Surprisingly bad units

[konny]

These guys are quite possibly the worst unit I have ever used. When it says Phalanx in the name, I expect them to use a Phalanx, especially when it says they have 'longer spears', and use 'the latest technology'. Lost Arpi because of these.

Historicaly they used longer spears than the Hoplites, what would be the short_pike. Unfortuantly this one happenes to be shorter than the light_spear the Hoplites use in EB. There are some ways to make them a bit more usefull:

- Give them the phalanx ability and the long_pike and make them a unit like the Makedonian phalanx. That wouldn't be historical correct because the Maks actually used a spear even longer than that of the Iphikratians.

- Give them the same stats as Peltasts in armour and defense (in fact they are Peltasts armed with spears instead of javelins), keep the upkeep to that of the Hoplites but raise the number of men per unit Iphikratians to 200 instead of 160 to represent them being better available than classical Hoplites (Iphikratians would be mercenaries, while Hoplites would be middle-class militia). A "modern" Greek army would then be lots of Iphikratians with some Peltasts, no Hoplites.

[Dumbass]

I find that Bruttian Infantry tend to die pretty quickly in battles, much quicker than hastati or hastati Samnitici. They could come under the catagory of surprisingly bad.

Also Gaeroas are terrible.

[Rodrico Stak]

I find that Bruttian Infantry tend to die pretty quickly in battles, much quicker than hastati or hastati Samnitici. They could come under the catagory of surprisingly bad.

I don't agree with that. I used Bruttian Infantry extensively to fight rebels as the Romani (built a level 4 government in Taras), and they did more damage than the Hoplitai who were part of the same army.

[gamegeek2]

Frankly, I actually like Theurophoroi, as they're basically Hoplites with javelins. Sure, they're not as resilient as hoplites, but have good stamina and beat up most things with the same cost. Replace them with Thorakitai if you can, but I like having 1-2 in my Epeirote fullstax to deal with weaker units and to flank without wasting much stamina. They're consistent, reliable, and efficient, especially if you're on a budget.

Gaeroas are actually decent spam-troops for your frontier provinces as Rome and some other factions. However, like many early barbarian troops, they're extremely vulnerable to missiles, and if they're flanked, they will die. They're good at defending cities if you have no other options.

[SwissBarbar]

Thrakian Prodromoi are available in the same regions as Thessalians, and are much better value for money. Same impact on charge, similar melee ability (though if you're leaving your cavalry in melee, you're doing something wrong).

yes, but they are still not suprisingly bad, they were just used the wrong way ^^

[QuintusSertorius]

yes, but they are still not suprisingly bad, they were just used the wrong way ^^

Given they're poorer than lighter cavalry in precisely the role they're supposed to be doing (shock charge to rear of engaged infantry), that's surprisingly bad.

[Centurio Nixalsverdrus]

Given they're poorer than lighter cavalry in precisely the role they're supposed to be doing (shock charge to rear of engaged infantry), that's surprisingly bad.

No they are not. Thessalians last longer in melee.

You could be a surprisingly bad general, maybe that's the reason for your problems.

[QuintusSertorius]

No they are not. Thessalians last longer in melee.

You could be a surprisingly bad general, maybe that's the reason for your problems.

If you're wasting your cavalry in melee, then I'd say that's bad generalship. That's what spearmen are for, to butcher enemy cavalry stupid enough to stay still.

[Centurio Nixalsverdrus]

If you want to annihilate a unit of slingers for example, do you really re-charge your cavalry at them? In such a case the negative effect of the horsies getting tired and inevitably losing men in the retreat is worse than the few casualties taken for letting them stay in melee. Of course you can't run Thessalians headlong into a wall of spears. You can't do that with Hetairoi or Kataphraktoi either. Thessalians are just in the middle between Hetairoi and Prodromoi.

[QuintusSertorius]

If you want to annihilate a unit of slingers for example, do you really re-charge your cavalry at them? In such a case the negative effect of the horsies getting tired and inevitably losing men in the retreat is worse than the few casualties taken for letting them stay in melee. Of course you can't run Thessalians headlong into a wall of spears. You can't do that with Hetairoi or Kataphraktoi either. Thessalians are just in the middle between Hetairoi and Prodromoi.

No, I've got slingers and archers to annihilate enemy slingers with. That's the kind of target my long-rangers are tasked with. Indeed if I see slingers, they get the focus of my slingers like nothing else, since all other enemy ranged troops are relatively harmless for my main line.

[Aemilius Paulus]

Indeed if I see slingers, they get the focus of my slingers like nothing else, since all other enemy ranged troops are relatively harmless for my main line.

