight it yourself. Its a killer.

Northnovas
12-11-2007, 00:19
That does sound like a killer. I think it would be a good go to try the battle. I don't think I have fought anything with that kind of experience. There may also be a few other curious souls who would like to give it a try.

FactionHeir
12-11-2007, 00:30
http://www.totalwar.org/patrons/pbm/kotrBern.zip

Try at your own risk :grin2:

Zim
12-11-2007, 03:12
oo gotcha.

how many battles remain before the Grand Diet Session of 1340?

I think Econ's might be the last, although there could be a few defensive battles during the A.I.'s turn. :yes:

I'm looking forward to my first Diet. :2thumbsup:

AussieGiant
12-11-2007, 07:40
Cecil,

Excellent battle report!! Very very very good stuff there.

OverKnight
12-11-2007, 07:55
I think I've noticed a trend. The Chivalrous Avatars are hen pecked by their wives, while the Dread Avatars are crazy bachelors, or have wives we never hear from. I assume Lothar's Princess is locked in a tower somewhere. :laugh4:

Hmmm, something to be said for the moderating influence of the fairer sex.

Privateerkev
12-11-2007, 09:38
I think I've noticed a trend. The Chivalrous Avatars are hen pecked by their wives, while the Dread Avatars are crazy bachelors, or have wives we never hear from. I assume Lothar's Princess is locked in a tower somewhere. :laugh4:

Hmmm, something to be said for the moderating influence of the fairer sex.

Pssht...

Jan was soooo not hen-pecked. :laugh4:

Elsebeth did seem to have Matthias by the short ones though. :clown:

econ21
12-11-2007, 10:12
I think Econ's might be the last,

Mini-Econ has one still to fight.

One strange thing I noticed with my battle was that the timer was off. Is there a way to switch the timer on and off during a campaign? Previously, it's always been on.

Zim
12-11-2007, 10:15
Mini-Econ has one still to fight.

One strange thing I noticed with my battle was that the timer was off. Is there a way to switch the timer on and off during a campaign? Previously, it's always been on.

I'm sorry, that may be my fault. I fought Jan's battle with the timer off and I can't remember if I turned it back on. You just go to the in-game menu and you can switch it in "game options".

FactionHeir
12-11-2007, 11:53
Yeah, you can change it. I also found it strange that it was off in my battle because I remembered that the KOTR battles always had the 1hr limit.
To be fair though, it was decisive in terms of winning that battle. I think I fought for almost 3 hours (had to rest my troops on the hill, ya know :grin:)

AussieGiant
12-11-2007, 12:07
It should be made clear that the Time should not be turned off under any circumstances!

That's part of the set up gentlemen it's not negotiable.

econ21
12-11-2007, 12:07
I'd like people to adhere to the one hour limit - it may stop some gamey tactics and it adds a degree of urgency to the proceedings. If the battle is inconclusive, well battles often were - and there's always next time.

AussieGiant
12-11-2007, 12:08
Nothing against FH but he was able to use that to his advantage in a very close battle which he himself admits would have alter the outcome in all likelyhood.

Gamey tactics have already been used.

TinCow
12-11-2007, 12:56
For the record, I specifically told Zim he could turn the timer off for that one battle. He did not break the rules by doing so, he only forgot to turn it back on afterwards. I judged that it was an acceptable thing given that it was a city assault against a massively superior enemy army that had to be coordinated with an allied army. I did not want it to fail simply because of a timer and I believe I had the authority to authorize that during the Cataclysm. Given that Zim's avatar ended up dying in the process, I don't think he benefited too heavily.

econ21
12-11-2007, 13:23
That's fine, TinCow - no worries. I'll get Mini-Econ to turn the timer back on this evening.

FactionHeir
12-11-2007, 13:26
Nothing against FH but he was able to use that to his advantage in a very close battle which he himself admits would have alter the outcome in all likelyhood.

Gamey tactics have already been used.

