KOTR Faction Poll:Round Two

[Zim]

Alright, I think we have a good idea from the other poll of which factions have the most interest. This poll includes all factions that made 5+ votes from the last one. It is again multiple choice. This poll will run longer than the last one and close in two days. If there is no decisive winner, a third poll will be held with only one vote per member to decide the winner.

Thanks to all who vote!

[GeneralHankerchief]

France, and here's what sets it apart from the others:

1. It's similar, but different enough. Okay, we know the territory. Some of us are pretty attached to certain areas of Western Europe, and some of us can gain attachments anew. In this western-centric world, France would provide an optimal mix of territories that we can all know and love. At the same time, there will be enemies that we did not touch in KotR, such as England, Spain, and Portugal. If we're feeling frisky we can even expand into Northern Africa.

2. Feudalism. TinCow's rules were modelled after a feudal basis, and France, along with England, were the two largest feudal systems in the medieval times. Sure, we can do the ERE and go completely different, but, TBH, the titles like Viscount and Grand Duke just don't fit into the Greek system as well.

3. Catholicism. Potential for tensions with the Pope? Check. Potential for Crusades? Check.

[deguerra]

To be honest, I would find France the most boring of those left over.

1. Yes it has a good feudal structure. That being said, we can never do true justice to historical feudal structures and still have a game that is fun for everyone. So I don't really see this as too much of a bonus. With the ERE the structure is more fluid. Sure, the titles would need some changing, but that shouldn't be a problem.

2. Yes, we know Europe well. But again, I would look forward to conquering new territories with new units requiring new strategies. I may be overexaggerating, but really the only difference between France and the HRE is that we would be bastardizing Tristans language instead of mine

3. Catholicism and the Pope. This IS the big advantage. It is a shame that the Orthodoxies got somewhat shafted in this aspect, but the Pope and the Crusades would definetely be lacking. I suppose we can roleplay and simulate similar situations (and the missions TinCow was hoping to add might help in that) but at the end of the day, we will be missing some features. Personally, I could live without them, but I recognise that they are a lot of fun.

So, instead of just criticising, what do I want?

Well as was said the ERE is tempting, because its a different setting with different units. But as was noted it also has the disadvantage of being Orthodox. So, if we wanted to stay Catholic for the juicy goodies, I would recommend one of the Spanish kingdoms (if we can live with starting out small) or Poland (if we cannot), simply because they are a little further away from the HRE and have more non-central european troop types.

Just my two cents :D

-deguerra

edit: The Templars would make for an intersting setting too, but given the tiny amount of land they own this would be quite challenging at the beginning.

[Zim]

I put in my vote for the ERE and Poland, for the same reasons as in the other poll.

The Eastern Romans are my first pick. I really enjoy their history, and backstabbing and civil wars seem completely appropriate for Eastern Roman politics. I think they even started to feudalize a bit in this period with the themes. Their unit roster is completely different from the European ones (well, as different as MTW2 rosters get). Lastly, I think they'd make a neat connection with the other KOTR type games. Not only were they a nemeis of sorts in the KOTR, but with the WOTS being a Roman game, and us playing the Holy Roman Empire in the KOTR, it seems we should play the last "Roman" faction.

I also rather like Poland as a choice. A tumultuous history, feudalism starting to creep in during the game's time frame, and another neat unit selection (marred only by the lack of a long ranged unit, but that just makes it more fo a challenge). Poland also has a history of the nobles becoming powerful and challenging the King, which seems to fit our rules. Plus, the Mongols are much closer to home.

For my part I find France far too close to the HRE and central Europe, but I may be slightly biased for having played mostly Swabians in KOTR. I'd also like to pick a faction that does not have a faction roster based around the same troops the HRE, France, and many of the other western European factions share. We'd be in line for a Mongol invasion. It might also be interesting to be a possible target of a crusade (can you say "Gm added Fourth Crusade event?" ).

I think the ERE would also be good because it was ripe with Civil wars, and the emperorship did not always move in a direct line from father to oldest son, working well with the way the game chooses heirs. Lastly, it is one of the factions best suited to have an important, elected position like Chancellor, although even with the ERE it's a bit unrealistic.

