U.S. Elections 2008: General Elections -- Analysis and Commentary

[FactionHeir]

There is a difference between partial coverage and full coverage in a plan however.

[Strike For The South]

A quick google search shows that currently only 50 million Americans are without coverage. So either you're stating Obama's plan will cause MORE Americans to be uninsured or you are making up numbers out of your southern hemisphere.

I meant 15 excuse my mistake. I was under the impression that these people would not be covered at all. I could be wrong but I doubt it.

[woad&fangs]

Okay, 15 million is a realistic sounding number. I'll be honest and say that I've never actually looked to hard into Obama or Hillary's healthcare plan so you might be right.

[PanzerJaeger]

Okay, 15 million is a realistic sounding number. I'll be honest and say that I've never actually looked to hard into Obama or Hillary's healthcare plan so you might be right.

You have something in common with most Obama supporters then.

[FactionHeir]

That was brilliant, honestly

[Adrian II]

The score on Obama substance is now 3:0 for Lemur. I tried to do the same for McCain in the other thread, and I'm not even an American but a goldarn foreigner and a Socialist. Got the same non-reaction from others. It doesn't seem to matter. Those who complain the most about the superficiality on the present campaign are the most superficial in their own views and approach.

Meh.

[woad&fangs]

Lowering Costs Through Investment in Electronic Health Information Technology Systems: Most medical records are still stored on paper, which makes it hard to coordinate care, measure quality or reduce medical errors and which costs twice as much as electronic claims. Obama will invest $10 billion a year over the next five years to move the U.S. health care system to broad adoption of standards-based electronic health information systems, including electronic health records, and will phase in requirements for full implementation of health IT. Obama will ensure that patients' privacy is protected.

bolding done by me. While I like most of what I see on his site, this paragraph jumps out as naive and rather stupid. Yes, electronic records will help make it easier to coordinate care and I believe they are a good thing. However, claiming that a $50 billion investment will lower costs just doesn't seem quite right to me. I'm also curious as to how he plans on protecting electronic records in a way that he can ensure a patient's privacy.

However, I still have yet to see McCain's healthcare plan.

[Lemur]

Nuclear nonproliferation was little more than an edited version of a previous bill authored by... none other than Dick Lugar.

PJ, you asked for examples of things Obama has done. I gave some. You declared they were all irrelevant or plagiarized. Whatever, kid.

So I am forced to come to the conclusion that these constant and baseless attacks are more than the inept ramblings of a misinformed individual, but are in actuallity a sad attempt to divert attention from ...

Stop right there. There's no diversion going on. I say what I mean and I mean what I say. If we were in a place that was not the Org, I'd call you exactly what I think you are.

Step back and look at how pathetic you are being. I asked a simple, polite question. My response? "You're a fascist and a racist and you wont vote for him anyway so I don't have to respond!!"

I asked whether you were listening or reloading. Your responses make the answer obvious. Explaining my positions to a person who is in a permanent partisan crouch is beyond unrewarding.

His record is so thin you even had to resort to citing bills he passed in the state legislature!

Yeah, that's just nuts! How dare anyone cite things that happened during the eight years the guys served as a State Senator! That's cheating, that is!

Thats ok though, obviously any criticism of the man reflects deep-seed racism, right Lemur?

I'll certainly consider the source, PJ.

[woad&fangs]

I looked at McCain's plan on his website. Overall I like it, but it seems a lot vaguer than Obama's plan.

[Redleg]

I looked at McCain's plan on his website. Overall I like it, but it seems a lot vaguer than Obama's plan.

The same problem was evident in the election websites of 2004. Politians will rarely put themselves in a position of black and white details this early in the electon. We might see more substance as the election date draws near.

Kind of waiting for the head to head debates. I think the more they have will benefit the American People because it will force both candidates to show their hands on what their policies and course of direction will be if they are elected. We will also be able to take their measure.