I noticed after a while in the battle that it was off during one of the quiet moments (i.e. first stack only had two heavily depleted missiles at the bottom and second stack was camping).
I didn't want to replay the battle though as that would have been a more unfair advantage than going over the time limit.
Still, my units weren't completely idle during that time: my cavalry was running through the enemy missiles and then the missiles of the second approaching stack until the lancers caught up.

AussieGiant
12-11-2007, 14:20
FH,

I completely understand what you've explained. The last thing after all that hard work would be to even think about repeating.

TC,

Sorry about that. I didn't know about your instructions. If it's that detailed then I certainly have no issue with it...I suppose it's just a little unfortunate it was left off for a while.

I'm just loathed to give the us even the slightest edge. I'm totally concerned that we are simply going to pound the AI back to the stone age in record time.

Please accept my apologies if I came across too hard to either of you.

TinCow
12-11-2007, 14:25
No need to apologize. I completely understand why people would be cautious about this and there was no way for anyone to know that I told Zim that he could do that.

AussieGiant
12-11-2007, 14:27
No need to apologize. I completely understand why people would be cautious about this and there was no way for anyone to know that I told Zim that he could do that.

Great,

thanks for the quick feedback TC.

OverKnight
12-11-2007, 14:29
Maybe I'm a petty person, but I wouldn't mind smacking the hell out of the AI for a few turns after the cataclysm. Payback time! :laugh4:

How quickly we recover is debatable as well. We are running a deficit, we've lost a lot of buildings and those death stacks still exist.

AussieGiant
12-11-2007, 14:33
Maybe I'm a petty person, but I wouldn't mind smacking the hell out of the AI for a few turns after the cataclysm. Payback time! :laugh4:

How quickly we recover is debatable as well. We are running a deficit, we've lost a lot of buildings and those death stacks still exist.

I agree OK,

I'm certainly looking forward to handing some of these Venetian's a little love!!

But I am also very happy to see PK confirm that Econ can throw in a few semi death stacks in for the AI the future...

There is going to be a hell of a purge in units once normal service resumes. That will make them even more dangerous if the AI has them wander near us.

FactionHeir
12-11-2007, 14:35
Time to go an a sacking spree? I mean we are despicable already anyway :laugh4:

Nah, occupying/exterminating is probably more fun, but I think we ought to lift the CA requiring an edict to take/retake a settlement and to need a CA to incorporate a region into the empire. We probably want to eliminate the main enemy factions that have attacked us during the cataclysm and then focus our attention on the aztecs (well, we probably shouldn't be sending too many people there actually, as the aztecs are quite a pushover)

The best about this massive expansion is that we won't have too many forces due to losing several in battle and the timurids and plague just about to arrive.

gibsonsg91921
12-11-2007, 15:57
I want to kill/spay everything that isn't black or gold. Living in Chicagoland, I know how it is with the rivals.

econ21
12-11-2007, 16:02
I thought I made a post about my battle last night with the new save, but there seems to have been an error. Sorry.

Here's the save:

http://www.totalwar.org/patrons/pbm/kotr1338-7.zip

I will be picking it up again in a few hours when Mini-Econ comes to fight his battle.

Ramses II CP
12-11-2007, 16:02
I found myself wishing the timer was on at Madgeburg when the second stack looked passive AI'd (A 'tie' without Dieter or Tancred on the field wouldn't have killed them, I think), but it was too late to alter the settings by then and I didn't want to change anything global anyway. It's a bad idea in general to play with the timer off as any map with a structure on it has the potential to break your battle via trapped routers or pinned, off map, reinforcements.

As far as the Aztecs, I have some suggestions that could make them interesting ('Accidents' at sea destroying all our gunpowder, or a disease wiping out our horses, etc.) but with their leadership problems there's really not much we can do. Their generals are always so horribly incompetent because there's nothing for them to fight and that alone can be decisive. :shrug:

:egypt:

OverKnight
12-11-2007, 16:43
Ye gods econ21, that was a gold stack and you cut through them like butter. I guess sniping the captain helps?