Edit: I stand corrected, they do have a Chancellor of sorts.
"Megas logothetes (Grand Logothete) – the head of the logothetes, personally responsible for the legal system and treasury, somewhat like a chancellor in western Europe."

As for titles, I think we could find appropriate ones.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Byzanti...nd_bureaucracy

Anyway, that's why I prefer the ERE the most (and Poland second). Truth is, all of the faction choices are great and will add to rather than detract from the game.

[Privateerkev]

Ok I guess I'll try one of these.

Why Templars...

A.) European style army in a very non-European environment. For those that want to keep knights/footsoldiers/crossbows but try them somewhere new, this is the faction.

B.) Intrigue. We would be a group of people coming to a far away land on a Holy Mission and would have to figure out how best to implement it. There will be many disagreements. Do you stay small? Expand? Treat those of different faiths with respect? Kill them all? Try to make money off of trade and use religion as an excuse?

C.) No "mother country" to cut off the piggy bank. In KotR, Jan lived in fear of Lothar pulling the HRE out of Outremer. While Jan did not believe Lothar and Matthias were enemies, Jan did believe that Lothar hated Outremer, religion, God, and people wearing crosses as a patch. If we play an actual Order, that fear disappears. We would rise and fall on our own merits.

D.) Front row seat when bad things come out of the far east. And if the AI is improved... woohoo!

E.) A very rich history to research. This might only interest me, but I would love to be in a group that reads a bunch of books on these guys, and then talks about it. I think we'd learn a lot from each other.

F.) God wills it! (just kidding)

[Ramses II CP]

I voted for Turkey, France, and the Milan Triangle. Thoughts are based almost completely on combat units and AI challenge:

First the positives for my favorite: Turkey starts weak, has weak infantry until the end game, and is directly in the path of every crusade and the Mongol/Timurid invasions. The AI will challenge us more as Turkey than as any other nation, I guarantee it.

The negatives: Turkey has excellent and easily available HA. We'll probably own the AI horribly despite it all because players are good with HA and the AI is ungodly bad with it.

Positives for France have been well coverd.

Negatives for France: The almost unavoidable wide open, full throttle blitz of early game will put us #1 in the world inside 10 turns, and we'll never look back. Dominant mid and late game unit roster. We'll have the (IMHO) best heavy cavalry, HA, crossbowmen, archers, and foot knights (DFK/DCK and the French dismounted) in the game. Our spearmen are good enough to do what spearmen are supposed to against any enemy. Challenge rating of zero in the field.

Positives for the Italian trio: Less and non-dominant HA. Conflict with the Pope almost inevitable. Surrounded with limited expansion space. In the path of a lot of potential failed crusades. Fleets not optional. Plenty of potential for natural schisms leading to civil war.

Negatives: Milan and Venice have limited uses for castles and stunning economic potential. Sicily has excellent knights available almost from the start of the game.

Overall I favor the Turks because I think they'll make for a rollercoaster ride of a game, especially if we run into some Civil wars during crusades/Mongols. The Italy trio might be a more challenging game. France suits our historical purposes best, but I'm afraid we'll dominate.

As far as the ERE goes, they're great on paper, but once we get in the game we'll immediately be able to build the only type of stack we'll ever want: Max allowed Vards, fill rest with high armor soak units + 2 companies of Varangians for AP.

[Ignoramus]

Again, I voted for France.

Like GH, I like the fact that the feudal system of France really suits TinCow's rules. The ERE, while certainly a cauldron of intrigue, is an autocratic system, making an representative body seem as out of place as a Calvinist Pope.

France has natural enemies on three sides: England to the north, Spain and Aragon to the south, and the Holy Roman Empire to the west. The ERE on the other hand, has only two fronts to worry about: the Turks to the west, and Hungarians and Venetians to the east.

The French start out relatively weak, but get stronger as the game progresses. the ERE, on the other hand, start out stronger but decline. Thus we would face greater challenges in the early game when we don't have 100,000 florins in the bank, and stacks of veterans to crunch our enemies.

Also, remember that civil wars will play a much bigger role in this game than they did in KotR, so I doubt that we'll expand too quickly. "The enemy of my enemy is my friend", so we could well see jealous houses deliberately allow another house's settlement to fall so that their own power is increased.