[Seamus Fermanagh]

PJ:

Lemur's been responding with a pretty clear set of facts on Obama. You're obviously free to think that Obama's policy stance is not in our collective best interest (I do), but continuing to assert his ephemerality at this juncture is poor argumentation. As Redleg correctly notes, politicos of all stripes don't like to be pinned down much -- the moment you take a stand on something you acquire opponents -- and the media's coverage of him and his fellow campaigners treatment of him did not force him to come out with very much in the way of specifics. That is NOT the same thing as having no record, stance, or accomplishments.

Now, if you'd like to take the time to do a side-by-side on experience with Clinton or McCain, you might make a better case, but just the assertion isn't enough.


Lemur: Please stop addressing the racist issue with PJ, I do not wish to see you on vacation from us here in the Backroom -- you make me think.

[Sasaki Kojiro]

Auschwitz and the way he handled his state senate campagins.

Why are you accusing the man of having no substance when you haven't even done enough research to find that his statement on auschwitch was just him misspeaking: he meant Buchenwald. Your views on him have no substance.

He is not hope or change he is just the same suit with a darker skin tone. Oh well I guess chrisma wins people over more than experince and sound policies. The funny thing is Clinton had a much better plan for health care and Iraq. With Obamas national system 15 million Americans will still be without coverage. That sure fixes allot.

Clinton's plan didn't cover those 15 million. She claimed it did, but her plan just tried to make people who couldn't afford health insurance pay for it. Remember, car insurance is mandatory and huge numbers of americans don't have it. They tried mandatory in MA and lot's of people don't have health insurance. They just accept the fine. It's unenforcable. Clinton's plan is one that all talk and no substance.

His darker skin tone is irrelevant. You seem to be irrationally biased against charisma. Not everyone with charisma is a used car salesman and a liar.

[Sasaki Kojiro]

The score on Obama substance is now 3:0 for Lemur. I tried to do the same for McCain in the other thread, and I'm not even an American but a goldarn foreigner and a Socialist. Got the same non-reaction from others. It doesn't seem to matter. Those who complain the most about the superficiality on the present campaign are the most superficial in their own views and approach.

Meh.

Ironic, isn't it.

[FactionHeir]

Why are you accusing the man of having no substance when you haven't even done enough research to find that his statement on auschwitch was just him misspeaking: he meant Buchenwald.

Actually it also wan't his uncle but his great uncle.
A lot of them "misspeak" or claim to be "misinterpreted" though, so he's in good company with the "same old politics"

[Strike For The South]

Why are you accusing the man of having no substance when you haven't even done enough research to find that his statement on auschwitch was just him misspeaking: he meant Buchenwald. Your views on him have no substance.



Clinton's plan didn't cover those 15 million. She claimed it did, but her plan just tried to make people who couldn't afford health insurance pay for it. Remember, car insurance is mandatory and huge numbers of americans don't have it. They tried mandatory in MA and lot's of people don't have health insurance. They just accept the fine. It's unenforcable. Clinton's plan is one that all talk and no substance.

His darker skin tone is irrelevant. You seem to be irrationally biased against charisma. Not everyone with charisma is a used car salesman and a liar.

Just as long as you realize he is the same old thing. There is nothing new about the man

[Sasaki Kojiro]

Actually it also wan't his uncle but his great uncle.
A lot of them "misspeak" or claim to be "misinterpreted" though, so he's in good company with the "same old politics"

You're right. What nefarious politics. Trying to get away with saying auswitch instead of buchenwald. Good thing we have people like sfts and FactionHeir to see though the lies and dirty politics.

I wonder if the reason he hasn't said much about his policies is that the people that don't like him only ever question whether he's really black and whether he misspoke?

[FactionHeir]

Isn't that the same reaction Clinton and McCain are/were getting?

[Strike For The South]

You're right. What nefarious politics. Trying to get away with saying auswitch instead of buchenwald. Good thing we have people like sfts and FactionHeir to see though the lies and dirty politics.

I wonder if the reason he hasn't said much about his policies is that the people that don't like him only ever question whether he's really black and whether he misspoke?