TinCow
12-11-2007, 17:09
That's an excellent battle report, Cecil. It's an amazing turn of events in a battle that you seemed to be winning. I'm looking forward to part two.

econ21
12-11-2007, 17:18
Ye gods econ21, that was a gold stack and you cut through them like butter. I guess sniping the captain helps?

Twas a lucky shot, but a conscious strategy to go for their general to try to offset their sky high morale.

I might have considered it a gamey tactic, but I read in Medieval Warfare Sourcebook that locating and destroying the enemy general was the main battle tactic of Ottoman armies. Makes sense to me - sort of like how modern warfare always begins by bombing the enemy's command and control.

There was an intervening period when warfare was more chivalrous - I recall the story of British gunners at Waterloo spotting Napoleon parading before his army and asking Wellington permission to shoot. Wellington was appalled at the idea: "Leaders of armies have better things to do than fire at each other!"

Ramses II CP
12-11-2007, 17:39
That was a brilliant victory Econ; I can't make out how your lines hit from the screenshots but you must've been on every side of the gold buggers to make them crack like that, even down a general. As far as aiming for their captain, it's just the smart thing to do, especially when the AI does nothing to guard him. I'm going to have to try this battle and FH's later, they both look like good fun.

Very interesting report Cecil! Becker's lack of aggression looked very nearly fatal there.

:egypt:

Stuperman
12-11-2007, 18:13
Thise Battle reports are both very good, congrats econ and cecil

Privateerkev
12-11-2007, 18:53
But I am also very happy to see PK confirm that Econ can throw in a few semi death stacks in for the AI the future...

*kevin wakes up*

What did I confirm?

*sleepy*

:coffeenews:

FactionHeir
12-11-2007, 18:59
Econ: Are you running some other mod too while playing KOTR? The flags in the background don't look vanilla to me.

I think the worst gold stacks are those that have units with high base morale (like western DCK and scots guard, which have 11 morale and are highly trained)

Ramses II CP
12-11-2007, 19:06
If anyone else wants to get their opposition to the unification bit on record via Fritz's proclamation, now's the time. I intend it to be widely published in multiple languages by the time of the Diet session. It can be seen here:

https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?p=1771860#post1771860

I'm sure Tancred would sign it, but without specific permission I don't want to put any names down. Also, FYI, it isn't meant to have any larger meaning and it's not some kind of political trap, it just seemed like an okay IC justification for the end of the Cataclysm and the 'stepping down' of our enemies.

:egypt:

FactionHeir
12-11-2007, 19:09
I'll sign it if you hang Luther :grin2:

Privateerkev
12-11-2007, 19:12
If anyone else wants to get their opposition to the unification bit on record via Fritz's proclamation, now's the time. I intend it to be widely published in multiple languages by the time of the Diet session. It can be seen here:

https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?p=1771860#post1771860

I'm sure Tancred would sign it, but without specific permission I don't want to put any names down. Also, FYI, it isn't meant to have any larger meaning and it's not some kind of political trap, it just seemed like an okay IC justification for the end of the Cataclysm and the 'stepping down' of our enemies.

:egypt:

Reading the Austrian House thread, it seems that it is gonna become Kaiser toilet paper...

:laugh4:

Ah, an interesting Diet is ahead of us indeed... :2thumbsup:

TinCow
12-11-2007, 19:15
If anyone else wants to get their opposition to the unification bit on record via Fritz's proclamation, now's the time. I intend it to be widely published in multiple languages by the time of the Diet session. It can be seen here:

https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?p=1771860#post1771860

I'm sure Tancred would sign it, but without specific permission I don't want to put any names down. Also, FYI, it isn't meant to have any larger meaning and it's not some kind of political trap, it just seemed like an okay IC justification for the end of the Cataclysm and the 'stepping down' of our enemies.

:egypt:

The list of signatories includes "Duke Dieter Bresch." When did he become Duke?