Definitely so. It's surprising how much a humble unit of slingers can ruin a battle for you. Being the cheapest unit in EB, they are also one of the most effective. Running them down with cavalry is not always the best option, nor is it always possible to do so. In general, EB cavalry is not good for taking on an entire unit by themselves and destroying the unit in melee, even if it is a missile unit. I normally use archers to target enemy slingers, since the archers I hire have longer-range weapons than the slingers. Cretan archers and many other composite-bow archers have much longer range that allows them to decimate the slingers while keeping away from their murderous volleys of bullets. If you are using your own slingers for counter-fire, be careful, the enemy have the same range and are likely to make you bleed just as much.

[LordCurlyton]

Maybe over my time of playing EB I've had a different EDU set, but the fact that Thessalians are getting ragged on is odd to me. They WILL beat Traikioi Prodromoi 1:1, I can attest to that, but it will hurt. Both units are badass, in any case. Thessalians also can last a long time in melee and will break no/low-armor missile units on their own if you choose to waste them for such. I loved using Thessies as FM killers, esp once they chevroned. Since you shouldn't be charging any elite infantry with cav short of catas IMO (though lancer types like Prodromoi do for a poor man's solution) the Thessies should be more then able to hold in a melee against the medium and lesser infantry, esp if they do a proper flank assault.
As for slingers, love 'em, but I don't worry about them as long as I have a balanced army. Either I'll get some light cav around to slice and dice or I will pound them with my protedcted archers (not slingers) and let my heavy inf take the occasional casualty from slinger fire. MY slingers target heavy cav/FM, heavy inf, and HA's in that order. Unless I flank with the slingers phalanxes and large shields are generally avoided. Love getting them behind phalanxes though.
I can't say as I've ever met a truly surprisingly bad unit, though some have not lived up to the hype I read on the forums. Thraikioi Peltasti come to mind, as do Gaesetae, which are frankly NOT THAT HARD TO KILL if you are smart about it. The Thraikes, well, the hype made them to be an uber-peltast. As I found it to be, they are better than the standard variety, but not by that much. In fact, they seemed to take cavalry charges worse than normal peltasts (yes, i know, shouldn't be letting it happen but sometimes you just gotta line 'em up and take the licks when you haven't had the chance to refill the army) though they are a notch above in melee ability. Nothing to write home about but i do recruit them in both regular and merc form when I in those areas. I just prefer the standard peltast's vast recruitment area.
And that is the best part of EB; you can call a unit bad if you want but that's mainly because it doesn't fit your generalship style. And those badass units tend to be hard to recruit whereas main units are wide in area. It all balances out. I will go with the anti-elephant crowd though. Even the armored ones don't faze me since I'll just rout the rest of their army first and gang bang the eles. And Velites are just plain depressing for me; I'll hire peltasts instead.

[QuintusSertorius]

There are some objectively bad units in this thread. If they can't perform in the role they're designed for, they're bad. Doesn't matter that there might be some kind of exploit or trick you can use to make them effective.

[satalexton]

sometimes they're gd for their cheapness, quantity is a quality of it's own =3

[Onehandstan]

Appea Gaedotos may not be particularly expensive but they really don't live up to their stat line.

[Centurio Nixalsverdrus]

No, I've got slingers and archers to annihilate enemy slingers with. That's the kind of target my long-rangers are tasked with. Indeed if I see slingers, they get the focus of my slingers like nothing else, since all other enemy ranged troops are relatively harmless for my main line.

Yes I've got archers to annihilate enemy slingers with in the first place. But not in that particular army with that I was marching against Kyrene, the odd left Ptolemaioi settlement, whereas the rest of the army (with all my archers) had to do more serious stuff. And indeed Thessalians are an awesome cavalry force.

Can Epeiros recruit Thessalikoi?

[QuintusSertorius]

Yes I've got archers to annihilate enemy slingers with in the first place. But not in that particular army with that I was marching against Kyrene, the odd left Ptolemaioi settlement, whereas the rest of the army (with all my archers) had to do more serious stuff. And indeed Thessalians are an awesome cavalry force.

Can Epeiros recruit Thessalikoi?

No idea, I'm outside of homeland provinces anyway, so they're mercenary-only.