A harvard educated man would know the difference dont you think? He is just the same old politician. he uses the same smut that the rest of them use. He is not change or hope or different he is just another suit.

[Lemur]

So Strike, since in your view there is no difference between Bush 43 and Obama, what characteristics would qualify as "different" for you?

[Sasaki Kojiro]

Isn't that the same reaction Clinton and McCain are/were getting?

I'm talking about what you are saying, so why are you bring what some "other people" may have said about clinton and McCain into the discussion?

Do you really think it's saying auswitch instead of buchenwald is evidence of a lying politician?

[Geoffrey S]

The only reason those guys are so vague on their policies is because the electorate is too damned lazy to demand clarity. And I'd wager, politicians like it that way and won't make it too hard for each other. Who needs to do mud-slinging nowadays anyway? Partisan bloggers do it for them.

[PanzerJaeger]

Explaining my positions to a person who is in a permanent partisan crouch is beyond unrewarding.

Yep. Preaching to the quire is far more rewarding. I asked you a simple question and your eventual response was laced with personal attacks.

Stop right there. There's no diversion going on. I say what I mean and I mean what I say. If we were in a place that was not the Org, I'd call you exactly what I think you are.

Just say it, the moderators won't bother you. Hell you've already called me racist. If you're not man enough though, why don't you send me a personal message?

I will say that leveling false accusations of racism against me is not simply you being an idiot, it is you being deliberately deceitful.

[Sasaki Kojiro]

A harvard educated man would know the difference dont you think? He is just the same old politician. he uses the same smut that the rest of them use. He is not change or hope or different he is just another suit.

I'm sorry sfts, but at this point your bias should be clear to even you. Step back and reevaluate what you're saying. People say the wrong word in speeches just like they mess up in typing. For example you missed an apostrophe and didn't capitalize when you should have two times. A high school educated man should know better? You're just a lying politician? This is getting silly. Everyone makes typos and errors.

[Strike For The South]

So Strike, since in your view there is no difference between Bush 43 and Obama, what characteristics would qualify as "different" for you?

Both men offer no new soultions for the United States. Obama seems content on riding the populist horse into the ground just like Bush43 did early on. Lemur youre a smart guy yhou know the man offers no real hope in the short or long run. They all jsut talk a bunch of hot air. Americans polotics exploits the dumb lazy and ignornat to the highest degree

[Geoffrey S]

A stagnant, apathetic attitude best described by: , and which is the main reason why elections so often boil down to the best of a bad bunch.

[FactionHeir]

I'm talking about what you are saying, so why are you bring what some "other people" may have said about clinton and McCain into the discussion?

Do you really think it's saying auswitch instead of buchenwald is evidence of a lying politician?

I did not say that this was evidence of a lying politician anywhere now did I?
I said that him saying how his Uncle (when it was his Great Uncle) being among the first American soldiers to liberate Auschwitz (When it was Buchenwald, note 2 misspeaks in the same sentence) was just the same misspeak/misunderstand/misquote that all the other same old politicians he aims to defy are doing.

[PanzerJaeger]

A democrat's compilation of Barack Obama's lies. Some interesting stuff in there...


1.) Selma Got Me Born - LIAR, your parents felt safe enough to have you in 1961 - Selma had no effect on your birth, as Selma was in 1965. (Google ‘Obama Selma’ for his full March 4, 2007 speech and articles about its various untruths.)

2.) Father Was A Goat Herder - LIAR, he was a privileged, well educated youth, who went on to work with the Kenyan Government.

3.) Father Was A Proud Freedom Fighter - LIAR, he was part of one of the most corrupt and violent governments Kenya has ever had.

4.) My Family Has Strong Ties To African Freedom - LIAR, your cousin Raila Odinga has created mass violence in attempting to overturn a legitimate election in 2007, in Kenya . It is the first widespread violence in decades. The current government is pro-American but Odinga wants to overthrow it and establish Muslim Sharia law. Your half-brother, Abongo Obama, is Odinga’s follower. You interrupted your New Hampshire campaigning to speak to Odinga on the phone. Check out this link for verification of that….and for more.