Another possible concern with the ERE is the value of Constantinople. It's massively more developed than any other settlement, so it means that it unfairly strengthens the house that controls it.

[Privateerkev]

Another possible concern with the ERE is the value of Constantinople. It's massively more developed than any other settlement, so it means that it unfairly strengthens the house that controls it.

I'm assuming Constantinople would belong to the Emperor...

And if it didn't, I have a feeling it would soon...

beware the ominous ellipses...

...

[OverKnight]

I voted for ERE. Constantinople did have a Senate, though as in the classic Empire, it was ineffectual. I envision the "Electors" as represenatives of the powerful land owning families that dominated the politics of the ERE, think the Comnenus and Ducas clans.

A development that could be intriguing would be tension between Anatolian and Thracian houses, ie Eastward expansion versus Westward expansion. We'll also have a "mission" from the get go, getting back what is ours.

I consider the lack of a Crusade system a plus, we won't be able to exploit it, and it's quite possible we'll be the target of a Jihad, something that never happened in KotR. We'll also be closer to Mongols et al.

[The Lemongate]

I went ERE as well.

The Senate still existed for a while in Konstantinopolis and it should be noted that the Emperor, though sole ruler in theory, ruled through the great landowning families, many of which tended to have members at the court as advisors, secretaries and councillors. A "Council of the Basileos" is very conceivable though things did not necessarily function in such a democratic way (the Greeks seem to have always preferred the knife in the back tactic to diplomacy... ya know they invented that concept so long ago, it just didn't seem as fun to them at that point).

[AussieGiant]

Voted for ERE, Templars and the Tri state Iberian Peninsula countries.

ERE; Due to the location and history of the Empire we are right in the middle of everything. With small changes to the titles there is a wealth of Role-playing options...their structure is a legacy of the old world...something to strive for or cast aside. (Very interesting).

Templars; Huge amount of intrigue and they are ducks out of water in the east. Again right in the thick of Crusades, Jihad, and the invasions...the religious under/overtones are rich in content and divisiveness.

Tri-state Tapas countries; Unit roster much different...all available aspects of the game present (Pope, Crusades, expansion will mean Jihads are a possibility.)

[TinCow]

Voted ERE, France, and Templars. ERE and France for the reasons I listed before. Templars because of Privateerkev's post. If it weren't for the fact that they start small, the Templars might be my favorites for the reasons PK gave.

[Ferret]

can I add a minus vote for the Templar order? As I said in the last thread I really don't think they would suit this PBM due to their tiny size. My vote went solely to Poland.

[AussieGiant]

Now that I've re-read PK's post in light of TC's comments...and unfortunately the total opposite of EF (sorry mate), I have to say the Templars would be my favourite right now.

Even though they start small the idea is becoming more and more attractive to me.

We could even keep the land requirements for the first rank and simply organise a back story in which there are a few main characters with land and titles while everyone else are recruitable general's and are aligned (loosely) as the cadre of acolytes to the respective main characters from the temple order in France (which I think is accurate at the time).

This would create limited resources for us to compete over internally from the very beginning.

Thoughts?

[_Tristan_]

While the Templar history and setting is rather interesting (It was one my three or four choices), is the unit roster sufficiently varied to allow for fun battles ?

[00jebus]

templar roster, from what I remember, is basically a mixture of the best early-high era units avaliable to europeans, just templar knights replacing generic ones


actually, if people want to play a crusader faction in the holy land, why not KoJ in BC?
more factions and events like saladin getting 2 armies when he takes the throne should make it more challanging

[Ferret]

The mod has already been decided and I think we should stick with that decision or we'll never get started. There was more to mod choice than type of faction anyway.

@AG: the Templar thread is here:http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showthread.php?t=86534

unfortunately most of the pics have been deleted but the roster is still there along with a small description. I can take some screenshots if you are really interested.

[_Tristan_]

Thanks EF for the link...

I must admit I'm not too fond of the unit roster... But that's just me...