[Centurio Nixalsverdrus]

I had an interesting battle tonight. My cavalry forces were 110 Hetairoi, including bodyguards, 95 Thessalians and 85 Thraikioi Prodromoi. The enemy's cavalry were 65 Hetairoi bodyguards, 100 Hippeis Hellenikoi and 100 ordinary Prodromoi. I took the offensive and charged the enemy Prodromoi with my Thracians. I thought it would be an easy win, since my Thracians are 2 points better statwise in both attack and defense. Both forces were not tired. But the enemy slaughtered all my Thraikioi! I was really shocked, I only managed to kill approx. 40 of them.

In the meantime my Thessalians had attacked their Hippeis. Taking about 5 losses, they killed all the Hippeis (with help of some Hetairoi). They were exhausted, but I let them hurry and line up again to help out the Thraikians. But it was too late. The enemy Prodromoi had already routed my Thraikians and chased them down. I told my Thessalians to attack them nevertheless, and guess... They completely annihilated the foe, taking another 2 losses only. Without help of some Hetairoi. Yeah, these are Thessalians.

Will provide screenshots if you don't believe it.

[teh1337tim]

thessalians are bad ass if used properly
i repeat they are NOT shock calvalry that will row up the dam battleline!!
leave hetairo and true heavy calv for that
hehe ur thraikens got ahnialateD? hahaha too bad :P always got more calv xD

[NeoSpartan]

Here are some units I find a bit underpowered



Brihentin



For a supposed shock cavalry I consider them weak. Dies quickly in melee. OK, I just stated above that cavalry is not for melee...

BULL*******!

When getting them into a melee vs lightly armored troops Alt+click. So the pull out them big old swords with .225 lethality and 10 attack value.

When getting them into a melee vs heavily armored troops click. Their short spears are AP and they use them at a decently fast rate.

They give a decent fight to much heavier cavarly (catas et al). Plus they are WAY cheaper.

[QuintusSertorius]

thessalians are bad ass if used properly
i repeat they are NOT shock calvalry that will row up the dam battleline!!
leave hetairo and true heavy calv for that
hehe ur thraikens got ahnialateD? hahaha too bad :P always got more calv xD

If they're not shock cavalry, what's the point in them? That's what heavy cavalry is for.

Even moreso when medium cavalry like Thrakian Prodromoi (or even lights like Curepos) can perform admirably in that very role.

[Celtic_Punk]

Quintus, I am in TOTAL agreement with you. My Spartan campaign was drumming along well, I had united the Ionia, Lesbos, Crete, Chalkis, and the pelopenese. Moving up to delphi, i found i was without cavalry and this was a dire problem, as i needed a mobile force to combat the threat of flanking makedonian cavalry. I read thessalians were bitchin' in most of my history books on Greek warfare. This simply was not the case. By the second charge they would be either winded or tired. what bloody use is that to me? I pressed on without changing my army composition and in a crucial battle south of pella with the majority of Greek and Makedonian forces taking part they really let me down.

Makedonia had 2 fullstacks each with a FM, I had one composed of 1FM(non spartan bodyguards) 1 wing of Thessalonians, 3 spartans, 4 classic hoplites and a unit of creten archers.

I destroyed the first stack with negligible casualties, I put a unit of spartans in my centre and they tore a hole through their phalanx and caused total chaos up their line. My thessalians charged the gap got through with 4 casualties and i brought them round and smashed their right (my left) rear flank. i rinsed repeated on the left flank. they were very tired by this point, but their work had been already done and the entire army was put into flight. each hoplite unit took only a handful of casualties and only the centre spartans took 2 casualties. Had the spartans not caused such hell the engagement would have taken a larger toll and those thessalians would have had to fight much longer.

I formed up and began marching towards the 2nd army, we met halfway between the first engagement and the edge of the map. I attmepted the same tactic as they had the same army pretty much except they had shittier phalanx troops. the cretans finished up their ammo and did a littlebit of damage. lines met up, and we were winning, but this time no punch through the centre. I decided to flank since his FM was trying to push through to the left of the centre spartans. the thessalians numbering 92 men (whom rested back to fresh) moved round the right and smashed into their left (our right) rear flank and were decimated. the levy phalangites were tired and were wavering, numbering less than 200 men. I pulled them out after i saw the first 10 go down, in their retreat they lost another 15 or so. Makedonia's FM withdrew from the line and as i tried to save my cavalry they caught up with them because they were so freakin tired and were butchered without killing a single man. the FM then pulled a flanking move and hammered my right flank, which consequentially collapsed. the spartans (this battle actually restored my faith in them) in the centre held as they got surrounded, and i moved the left flank ones and my FM to the right side and held the makeonians in a V shape with the centre spartans on the point. the rest of the classical hoplites broke and my FM and spartans were surrounded. my FM was was killed and the rest fought on to the death.

thessalian cavalry can kiss my shiney gaelic ass.

i also hearby retract what i said a few weeks back about Spartan Hoplites.