Obama’s cousin Odinga in Kenya ran for president and tried to get Sharia Muslim law in place there. When Odinga lost the elections, his followers have burned Christians’ homes and then burned men, women and children alive in a Christian church where they took shelter. Obama SUPPORTED his cousin before the election process here started. Google Obama and Odinga and see what you get. No one wants to know the truth.

5.) My Grandmother Has Always Been A Christian - LIAR, she does her daily Salat prayers at 5 AM according to her own interviews. Not to mention, Christianity wouldn’t allow her to have been one of 14 wives to 1 man.

6.) My Name is African Swahili - LIAR, your name is Arabic and ‘Baraka’ (from which Barack came) means ‘blessed’ in that language. Hussein is also Arabic and so is Obama.
Barack Hussein Obama is not half black. If elected, he would be the first Arab-American President, not the first black President. Barack Hussein Obama is 50% Caucasian from his mother’s side and 43.75% Arabic and 6.25% African Negro from his father’s side. While Barack Hussein Obama’s father was from Kenya , his father’s family was mainly Arabs. Barack Hussein Obama’s father was only 12.5% African Negro and 87.5% Arab (his father’s birth certificate even states he’s Arab, not African Negro). From
this link.

7.) I Never Practiced Islam - LIAR, you practiced it daily at school, where you were registered as a Muslim and kept that faith for 31 years,until your wife made you change, so you could run for office.
4-3-08 Article “Obama was ‘quite religious in islam’” This link.

8.) My School In Indonesia Was Christian - LIAR, you were registered as Muslim there and got in trouble in Koranic Studies for making faces (check your own book).
February 28, 2008.
Kristoff from the New York Times a year ago:

Mr. Obama recalled the opening lines of the Arabic call to prayer, reciting them with a first-rate accent. In a remark that seemed delightfully uncalculated (it’ll give Alabama voters heart attacks), Mr. Obama described the call to prayer as “one of the prettiest sounds on Earth at sunset.”
This is just one example of what Pamela is talking about when she says “Obama’s narrative is being altered, enhanced and manipulated to whitewash troubling facts.”

9.) I Was Fluent In Indonesian - LIAR, not one teacher says you could speak the language.

10.) Because I Lived In Indonesia , I Have More Foreign Experience - LIAR, you were there from the ages of 6 to 10, and couldn’t even speak the language. What did you learn, how to study the Koran and watch cartoons?

11.) I Am Stronger On Foreign Affairs - LIAR, except for Africa (surprise) and the Middle East (bigger surprise), you have never been anywhere else on the planet and thus have NO experience with our closest allies.

12.) I Blame My Early Drug Use On Ethnic Confusion - LIAR, you were quite content in high school to be Barry Obama, no mention of Kenya and no mention of struggle to identify - your classmates said you were just fine.

13.) An Ebony Article Moved Me To Run For Office - LIAR, Ebony has yet to find the article you mention in your book. It doesn’t, and never did, exist.

14.) A Life Magazine Article Changed My Outlook On Life - LIAR, Life has yet to find the article you mention in your book. It doesn’t, and never did, exist.

15.) I Won’t Run On A National Ticket In ‘08 - LIAR, here you are, despite saying, live on TV, that you would not have enough experience by then, and you are all about having experience first.

16.) Present Votes Are Common In Illinois - LIAR, they are common for YOU, but not many others have 130 NO VOTES.

17.) Oops, I Misvoted - LIAR, only when caught by church groups and democrats, did you beg to change your misvote.

18.) I Was A Professor Of Law - LIAR, you were a senior lecturer ON LEAVE.

19.) I Was A Constitutional Lawyer - LIAR, you were a senior lecturer ON LEAVE.

20.) Without Me, There Would Be No Ethics Bill - LIAR, you didn’t write it,introduce it, change it, or create it.

21.) The Ethics Bill Was Hard To Pass - LIAR, it took just 14 days from start to finish.