Privateerkev
12-11-2007, 19:17
The list of signatories includes "Duke Dieter Bresch." When did he become Duke?

Maybe it had to do with confusion over Peter being referred to as the "acting Kaiser".

Or, Peter and/or Elberhard died but we just don't know it yet. ^_^

econ21
12-11-2007, 20:06
Econ: Are you running some other mod too while playing KOTR? The flags in the background don't look vanilla to me.

I know - it's weird. I installed the Ultimate AI mod a while back and although that mod has its own sub-directory and cfg file, it seems to have changed the flags on the vanilla campaign map.

FactionHeir
12-11-2007, 20:16
I have gotten that mod too to try it out (only the AI files, not all files, as I have my own mods running), but the AI doesn't really seem to be behaving any smarter except to keep their general out of combat for about 2 minutes (after line engagement) before he goes off on a rush again.
Stacks are larger, but characters still randomly leave them to wander about on their own.
Alliances last. And I mean forever. Its Medieval 2: Total Peace.
I modded that bit after getting annoyed with it to my own old modded copy and its a bit better. Still, with the force_invade off as per his mod, the AI is usually much too passive and refuses to fight me. It rather fights other AI factions.
Diplomacy is back to 1.0 levels. One rejection and the AI is no longer interested in anything. So that is quite contrary to the claim that the AI makes more counter-offers now.

All in all, I tried it for 2 long campaigns and then got rid of it, because the improvements were absolutely minimal and not worth the hassle.

[edit]
Oh, and there has hardly been any multi-stack battles either, even when I actively tried to get some. Mongols and Timurids also don't act any smarter and wander about rather aimlessly.

Ramses II CP
12-11-2007, 20:20
I wasn't sure if Peter being Prinz automatically elevated Dieter to Duke or not, so I erred on the side of flattery. Fritz knows Dieter is going to be Duke, but I could just as well put it as 'Duke elect' or some other hedge. The point is the heads of three of the four houses signed it. :2thumbsup:

As far as hanging Luther, I'd have to find him first, and then I have a feeling he'd talk Fritz into trying to hang Ruppel. :laugh4:

:egypt:

AussieGiant
12-11-2007, 20:23
It's a relatively unique situation Ramses, but until Peter becomes Kaiser I think he can hold both position of Prinz and Duke.

Unless he specifically hands power over to Dieter at best he is the Steward of Franconia.

Privateerkev
12-11-2007, 20:31
Wasn't Henry both Prince and Duke of Swabia?

The title of "acting Kaiser" really just means the Prince is fulfilling his deputy duties. Peter can be Prince and Duke unless he resigns as Duke or Elberhard dies.

And I can't remember if the situation changed, but isn't Fritz the Steward of Franconia? And Dieter is heir to the Ducal throne?

https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showpost.php?p=1747984&postcount=316

So basically you have three ranking positions in Franconia that are supported by the rules,

Peter is a Duke that happens to also be Prince

Fritz is Steward and runs Franconia when Peter is away

Dieter is heir and will inherit the Duchy when Peter dies or becomes Kaiser

(this may have all changed since I'm not really keeping up with Franconian politics much these days.)

Why is it that Franconia always has the most confusing inner politics? :laugh4:

Zim
12-11-2007, 20:38
:oops: Sorry about the timer controversy guys. I had done a few test assaults with similiar forces, to see what the English would do with ballistas in their stack. Turns out, they futilely blast at the walls with them until their ammo runs out, causing no damage to the walls. Until then, they refuse to budge, even if I open some breaches for them. The ballistas take so long to run out of ammo that the English would effectively be out of the battle, joining it as the clock ran out. So I asked Tincow if I could turn it off for the battle, then apparently forgot to turn it back on.

:laugh4: The funny thing is that I always felt having the timer on (in general, not in KOTR) was gamey. Humans can much more easily stall and run out the clock to survive an impossible battle than can the AI, or whittle them down until their missile units run out of ammo, let time run out, then whittle them again.