[Zim]

I agree with you on the size thing and that's why I didn't vote for them(although that would fix itself eventually, I suppose). However, I don't think allowing negative votes would be appropriate.

can I add a minus vote for the Templar order? As I said in the last thread I really don't think they would suit this PBM due to their tiny size. My vote went solely to Poland.

[Zim]

About one more day to go until the poll closes.

[Privateerkev]

Are you planning on doing a third with us just voting for one faction? The top three are fairly close but there were a lot of cross-over votes. If we limit it to one vote, you might see support for one or two plummet.

[Zim]

It might depend on how close this poll is. If there's a third poll and only two options on it, I think it'd work better if everyone had to pick only one faction. With three factions it'd kinda suck if you picked faction C because you liked it the best, but noone else picked them and faction A, your least favorite, won by just one or two votes.

If the third poll has three choices I might leave it multiple choice. If anyone voted for all three it would be a non-vote anyway, and that way people could choose their favorite and second favorite.

[Privateerkev]

It might depend on how close this poll is. If there's a third poll and only two options on it, I think it'd work better if everyone had to pick only one faction. With three factions it'd kinda suck if you picked faction C because you liked it the best, but noone else picked them and faction A, your least favorite, won by just one or two votes.

If the third poll has three choices I might leave it multiple choice. If anyone voted for all three it would be a non-vote anyway, and that way people could choose their favorite and second favorite.

Good point

Of the 19 people that voted for at least one of the top 3 factions:

2 voted for all 3

6 voted for 2 of the 3

11 voted for just 1 of those 3

Assuming the 11 vote the same again in a 3 way poll, those 8 who had 2 or 3 picks could easily swing the poll towards 1 faction.

So, if you limit it to 1 vote, you could see a very decisive swing to 1 faction. If you keep it multiple-guess, then it will be more of a horse-race. Which could be interesting.

These are pretty close as it is. It's 9/9/11 right now.

[Ramses II CP]

I say force people to sort themselves out. If you let the fence sitters take all three options we'll end up with a lot of half happy people instead of a few. We've already narrowed the options twice, it's time to finish it off.

[Askthepizzaguy]

Greetings all...

I went with the ERE because they are so challenging and different. It is already a pretty big faction with plenty of room for generals and expansion. It also seems fitting that they would be the successor to the Western Roman Empire.

You still have your heavy infantry, your decent heavy cavalry, but you now also have the advantage of horse archery. Also, having to work to expand your empire and your religion is a plus. Frankly I think being France would be too easy. Not being able to manipulate the Pope and the possibility of having Crusades or Jihads pass near or through our lands will keep us on our toes.

France can be a close second choice, but they are too similar to the HRE and they have too many advantages.

There should still be plenty of voters left out there, so don't be swayed by the temporary ERE lead. Go with what you want.

[AussieGiant]

The mod has already been decided and I think we should stick with that decision or we'll never get started. There was more to mod choice than type of faction anyway.

@AG: the Templar thread is here:http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showthread.php?t=86534

unfortunately most of the pics have been deleted but the roster is still there along with a small description. I can take some screenshots if you are really interested.

EF thanks for the link...pics wont be necessary.

Roster looks very bland, but hey...

As for the poll. I think we need a single vote option for the top 3 or 4 out of this result.

[Zim]

Hard to tell with the lack of pics, but their roster didn't seem too bad to me, at least compared to any western European faction.

Ok, it looks like it will be single vote, top three factions(number four is way too behind to justify including them) for the third poll. I'll wait until this one officially closes (bit over half a day I think) before making the new one.

[TinCow]

Just so people know, I think we should be prepared for another round of faction discussions after the test game is over. It might not be necessary, but it's possible that we could find things in the test game that would change our opinions. Also, it will be useful to have a final and complete set of rules when selecting a faction.

Not saying we'll definitely need another poll/discussion, but it could be possible.

[Zim]

2 1/2 hours to go.

[Northnovas]

Well I threw my in though I am open to any faction other then HRE. I prefer the western factions but thought something like Turkey or the Kiev Rus would be interesting and different.

I see the Templars are quite popular the only caution there with so many players and little land I do not think we could afford armies with the recruitable generals unless we are artificially feeding the treasury. It takes a while for the finances to build up.