22.) I Wrote A Tough Nuclear Bill - LIAR, your bill was rejected by your own party for its pandering and lack of all regulation - mainly because of your Nuclear Donor, Exelon, from which David Axelrod came.

23.) I Have Released My State Records - LIAR, as of March, 2008, state bills you sponsored or voted for have yet to be released, exposing all the special interests pork hidden within.

24.) I Took On The Asbestos Altgeld Gardens Mess - LIAR, you were part of a large group of people who remedied Altgeld Gardens . You failed to mention anyone else but yourself, in your books.

25.) My Economics Bill Will Help America - LIAR, your 111 economic policies were just combined into a proposal which lost 99-0, and even YOU voted against your own bill.

26.) I Have Been A Bold Leader In Illinois - LIAR, even your own supporters claim to have not seen BOLD action on your part.

27.) I Passed 26 Of My Own Bills In One Year - LIAR, they were not YOUR bills, but rather handed to you, after their creation by a fellow Senator, to assist you in a future bid for higher office.

28.) No One Contacted Canada About NAFTA - LIAR, the Canadian Government issued the names and a memo of the conversation your campaign had with them.

29.) I Am Tough On Terrorism - LIAR, you missed the Iran Resolution vote on terrorism and your good friend Ali Abunimah supports the destruction of Israel .

30.) I Am Not Acting As President Yet - LIAR, after the NAFTA Memo, a dead terrorist in the FARC, in Colombia, was found with a letter stating how you and he were working together on getting FARC recognized officially.

31.) I Didn’t Run Ads In Florida - LIAR, you allowed national ads to run 8-12 times per day for two weeks - and you still lost.

32.) I Won Michigan - LIAR, no you didn’t.

33.) I won Nevada - LIAR, no you did not.

34.) I Want All Votes To Count - LIAR, you said let the delegates decide.

35.) I Want Americans To Decide - LIAR, you prefer caucuses that limit the vote, confuse the voters, force a public vote, and only operate during small windows of time.

36.) I passed 900 Bills in the State Senate - LIAR, you passed 26, most of which you didn’t write yourself.

37.) My Campaign Was Extorted By A Friend - LIAR, that friend is threatening to sue if you do not stop saying this. (Obama has now stopped saying this.)

38.) I Believe In Fairness, Not Tactics - LIAR, you used tactics to eliminate Alice Palmer from running against you.

39.) I Don’t Take PAC Money - LIAR, you take loads of it.

40.) I don’t Have Lobbysists - LIAR, you have over 47 lobbyists, and counting.

41.) My Campaign Had Nothing To Do With The 1984 Ad - LIAR, your own campaign worker made the ad on his Apple in one afternoon.

42.) My Campaign Never Took Over MySpace - LIAR, Tom, who started MySpace issued a warning about this advertising to MySpace clients.

43.) I Inspire People With My Words - LIAR, you inspire people with other people’s words.

44.) I Have Passed Bills In The U.S. Senate - LIAR, you have passed A BILL in the U.S. Senate - for Africa, which shows YOUR priorities.

45.) I Have Always Been Against Iraq - LIAR, you weren’t in office to vote against it AND you have voted to fund it every single time, unlike Kucinich, who seems to be out gutting you Obama. You also seem to be stepping back from your departure date - AGAIN.

46.) I Have Always Supported Universal Health Care - LIAR, your plan leaves us all to pay for the 15,000,000 who don’t have to buy it.

[Xiahou]

I still haven't waded thru the old thread to find the article about Obama being handed sponsorship of bills in IL, but here's a WaPo story about Obama's attempts to take top billing for legislation in the US senate that he had little to do with:

After weeks of arduous negotiations, on April 6, 2006, a bipartisan group of senators burst out of the "President's Room," just off the Senate chamber, with a deal on new immigration policy.