EDIT: Quintus what is the best Greek/Makedonian medium cavalry force that I can recruit. as i stated earlier i need someone who can kill makedonian cavalry, or at least hold their own.

[QuintusSertorius]

EDIT: Quintus what is the best Greek/Makedonian medium cavalry force that I can recruit. as i stated earlier i need someone who can kill makedonian cavalry, or at least hold their own.

Truth be told, the late Makedonian FMs are tanks. You're best avoiding putting any horse near them at all, and focusing on killing them with spearmen.

If you must get in close, the only thing you can do is get some cavalry who are good with their swords, because the AI is almost always too stupid to switch from the primary lance. That means you'll kill them much faster. I've watched the much weaker Epirote Mossolon Agema bodyguard butcher a larger group of Makedonian Hetairoi bodyguard just because I was using swords and they were still using lances. However I don't think I've faced their heavier, reformed ones.

As to what cavalry is there, not a lot to be honest. Thrakian Prodromoi are around, but they're not as great in melee. You could always just swamp them with Illyrian Hippeis - put two units of them on one FM.

Can you recruit Lonchophoroi? They're medium-heavies and have AP swords. Failing that, get a level 5 regional barracks and recruit Hellenistic Mercenary Generals. They're pretty tough, and decent stamina.

[Celtic_Punk]

hmmm would recruiting merc generals be historically accurate?


new epic fail unit- Casse chariots and their first skirmisher cavalry. totally useless at everything. Chariots have their uses but more times than not, they feck everything up. both are hellishly expensive!

[QuintusSertorius]

hmmm would recruiting merc generals be historically accurate?

They're a specifically Greek unit, a pressure valve for noblemen with nothing to do. I'd say they are.

[Fondor_Yards]

BULL*******!

When getting them into a melee vs lightly armored troops Alt+click. So the pull out them big old swords with .225 lethality and 10 attack value.

When getting them into a melee vs heavily armored troops click. Their short spears are AP and they use them at a decently fast rate.

They give a decent fight to much heavier cavarly (catas et al). Plus they are WAY cheaper.

The reason I see most people not liking Brihentin is because they think they will be elite heavy cavalry like their description says, use them like that and are disappointed. But look at their stats, and they are more like very heavy medium cavalry*if there is such a thing*. Think of them and use them like you would medium cavalry, and you won't be disappointed *at least I'm not.* Also he said they were "a bit underpowered," not that they sucked.

Truth be told, the late Makedonian FMs are tanks.

Hm? The only Successor faction to get reformed bodyguards is Baktria. You don't have to worry about them getting even heavier bodyguards.

thessalians are bad ass if used properly
i repeat they are NOT shock calvalry that will row up the dam battleline!!
leave hetairo and true heavy calv for that
hehe ur thraikens got ahnialateD? hahaha too bad :P always got more calv xD

Yea, they kinda are shock cavalry, their job in battle is/was to charge the enemy's flank to route them. If that's not shock cavalry I don't know what is. And how is that last line helpful in the least?



Also to Centurio Nixalsverdrus: Yes Epeiros can recruit them too.

[QuintusSertorius]

Hm? The only Successor faction to get reformed bodyguards is Baktria. You don't have to worry about them getting even heavier bodyguards.

In that case, Makedonian ones are easily beaten if you've got reasonably well-armoured, sword-armed cavalry. Because I've managed that one time and again with the much lighter Epirote bodyguard. Course having a lance-armed unit who can charge in and out of the melee while the sword-cavalry pin them in place helps, too. Generally though, I let them whittle their numbers down charging pointlessly against my lines first.

[Centurio Nixalsverdrus]

LOL. It's quite surprising how the benefits of Thessalian Cavalry reveal themselves to the one but not to the other. Quintus, you never really used Thessalian Cavalry. At best you hired a single mercenary unit without any upgrades or experience (logically, cause you don't own Thessalia in your game I presume) and compared it to your battle hardened fully chevroned Thraikioi. You think that Makedonians get another type of bodyguard unit. It's pointless to further discuss that matter with you cause obviously you don't have any significant knowledge about Hellenistic Cavalry in EB. You are the Roman guy, why not just stick to them Romans?

[Fondor_Yards]

Erm, if you look at his sig you'd see his last 2 campaigns are as Eperios...

[Centurio Nixalsverdrus]

Erm, if you look at his sig you'd see his last 2 campaigns are as Eperios...

"Epeiros as Pergamon", to be precise.