As the half-dozen senators -- including John McCain (R-Ariz.) and Edward M. Kennedy (D-Mass.) -- headed to announce their plan, they met Sen. Barack Obama (D-Ill.), who made a request common when Capitol Hill news conferences are in the offing: "Hey, guys, can I come along?" And when Obama went before the microphones, he was generous with his list of senators to congratulate -- a list that included himself.

"I want to cite Lindsey Graham, Sam Brownback, Mel Martinez, Ken Salazar, myself, Dick Durbin, Joe Lieberman . . . who've actually had to wake up early to try to hammer this stuff out," he said.

To Senate staff members, who had been arriving for 7 a.m. negotiating sessions for weeks, it was a galling moment. Those morning sessions had attracted just three to four senators a side, Sen. Arlen Specter (R-Pa.) recalled, each deeply involved in the issue. Obama was not one of them. But in a presidential contest involving three sitting senators, embellishment of legislative records may be an inevitability, Specter said with a shrug.

Unlike governors, business leaders or vice presidents, senators -- the last to win the presidency was John F. Kennedy in 1960 -- are not executives. They cannot be held to account for the state of their states, their companies or their administrations. What they do have is the mark they leave on the nation's laws -- and in Obama's brief three-year tenure, as well as Sen. Hillary Rodham Clinton's seven-year hitch, those marks are far from indelible.

"It's not an unusual matter for senators to take a little extra credit," Specter said.

-snip-

Immigration is a case in point for Obama, but not the only one. In 2007, after the first comprehensive immigration bill had died, the senators were back at it, and again, Obama was notably absent, staffers and senators said. At one meeting, three key negotiators recalled, he entered late and raised a number of questions about the bill's employment verification system. Kennedy and Specter both rebuked him, saying that the issue had already been resolved and that he was coming late to the discussion. Kennedy dressed him down, according to witnesses, and Obama left shortly thereafter.

"Senator Obama came in late, brought up issues that had been hashed and rehashed," Specter recalled. "He didn't stay long."

Just this week, as the financial markets were roiling in the wake of the Bear Stearns collapse, Obama made another claim that was greeted with disbelief in some corners of Capitol Hill. On March 13, Dodd, the chairman of the Senate Banking Committee, and Rep. Barney Frank (D-Mass.), chairman of the House Financial Services Committee, unveiled legislative proposals to allow the Federal Housing Administration to guarantee new loans from banks willing to help homeowners in or approaching foreclosure. Obama and Clinton were in Washington for a day-long round of budget voting, but neither appeared at the housing news conference.

Yet Obama on Monday appeared to seek top billing on Dodd's proposal.

"At this moment, we must come together and act to address the housing crisis that set this downturn in motion and continues to eat away at the public's confidence in the market," Obama said. "We should pass the legislation I put forward with my colleague Chris Dodd to create meaningful incentives for lenders to buy or refinance existing mortgages so that Americans facing foreclosure can keep their homes."

Dodd did say that Obama supported the bill, as does Clinton. But he could not offer pride of authorship to the candidate he wants to see in the White House next year.

"I've talked to him about it at some length," Dodd said. "When Senator Obama was there for that full day of voting, we had long conversations about it. He had excellent questions and decided to support it."

-Edit: Ok, I went thru the old thread and found the story- it even alleges the vaunted video taped confessions bill was handed to him: Obama and Me

Jones appointed Obama sponsor of virtually every high-profile piece of legislation, angering many rank-and-file state legislators who had more seniority than Obama and had spent years championing the bills.

"I took all the beatings and insults and endured all the racist comments over the years from nasty Republican committee chairmen," State Senator Rickey Hendon, the original sponsor of landmark racial profiling and videotaped confession legislation yanked away by Jones and given to Obama, complained to me at the time. "Barack didn't have to endure any of it, yet, in the end, he got all the credit.

"I don't consider it bill jacking," Hendon told me. "But no one wants to carry the ball 99 yards all the way to the one-yard line, and then give it to the halfback who gets all the credit and the stats in the record book."

[PanzerJaeger]

hmm..

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lI77cU3jsFs

[CountArach]

Crap

And that makes McCain the better choice, how?